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EVE-Search ForumWatch http://eve-search.com/ The alternative EVE-Online Forum browser. en-us Sun, 19 May 2013 00:00:00 +0000 EVE-Search RSS Module v1.1 chribba@evemail <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Tellenta]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1204403#post1204403
Well anyways, the "most dangerous" areas in eve would be different depending where you go and what you are in.

It's more a list of very specific systems in 0.0, low, and high sec areas due to them being choke points and traditional camp spots.

A significant number of 0.0 systems are low threat, as is low and high security. I've been "blind jumping" through gates for years now due to that fact with only a few instances of negative effect.

This debate basically boils down to the desire of some pilots to think they are better than others because they live in location A and perform task B. When in actual effect the person with the most balls is the hulk pilot that mines during hulkageddon not the numpty living in 0.0 feeling bad ass because he survives in an area that barely registers on the "number of pilots in space in 24 hours" unless his alliance gets together to do something, or the guy living in lowsec looking for a fight who gets aggravated because every system he goes to people are chilling out in station not giving a damn. Or the weirdo in wormholes thinking he's all bad ass because there is no local, but in effect he collapsed all the entry holes and is only in a vague sense of danger.

If we are going to go by the principle that a place is dangerous because something bad might happen when you least expect it highsec wins hands down because there it's crowded people that you don't know surround you, and all it takes is someone bored enough to do something for the lulz to change the safety cushion.]]> Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:54:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16182160 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Apolyon I]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1204268#post1204268 Kuehnelt wrote:

Apolyon I wrote:

make it to J100549, cookies waiting for you

Sweet! I'll right-click set dest... oh. Huh. Nevermind. You probably think of this protective mechanic in terms of how scary it is to leave your private server and fly through "less dangerous" low/null to get to a trade hub.

Quote:

yes indeed you're in jump range of wh when you jump and so is your enemy. plus you will get polarized which stop you from jumping again for 4 minutes

polarization is directional. You can immediately jump back.

if you jump forth and back, you get polarized for 4' and you have no where else you can run.

don't talk about stuff you don't know]]> Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:25:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16181939 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by CCP Phantom]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1204198#post1204198 Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:14:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16181998 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Gogela]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1198957#post1198957 Apolyon I wrote:

Gogela wrote:

My gut reaction was to say lowsec... but the truth is there is one specific region you can go to in EvE that is really a trial by fire. A friend of mine told me something about 5 years ago and to this day I think it holds true:

"If you can make it in Fountain you can make it anywhere in EvE"

I like cookies! Who doesn't like cookies?! I'll keep my eyes open... any way I can get a BM to a WH entrance? Big smile

]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 20:53:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16177191 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Cipher Jones]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1197380#post1197380 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 16:33:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16175724 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Justice Comes]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1197112#post1197112 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 15:46:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16175444 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Qvar Dar'Zanar]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1196310#post1196310
Yeah people not understanding the risks of high-sec, blah blah. I've never been suicide ganked, and I used to spend A LOT of time autopiloting.
]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 13:35:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16174684 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Jorma Morkkis]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1196190#post1196190
Nullsec dangerous?
O'really?]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 13:08:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16174581 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Jonah Gravenstein]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1196043#post1196043
anywhere you leave the POS or station is dangerous.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 12:35:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16174465 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Lt Angus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194973#post1194973 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 09:12:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173373 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Solstice Project]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194761#post1194761 ]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:03:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173211 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Kuehnelt]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194717#post1194717 Apolyon I wrote:

make it to J100549, cookies waiting for you

Quote:

yes indeed you're in jump range of wh when you jump and so is your enemy. plus you will get polarized which stop you from jumping again for 4 minutes

polarization is directional. You can immediately jump back.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:46:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173152 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Francisco Bizzaro]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194710#post1194710
For many people, this seems to be high sec.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:44:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173160 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Josef Djugashvilis]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194706#post1194706 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:43:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173161 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Simi Kusoni]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194627#post1194627 Nova Fox wrote:

I think high sec is the most dangeorus becuase you have no idea who is going to kill you until its too late.

The difference of course being that in high sec the answer to who is going to kill me is usually "no one". Only idiots in expensive untanked ships die in high sec. Occasionally idiots with war decs who forgot to drop corp, but that's getting rarer.

Everywhere else in Eve its "everyone who gets a chance to".

Also, as to the idiot claiming jita is dangerous due to the number of pod kills:

A) People self destruct or shoot pods to fast travel.
B) Danger on a personal level is statistics based. If a system has on average 10 people in it, and 5 have died in the last 30 minutes, it is for an individual more dangerous than a system with 1,000 players, of whom only 100 have died.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:12:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173040 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Apolyon I]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194609#post1194609 Gogela wrote:

make it to J100549, cookies waiting for you

back to topic, wh is the most dangerous.

yes indeed you're in jump range of wh when you jump and so is your enemy. plus you will get polarized which stop you from jumping again for 4 minutes]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:06:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173054 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Hroya]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194605#post1194605
]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:05:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173058 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Tobiaz]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194596#post1194596 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:02:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173016 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Nova Fox]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194538#post1194538 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 06:46:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173000 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Tanya Powers]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194535#post1194535
My banker's wife when she's drunk and asks me to take her home. Twisted

My banker when he thinks he's my buddy Roll

WH space

High sec

Low sec

Null sec

]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 06:45:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16173005 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Simi Kusoni]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194513#post1194513
The Forums

1. We have Scooter Kondur
2. Everyone wants you dead
3. Threads like this.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 06:38:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172950 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Gogela]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194304#post1194304
"If you can make it in Fountain you can make it anywhere in EvE"]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 05:24:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172772 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Lola Humpsalot]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194216#post1194216 Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

oops my bad it is opinion. Yeah OPINION wise everyone thinks low and null are scarier

Luba Cibre wrote:

Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

Highsec... look at the number of pod kills. Last I looked there were more pod kills in Jita than any one system in 0.0

Pure numbers won't help you.
You need a Jumps per Kill Ratio to define danger.

By your logic the biggest trade hub would be in nullsec... idiot

Jita dangerous, djeez....]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 04:45:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172682 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Knot'Kul Sun]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194215#post1194215 lowsecs like thinking you might get buttsecksed
nulls like knowing youre gonna get buttsecksed at some point for sure, just not sure when

its all about tolerance of anticipation

i like my ********* to be a suprise]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 04:44:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172684 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Bane Necran]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194172#post1194172 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 04:28:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172627 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Nicolo da'Vicenza]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194123#post1194123 Bane Necran wrote:

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

go set your bestower's autopilot into curse instead of jita
see how safe it is

The only thing remotely hard about 0.0 is getting there. We're talking about being in these places.

haha okay
go take a wormhole over to NPC space
dock up
reship to a hauler and start flying blind around syndicate or Stain or whatever, exactly like you would in highsec, then get back to me on how safe it is.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 04:07:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172581 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Bane Necran]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194112#post1194112 Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

go set your bestower's autopilot into curse instead of jita
see how safe it is

The only thing remotely hard about 0.0 is getting there. We're talking about being in these places.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 04:02:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172590 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Nicolo da'Vicenza]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194078#post1194078 Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

npc nullsec
then hostile nullsec
then lowsec
then w-space
then blue nullsec
then highsec

stairs are dangerous to retards too, that doesn't mean stairs are the most dangerous thing ever

right ok... pretend land... good to know, you pretend those kills dont happen and have fun with that I guess lol

go set your bestower's autopilot into curse instead of jita
see how safe it is]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 03:45:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172542 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Sigurd Sig Hansen]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194043#post1194043 Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

npc nullsec
then hostile nullsec
then lowsec
then w-space
then blue nullsec
then highsec

stairs are dangerous to retards too, that doesn't mean stairs are the most dangerous thing ever

right ok... pretend land... good to know, you pretend those kills dont happen and have fun with that I guess lol]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 03:31:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172482 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Nicolo da'Vicenza]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1194021#post1194021 Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

npc nullsec
then hostile nullsec
then lowsec
then w-space
then blue nullsec
then highsec

stairs are dangerous to retards too, that doesn't mean stairs are the most dangerous thing ever]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 03:23:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172503 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Apolyon I]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193805#post1193805 Kuehnelt wrote:

Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

have you ever live in wh???]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 02:10:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172266 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Kuehnelt]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193760#post1193760 Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

More people drown in water than burn in lava. Which would you rather be around?

Moving on from that, I'd rank w-space the least dangerous of all of Eve, for these reasons:

1. It's desolate.
2. After you jump through a wormhole, you're within jump range of the wormhole.
3. It's so desolate, people who live in w-space for months can still advocate 'no local intel' for null.
4. It's (with some qualifications) randomly available. There aren't relatively terrifying border systems that attract campers.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 01:53:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172248 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by MadMuppet]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193740#post1193740 0.0 (bubbles, hot-drops, massive camps)
LS (d-scan sucks, but works, solo on gates is minimal, gatecamps are predictable)
HS (only an issue if you fly with too much in your hold or too many high-buck items on your ship)

]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 01:46:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172250 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Sigurd Sig Hansen]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193653#post1193653

Luba Cibre wrote:

Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

Highsec... look at the number of pod kills. Last I looked there were more pod kills in Jita than any one system in 0.0

Pure numbers won't help you.
You need a Jumps per Kill Ratio to define danger.

Um if there are 79 pod kills in one system and zero in the other it looks like the 79 is more scary than the zero...
Youd expect to die in the system with 79 (hence it being more dangerous) than the one with zero

Plus most of ligh sec has at least one in it... wait till Hulkageddon lol it REALLY lights up then]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 01:19:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172116 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Luba Cibre]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193652#post1193652 Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:

Highsec... look at the number of pod kills. Last I looked there were more pod kills in Jita than any one system in 0.0

Pure numbers won't help you.
You need a Jumps per Kill Ratio to define danger.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 01:18:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172119 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by ChYph3r]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193648#post1193648 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 01:17:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172124 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Sigurd Sig Hansen]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193639#post1193639 Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

npc nullsec
then hostile nullsec
then lowsec
then w-space
then blue nullsec
then highsec

accoding to the "pods killed in the last 24 hours" map you have that backwards. We're talking actual numbers here not how you think it is.

Jita: 79 pods in the last 24. thats more in that one system than in any other one system in the game. Its the only red dot on the map]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 01:15:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172129 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Killer Gandry]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193642#post1193642
Specially after eating beans in any form.
]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 01:15:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172130 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Nicolo da'Vicenza]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193569#post1193569 then hostile nullsec
then lowsec
then w-space
then blue nullsec
then highsec]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:57:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172050 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Dbars Grinding]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193559#post1193559 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:55:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172060 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Arrakasi]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193534#post1193534 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:48:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172007 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Arkturus McFadden]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193526#post1193526 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:46:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171937 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Thor Kerrigan]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193528#post1193528 Just Alter wrote:

Thor Kerrigan wrote:

The op might be - and dare I say MIGHT BE - referring to the only 3 he mentioned... W-space is no "sec" area of the game, just w-space.

wh space is null sec without chat and gates and sov.

still null sec.

Using your logic, lowsec is just highsec but without CONCORD.

Still Highsec.

If I ask you which is most dangerous; cruiser, battlecruiser or battleship and you reply "frigate" and then justify it is a ship class of its own in EVE and yada yada yada... same scenario.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:46:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172013 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Sigurd Sig Hansen]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193529#post1193529 Karn Dulake wrote:

Nullsec

1. Bubbles/Gatecamps
2. Blobs

Lowsec

1. Everyone wants you dead
2. Gatecamps

Highsec

1. Suicide ganking

My opinion

Highsec as you never know when its coming. And the Goons Epeen death squads only have any relevence here, no where else.

Your thoughs please and a big hello to all the trolls and lonely basement dwellers.

Highsec... look at the number of pod kills. Last I looked there were more pod kills in Jita than any one system in 0.0]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:46:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16172014 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Nariya Kentaya]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193500#post1193500 Karn Dulake wrote:

wh space, it IS a sec-sapce, ebcause it ahs its own identifying mechanics, regardless of what it is "labeled" as, its NOT the same as 0.0-risk land.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:41:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171949 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by darmwand]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193502#post1193502 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:41:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171950 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Darth Tickles]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193493#post1193493 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:39:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171958 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Just Alter]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193481#post1193481
All other 3 are actually safe if you're not an idiot.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:37:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171969 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Just Alter]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193486#post1193486 Thor Kerrigan wrote:

The op might be - and dare I say MIGHT BE - referring to the only 3 he mentioned... W-space is no "sec" area of the game, just w-space.

wh space is null sec without chat and gates and sov.

still null sec.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:37:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171970 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Thor Kerrigan]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193449#post1193449 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:29:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171915 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Roll Sizzle Beef]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193426#post1193426 illirdor wrote:

Worm-space....

]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:24:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171861 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by illirdor]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193415#post1193415 Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:21:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171866 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Karn Dulake]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1193410#post1193410
1. Bubbles/Gatecamps
2. Blobs

Lowsec

1. Everyone wants you dead
2. Gatecamps

Highsec

1. Suicide ganking

My opinion

Highsec as you never know when its coming. And the Goons Epeen death squads only have any relevence here, no where else.

Your thoughs please and a big hello to all the trolls and lonely basement dwellers.]]> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:20:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/16171871 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Matanga]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#26#post2#26 I'd like to add a couple of things though.

1) The player base will never be able to understand all that goes behind a patch on EVE (code and management wise). So IMHO we have no place telling CCP how to patch EVE

2) Even though there's a piece of paper somewhere in Iceland that says that EVE belongs to CCP we, the playerbase, share that ownership. This means that the better EVE the better for us, so we should try to help CCP in anything we can to continue improving EVE (bug reports, testing, constructive answers to dev proposals,etc)
NOTE: I understand the person that said that "I want a relaxed play time after work and not use that time to test or bug hunt". One question though. Wouldn't make you feel even better to know that you are not only helping to improve your own game experience but the game experience of lots more of people???

3) Things are improving. I know they are. A easy way to see this? The quick response patch thread for the previous patch was over 20 pages long....for this patch is only 3

Just my 2 isk

"In accordance with the principles of double-think it does not matter if the war is not real. For when it is, victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, but it is meant to be continuous.
George Orwell 1984]]> Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:15:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1577518 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Matanga]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#26#post2#26 I'd like to add a couple of things though.

1) The player base will never be able to understand all that goes behind a patch on EVE (code and management wise). So IMHO we have no place telling CCP how to patch EVE

2) Even though there's a piece of paper somewhere in Iceland that says that EVE belongs to CCP we, the playerbase, share that ownership. This means that the better EVE the better for us, so we should try to help CCP in anything we can to continue improving EVE (bug reports, testing, constructive answers to dev proposals,etc)
NOTE: I understand the person that said that "I want a relaxed play time after work and not use that time to test or bug hunt". One question though. Wouldn't make you feel even better to know that you are not only helping to improve your own game experience but the game experience of lots more of people???

3) Things are improving. I know they are. A easy way to see this? The quick response patch thread for the previous patch was over 20 pages long....for this patch is only 3

Just my 2 isk

"In accordance with the principles of double-think it does not matter if the war is not real. For when it is, victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, but it is meant to be continuous.
George Orwell 1984]]> Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:15:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1577519 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Rancid Mare]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#25#post2#25
now i have not been programming scince the jurassic period as many people seem to claim they have.
i have however been working in the IT sector for many many years.

now someone will obviously correct me on this one, but i fail to see what difference it makes if there are 10, 100 or 100,000 users.
the only effect of increasing numbers of users is the load on the system.

if people are suggesting that load on the system is somehow inducing bugs in the code, then even as a non-programmer it worries me no end.

it should make no difference to the code if its one person trying to put an BP into a lab slot or if its 10,000 people trying to put BPs into lab slots.
as far as the code is concered there should be no differance at all.

obviously you whould expsect that with the more people using the system, you are more likely to uncover obscure odd bugs which are the result of many different factors, but this is not whats happening.
instead we are seeing major glaring bugs with effect fundimental aspects of the game.

i just dont understand how these bugs are not apparent on the test server, but show themselves the instant the code is applied to the main game cluster.
to blame it purley on numbers of users is a very simplton attitude to take.

Rancid Mare of the EveMarshals.
Our Webby

Recruitement Videos here]]> Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:44:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1968589 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Rancid Mare]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#25#post2#25
now i have not been programming scince the jurassic period as many people seem to claim they have.
i have however been working in the IT sector for many many years.

now someone will obviously correct me on this one, but i fail to see what difference it makes if there are 10, 100 or 100,000 users.
the only effect of increasing numbers of users is the load on the system.

if people are suggesting that load on the system is somehow inducing bugs in the code, then even as a non-programmer it worries me no end.

it should make no difference to the code if its one person trying to put an BP into a lab slot or if its 10,000 people trying to put BPs into lab slots.
as far as the code is concered there should be no differance at all.

obviously you whould expsect that with the more people using the system, you are more likely to uncover obscure odd bugs which are the result of many different factors, but this is not whats happening.
instead we are seeing major glaring bugs with effect fundimental aspects of the game.

i just dont understand how these bugs are not apparent on the test server, but show themselves the instant the code is applied to the main game cluster.
to blame it purley on numbers of users is a very simplton attitude to take.

Rancid Mare of the EveMarshals.
Our Webby

Recruitement Videos here]]> Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:44:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1968607 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Sarinas]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#24#post2#24
Then as I've seen in this thread and others, people will come and ask why I wasn't there to try things out myself -- well, if the test servers updated my character often enough, I think I'd definitely do it, but last time I checked my character on Entropy and Chaos had 1.2M, whereas I'm a bit over 3.5M on Tranq. I have no clue about the implications of porting the live characters to Entropy/Chaos, i.e. what it does on system load, why it is not done more often, etc., but there is no arguing in my opinion that it would be useful, if not necessary to do this process more often.

Sorry if anyone feels that I'm drifting off-topic, but I actually think that the lacking character updates on Entropy/Chaos are a part of the problem at hand.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain.]]> Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:45:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2106496 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Sarinas]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#24#post2#24
Then as I've seen in this thread and others, people will come and ask why I wasn't there to try things out myself -- well, if the test servers updated my character often enough, I think I'd definitely do it, but last time I checked my character on Entropy and Chaos had 1.2M, whereas I'm a bit over 3.5M on Tranq. I have no clue about the implications of porting the live characters to Entropy/Chaos, i.e. what it does on system load, why it is not done more often, etc., but there is no arguing in my opinion that it would be useful, if not necessary to do this process more often.

Sorry if anyone feels that I'm drifting off-topic, but I actually think that the lacking character updates on Entropy/Chaos are a part of the problem at hand.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain.]]> Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:45:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2106497 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#23#post2#23

Originally by: Quantum Ghost

Edited by: Quantum Ghost on 11/08/2004 16:22:58
You know I read these posts all the time and I am begining to think that I am the only one that plays this game as a game.

I mean:

Scanner not updating - Sure it's slow sometimes but I never get artifacts from other places.

10% Bonus to missile speed - Who cares !! your opponents don't have it either just report the issue and wait. You are at NO disadvantage.

etc etc

You have to think of the fact that Tranq is a server farm that's 1 tonn in weight !! Now if you want CCP to have a 'test' version of this and have even 50% of the people online that we have on the live servers you need to ask your selves "Will I pay 100 [insert local currency here] for this game a month ?"

This post was started off as a constructive post but to be honest it would be far, far, far more useful every poster on any topic like this logged into chaos with the log server running and reproduced the error.

I mean no disrespect, nor am I trying to get people ****ed at me ! I just belive that being part of the community demands that each of us provides INPUT to improve everyones OUTPUT.

Simply but

Sh!t in Sh!t out.

-QG

p.s. there is not /rant off as I am not ranting, just offering a new point of view.

Thanks for your reply, first of all.

I do however feel it is not the duty of end-users to find easely fixeable bugs for CCP - a small amount of time invested by people assigned to do this suffices for most of the examples I have given in my opening post.(volunteers as well, so it's not only a cost issue but more a management / internal communications optimizing thing)

Tolerance for these kind of things is good, and I think a lot of the eve community is showing a good amount of that when dealing with a lot of small bugs (and having dealt with many in the past). There are many issues I encounter frequently (things not working properly in regular gameplay, and having small workarounds for this on an hourly or even minute base) - mostly glitches - that I do not complain about.

If the big things get fixed as noted in the patch, I think we achieve a greater deal of satisfaction from playing this game, and recommending it wholeheartedly and without reservations to family, friends and on the internet.

The benefit is there for us all afterall - more satisfied players (even the critical ones), more income for ccp, and a constant and steady stream of new players that have a good first eve experience.]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:27:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811442 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#23#post2#23

Originally by: Quantum Ghost

Thanks for your reply, first of all.

I do however feel it is not the duty of end-users to find easely fixeable bugs for CCP - a small amount of time invested by people assigned to do this suffices for most of the examples I have given in my opening post.(volunteers as well, so it's not only a cost issue but more a management / internal communications optimizing thing)

Tolerance for these kind of things is good, and I think a lot of the eve community is showing a good amount of that when dealing with a lot of small bugs (and having dealt with many in the past). There are many issues I encounter frequently (things not working properly in regular gameplay, and having small workarounds for this on an hourly or even minute base) - mostly glitches - that I do not complain about.

If the big things get fixed as noted in the patch, I think we achieve a greater deal of satisfaction from playing this game, and recommending it wholeheartedly and without reservations to family, friends and on the internet.

The benefit is there for us all afterall - more satisfied players (even the critical ones), more income for ccp, and a constant and steady stream of new players that have a good first eve experience.]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:27:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811466 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Jonny Damordred]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#21#post2#21

Originally by: Redundancy

Just to note, Entropy was patched up to 1722 on Thursday the 5th.

Was that the *exact* same patch that was released on Tranq tuesday? If not, that is unhelpful.

Test the patch as a release candidate on entrophy. I promise I will bug test for you then.

Cheers,
Jonny D.
-----
Jonny Damordred: Political attach of the Drunken Horde.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:21:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1212887 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Jonny Damordred]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#21#post2#21

Originally by: Redundancy

Just to note, Entropy was patched up to 1722 on Thursday the 5th.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:21:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1212888 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Quantum Ghost]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#22#post2#22 Edited by: Quantum Ghost on 11/08/2004 16:23:48
Edited by: Quantum Ghost on 11/08/2004 16:22:58
You know I read these posts all the time and I am begining to think that I am the only one that plays this game as a game.

I mean:

Scanner not updating - Sure it's slow sometimes but I never get artifacts from other places.

10% Bonus to missile speed - Who cares !! your opponents don't have it either just report the issue and wait. You are at NO disadvantage.

etc etc

You have to think of the fact that Tranq is a server farm that's 1 tonn in weight !! Now if you want CCP to have a 'test' version of this and have even 50% of the people online that we have on the live servers you need to ask your selves "Will I pay 100 [insert local currency here] for this game a month ?"

This post was started off as a constructive post but to be honest it would be far, far, far more useful if every poster on any topic like this logged into chaos with the log server running and reproduced the error.

I mean no disrespect, nor am I trying to get people ****ed at me ! I just belive that being part of the community demands that each of us provides INPUT to improve everyones OUTPUT.

Simply but

Sh!t in Sh!t out.

-QG

p.s. there is not /rant off as I am not ranting, just offering a new point of view.

In Game - 'Shop@hdy'

Web Site - www.hadean.org

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:21:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1947480 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Quantum Ghost]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2#22#post2#22 Edited by: Quantum Ghost on 11/08/2004 16:23:48
Edited by: Quantum Ghost on 11/08/2004 16:22:58
You know I read these posts all the time and I am begining to think that I am the only one that plays this game as a game.

I mean:

Scanner not updating - Sure it's slow sometimes but I never get artifacts from other places.

10% Bonus to missile speed - Who cares !! your opponents don't have it either just report the issue and wait. You are at NO disadvantage.

etc etc

You have to think of the fact that Tranq is a server farm that's 1 tonn in weight !! Now if you want CCP to have a 'test' version of this and have even 50% of the people online that we have on the live servers you need to ask your selves "Will I pay 100 [insert local currency here] for this game a month ?"

This post was started off as a constructive post but to be honest it would be far, far, far more useful if every poster on any topic like this logged into chaos with the log server running and reproduced the error.

I mean no disrespect, nor am I trying to get people ****ed at me ! I just belive that being part of the community demands that each of us provides INPUT to improve everyones OUTPUT.

Simply but

Sh!t in Sh!t out.

-QG

p.s. there is not /rant off as I am not ranting, just offering a new point of view.

In Game - 'Shop@hdy'

Web Site - www.hadean.org

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:21:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1947481 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#20#post1#20 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 16:22:59

Originally by: Redundancy
Just to note, Entropy was patched up to 1722 on Thursday the 5th.

Thats good, but unfortunately I was unable to effectively do anything with my access to entropy (and many others like me) because the frequency of making backup copies of the user/character dbase was rather low. This ment I had no experienced character with sufficient skillpoints to test the above.

Also I believe that major overseeing of the bugs as noted in my plea should be caught by the officially allocated bughunters [ and or dev's ] - I would certainly be interested in assisting CCP in bughunting, but I dont think it should be their duty as end users to bughunt, but rather enjoy some quality time after a long day of work if and when they chose to .. Sad

(In essence I'm saying here that most bugs should be cought by the people who volunteered for the job, and CCP itself - not by the community)

Thankyou for your response, hopefully you have a more constructive and content-filled posting up in the pipeline that adresses one or multiple of the issues / worries, formulated by me and echoed by others in this thread.

In advance - thank you for your time.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:19:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811462 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#20#post1#20 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 16:22:59

Originally by: Redundancy
Just to note, Entropy was patched up to 1722 on Thursday the 5th.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:19:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811465 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Redundancy]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#19#post1#19 ]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:15:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1997209 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Redundancy]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#19#post1#19 ]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:15:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1997210 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#18#post1#18

Originally by: Jonny Damordred

Originally by: Kelly O'Connor
The fact you think you need 10000 testers to test a patch for 10000 players, sums up why you probably shouldnt post on this thread any longer.

The problem is, you do. Unless a system is tested in the *same* inviroment as it is released on, who knows how it will react. The best idea I have read to fix it sofar is the patch entropy first one.

Cheers,
Jonny D.

(actual Codemonkey)

For some changes in code I agree it's crucial to test with larger groups of people (Especially performance related things, such as fleet battles, lag, bandwith and cpu/hdd issues etc). However, most if not all of the bugs I described above are issues that would show for a single user systematically testing what has been changed, just by reading the changelog. (Only exception I can think of is the model-stuck-on-ship - you need a couple of people in the same place to "find" this out).

So as you can see, you dont need 10,000 testers to prevent issues like the above from occuring. I can fully understand the problems CCP had and have with performance, and feel that most people (as well as myself) show a very high tolerance to these kind of issues (lag most notably). We understand that with limited amounts of pre-testers you cannot predict the behaviour of large-scale, live deployment.]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:11:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811460 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#18#post1#18

Originally by: Jonny Damordred

Originally by: Kelly O'Connor
The fact you think you need 10000 testers to test a patch for 10000 players, sums up why you probably shouldnt post on this thread any longer.

For some changes in code I agree it's crucial to test with larger groups of people (Especially performance related things, such as fleet battles, lag, bandwith and cpu/hdd issues etc). However, most if not all of the bugs I described above are issues that would show for a single user systematically testing what has been changed, just by reading the changelog. (Only exception I can think of is the model-stuck-on-ship - you need a couple of people in the same place to "find" this out).

So as you can see, you dont need 10,000 testers to prevent issues like the above from occuring. I can fully understand the problems CCP had and have with performance, and feel that most people (as well as myself) show a very high tolerance to these kind of issues (lag most notably). We understand that with limited amounts of pre-testers you cannot predict the behaviour of large-scale, live deployment.]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:11:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811461 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Jonny Damordred]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#17#post1#17 Edited by: Jonny Damordred on 11/08/2004 16:09:20

Originally by: Kelly O'Connor
The fact you think you need 10000 testers to test a patch for 10000 players, sums up why you probably shouldnt post on this thread any longer.

The problem is, you do. Unless a system is tested in the *same* inviroment as it is released on, who knows how it will react.

Anyway, the best idea I have read to fix the release problems sofar is the patch entropy first one.

Cheers,
Jonny D.
(actual Codemonkey)

EDIT: Formatting
-----
Jonny Damordred: Political attach of the Drunken Horde.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:06:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1212886 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Jonny Damordred]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#17#post1#17 Edited by: Jonny Damordred on 11/08/2004 16:09:20

Originally by: Kelly O'Connor
The fact you think you need 10000 testers to test a patch for 10000 players, sums up why you probably shouldnt post on this thread any longer.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:06:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1212907 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#16#post1#16 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 16:04:36

Originally by: White Fang
I will take Kelly's point and will keep my calm :). obscuroditus, I did not mean any disrespect.

There is probably a million things to consider when releasing a patch and it is often little details that go unnoticed, this is a classic scenario. As far as preventing bugs in a public patch is concerned, well, if you have EvE you run on Windows, ever see public bugs in that, many of them quite surprising, but again this is industry-wide. However, unlike Microsoft, they fixed what slipped out of their attention immediately as Trogoon points out, so me too, I'd like to say "Good job" to them.

As I pointed out in my earlier posts for example the scanner is still bugged, and the missile bonus on the caracal is still not active (and this is only after a few minutes of 1724 past testing). Both issues were noted by me and others on several places on the forum, including the appropiate ones (that we know are being read by Dev's).

This means that despite the large amounts of found bugs that should not have been in the 1722 to begin with, again no sufficient testing was done in the timeframe between releasing 1722 and releasing 1724 - which worries me, as an end user. Again, I am not here to flame, but I do hope that the extra awareness this might create will prevent this from happening in the future, or at least reduce the frequency of it occuring.

If there is anything else I can do to help CCP, I would be more then willing to invest time and effort in it - but I play this game to enjoy it, not to be a live guineapig in the end on tranquility.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:03:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811467 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#16#post1#16 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 16:04:36

Originally by: White Fang
I will take Kelly's point and will keep my calm :). obscuroditus, I did not mean any disrespect.

There is probably a million things to consider when releasing a patch and it is often little details that go unnoticed, this is a classic scenario. As far as preventing bugs in a public patch is concerned, well, if you have EvE you run on Windows, ever see public bugs in that, many of them quite surprising, but again this is industry-wide. However, unlike Microsoft, they fixed what slipped out of their attention immediately as Trogoon points out, so me too, I'd like to say "Good job" to them.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:03:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811468 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by White Fang]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#15#post1#15

Originally by: obscuroditus
I feel that they can be prevented from ending up in the public patch by testing the changes made, and a bit of testing in general.

There is probably a million things to consider when releasing a patch and it is often little details that go unnoticed, this is a classic scenario. As far as preventing bugs in a public patch is concerned, well, if you have EvE you run on Windows, ever see public bugs in that, many of them quite surprising, but again this is industry-wide. However, unlike Microsoft, they fixed what slipped out of their attention immediately as Trogoon points out, so me too, I'd like to say "Good job" to them.

Originally by: Lain Maraquine
If a dev group at my company released a patch that created bugs even 1/10 as obvious or major as these there would be a serious Come to Jesus meeting from upper management and the manager in charge would get his tail singed a bit.

Definately, that's what probably happened at CCP as well, but that's what managers are paid to do. Objectively, though, they may not be perfect at avoiding bugs in their patches, just like any other software company for that matter, but they are good at fixing what goes wrong quickly and that you can't take away from them.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:57:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2595962 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by White Fang]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#15#post1#15

Originally by: obscuroditus
I feel that they can be prevented from ending up in the public patch by testing the changes made, and a bit of testing in general.

Originally by: Lain Maraquine
If a dev group at my company released a patch that created bugs even 1/10 as obvious or major as these there would be a serious Come to Jesus meeting from upper management and the manager in charge would get his tail singed a bit.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:57:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2595963 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Kelly O'Connor]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#14#post1#14 Edited by: Kelly O'Connor on 11/08/2004 15:52:22

Originally by: Anatolius
I agree totally!

CCP, please raise the monthly fee to $300 USD or so, that you might hire enough testing personnel to mimic the environment of the live game in order to do proper testing before each patch.

Originally by: Lain Maraquaine
If a dev group at my company released a patch that created bugs even 1/10 as obvious or major as these there would be a serious Come to Jesus meeting from upper management and the manager in charge would get his tail singed a bit.

Read the following carefully, it's the most sensical thing you'll ever see on these forums:

Originally by: White Fang
When you introudce a new piece of software, especially when it is transferred to another environment, one it wasn't developped in originally, you can end up with all kinds of surpises, a lot of the time things you can't even foresee.

The fact you think you need 10000 testers to test a patch for 10000 players, sums up why you probably shouldnt post on this thread any longer.

ty
]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:51:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1308683 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Kelly O'Connor]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#14#post1#14 Edited by: Kelly O'Connor on 11/08/2004 15:52:22

Originally by: Anatolius
I agree totally!

CCP, please raise the monthly fee to $300 USD or so, that you might hire enough testing personnel to mimic the environment of the live game in order to do proper testing before each patch.

Originally by: Lain Maraquaine
If a dev group at my company released a patch that created bugs even 1/10 as obvious or major as these there would be a serious Come to Jesus meeting from upper management and the manager in charge would get his tail singed a bit.

Read the following carefully, it's the most sensical thing you'll ever see on these forums:

Originally by: White Fang
When you introudce a new piece of software, especially when it is transferred to another environment, one it wasn't developped in originally, you can end up with all kinds of surpises, a lot of the time things you can't even foresee.

The fact you think you need 10000 testers to test a patch for 10000 players, sums up why you probably shouldnt post on this thread any longer.

ty
]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:51:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1308687 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#13#post1#13

Originally by: Anatolius

I agree totally!
You mean, unwanted or not implemented the way the vocal minority would like? The majority of EVE's playerbase is not represented on these forums.

I think I can speak for the majority of the EVE community (both actively participating on these forums, passively reading and purely in-game persona) that everyone would benefit from a game that is as free of bugs and non-inentional changes as is technically possible.

It's not about reducing the number of occurences such as I describe in my initial posting to absolute zero, but to try to minimalise the frequency of issues like this to levels that are barely noticeable and absolutely acceptable.]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:47:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811441 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#13#post1#13

Originally by: Anatolius

I agree totally!
You mean, unwanted or not implemented the way the vocal minority would like? The majority of EVE's playerbase is not represented on these forums.

I think I can speak for the majority of the EVE community (both actively participating on these forums, passively reading and purely in-game persona) that everyone would benefit from a game that is as free of bugs and non-inentional changes as is technically possible.

It's not about reducing the number of occurences such as I describe in my initial posting to absolute zero, but to try to minimalise the frequency of issues like this to levels that are barely noticeable and absolutely acceptable.]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:47:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811603 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Anatolius]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#12#post1#12
CCP, please raise the monthly fee to $300 USD or so, that you might hire enough testing personnel to mimic the environment of the live game in order to do proper testing before each patch.

Originally by: Lain Maraquaine
If a dev group at my company released a patch that created bugs even 1/10 as obvious or major as these there would be a serious Come to Jesus meeting from upper management and the manager in charge would get his tail singed a bit.

Read the following carefully, it's the most sensical thing you'll ever see on these forums:

Originally by: White Fang
When you introudce a new piece of software, especially when it is transferred to another environment, one it wasn't developped in originally, you can end up with all kinds of surpises, a lot of the time things you can't even foresee.

Originally by: Lain Maraquaine
They would realize that many of their game adjustments are unwanted or not implemented the way users would like.

Originally by: Lain Maraquaine
If a dev group at my company released a patch that created bugs even 1/10 as obvious or major as these there would be a serious Come to Jesus meeting from upper management and the manager in charge would get his tail singed a bit.

Read the following carefully, it's the most sensical thing you'll ever see on these forums:

Originally by: White Fang
When you introudce a new piece of software, especially when it is transferred to another environment, one it wasn't developped in originally, you can end up with all kinds of surpises, a lot of the time things you can't even foresee.

Originally by: Lain Maraquaine
They would realize that many of their game adjustments are unwanted or not implemented the way users would like.

You mean, unwanted or not implemented the way the vocal minority would like? The majority of EVE's playerbase is not represented on these forums.
---
Having recently acquired a lab slot (thank you, rental bug), I wholeheartily concur, there's absolutely no problem with lab slots!]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:42:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/92166 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Synex]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#11#post1#11
I've been on both, and spend a lot of time on Chaos testing things.

Chaos always has the cutting edge of development (not including Shiva stuff - seperate server) and therefore, not everything on Chaos gets through to Tranquility.

However, i'd like to see new patches (for TQ) being released onto Entropy a week before they are due to be released onto TQ. This would allow us to log on a take a look, do a bit of testing and get rid of the really really obvious bugs before it hits the main server where things really matter.

This patch-to-Entropy would happen after the feature-freeze for each patch, giving the devs ample time to go "Oops, this wasn't meant to be in here" before the majority of the EVE population go to task on it.

That's the way I'd do it at least...

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:41:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2357526 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Synex]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#11#post1#11
I've been on both, and spend a lot of time on Chaos testing things.

Chaos always has the cutting edge of development (not including Shiva stuff - seperate server) and therefore, not everything on Chaos gets through to Tranquility.

However, i'd like to see new patches (for TQ) being released onto Entropy a week before they are due to be released onto TQ. This would allow us to log on a take a look, do a bit of testing and get rid of the really really obvious bugs before it hits the main server where things really matter.

This patch-to-Entropy would happen after the feature-freeze for each patch, giving the devs ample time to go "Oops, this wasn't meant to be in here" before the majority of the EVE population go to task on it.

That's the way I'd do it at least...

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:41:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2357527 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Trogoon]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#10#post1#10 Edited by: Trogoon on 11/08/2004 15:41:08
Perhaps Lain, but still if you go to www.eve-i.com and look at Dev post Finder, you'll be able to see where they respond. That way you can see where the devs attention are at, and write a constructive comment. This is not a flame, merely a hint to see where they are ;)

As for the patch you're for the bugless slow release, fair enough.
]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:39:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2505915 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Trogoon]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#10#post1#10 Edited by: Trogoon on 11/08/2004 15:41:08
Perhaps Lain, but still if you go to www.eve-i.com and look at Dev post Finder, you'll be able to see where they respond. That way you can see where the devs attention are at, and write a constructive comment. This is not a flame, merely a hint to see where they are ;)

As for the patch you're for the bugless slow release, fair enough.
]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:39:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2505916 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#9#post1#9

Originally by: Trogoon

Edited by: Trogoon on 11/08/2004 15:33:44
Well, what we have here is not really a whining post, but merely a players concern about patch testing etc.

The debate shouldn't really concern this patch, but more CCPs way of patching. Do we want to wait 2 extra weeks per patch before it was completely bugless ("completely") or do we want to see it implemented and fixed after a day. I'll have to say on my part I really feel like the Devs here actually listen to the crowd (Crowd Control Produtions :) and the testing is a player/dev thing, instead of inhouse patching. Lets take DaOC for example, alot of the changes there were much worse than this, hugely outbalancing a class, and in the next patch they'd do the exact opposite, so you ended with poles etc.

The cruiser changes is a good way of showing this, the input on the nerf to Thorax made the decision obsolete, and was changed back. This was not due to the huge outcry, but due to players coming back with objective and well thought critics (Some were, I despise the "OMG DONT NERF IT"). We are the players after all and it is perhaps easier for us to test all ships than it is for a limited amount of patch testers.

They give us good time with a warning of patch day and says "train a long skill" I do that, and generally see how the patch is during the evening after it has been implemented. I'd like to take the opposite approach to the poster and say "Good Job!" on the patching day, especially as you sorted your critical problem so fast yesterday.

As said in the post, its not about whining, its about Osb being concerned for the CCP and their reputation. I like their way of doing it, he is entitled to his opinion, now lets hear some more well thought critics or agreement to the post :)

Yes, I agree with you that the way CCP [ Dev's ] respond to, and work with members of the community is improving dramatically from what I have seen from it when I recently joined, or what seemed to be the situation half a year back. I can only applaud CCP for this, and hope their tendency to improve upon end-user relations will be with us for as long as the game lasts.

This is however a different matter, and hopefully I did not create the impression in my posts that I was concerned about the attitude towards end-users, since I was trying to create an open discussion both about and with CCP about improvements that could perhaps be made to prevent issues like we had with the previous and current patch from happening as good as humanly possible in the future.

Thank you for your well voiced response, much appreciated.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:37:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811439 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#9#post1#9

Originally by: Trogoon

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:37:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811440 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Lain Maraquine]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#8#post1#8
My job is as a computer programmer as well, and I'm sure dozens or other Eve players are full-time programmers. I can't believe you would excuse this kind of low quality patch testing. These bugs are very obvious and major. Minutes of testing would have revealed that the problems still existed or were worse than before.

If a dev group at my company released a patch that created bugs even 1/10 as obvious or major as these there would be a serious Come to Jesus meeting from upper management and the manager in charge would get his tail singed a bit.

My own opinion is that the development group for EVE would do good by actively participating in the forums. They would realize that many of their game adjustments are unwanted or not implemented the way users would like. They would see other major issues that should be addressed.

Many people have spent large amounts of time writing up their suggestions for changes to improve the game and others have spent long hours debating and finetuning the suggestions. The EVE developers very very rarely comment - I've never seen one at any rate. The discussion forums seem to exist in a vacuum, where the dev group doesn't actually listen to the players. This is the major problem with EVE right now - The developers aren't listening to the players.

And thank you, obscuroditus, for starting this thread with a good post.
]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:34:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1398101 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Lain Maraquine]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#8#post1#8
My job is as a computer programmer as well, and I'm sure dozens or other Eve players are full-time programmers. I can't believe you would excuse this kind of low quality patch testing. These bugs are very obvious and major. Minutes of testing would have revealed that the problems still existed or were worse than before.

If a dev group at my company released a patch that created bugs even 1/10 as obvious or major as these there would be a serious Come to Jesus meeting from upper management and the manager in charge would get his tail singed a bit.

My own opinion is that the development group for EVE would do good by actively participating in the forums. They would realize that many of their game adjustments are unwanted or not implemented the way users would like. They would see other major issues that should be addressed.

Many people have spent large amounts of time writing up their suggestions for changes to improve the game and others have spent long hours debating and finetuning the suggestions. The EVE developers very very rarely comment - I've never seen one at any rate. The discussion forums seem to exist in a vacuum, where the dev group doesn't actually listen to the players. This is the major problem with EVE right now - The developers aren't listening to the players.

And thank you, obscuroditus, for starting this thread with a good post.
]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:34:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1398102 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Trogoon]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#7#post1#7 Edited by: Trogoon on 11/08/2004 15:33:44
Well, what we have here is not really a whining post, but merely a players concern about patch testing etc.

The debate shouldn't really concern this patch, but more CCPs way of patching. Do we want to wait 2 extra weeks per patch before it was completely bugless ("completely") or do we want to see it implemented and fixed after a day. I'll have to say on my part I really feel like the Devs here actually listen to the crowd (Crowd Control Produtions :) and the testing is a player/dev thing, instead of inhouse patching. Lets take DaOC for example, alot of the changes there were much worse than this, hugely outbalancing a class, and in the next patch they'd do the exact opposite, so you ended with poles etc.

The cruiser changes is a good way of showing this, the input on the nerf to Thorax made the decision obsolete, and was changed back. This was not due to the huge outcry, but due to players coming back with objective and well thought critics (Some were, I despise the "OMG DONT NERF IT"). We are the players after all and it is perhaps easier for us to test all ships than it is for a limited amount of patch testers.

They give us good time with a warning of patch day and says "train a long skill" I do that, and generally see how the patch is during the evening after it has been implemented. I'd like to take the opposite approach to the poster and say "Good Job!" on the patching day, especially as you sorted your critical problem so fast yesterday.

As said in the post, its not about whining, its about Osb being concerned for the CCP and their reputation. I like their way of doing it, he is entitled to his opinion, now lets hear some more well thought critics or agreement to the post :)
]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:31:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2505913 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Trogoon]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#7#post1#7 Edited by: Trogoon on 11/08/2004 15:33:44
Well, what we have here is not really a whining post, but merely a players concern about patch testing etc.

The debate shouldn't really concern this patch, but more CCPs way of patching. Do we want to wait 2 extra weeks per patch before it was completely bugless ("completely") or do we want to see it implemented and fixed after a day. I'll have to say on my part I really feel like the Devs here actually listen to the crowd (Crowd Control Produtions :) and the testing is a player/dev thing, instead of inhouse patching. Lets take DaOC for example, alot of the changes there were much worse than this, hugely outbalancing a class, and in the next patch they'd do the exact opposite, so you ended with poles etc.

The cruiser changes is a good way of showing this, the input on the nerf to Thorax made the decision obsolete, and was changed back. This was not due to the huge outcry, but due to players coming back with objective and well thought critics (Some were, I despise the "OMG DONT NERF IT"). We are the players after all and it is perhaps easier for us to test all ships than it is for a limited amount of patch testers.

They give us good time with a warning of patch day and says "train a long skill" I do that, and generally see how the patch is during the evening after it has been implemented. I'd like to take the opposite approach to the poster and say "Good Job!" on the patching day, especially as you sorted your critical problem so fast yesterday.

As said in the post, its not about whining, its about Osb being concerned for the CCP and their reputation. I like their way of doing it, he is entitled to his opinion, now lets hear some more well thought critics or agreement to the post :)
]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:31:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2505914 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#6#post1#6 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 15:33:50
Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 15:28:20

Originally by: White Fang
Obscuroditus, Jesus, man stop whining! I don't know where you work in real life, but it's definately not computers. I am a computer programmer myself and I believe I am in a better position to judge the quality of work of CCP devs. When you introudce a new piece of software, especially when it is transferred to another environment, one it wasn't developped in originally, you can end up with all kinds of surpises, a lot of the time things you can't even foresee. This is industry-wide and if you want to be a consumer of this industry you have to live with it. Criticizing is always easy, but you obviously have no clue what is involved in working on such big projects like EvE, so cut the crap.

Where do I say it is not allowed to make mistakes? Having experience as a beta/alpha tester of eve (and other games) I think I know when things can be prevented, and in my view there is room for improvement.

It is not about the mistakes made implementing, I can fully understand them occuring with a complex game like this.

However, you might note that I am not saying the mistakes should not be made in the first place, but that I feel that they can be prevented from ending up in the public patch by testing the changes made, and a bit of testing in general. How can a bug be listed as fixed, while the bug is not fixed at all - that is essentially what I have been saying. I pay for this game and so do tens of thousands of others, and this means we can raise our expectations. It's not free, its not shareware, it's not opensource. There is not much we can do ourselves from this end to resolve the issues, so voicing our concerns, or writing down valid and well described criticism is a sane way of hopfully decreasing frequency of things like this occuring in the future - benefitting both the end user as wel as CCP as a whole.

White Fang : On a sidenote, regarding my occupations in real life :
I work and have worked for large companies in the support sector, and have enough experience in dealing with both end user as well as in-company support for both finalised and alpha/beta software, drivers and hardware to validate my plea made in the starting posts as more then merely ranting or unfunded criticism. Thank you.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:24:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811578 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#6#post1#6 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 15:33:50
Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 15:28:20

Originally by: White Fang
Obscuroditus, Jesus, man stop whining! I don't know where you work in real life, but it's definately not computers. I am a computer programmer myself and I believe I am in a better position to judge the quality of work of CCP devs. When you introudce a new piece of software, especially when it is transferred to another environment, one it wasn't developped in originally, you can end up with all kinds of surpises, a lot of the time things you can't even foresee. This is industry-wide and if you want to be a consumer of this industry you have to live with it. Criticizing is always easy, but you obviously have no clue what is involved in working on such big projects like EvE, so cut the crap.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:24:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811580 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Kelly O'Connor]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#5#post1#5 Edited by: Kelly O'Connor on 11/08/2004 15:22:06
In my time playing eve, I have come to one conclusion about patches:

Eve has apparently very VERY bad QA/BH.

That's not to say it is bad, just it appears to be terrible with the amount of things sneaking into patches.

Originally by: White Fang
Obscuroditus, Jesus, man stop whining! I don't know where you work in real life, but it's definately not computers. I am a computer programmer myself and I believe I am in a better position to judge the quality of work of CCP devs. When you introudce a new piece of software, especially when it is transferred to another environment, one it wasn't developped in originally, you can end up with all kinds of surpises, a lot of the time things you can't even foresee. This is industry-wide and if you want to be a consumer of this industry you have to live with it. Criticizing is always easy, but you obviously have no clue what is involved in working on such big projects like EvE, so cut the crap.

You are the whiner, obscuroditus backs up his points, doesnt attack anyone, but you reply attacking him and his posts.
]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:20:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1308693 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Kelly O'Connor]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#5#post1#5 Edited by: Kelly O'Connor on 11/08/2004 15:22:06
In my time playing eve, I have come to one conclusion about patches:

Eve has apparently very VERY bad QA/BH.

That's not to say it is bad, just it appears to be terrible with the amount of things sneaking into patches.

Originally by: White Fang
Obscuroditus, Jesus, man stop whining! I don't know where you work in real life, but it's definately not computers. I am a computer programmer myself and I believe I am in a better position to judge the quality of work of CCP devs. When you introudce a new piece of software, especially when it is transferred to another environment, one it wasn't developped in originally, you can end up with all kinds of surpises, a lot of the time things you can't even foresee. This is industry-wide and if you want to be a consumer of this industry you have to live with it. Criticizing is always easy, but you obviously have no clue what is involved in working on such big projects like EvE, so cut the crap.

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:20:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2595958 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by White Fang]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#4#post1#4

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:20:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/2595959 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Jacob Vought]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#3#post1#3 ]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:19:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1115778 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by Jacob Vought]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#3#post1#3 ]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:19:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1115779 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#2#post1#2 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 15:31:14
[ Maximum Message limit, sorry !]

5) Previously, the autoscanner would not update properly. This has been resolved.
** Several minutes of playing indicated to me that the autoscanner bug is still present in its old form. I am unsure again how this can be overlooked - a couple of jumps from anywhere to anywhere with some entities in the neighbourhood would show to any user that the autoscanner still has "stuck" items from before a jump listed. Again I wonder how a fix mentioned specifically in the changelog of 1722 can still exist - one must assume that either the code was changed and a dev expected the changes to be sufficient [ without testing it "live" ] or there were simply no changes made [ or at the least not ported from the dev's code to the final patch ] . Besides that, this very annoying and unmisseable bug slipped through any testing we must assume has been done by testers, both volunteers and CCP people alike.

The examples above are just that - examples -. By far they are not unique, and I have only been playing EVE for two months, returning from being an alpha and beta tester for CCP/EVE about 1.5 years ago. I write this message because I am worried about the amount of "slips" made, and feel that voicing my concerns in a proper and clear way might raise awareness within CCP or the patchtesters that there should be a change or at least improvement in the way new code is being tested/verified/marked ready for release.

Although I understand that any user can file burgreports, I also know by experience that avid users often cannot discern between a real bug, or just improper unstanding of client/server behaviour (not to mention client-side hardware and driver issues). The bugreportsite gets flooded with a lot of reports, and the real issues might get snowed under. Again, giving higher priority to a decidated group of testers that go through all changed game aspects and at the least test common behaviour of the ready-for-release client both in groups and individually should prevent any of the serious mistakes/bugs as occured in the last few patches, and the 1722 patch specifically.

Your thoughts, both from users and CCP/Volunteer people, are highly valued in this matter, since I can only feel that being open about this issue and saying it where it stands would benefit the future quality of gameplay, through the means of 'near perfect' patches and good communication both from and to CCP.

- Michael.

p.s. on a sidenote I would like to also notify CCP of the fact that the missile velocity bonus for the caracal is still not implemented [ After testing this a few minutes ago ] despite the 1724 hotfix and me and several others voicing the appearent disfunctionality of the new caracal missile speed bonus in several threads, including but not limited to the "1722 current patch bug list" thread which I assume is regularly read by CCP or volunteers.]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:17:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811577 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#2#post1#2 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 15:31:14
[ Maximum Message limit, sorry !]

5) Previously, the autoscanner would not update properly. This has been resolved.
** Several minutes of playing indicated to me that the autoscanner bug is still present in its old form. I am unsure again how this can be overlooked - a couple of jumps from anywhere to anywhere with some entities in the neighbourhood would show to any user that the autoscanner still has "stuck" items from before a jump listed. Again I wonder how a fix mentioned specifically in the changelog of 1722 can still exist - one must assume that either the code was changed and a dev expected the changes to be sufficient [ without testing it "live" ] or there were simply no changes made [ or at the least not ported from the dev's code to the final patch ] . Besides that, this very annoying and unmisseable bug slipped through any testing we must assume has been done by testers, both volunteers and CCP people alike.

The examples above are just that - examples -. By far they are not unique, and I have only been playing EVE for two months, returning from being an alpha and beta tester for CCP/EVE about 1.5 years ago. I write this message because I am worried about the amount of "slips" made, and feel that voicing my concerns in a proper and clear way might raise awareness within CCP or the patchtesters that there should be a change or at least improvement in the way new code is being tested/verified/marked ready for release.

Although I understand that any user can file burgreports, I also know by experience that avid users often cannot discern between a real bug, or just improper unstanding of client/server behaviour (not to mention client-side hardware and driver issues). The bugreportsite gets flooded with a lot of reports, and the real issues might get snowed under. Again, giving higher priority to a decidated group of testers that go through all changed game aspects and at the least test common behaviour of the ready-for-release client both in groups and individually should prevent any of the serious mistakes/bugs as occured in the last few patches, and the 1722 patch specifically.

Your thoughts, both from users and CCP/Volunteer people, are highly valued in this matter, since I can only feel that being open about this issue and saying it where it stands would benefit the future quality of gameplay, through the means of 'near perfect' patches and good communication both from and to CCP.

- Michael.

p.s. on a sidenote I would like to also notify CCP of the fact that the missile velocity bonus for the caracal is still not implemented [ After testing this a few minutes ago ] despite the 1724 hotfix and me and several others voicing the appearent disfunctionality of the new caracal missile speed bonus in several threads, including but not limited to the "1722 current patch bug list" thread which I assume is regularly read by CCP or volunteers.]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:17:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811599 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#1#post1#1 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 15:49:44
[ IMPORTANT NOTE TO RESPONDERS : Please keep this thread civil, free of flames and as constructive as possible - our aim should be to improve, not to break down ! ]

I would like to voice my concerns on recent patches that were introduced, and specifically yesterdays 1722 release.

I have trouble to understand how multiple important fixes that are listed in the patchlog are either working incorrectly or not working at all, and how very obvious bugs slip in that get noticed within minutes after installing a patch by even the most avid user.

I understand that writing / fixing the code, compiling, distributing all take a lot of time, and that they might be on a tight schedule each month to release the patch in a timely fashion - but one must also assume that CCP tests the build they are going to release, most notably test the features they have changed or implemented, and test generally to see if the changes they have made affected other parts of the code / game behaviour.

This testing might take a day or perhaps several days, but should be essential prior to releasing anything new to the public. This saves hotfixes, downtime, a lot of frustrated or at least unsettled customers, and generally makes people regard the company (CCP) as more professional.

Let me give some examples (I have only spent a couple of hours after the patch ingame, but this is what I've come up with up to now) :

Changes in the 1722 patch from 1618 :
1) Facilities now consider the demand for their facilities (offices, factories and lab slots)
** Factories did not work properly as known. Changes are made to the factory/office/labslot code, hence basic testing of either of these (renting, creation, usage) should be done prior to using the code in a public patch.

2) Additional secondary bonuses have been added to all cruisers.
** One of the secondary bonuses was a 10% missile speed increase on the caracal. One assumes that all secondary bonuses were tested using the patch released to the public. Two obvious things should strike any tester running a client based on 1722 code :
a) Missile damage was incorrectly calculated, implementations of non-finalised code sneaked into the current build (May I remind you this is the second time this happend in a month - code from chaos/other test server sneaking into Tranquility public patches)
b) Missile bonus for caracal was not applied - no 10% speed increase was visible, missiles still had 45km reach @ 1200m/sec. Again this would have come up with the most basic of testing - something that I assume is being done by either volunteers (bughunters) and the programmers after changing code and considering release to public.

3) "Ghost ship after jump" issue.
** This is almost too obvious to overlook. The ghostship problem was present in the 1618 patch, CCP knows of it, we know of it - and one must assume they at least glanced at the jumping code to locate or get rid of this problem. Changes were made either on purpose or accidentially (e.g. for another another issue, affecting this on the side).
Any simple testing of the final patch would have quickly revealed stuck ships after jumps, the frequency of occurance is reaching statistics nearing three digits. Again this makes me wonder to what extent the 1722 patch was tested, and how much attention is being given by devs themselves to verify their changes in specific code do not create unwanted side effects.

4) Removed wallet journal export again. It was not supposed to be in the patch.
** Although I applaud the honesty displayed here on CCP's part, I still cannot understand how several things end up in patches each time, that were not supposed to be there in the first place. Code is being changed, a log is kept by the programmer which modules or parts of code he changes, and that should be the end of it. A casual mistake I can understand, but this happens too frequently. I am not sure to what extent I can look at the "testers" of 1722 patch for this, because if there was no mentioning from dev's that there were any changes near / at the wallet journal part of the code, I find it understandeable that the code is not being looked at as thoroughly as other [changed] parts of the client/server.

[ Message continued below ]

]]> Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:01:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/1811585 <![CDATA[What in your opinion is the most dangerous sec - by obscuroditus]]> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1#1#post1#1 Edited by: obscuroditus on 11/08/2004 15:49:44
[ IMPORTANT NOTE TO RESPONDERS : Please keep this thread civil, free of flames and as constructive as possible - our aim should be to improve, not to break down ! ]

I would like to voice my concerns on recent patches that were introduced, and specifically yesterdays 1722 release.

I have trouble to understand how multiple important fixes that are listed in the patchlog are either working incorrectly or not working at all, and how very obvious bugs slip in that get noticed within minutes after installing a patch by even the most avid user.

I understand that writing / fixing the code, compiling, distributing all take a lot of time, and that they might be on a tight schedule each month to release the patch in a timely fashion - but one must also assume that CCP tests the build they are going to release, most notably test the features they have changed or implemented, and test generally to see if the changes they have made affected other parts of the code / game behaviour.

This testing might take a day or perhaps several days, but should be essential prior to releasing anything new to the public. This saves hotfixes, downtime, a lot of frustrated or at least unsettled customers, and generally makes people regard the company (CCP) as more professional.

Let me give some examples (I have only spent a couple of hours after the patch ingame, but this is what I've come up with up to now) :

Changes in the 1722 patch from 1618 :
1) Facilities now consider the demand for their facilities (offices, factories and lab slots)
** Factories did not work properly as known. Changes are made to the factory/office/labslot code, hence basic testing of either of these (renting, creation, usage) should be done prior to using the code in a public patch.

2) Additional secondary bonuses have been added to all cruisers.
** One of the secondary bonuses was a 10% missile speed increase on the caracal. One assumes that all secondary bonuses were tested using the patch released to the public. Two obvious things should strike any tester running a client based on 1722 code :
a) Missile damage was incorrectly calculated, implementations of non-finalised code sneaked into the current build (May I remind you this is the second time this happend in a month - code from chaos/other test server sneaking into Tranquility public patches)
b) Missile bonus for caracal was not applied - no 10% speed increase was visible, missiles still had 45km reach @ 1200m/sec. Again this would have come up with the most basic of testing - something that I assume is being done by either volunteers (bughunters) and the programmers after changing code and considering release to public.

3) "Ghost ship after jump" issue.
** This is almost too obvious to overlook. The ghostship problem was present in the 1618 patch, CCP knows of it, we know of it - and one must assume they at least glanced at the jumping code to locate or get rid of this problem. Changes were made either on purpose or accidentially (e.g. for another another issue, affecting this on the side).
Any simple testing of the final patch would have quickly revealed stuck ships after jumps, the frequency of occurance is reaching statistics nearing three digits. Again this makes me wonder to what extent the 1722 patch was tested, and how much attention is being given by devs themselves to verify their changes in specific code do not create unwanted side effects.

4) Removed wallet journal export again. It was not supposed to be in the patch.
** Although I applaud the honesty displayed here on CCP's part, I still cannot understand how several things end up in patches each time, that were not supposed to be there in the first place. Code is being changed, a log is kept by the programmer which modules or parts of code he changes, and that should be the end of it. A casual mistake I can understand, but this happens too frequently. I am not sure to what extent I can look at the "testers" of 1722 patch for this, because if there was no mentioning from dev's that there were any changes near / at the wallet journal part of the code, I find it understandeable that the code is not being looked at as thoroughly as other [changed] parts of the client/server.

[ Message continued below ]

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