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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Vessar Koshir

Wed, 1 Mar 2009 16:43:00 +0000

Edited by: Vessar Koshir on 01/03/2006 16:43:13
The way I see it, gatecamping is a perfectly legitimate way to safe-guard claimed space until such time as CCP makes it possible to do so differently.

Personally, I think 0.0 is fundamentally flawed in layout. At the moment, we have the border gates which have to be vigorously camped to avoid undesirables gaining entrance, and then we have wide-open tracts of space behind those gates which are almost impossible to defend, especially when dealing with small, fast ships or savvy pilots with instas and safespots at the ready.

I would far rather than there be many points of access to 0.0, with the space inside those multiple access points being more difficult to traverse. Perhaps cut down access to each constellation to just one or two systems, with single-system wide "corridors" running between the various constellations(imagine narrow streets and cul-de-sacs[sp?]). Intensify the resources within individual constellations to make it worth taking and holding even small amounts of territory.

Combine that with "limited" automated defenses such as gate turrets in claimed space, and you have a 0.0 which is all at once more open, easier to defend and(IMO of course) more fun. It would be far more difficult to take space, but the effort would be worth it for that very reason; alliances and corps would know that once an area was properly claimed it would be easier to secure and defend than it is today. Controllng entire regions would take a lot of co-ordination, defending them even moreso, but I think that's how it should be.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Daos Leghki

Wed, 1 Mar 2009 12:30:00 +0000

Edited by: Daos Leghki on 01/03/2006 12:32:20
As a relatively new character, I can say that low security and 0.0 are as accessible to newbies as they want it to be. I got blown up the first few times I went into low security. I live there now, and fly worse ships than the ones that got blown up. The trick is knowing how to survive. I've been in 0.0 to scout for ore (there isn't any) and haven't been killed because I was cautious. Sure, if you're autopiloting, you're gonna get popped. It just takes some effort. Most alliances I've seen do not KOS, they tell you to leave their space and that's that.

The real trick to enjoying Eve is to not be afraid of losing ships. I absolutely loved it when I engaged a Stiletto and a Raven in my Punisher. I got popped in 3 salvos of torps, sure, but it was fun _ expensive ships are overrated anyway.

*edit* The other real trick, of course, is to be nice. An alliance pilot assumes the worst when someone shows up at a gate he's been told to guard, but if you inquire about whether he's going to let you through, and wish him a good day, odds are you're gonna at least survive, if not get through. Alliance space is controlled by a lot of people. You need to either be friends with them or stronger than them.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by pshepherd

Tue, 28 Feb 2009 10:31:00 +0000

Originally by: F'nog
And many camped systems can by either bypassed or gone through by players with just a little bit of knowledge of doing so. It doesn't take many SPs to break a camp.

exactly. Try create an alt and auto-pilot to a random section in 0.0 while flying a shuttle. If you afk, theres a 50% chance you'll get there alive, if you keep an eye on it then theres a 95% chance you'll arive alive.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by F'nog

Tue, 28 Feb 2009 08:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Guntaro
Originally by: Tony Fats

If its that easy to claim space then why aren't you doing it instead of just whining about it?

Why do you have to ask permission? Because they work together and you don't.

I didn't say it was easy to claim space. My point is that it is far too easy for alliance players, the majority of which are long time highly skilled players, to camp choke point entrance routes into 0.0 space and prevent non-member players from getting through with little risk to themselves.

An actively camped system can be impossible for an outsider/newer player to get through. This effectively shuts them out of a huge section of the game which is the problem the OP is addressing.

I think you'll find that alliances are composed of nearly the same distribution of players as the rest of Eve. They have fewer beginners than the rest of the game, but there are plenty of low skillpoint players in alliances. The believe that all alliances are composed of 40mil SP vets is part of the problem that self-limits newer players from exploring 0.0.

And many camped systems can by either bypassed or gone through by players with just a little bit of knowledge of doing so. It doesn't take many SPs to break a camp.

Originally by: Bl4zer
But, cmon, this is the Eve forums, we don't let facts get in the way of pointless speculation.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Guntaro

Tue, 28 Feb 2009 08:03:00 +0000

Originally by: Tony Fats

If its that easy to claim space then why aren't you doing it instead of just whining about it?

Why do you have to ask permission? Because they work together and you don't.

I didn't say it was easy to claim space. My point is that it is far too easy for alliance players, the majority of which are long time highly skilled players, to camp choke point entrance routes into 0.0 space and prevent non-member players from getting through with little risk to themselves.

An actively camped system can be impossible for an outsider/newer player to get through. This effectively shuts them out of a huge section of the game which is the problem the OP is addressing.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Lienzo

Tue, 28 Feb 2009 06:28:00 +0000

Originally by: Tony Fats

If its that easy to claim space then why aren't you doing it instead of just whining about it?

Why do you have to ask permission? Because they work together and you don't.

Too true. EVE is very much a social simulator. Screw it up and you might as well unsubscribe.

It kinda makes me wonder sometimes the way security works.

Example: Like with station or gate guns that are designed to kinda sorta assist the solo prey. All those do is stop newb or solo pirates that don't have access to high end equipment. Kinda silly when you think about it. All it does is remove the soloists from the pool and demand the creation of situations that a solo prey can't hope to survive outside of logging.

I would think most players would be happy to see more solo aggressors composing a percentage of their aggressors outside of belts. Then they might see more in the way of winnable and chancy encounters.

We always have to think two steps ahead of a change. Nerfing chokepoints should embolden people and make for more targets for everybody. Zone security should mean more than just keeping a zone empty. It will mean a more complex social interaction in 0.0 or at least more action in general.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Tony Fats

Tue, 28 Feb 2009 05:51:00 +0000

Originally by: Guntaro
Originally by: Verone

Three words to the original poster that say it all :

RISK VS REWARD

Exactly the opposite! I would ask you where is the risk to alliance players if whole sections of space are blocked off and no outsider can enter? I say yes Risk vs Reward by letting there be more access routes into 0.0 space and make it harder to camp choke points with little risk.

The root of the issue here I feel lies with the game itself. While ingame, the reasons of defending territory and securing borders in 0.0 space seem legitimate enough, ultimately however what is happening is that many people cannot play a huge part of the game that they are paying for without first getting permission from other players and that is something I personally resent.

Why should I have to get permission from other players to play a part of a game that I am paying for?
The fact that the game mechanics seem to support this is a mistake and a flaw in the game in my opinion.
Especially with the growing numbers of players, I feel it is time to open up 0.0 space by adding more access routes.

If its that easy to claim space then why aren't you doing it instead of just whining about it?

Why do you have to ask permission? Because they work together and you don't.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by F'nog

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 19:34:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
I think CCPs goal is to create a vast amount of entrances to 0.0 then create chokepoints further in towards deeper 0.0.

They mentioned that a while ago. I wonder what happened to the idea? Maybe in Kali?

Originally by: Bl4zer
But, cmon, this is the Eve forums, we don't let facts get in the way of pointless speculation.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Shin Ra

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 14:12:00 +0000

I think CCPs goal is to create a vast amount of entrances to 0.0 then create chokepoints further in towards deeper 0.0.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Malachon Draco

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 11:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Alexis DeTocqueville
Edited by: Alexis DeTocqueville on 26/02/2006 15:48:29
Originally by: Dark Shikari

I think its quite clear that NBSI is the best policy.

Strategically, yes. Economically, no. Just look at how ISS is rolling in profits. Why it took an independent starbase syndicate to do what alliances should have been doing from day one (offering hard-to-find services in 0.0 and taking a cut) challenges my faith in your usually rational economic judgement.

You are making a warped comparison. ISS is more like say: Shell or Exxon, while the Alliances are more like nations. Exxon makes massive profits, and the US government is in deficit every year. Silly US government? (Or just about any western nation, not harping on US here). Most alliances have different objectives than ISS, thus economic profit is less important to them.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 11:25:00 +0000

Originally by: Guntaro
Originally by: Verone

Three words to the original poster that say it all :

RISK VS REWARD

Exactly the opposite! I would ask you where is the risk to alliance players if whole sections of space are blocked off and no outsider can enter? I say yes Risk vs Reward by letting there be more access routes into 0.0 space and make it harder to camp choke points with little risk.

The root of the issue here I feel lies with the game itself. While ingame, the reasons of defending territory and securing borders in 0.0 space seem legitimate enough, ultimately however what is happening is that many people cannot play a huge part of the game that they are paying for without first getting permission from other players and that is something I personally resent.

Why should I have to get permission from other players to play a part of a game that I am paying for?
The fact that the game mechanics seem to support this is a mistake and a flaw in the game in my opinion.
Especially with the growing numbers of players, I feel it is time to open up 0.0 space by adding more access routes.

Its quite obvious that you have never even bothered to go to 0.0 as alliance space is anything but "safe" or "risk-free."

The "OMG I'M PAYING FOR A GAME" attitude is absolutely stupid here. One of the unique features of EVE is that it allows players to claim their own space. You can go there, sure, but you won't be able to dock and it might be somewhat dangerous unless you stay in the off-route dead-end systems.

Don't like it? Don't play the game. Because this is the core of how EVE works: the players are the most important part of the game, and have the right to do what they want in 0.0.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Guntaro

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 10:58:00 +0000

Originally by: Verone

Three words to the original poster that say it all :

RISK VS REWARD

Exactly the opposite! I would ask you where is the risk to alliance players if whole sections of space are blocked off and no outsider can enter? I say yes Risk vs Reward by letting there be more access routes into 0.0 space and make it harder to camp choke points with little risk.

The root of the issue here I feel lies with the game itself. While ingame, the reasons of defending territory and securing borders in 0.0 space seem legitimate enough, ultimately however what is happening is that many people cannot play a huge part of the game that they are paying for without first getting permission from other players and that is something I personally resent.

Why should I have to get permission from other players to play a part of a game that I am paying for?
The fact that the game mechanics seem to support this is a mistake and a flaw in the game in my opinion.
Especially with the growing numbers of players, I feel it is time to open up 0.0 space by adding more access routes.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Lienzo

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 04:30:00 +0000

Originally by: Hoshi

I have to comment on this as this is a personal attack on me as I am part of the "& Co" above as a member of curse coallition.

Quote:
".... We have claimed a part of space just like many other, I fairly small part compared to most others as we only claim... as our space."

Can't deny this. The other main access point to the south is only a region or two away.

Quote:
Yes there happens to be a chokepoint and we defend that point as much as possible as we like all others want our space to be safe for our members.

Fortunately, the primary activity of your members seems to be making financial gain from this chokepoint. How exceptionally efficient.

Quote:
At present time we do no negotiatiate with individual corps for travel rights because we are still securing our borders and have little to gain from such negotations.

What point exactly was it in my post you wished to take exception with again?

Quote:
But what forces you to travel thru our space?

I don't think you could fathom the answer to this if it wasn't related to your own private conception of how everything the rest of the playerbase does must somehow fit in with your merest presence.

Also, in the future, I hope that when you attempt to pod me yet again, you and your fellows do it with a bit of animosity at least. Why do I not hesitate to write these words? BECAUSE YOU WERE GOING TO SHOOT AT ME ANYWAY. I didn't mind then, and I don't mind now.

You can't hope to have others not summarilly categorize you in a manner that doesn't flatter your self-narrative simply because you protest. You will be called "pirates" if you talk and act like pirates. You will be called "incompetent pirates" if you aren't any good at it. Seriously, unwind a bit and admit that you're just like the rest of us and shoot people simply because you can and because you want to.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Tony Fats

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 02:51:00 +0000

Edited by: Tony Fats on 27/02/2006 02:52:37
Saying that alliances don't need NBSI is like saying Eve doesn't need war.

So whats the point of the game?

Mining simulator?

Everquest in space?

I can tell most of you are refugees from PVE games who desperately wish that Eve would go carebear because it makes you cry when the camping meanies destroy your ship.

The essence of Eve is war.

Thats the whole point of needing builders and miners. Duh.

C.ocaine is expensive because it is illegal, thats how drug barons become rich. If everybody could grow it, it would be the same price as Parsley.

Crokite is expensive because its guarded, thats how miners get rich. If everybody could mine it, it would be the same price as Veld.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 01:32:00 +0000

Originally by: Fatima Nefestis
Originally by: "Lorth"
Alliences don't need industrialists, or miners really at all. What they need are people who a dedicated to a common cause, and are willing to work with the rest of the allience to achieve it. People who are industrial types, who expect to gain all the benifitc of allience life, with out putting in any sort of effort to defend those ideals, are the bane of 0.0.

Clarification requested by this newbie, please. Do you mean that industrialists/miners are not necessary at all to the success of a 0.0 territorial alliance, or that independent industrialists/miners - 'guests' of any given alliance - are not necessary for operation in 0.0? I've been operating under the assumption thus far than an industrial base of some sort is necessary for any alliance that wants to claim territory.

Are industrialists by definition unable to make the contribution to an alliance's success necessary to justify their existence on 0.0, or is it simply industrial corporations that want access to the resources in an alliance's space largely for their own gain that are unwilling to contribute? Would an industrial-oriented corporation be able to justify its existence as part of an alliance by manufacturing purely for the other corporations of that alliance - placing the needs of the alliance in terms of ships, modules, POS, etc. before their desire to maximise their own profit - or is there simply no place in an alliance for a corp that isn't first and foremost combat oriented?

I just want to be sure of what the relationship between combat pilots and industrialists in 0.0 genuinely is, and correct any misconceptions I've been carrying around thus far - I've been looking at alliances as something akin to the domains of feudal warlords, with corporations operating under some sort of liege/vassal system, but if that's a bad comparison I want to know so I can ditch it and rethink where I want to go and how I eventually want to get into 0.0.

The industrial base of an alliance is extremely important. A good alliance can not only fight, but its members have the ISK and minerals to fund that fight. The most powerful alliances, like BoB, have enough resources that they worry more about shiplosses hurting their killboard numbers than they worry about ISK.

Most alliances have very solid industrial bases that they would not exist without.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 01:30:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Most of the time those who talk about "pirates" in 0.0 call them merely "PvPers". If killing in 0.0 for fun and profit, then hell even Burn Eden are pirates. There are countless corporations that would then be put under the "pirate" banner when they really aren't.[

It depends how you define pirates. I would say BE are a pirate corp. We talk dirty and have no respect for any laws or soveirgnty. Living day to day, preying on the weak. We do a little bit of sentry tanking and low sec ganking now and then but we keep our Sec status' above -1.9.

When I here the term PVPers, I think of ganksquads of hacs, inties and AFs. BE fly mostly battleships and are one of the few corps who venture deep into enemy space in them in very small numbers.

I haven't looked up ther word in the dictionary but I think we fall under the category.

Actually you're probably right. BE is definitely more "pirate" than most 0.0 PvP corps.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Shin Ra

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 01:27:00 +0000

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Most of the time those who talk about "pirates" in 0.0 call them merely "PvPers". If killing in 0.0 for fun and profit, then hell even Burn Eden are pirates. There are countless corporations that would then be put under the "pirate" banner when they really aren't.[

It depends how you define pirates. I would say BE are a pirate corp. We talk dirty and have no respect for any laws or soveirgnty. Living day to day, preying on the weak. We do a little bit of sentry tanking and low sec ganking now and then but we keep our Sec status' above -1.9.

When I here the term PVPers, I think of ganksquads of hacs, inties and AFs. BE fly mostly battleships and are one of the few corps who venture deep into enemy space in them in very small numbers.

I haven't looked up ther word in the dictionary but I think we fall under the category.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Hoshi

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 01:26:00 +0000

Industrialists can be very useful to a 0.0 alliance, specially if they that's what they try to do, be useful to the alliance instead of making a profit of their own.

But I would not say industrials are needed for a 0.0 alliance. You don't need industrials to put up a pos if it's only purpose is for defence or offence. You only need them if you want to make money from the pos.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Fatima Nefestis

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 00:35:00 +0000

Originally by: "Lorth"
Alliences don't need industrialists, or miners really at all. What they need are people who a dedicated to a common cause, and are willing to work with the rest of the allience to achieve it. People who are industrial types, who expect to gain all the benifitc of allience life, with out putting in any sort of effort to defend those ideals, are the bane of 0.0.

Clarification requested by this newbie, please. Do you mean that industrialists/miners are not necessary at all to the success of a 0.0 territorial alliance, or that independent industrialists/miners - 'guests' of any given alliance - are not necessary for operation in 0.0? I've been operating under the assumption thus far than an industrial base of some sort is necessary for any alliance that wants to claim territory.

Are industrialists by definition unable to make the contribution to an alliance's success necessary to justify their existence on 0.0, or is it simply industrial corporations that want access to the resources in an alliance's space largely for their own gain that are unwilling to contribute? Would an industrial-oriented corporation be able to justify its existence as part of an alliance by manufacturing purely for the other corporations of that alliance - placing the needs of the alliance in terms of ships, modules, POS, etc. before their desire to maximise their own profit - or is there simply no place in an alliance for a corp that isn't first and foremost combat oriented?

I just want to be sure of what the relationship between combat pilots and industrialists in 0.0 genuinely is, and correct any misconceptions I've been carrying around thus far - I've been looking at alliances as something akin to the domains of feudal warlords, with corporations operating under some sort of liege/vassal system, but if that's a bad comparison I want to know so I can ditch it and rethink where I want to go and how I eventually want to get into 0.0.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Mon, 27 Feb 2009 00:07:00 +0000

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 27/02/2006 00:07:44

Originally by: Drizit
Originally by: Dark Shikari
P.S. There are no pirates in 0.0, by definition, as a pirate is someone who kills for profit in low security space.

Shikari, I am very surprised at a remark like that coming from you.

Pirates operate anywhere an everywhere. The definition is as you say, someone who kills for profit. But anywhere, not just in low sec. The only distinction between high sec and low sec is the level of retribution form the authorities. I won't even mention the completely lawless 0.0 since there are no authorities as such. However, piracy is piracy no matter which way you look at it.

Pirates in RL used to roam international waters to avoid any particular government taking arms against them. Their approach and methods were exactly the same and pirates they were nonetheless.

Also, as someone said, respectable amounts of ISK can be made in 0.0 so there's more potential for profit from piracy there than anywhere else. Most of Empire, even low sec is populated by people with little or no financial backing. Like myself, I have a BS but it cost me dearly and I have only about 100K isk left until I can find a way to make more. Since many of the low sec population are noobs trying to make a start, pirates there are little more than griefers since the pickings are not great and the targets are easy and the approach is similar to using a shotgun to kill a mouse.

Most of the time those who talk about "pirates" in 0.0 call them merely "PvPers". If killing in 0.0 for fun and profit, then hell even Burn Eden are pirates. There are countless corporations that would then be put under the "pirate" banner when they really aren't.

Originally by: Alexis DeTocqueville
Originally by: Dark Shikari

You seem to misunderstand.

The ISS doesn't claim space.

Do you know where their profits come from?

PvPers from neighboring space-claimining alliances buying stuff so that they can NBSI.

I'm aware ISS doesn't claim space, they're focused on making outposts. The bit about where they get their income is irrelevant, if alliances had done it to begin with, they'd be rolling in the profits, but they're not. What about wars? A neutral alliance that sold to both sides would make a huge amount of money.

Your loss.

Well a certain member of my corp is currently making a huge amount of money doing exactly that in our space.

I would rather have our alliance making the money than someone else unrelated making money off us.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Drizit

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 23:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Dark Shikari
P.S. There are no pirates in 0.0, by definition, as a pirate is someone who kills for profit in low security space.

Shikari, I am very surprised at a remark like that coming from you.

Pirates operate anywhere an everywhere. The definition is as you say, someone who kills for profit. But anywhere, not just in low sec. The only distinction between high sec and low sec is the level of retribution form the authorities. I won't even mention the completely lawless 0.0 since there are no authorities as such. However, piracy is piracy no matter which way you look at it.

Pirates in RL used to roam international waters to avoid any particular government taking arms against them. Their approach and methods were exactly the same and pirates they were nonetheless.

Also, as someone said, respectable amounts of ISK can be made in 0.0 so there's more potential for profit from piracy there than anywhere else. Most of Empire, even low sec is populated by people with little or no financial backing. Like myself, I have a BS but it cost me dearly and I have only about 100K isk left until I can find a way to make more. Since many of the low sec population are noobs trying to make a start, pirates there are little more than griefers since the pickings are not great and the targets are easy and the approach is similar to using a shotgun to kill a mouse.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Alexis DeTocqueville

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 23:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Dark Shikari

You seem to misunderstand.

The ISS doesn't claim space.

Do you know where their profits come from?

PvPers from neighboring space-claimining alliances buying stuff so that they can NBSI.

I'm aware ISS doesn't claim space, they're focused on making outposts. The bit about where they get their income is irrelevant, if alliances had done it to begin with, they'd be rolling in the profits, but they're not. What about wars? A neutral alliance that sold to both sides would make a huge amount of money.

Your loss.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Verone

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 23:42:00 +0000

Three words to the original poster that say it all :

RISK VS REWARD

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 23:36:00 +0000

Originally by: Alexis DeTocqueville
Edited by: Alexis DeTocqueville on 26/02/2006 15:48:29
Originally by: Dark Shikari

I think its quite clear that NBSI is the best policy.

Strategically, yes. Economically, no. Just look at how ISS is rolling in profits. Why it took an independent starbase syndicate to do what alliances should have been doing from day one (offering hard-to-find services in 0.0 and taking a cut) challenges my faith in your usually rational economic judgement.

You seem to misunderstand.

The ISS doesn't claim space.

Do you know where their profits come from?

PvPers from neighboring space-claimining alliances buying stuff so that they can NBSI.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Lorth

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 23:03:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka

Without being ganked by who? The alliance I joined? Okay. That's dandy. But what if someone or other decides that this is a nice day to gank a couple members of my corp and does so successfully?

My bet would be that my corp would just get told to suck it up and live on.

If I join an alliance and pay them I expect some sort of services in return. Like basic security. That's not much to ask for.

If I get no services in return I'm just paying a ransom to another group of pirates. That's how I see it.

I had to reply to this one.

Joining an allience expecting some sort of service from them, has been the downfall of most of the dead allience's in eve to date. Take for example xetic, a group of 5-6000 people, most of whom where there for them selves, excepting the rest to do the dirty work for them.

Paying an allience for acess to thier space is exactly that. You should expect nothing more in return, simply because you are offering nothing in return at all. The fee you pay, is ushally very small compard to the isk you bring out from the area. I would venture to guess that for the most part, 'guests' of alliences do far more harm to the area then they pay for, in terms of popping roids etc...

Victor, your attitude (and I'm not trying to flame here) is exactly why most allience fail. People with the same ideals as you have joined alliences in the past, and are constantly a source of fustration for them. Mining whne they should be PVP'ing, allowing free ganks to the enemy, and all the while demanding they be protected as if they are worht something to the allience.

Alliences don't need industrialists, or miners really at all. What they need are people who a dedicated to a common cause, and are willing to work with the rest of the allience to achieve it. People who are industrial types, who expect to gain all the benifitc of allience life, with out putting in any sort of effort to defend those ideals, are the bane of 0.0.

You do not ever join an allience and expect services in return. Asking for anything, which you are not willing to do your self, is always far to much to ask for. Which is why most of the successfull alliences in the game today are very quick to kick corps/people who display the attidudes you do.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Alexis DeTocqueville

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 15:47:00 +0000

Edited by: Alexis DeTocqueville on 26/02/2006 15:48:29

Originally by: Dark Shikari

I think its quite clear that NBSI is the best policy.

Strategically, yes. Economically, no. Just look at how ISS is rolling in profits. Why it took an independent starbase syndicate to do what alliances should have been doing from day one (offering hard-to-find services in 0.0 and taking a cut) challenges my faith in your usually rational economic judgement.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Marie Trudeau

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 15:21:00 +0000

Edited by: Marie Trudeau on 26/02/2006 15:24:08

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/02/2006 14:37:28
Originally by: Marie Trudeau
Contrary to popular belief and practice in 0.0 space, claiming space and having an NBSI policy are not necessary. What is necessary is the ability to defend against threats, and not everyone coming into an area of space is a threat. Jericho Fraction survives and thrives in 0.0 space, but claims no space at all, and does not practice an NBSI policy of any type.

Well you seem to have contradicted yourself.

You don't have an NBSI policy but you don't claim space. That's like saying "oh we don't need guns, because we're not fighting a war! Nobody needs guns then!"

If you claimed space, you pretty much need an NBSI policy, or you won't be claiming space for very long.

But as said before, if you don't want to claim space, there are quite a number of large NPC station regions. Anyone who "claims" these can usually be ignored (with the exception of Delve) because its impossible to stop people from doing what they want there. If I wanted to I could probably go on a 2 week NPCing trip in Stain

No my point was that one need not claim space, or be NBSI, to live permanently in 0.0 and prosper there (as much as those who claim the same space do). That may involve being involved in fighting with those who claim said space, depending on diplomatic efforts and openness. To the extent you aren't suggesting anything to the contrary, I think we agree.
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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by David Hope

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 14:40:00 +0000

1) ISS Borealis is in Pure Blind, not Providence. But if you were to go there, none of the local alliances would shoot you as there isn't an NBSI policy in the area.

2) Your opinion on NBSI will change five seconds after you get ganked by a battleship in secure alliance space, and the pvpers at the bubble camp say "well hey! He looked alright. I'm just giving people the benefit of the doubt!"

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Gray Carmicheal

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 14:27:00 +0000

My entire corp is made of mostly noobs, and we all live happily in 0.0, along with the other noobs filling the other 5 corps of our informal alliance.

Making friends > soloing.

My sig was CONCORDOKKENED. I blame Wrangler H4x.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 14:13:00 +0000

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/02/2006 14:13:13

Originally by: Marie Trudeau
Contrary to popular belief and practice in 0.0 space, claiming space and having an NBSI policy are not necessary. What is necessary is the ability to defend against threats, and not everyone coming into an area of space is a threat. Jericho Fraction survives and thrives in 0.0 space, but claims no space at all, and does not practice an NBSI policy of any type.

Well you seem to have contradicted yourself.

You don't have an NBSI policy but you don't claim space. That's like saying "oh we don't need guns, because we're not fighting a war! Nobody needs guns then!"

If you claimed space, you pretty much need an NBSI policy, or you won't be claiming space for very long.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Marie Trudeau

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 12:38:00 +0000

Contrary to popular belief and practice in 0.0 space, claiming space and having an NBSI policy are not necessary. What is necessary is the ability to defend against threats, and not everyone coming into an area of space is a threat. Jericho Fraction survives and thrives in 0.0 space, but claims no space at all, and does not practice an NBSI policy of any type.
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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sun, 26 Feb 2009 09:03:00 +0000

"So you think that an alliance should let anyone, including their enemies in?"

Don't be a silly tachikoma.

"P.S. There are no pirates in 0.0, by definition, as a pirate is someone who kills for profit in low security space."

So how do you call someone who ganks your ship in a 0.0 space and belongs to a know pirate corporation? If SNIGG ganked you out in 0.0 would they not be pirates?

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Hoshi

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 18:43:00 +0000

Originally by: Lienzo
The groups that exercise NBSI policy at 0.0 access points, Tyrell & Co. for example, are definitely pirates. Not that there's anything wrong with that. They're just bored pkers with no real agenda behind their actions like the rest of us. Most of these groups are no more interested in negotiating with potential targets than the targets are aware how they might do so. That also is intelligible as one must account for what new allies have to offer. Too many people in an alliance in one area and the npcs become scarce.

I have to comment on this as this is a personal attack on me as I am part of the "& Co" above as a member of curse coallition.

No we are not pirates, no more than BoB or Iron or any other similar 0.0 alliance are. We have claimed a part of space just like many other, I fairly small part compared to most others as we only claim 2 constellations. And we are now working hard to secure this as our space.

Yes there happens to be a chokepoint and we defend that point as much as possible as we like all others want our space to be safe for our members. At present time we do no negotiatiate with individual corps for travel rights because we are still securing our borders and have little to gain from such negotations.

But what forces you to travel thru our space? While it is a chokepoint there are still several other possible paths towards the south, thru providance is the most obvious. If I where to travel thru any other alliance space which we have not negotiated standings with in advanved I would expect to get shot at, what makes our space different from others so that we are not allowed to secure it?
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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 18:14:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka
"I think its quite clear that NBSI is the best policy. If you want to come into the space, you can negotiate a NAP so that you become blue. If you refuse to do so, you're probably up to no good."

We obviously have different ideas on what an alliance should represent and how it should be run. Lets leave it at that.

So you think that an alliance should let anyone, including their enemies in?

Because when you let people in without specific negotiation for each group, you will let in enemies. And they will destroy you.

P.S. There are no pirates in 0.0, by definition, as a pirate is someone who kills for profit in low security space.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Lienzo

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 17:35:00 +0000

Most places in 0.0 are chokepoints by my experience. 0.0 is less open grid behind the access points and moreso long, occasionally intersecting strings of highways with odd deadends hanging off them.

It would not be a challenge in many cases for a group to secure a "corner" of space by selecting these pockets and blocking the entrances. Of course, most groups out there don't bother to secure their borders because they mostly don't care due to the low traffic. NBSI policy scarcely applies to gatecamping for most deep space groups. You generally see gatecamps where one expects general traffic or a specific set of foes or targets to pass through in the near future.

The groups that exercise NBSI policy at 0.0 access points, Tyrell & Co. for example, are definitely pirates. Not that there's anything wrong with that. They're just bored pkers with no real agenda behind their actions like the rest of us. Most of these groups are no more interested in negotiating with potential targets than the targets are aware how they might do so. That also is intelligible as one must account for what new allies have to offer. Too many people in an alliance in one area and the npcs become scarce.

What we need is more pockets of space out in 0.0 and more difficult to control access points. This does not simply mean more 2-gate systems leading into 0.0, but instead, more gates leading into important systems as well. Every node should link to two low sec systems as well as two or more other 0.0 systems.

It's fine to have chokepoints as they will always be needed in targetpoor areas, especially at gates that are off the solar plane. However, all zone transitions need to be massively parallel. The systems that compose the border between high sec and low sec, and between low sec and no sec need to have multiple gates per system.

Transition zones are always more dangerous than deep space only because it is like shooting fish in a barrel in those situations. This will be best for both prey and predators alike, because as people have a harder time controlling borders, the non-affiliated will become emboldened, and the pool of potential random encounters will rise, especially in deep space.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 16:59:00 +0000

"I think its quite clear that NBSI is the best policy. If you want to come into the space, you can negotiate a NAP so that you become blue. If you refuse to do so, you're probably up to no good."

We obviously have different ideas on what an alliance should represent and how it should be run. Lets leave it at that.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 16:52:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka
"ISS, however, doesn't claim any territory. They own sovereignty, but they don't actually claim the space. They have NAPs with nearby alliances to allow that sovereignty and to run their POSs/outposts, but they do not actually claim any space."

I know that. What I am trying to say is that we need alliances with a more open policy then NBSI. NBSI is not really the best on to have in place at all times. I think that is quite clear.

I think its quite clear that NBSI is the best policy. If you want to come into the space, you can negotiate a NAP so that you become blue. If you refuse to do so, you're probably up to no good.

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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 16:42:00 +0000

"ISS, however, doesn't claim any territory. They own sovereignty, but they don't actually claim the space. They have NAPs with nearby alliances to allow that sovereignty and to run their POSs/outposts, but they do not actually claim any space."

I know that. What I am trying to say is that we need alliances with a more open policy then NBSI. NBSI is not really the best on to have in place at all times. I think that is quite clear.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 16:31:00 +0000

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 25/02/2006 16:30:51

Originally by: Victor Valka

To end this:

I'll hope I'll be around to see the day when the space claiming alliances become more open and don't see the need to gank anyone in sight that is not blue, when free trade is possible between all. We need more alliances like ISS!

ISS, however, doesn't claim any territory. They own sovereignty, but they don't actually claim the space. They have NAPs with nearby alliances to allow that sovereignty and to run their POSs/outposts, but they do not actually claim any space.

There was a totally free alliance a while back: it was called the Coalition of Free Stars. It did not last very long. Its reincarnation, the United Free Stars, hardly lasted a month or two.

What ISS is doing is allowing free trade in areas that are not as restrictively held by creating open-access outposts. Providence, for example, is not claimed by anyone (ISS Borealis) and the area of Catch that Marginis is in is relatively open also.

Originally by: Victor Valka
Demmit, Dark! You are, like, in every second thread on New Citizen Q&A!

Every second? I must be slacking.

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What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 16:14:00 +0000

Okay. I feel a bit ganked, but I have to admit that Hoshi nail me.

"Yes you are often on your own but that's because current game mechanics doesn't allow for alliances to completely secure their space. No matter how hard you work pirates and roving enemy gangs will always slip thru."

Mostly the game mechanics part. Alliances really don't have the tools needed, right now. It's true.

However, I still believe that some alliances are abusing the NBSI policy very badly and not to the best results for them or others involved.

"No they aren't, at all. You are talking about something you know absolutely nothing about whatsoever and by doing so you are insulting a lot of very friendly organizations."

Okay. Bad statement from me. I'll take that one back.

To end this:

I'll hope I'll be around to see the day when the space claiming alliances become more open and don't see the need to gank anyone in sight that is not blue, when free trade is possible between all. We need more alliances like ISS!

Sigh. A guy can dream.

Excuse my ramblings.

P.S.

Demmit, Dark! You are, like, in every second thread on New Citizen Q&A!

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Cmdr Sy

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 15:27:00 +0000

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Lilith is talking about a seperate issue: how to operate in 0.0 WITHOUT being in an alliance.

Doing so requires:

1. A region with NPC stations.
2. Persistence.
3. Being very, very careful.

Having lived with -V- in GW, to this I would add a set of instas, a copy of CounterStrike, internet radio, and some friends down the pub.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Hoshi

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 15:22:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka
Edited by: Victor Valka on 25/02/2006 14:30:27
"So you loose your ships to pirates and roving enemy gangs from time to time but as long as you have some kind of sense and keep an eye on the defence channels most 0.0 residents have setup for their area (channels which all friendlies in the area use to report enemy sitings etc.) even that should be a rare occurrence."

So basically, I'll still be on my own with slightly better odds, and if the defence force didn't do their job, well, too bad for me.

Actually, I'm just trying to show that alliances are just big gangs of pirates hiding behind a thin facade of NBSI policies. Or rather their so called PvP corporations are, which are usually the core corporations of an alliance. By joining them you have effectivly paid a ransom and get nothing in return, other then not being shot at by one group or another while doing your thing.

If we look at most alliances as social groups, well, they really suck. Like someone pointed out, they are like street gangs. They should be more.

I was just being hypotetical to better illustrate my point.

Just tell me, how alliances are any different from pirates? Other the fact that they do it on a far larger scale.

They are far more; an alliance is a group of people working together towards a common goal. What this goal is varies from group to group but for most 0.0 alliances this goal includes etching out a place for themselves that they can call home in 0.0 and keep that area as safe as possible for their members.

Yes you are often on your own but that's because current game mechanics doesn't allow for alliances to completely secure their space. No matter how hard you work pirates and roving enemy gangs will always slip thru. They do their best by camping the chokepoints and killing everything not blue. But camping is boring (no it's not fun to sit there and kill mostly defenceless people) and as such it isn't done even nearly as much as would be needed to secure their space.

If you do not share the same goal and visions as the rest of the alliance then you shouldn't join it. If you are just there to reap the benefits of 0.0 then paying a small sum to be allowed to use their space is a better option. This might seem like mafia racketing or pirating on their part but you forget the huge amount of work they have done to make that space theirs. You are paying for the privilege of not to having to do the same work.
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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 15:15:00 +0000

Lilith is talking about a seperate issue: how to operate in 0.0 WITHOUT being in an alliance.

Doing so requires:

1. A region with NPC stations.
2. Persistence.
3. Being very, very careful.

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What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Lillith Blackheart

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 15:13:00 +0000

Oh, addendum:

Quote:
Okay. Lets suppose I am a CEO of a corp and I choose to open a diplomatic channel with alliance X. What would they ask of my corp for rights to live in what they claim as their territory?

Well, as Shikari said, it's dependant on what the alliance wants. A lot of the careful negotiation we've had to get into areas we're friendly with (without joining the alliances wheee) is that we don't mine their minerals and that we don't go ratting through the area, which coincides with our agenda, so . . .

A smaller pirate alliance that was down in our area made the agreement as simple as "You don't shoot us and we don't shoot you. Fair enough?"

Me.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Lillith Blackheart

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 15:09:00 +0000

I spend the majority of my time in 0.0, Stain, Delve, you name it. :| I've been here 3 or 4 months, 1.5-2 of which were in 0.0

It's not inaccessible, it's just tougher to get there. As it should be.

Really, though, there's two main problems if you're heading towards Delve: First one is Huff. Don't even bother trying to go into Vehan unless you hear that TKI/CAIN's alliance (or the Imperium Alliance, too) are heading in there to clean people out of there, because you're going to run headlong into a gate camp. And those fellows are very good at what they do. (They got me once, I admit it.)

The second one is BoB. Those guys own half of the map, and they're relentless. Huff may have detonated my ship, but my pod got away to live another day. A couple of BoBians (is that the right vernacular guys?) chased me through ten systems to pod me when I was passing through. I almost got away until she recruited one of the other BoBians in the area to tackle me just before the gate. . .

But it's all claimed space. My timing on it was bad, and I was trying to not open fire and just bust through, but didn't make it. Won't make that mistake again.

If you time your runs right, you can zip through without any trouble.

Watch your map closely. Specifically pay attention to Average activity in last 30 minutes, ships/pods destroyed in the last hour, and number of people docked and active. That will help you chart your path through.

And, by the by, they don't usually cover all the chokepoints. Like the choke from Querios to Delve is rarely covered, because they have the choke covered going into Querios, so why cover both?

Once you get past the primary camp, assuming that they don't chase you for 15 systems ( <3 Porro! ) you're usually home free.

Me.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Cmdr Sy

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 15:05:00 +0000

Actually I originally made the gang comparison, and perhaps the meaning was a bit unclear.

When I said 0.0 Alliances are like street gangs, I didn't mean disorganised hoodlums who break the windows of cars and steal stereos. It's a far more complex society, rather like an organised crime family.

There is a territorial claim, and the alliance runs a number of profit-making enterprises on its territory. This includes NPCing, complex farming, mining, POS industry, etc. There is additional money to be made franchising out certain operations, by selling mining/hunting passes. The people involved are known to each other because they took a risk by signing up and regularly cooperate in these activities.

Obviously you can expect tensions between neighbouring organisations over territorial boundaries and 'respect' issues (who ganked whom, who smacktalked whom, etc).

Equally obvious, you cannot walk into a hierarchical society such as this, prejudging it as a homogenous mass of thugs, and expect to be left alone while getting rich on its property without paying your dues.

Now I have been in quite a few alliances in my time, and even my current carebear corp has an NPCing pass with one of them, so I know what I'm talking about. Not every alliance will be run on these principles, but essentially to make money off the turf, you have to buy your way into the family, either with ISK or contribution of time and loyal service.

If you want to live in 0.0, you have to "play the game", the player-driven social game, and not expect any favours from the Devs or those players who put in the time already.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Deja Thoris

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 14:42:00 +0000

Edited by: Deja Thoris on 25/02/2006 14:42:34
meh / cba

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 14:40:00 +0000

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 25/02/2006 14:41:36
You'll notice that in any good alliance you will know exactly where all enemy ganksquads are in the region at any time. You will know they're heading your way 30 minutes before they get there because everyone reports enemy sightings on the alliance's defense channel.

Thus, its not really possible to die to gankers if you're careful.

Quote:

If we look at most alliances as social groups, well, they really suck. Like someone pointed out, they are like street gangs. They should be more.

No they aren't, at all. You are talking about something you know absolutely nothing about whatsoever and by doing so you are insulting a lot of very friendly organizations.

You want to go into an alliance's space without even contacting them first for passage information and do whatever you want without contributing whatsoever.

Sounds like you're more of a "gang" than the alliances you're talking about.

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What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 14:29:00 +0000

Edited by: Victor Valka on 25/02/2006 14:30:27
"You gain easy access to their space. I think you undervalue how much isk can be made in 0.0 in a short time."

I'm well aware of the TONS of ISK one can make in 0.0 space in a short timespan. Been there and done that. Without being a part of an alliance. I want to know the actual benefits of joining if any exist. So far, nobody has given me one beyond not getting shot at by a particular group.

"So you loose your ships to pirates and roving enemy gangs from time to time but as long as you have some kind of sense and keep an eye on the defence channels most 0.0 residents have setup for their area (channels which all friendlies in the area use to report enemy sitings etc.) even that should be a rare occurrence."

So basically, I'll still be on my own with slightly better odds, and if the defence force didn't do their job, well, too bad for me.

"Also in a way it does seem to want to both have the cake and to eat it, on one hand you don't want alliances to kill neutrals but on the other you want said alliances to keep you so safe any potential hostility from said neutrals. I hope you see the paradox this creates."

Actually, I'm just trying to show that alliances are just big gangs of pirates hiding behind a thin facade of NBSI policies. Or rather their so called PvP corporations are, which are usually the core corporations of an alliance. By joining them you have effectivly paid a ransom and get nothing in return, other then not being shot at by one group or another while doing your thing.

If we look at most alliances as social groups, well, they really suck. Like someone pointed out, they are like street gangs. They should be more.

I was just being hypotetical to better illustrate my point.

Just tell me, how alliances are any different from pirates? Other the fact that they do it on a far larger scale.

"I think you're missing the fact that joining an alliance (usually) allows you to mine, rat and run a POS in their terrority. All three are vastly more lucrative than doing the same in empire."

I'm not missing that fact. I can do the first two without being a part of an alliance that claims the territory and if I'm smart about it they won't know that I'm there. Running a POS is a bit more tricky, but it can be done. If I'm not in the allaince I just got one more group of people that could come to shoot me to worry about. That's that.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Hoshi

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 13:41:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka
Trac3rt:

As I understand from your post, GoonFleet has a NAP witch some alliance or another. Which is a bit different from what I'm trying to figure out. None the less, your input is welcome.

I'm trying to figure out the benefits of joining an alliance full-time, paying a tax and helping them in their agenda, with only service fully rendered from them and their current allies being not shooting my corporation's memebers. Which is, hell, piracy at its best!

Equal opportunity to contribute to someone elses agenda ain't a benefit either!

If you think I'm being silly here, please, show me the light.

You gain easy access to their space. I think you undervalue how much isk can be made in 0.0 in a short time. So you loose your ships to pirates and roving enemy gangs from time to time but as long as you have some kind of sense and keep an eye on the defence channels most 0.0 residents have setup for their area (channels which all friendlies in the area use to report enemy sitings etc.) even that should be a rare occurrence.

If you utilize the access you have been given you can get enough isk to pay for new ships with just a few hours work. A good day of npcing I can make over 200m isk in bounties alone (add loot to that).

It's all about risk vs reward. By living in 0.0 you always take a risk every time you undock even if you are deep into friendly territory but the potential reward makes it worth it.

Also in a way it does seem to want to both have the cake and to eat it, on one hand you don't want alliances to kill neutrals but on the other you want said alliances to keep you so safe any potential hostility from said neutrals. I hope you see the paradox this creates.
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Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Prestis

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 13:31:00 +0000

I think you're missing the fact that joining an alliance (usually) allows you to mine, rat and run a POS in their terrority. All three are vastly more lucrative than doing the same in empire.

And it's not like there is any neutral 0.0 you could do them in just for your own profit. Not without constant harrasment anyway.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 12:59:00 +0000

Trac3rt:

As I understand from your post, GoonFleet has a NAP witch some alliance or another. Which is a bit different from what I'm trying to figure out. None the less, your input is welcome.

I'm trying to figure out the benefits of joining an alliance full-time, paying a tax and helping them in their agenda, with only service fully rendered from them and their current allies being not shooting my corporation's memebers. Which is, hell, piracy at its best!

Equal opportunity to contribute to someone elses agenda ain't a benefit either!

If you think I'm being silly here, please, show me the light.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Trac3rt

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 12:16:00 +0000

I think you have the wrong idea of what you will get out of it.

An Alliance claims an area of space, all unknowns will be KOS since anyone in 0.0 has an agenda, and if they don't want to negotiate with the owners then they are usually up to no good. That 'unarmed hauler' mentioned earlier in the thread could be carrying a POS or a number of ships for an attacking force to use.

When you negotiate with an alliance, you will negotiate the terms in which you are allowed to operate. You are in their space, mining their ore, so expect to pay for that luxury.

I cannot go into too much detail on Goonfleet (so I will speak in very general terms), but our agreement allows us access to only specific belts for mining, and specific systems for ratting. We are not 'entitled' to defense, if we don't notice hostiles in system and get ganked, then that is our fault and nothing will be reimbursed. As our competency and participation in PvP improves, we make ourselves more valuable to the landlords in terms of securing their space, and can negotiate better contracts. This is how I expect other alliances who allow residents in their space run their operations as well.

I expect the number of corps in the area can change things, since there are only a limited amount of resources to share. For example, if two or three large corps move into the area, you may lose belts or have rent go up to keep them. If two or three large corps move out, you may be able to gain access to more belts for less. It is up to the Landlords to strike this balance to try and keep everyone happy. Too many people can lead to people paying too much for too little, which makes people leave.

If you are a corp prepared to PvP and defend space, you are a valuable asset to whoever owns the space, and will probably get preferrential treatment to that miner corp who just dock and do nothing at the first sign of trouble.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 11:36:00 +0000

"Most alliances out there only give back what you put into them."

That's a dodgy statement. But lets suppose my corp forks over a large amount of ISK into alliances wallet and does a lot of industrial and logistic activities that benefit the whole alliance a good deal. But. Our PvP wing sucks. They couldn't scramble for their life! Hell! Half of them don't know that ctrl+click on the overview lock a target!

Taking that all into account, what are the chances that the alliance would assign a dozen top notch combat pilots to guard my corps operations (mining ops and cargo ships) when we need it? And I mean when we need it. Not when they think it would be a fun thing to do

"Well, if you joined an alliance, any enemy gank squad can expect a response from the residents in a matter of minutes."

Before or after they would have ganked my mining op? If after, would the guys and gals that lost their ships and possibly pods get fully reimbursed for their loses due to the fact that the alliances defance force didn't quite do their job?

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Cmdr Sy

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 09:32:00 +0000

0.0 alliances band together for mutual protection. It's like being in a street gang, there's other gangs who will try to kill you, but at least there's plenty of locals who have your back covered.

Newcomers make everyone nervous, so they get attacked. So long as you are displaying some sort of political alignment, there will be some place where you are welcomed. It's the rules of the social game.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Lost Minnity

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 08:55:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka
"Access to their space without being ganked for starters."

Without being ganked by who? The alliance I joined? Okay. That's dandy. But what if someone or other decides that this is a nice day to gank a couple members of my corp and does so successfully?

My bet would be that my corp would just get told to suck it up and live on.

If I join an alliance and pay them I expect some sort of services in return. Like basic security. That's not much to ask for.

If I get no services in return I'm just paying a ransom to another group of pirates. That's how I see it.

Well, if you joined an alliance, any enemy gank squad can expect a response from the residents in a matter of minutes.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Alexis DeTocqueville

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 05:01:00 +0000

Edited by: Alexis DeTocqueville on 25/02/2006 05:01:04

Originally by: Dark Shikari

To be exact, FIX's method for participation is a tax per member of a corporation (10m I think) per month. 2m per month discount for each killmail participation. So if you went out in a gang and engaged Stain Alliance with 5 members in the gang, each of which got on 7 killmails, that would be a 70m discount just for a few hours' fun.

Quote:

Other alliances have a "citizen corporation" system where corporations get +5 standing but don't officially join the alliance. These corporations gain access to their space with certain requirements. For example, [5] and BoB I believe run (or have run in the past) many refinery stations in 0.0 and charge(d) a small tax on the refining. Other alliances treat citizen corps just as if they were alliance members, except unofficially.

Service means citizenship! Sign up for Federal Service today!

Oh Heinlein, is there ANYTHING your novels will not predict in the realm of science fiction?

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by F'nog

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 04:43:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka
"Access to their space without being ganked for starters."

Without being ganked by who? The alliance I joined? Okay. That's dandy. But what if someone or other decides that this is a nice day to gank a couple members of my corp and does so successfully?

My bet would be that my corp would just get told to suck it up and live on.

If I join an alliance and pay them I expect some sort of services in return. Like basic security. That's not much to ask for.

If I get no services in return I'm just paying a ransom to another group of pirates. That's how I see it.

Most alliances out there only give back what you put into them. If all you do is mine and rat hunt without contributing anything to the alliance (taxes don't really count as most alliances make very little real profit from them) like alliance-wide MOs to fund building or defense, then don't expect them to defend you.

Originally by: Bl4zer
But, cmon, this is the Eve forums, we don't let facts get in the way of pointless speculation.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 03:51:00 +0000

"Access to their space without being ganked for starters."

Without being ganked by who? The alliance I joined? Okay. That's dandy. But what if someone or other decides that this is a nice day to gank a couple members of my corp and does so successfully?

My bet would be that my corp would just get told to suck it up and live on.

If I join an alliance and pay them I expect some sort of services in return. Like basic security. That's not much to ask for.

If I get no services in return I'm just paying a ransom to another group of pirates. That's how I see it.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Deja Thoris

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 03:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka
As in, what do we get for paying the rent?

Access to their space without being ganked for starters.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 03:01:00 +0000

Okay. Seems very reasonable so far.

Since you are a mamber of FIX, lets stick with FIX as the example alliance.

Suppose my corp joins FIX. What would be expected (asides from the tax, which, I admit, is very reasonable and with nice discount opportunities) of us and what are the basic benefits? As in, what do we get for paying the rent?

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 02:17:00 +0000

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 25/02/2006 02:17:03

Originally by: Victor Valka
"I don't understand why anyone who had a valid reason for being in an alliance's space would refuse to call up a diplomat to gain access . Anyone who doesn't is obviously up to no good."

Okay. Lets suppose I am a CEO of a corp and I choose to open a diplomatic channel with alliance X. What would they ask of my corp for rights to live in what they claim as their territory?

Different alliances have different policies.

An alliance like FIX would probably say that you'd have to officially join the alliance--which would most likely be no problem. All they'd ask is that you attempt to participate in at least some PvP ops.

To be exact, FIX's method for participation is a tax per member of a corporation (10m I think) per month. 2m per month discount for each killmail participation. So if you went out in a gang and engaged Stain Alliance with 5 members in the gang, each of which got on 7 killmails, that would be a 70m discount just for a few hours' fun. This was enacted to fund FIX's capital ship fleet and the like, and to encourage participation in PvP ops. There are also discounts for running a POS in FIX space and owning capital ships. As I said--most alliances have their own method of doing things.

Other alliances have a "citizen corporation" system where corporations get +5 standing but don't officially join the alliance. These corporations gain access to their space with certain requirements. For example, [5] and BoB I believe run (or have run in the past) many refinery stations in 0.0 and charge(d) a small tax on the refining. Other alliances treat citizen corps just as if they were alliance members, except unofficially.

[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior

What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 02:12:00 +0000

"I don't understand why anyone who had a valid reason for being in an alliance's space would refuse to call up a diplomat to gain access . Anyone who doesn't is obviously up to no good."

Okay. Lets suppose I am a CEO of a corp and I choose to open a diplomatic channel with alliance X. What would they ask of my corp for rights to live in what they claim as their territory?

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 02:00:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka

Trust me when I say, that blasting every single damn thing that comes through a choke-point gate makes you look like a bunch of pirates. And I dare you to tell me that there is no giggling on the TS when another ship bites the cosmic dust!

No, actually, its pretty boring.

Originally by: Victor Valka

I'm no asking you to let pirates roam free. I'm asking you to give people that have done nothing hostile a simple benefit of doubt. Like you pointed out in your post - being friendly and polite goes a long way.

In a long run, such policy could benefit the alliance more then the current NBSI policy.

Unfortunately it is obvious to anyone with any knowledge of EVE history that this doesn't work.

Not having an NBSI policy within ones own space generally dooms a territory-holding alliance.

I don't understand why anyone who had a valid reason for being in an alliance's space would refuse to call up a diplomat to gain access . Anyone who doesn't is obviously up to no good.

[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior

What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 01:50:00 +0000

Edited by: Victor Valka on 25/02/2006 01:54:43
Alright!

"In general, no offense, but it helps to actually have some experience on the topic at hand, before you go and discuss it."

I think it is obvious that this is not my first trip around the block. And I believe I know enough to discuss the topic at hand. I can, however, be unaware of some of the finer points of running an alliance. Bare with me, please.

And again, this thread is about 0.0 allainces and how their NBSI policy and Empire to 0.0 space choke-point gate-camping makes them look to outsiders. Especially new players.

Trust me when I say, that blasting every single damn thing that comes through a choke-point gate makes you look like a bunch of pirates. And I dare you to tell me that there is no giggling on the TS when another ship bites the cosmic dust!

"Once the point of contact is reached it's a bit late to begin discussions, considering that this would be at gunpoint. Far better to shoot first, shoot again, and ask no questions later. This at least guarantees that 15 minutes later you don't get a report that those unknowns that just zoomed through the area just ganked 4 mining barges and the tanker that were mining for alliance/friendly corp X."

I'm no asking you to let pirates roam free. I'm asking you to give people that have done nothing hostile a simple benefit of doubt. Like you pointed out in your post - being friendly and polite goes a long way.

In a long run, such policy could benefit the alliance more then the current NBSI policy.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Kai Lae

Sat, 25 Feb 2009 00:53:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka

You are assuming that people that pop an unarmed hauler (okay, so it might be a hauling alt for a real bad pirate boy) by a gate are defending their space.

You don't know how it works. And they most certianly are defending. Matter of fact, if a force jumps in, mixed warships, BS etc whatever, and there's a hauler in there, I'm going to call the hauler primary, not the battleships. Why? Because god only knows what he's hauling in there. It could be enough ammunition to literally fight a small war, or even worse, a POS that they could use to establish a foothold in the area and base attacks out of. Ever kill one? It's (A) difficult to do (B) takes forever and (C) can be very risky. As for shooting neutrals, the simple rule of thumb is that what, exactly, is a neutral? The answer is they don't exist. You have your enemies, and your friends, and that's it. A neutral corp is a potential hostile force that is just waiting to cause havoc to your operations. How do I know they're hostile you ask? Simple. If someone has a friendly disposition, they will do some homework and find out who's in the area, and contact them before showing up. You'd be suprised how far being actually polite can get you. People who don't do this show by default they don't give a damn about me, my corp, or alliance and basically think that I should pack sand. Once the point of contact is reached it's a bit late to begin discussions, considering that this would be at gunpoint. Far better to shoot first, shoot again, and ask no questions later. This at least guarantees that 15 minutes later you don't get a report that those unknowns that just zoomed through the area just ganked 4 mining barges and the tanker that were mining for alliance/friendly corp X. Don't confuse alliance territory defense policies with piracy. Alliances in general ignore anything not hostile outside their space, and profit motive with kills does not even figure into the equation. Pirates kill anything they can and are only interested in loot from the gankee. Matter of fact, this is why attempting to fight them is so fustrating (trust me we do it) because unless you're in something that presents no risk to them they will simply run. Fighting something that could possibly kill them has no profit in it. An alliance won't give a damn about that and will engage you if they think they can destroy you, simple as that.

In general, no offense, but it helps to actually have some experience on the topic at hand, before you go and discuss it.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Fri, 24 Feb 2009 21:12:00 +0000

"There is no such thing as a "neutral" in Eve.

Either you're operating for an alliance, or you are operating under your own authority, either way you're part of the food chain."

Okay. You got me there, mate.

Everyone has an agenda. But as long my agenda doesn't intervene with that of the alliance's I'm effectivly neutral to them.

How will my personal agenda effect an alliance in the future is hard to predict. It could harm the alliance or it could benefit them. Or it could leave them uneffected.

It's a gamble. And a risk. Like I said.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Tony Fats

Fri, 24 Feb 2009 20:25:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka
"This isn't true. Firmus Ixion has Stain Alliance, Finite Horizon, TSBS, and countless other enemies to deal with. Keeping our space secure is a full-time job."

This thread is mostly about camping choke-points from Empire to 0.0 and the aspect of piracy in that if you are doing it under an alliance's flag. I'm a bit vogue in that above quote.

That said. I think you misunderstood me. I'm in no way against defending what you claim as yours. It would be stupid not to. By all means, shoot your enemies, their supporters and obviously alts (no standing against agents and no employment history).

But there is no need to shoot neutrals. This is what gives 0.0 a bad name. This is why many people will stay the hell away from it. I understand that not shooting neutrals would be a big gamble for any alliance - a risk. But it could pay off for all involved.

That said. I think 0.0 alliances with NBSI policy are being a bit of carebears. They refuse to let anyone in because it's risky. And, oh, we can't have that.

"If you want access to space, there is no reason not to join the alliance other than to cover up the fact that you're a moocher."

Maybe people don't want alliances to force their style of play on people? Think about that. And I think we both know that most alliances will do just that. This is just not cool with some folks out there who wanna do their thing. And there is no shame in that.

"You spelled GRAMMAR wrong."

Oh, come on! Gimme a break! I was at work and the boss was coming! Honest!

There is no such thing as a "neutral" in Eve.

Either you're operating for an alliance, or you are operating under your own authority, either way you're part of the food chain.

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Victor Valka

Fri, 24 Feb 2009 19:20:00 +0000

"This isn't true. Firmus Ixion has Stain Alliance, Finite Horizon, TSBS, and countless other enemies to deal with. Keeping our space secure is a full-time job."

This thread is mostly about camping choke-points from Empire to 0.0 and the aspect of piracy in that if you are doing it under an alliance's flag. I'm a bit vogue in that above quote.

That said. I think you misunderstood me. I'm in no way against defending what you claim as yours. It would be stupid not to. By all means, shoot your enemies, their supporters and obviously alts (no standing against agents and no employment history).

But there is no need to shoot neutrals. This is what gives 0.0 a bad name. This is why many people will stay the hell away from it. I understand that not shooting neutrals would be a big gamble for any alliance - a risk. But it could pay off for all involved.

That said. I think 0.0 alliances with NBSI policy are being a bit of carebears. They refuse to let anyone in because it's risky. And, oh, we can't have that.

"If you want access to space, there is no reason not to join the alliance other than to cover up the fact that you're a moocher."

Maybe people don't want alliances to force their style of play on people? Think about that. And I think we both know that most alliances will do just that. This is just not cool with some folks out there who wanna do their thing. And there is no shame in that.

"You spelled GRAMMAR wrong."

Oh, come on! Gimme a break! I was at work and the boss was coming! Honest!

Report: 0.0 pretty much inaccessible to noobs. - by Dark Shikari

Fri, 24 Feb 2009 17:13:00 +0000

Originally by: Victor Valka

You are assuming that people that pop an unarmed hauler (okay, so it might be a hauling alt for a real bad pirate boy) by a gate are defending their space.

This isn't true. Firmus Ixion has Stain Alliance, Finite Horizon, TSBS, and countless other enemies to deal with. Keeping our space secure is a full-time job. If you want access to space, there is no reason not to join the alliance other than to cover up the fact that you're a moocher.

Originally by: Victor Valka

My two ISK, anyways. Oh, I hope you don't mind that I corrected your grammer when I quoted.

You spelled GRAMMAR wrong

[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior

What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.