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EVE-Search ForumWatch http://eve-search.com/ The alternative EVE-Online Forum browser. en-us Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:00:00 +0000 EVE-Search RSS Module v1.1 chribba@evemail <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Disco Flint]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=4#93

Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou

Originally by: Antares Andaris
Edited by: Antares Andaris on 15/05/2006 13:59:43
Edited by: Antares Andaris on 15/05/2006 13:57:38
My brother and me did a little test lately, him with a Raven and
me with an Apoc.
My fitting consisted of only T2 stuff including 8x heavy beam T2 for getting
a better tank. I am skilling Amarr stuff for half a year now.

My brother switched from Megathron to Raven about 3 weeks ago.
Granted he already got cap skills but everything else he had to
skill in those 3 weeks. He didnt need a single skill to 5 for
getting an all out T2 fitting for tanking and T1 heavy launcher
(which he used for fairness reasons, because i only used medium turrets)

Long story short:
Even though i have skilled half a year for my Apoc my brother
beat me at every range with ease with only 3 weeks of skilling.

What broke my neck:
1.He was able to detect my resistance hole and with the first slavo
of heavy missiles and then use only the best damage type.
2.At close range a had no chance breaking his tank and run out of
energy quickly due to his two heavy NOS.
3.He's was doing maximum damage through all ranges
4.Missiles require no cap and he could use all his cap for tanking

Small addition:
I had +3% all turret damage and +5% medium turret damage while my
brother had no damage mod iplant for missiles.

Now one could argue "******* use T2 mega pulse" but then he didnt get the point.
My argument is not ship performance in general, it's about the required skilling
time. It cannot be that you get an all out better performance in three weeks
than somebody with half a year of skilling time.

Seriously, beaten by 6 Hvy missile launchers? that must've been some resistance hole. Even better, the same resistance hole in both shields AND armor since he was able to spot it in his first salvo? Even with max skills, Thunderbolt Furies and no EM shield hardener the first volley of missiles wont penetrate the shield of an Apoc. Much less spot any resistance hole in the armor.
5k shields on the Apoc. Lets assume a ridiculous 500 dmg per Thunderbolt Fury for max skills and a rack of BCUs (base dmg is 180) x 6 launchers = 3000dmg per volley. So perhaps after 2-4 volleys he'd be able to spot any hole in your resistances. With max skills. Which he hadn't. Not even T2 Heavies.

Why did you even have a 'hole' in your resistances? It's not like you can predict the damage type a Raven can deal and specifically harden for it, go for all round resistances.... and then you say you sacrificed offensive power for a better tank? The apoc must be some really crappy tanker if it can't tank a whoopin' 50 dps when fitting smaller guns to improve tanking!

As for the NOS... that's really the only viable option for your run-off-the-mill Raven pilot unless he also skills towards large hybrids, so why bother flying into the 20km radius of doominess? Apoc and Raven have the same base speed and you can fit an AB without sacrificing tankability. T2 Heavy Beam Laser have a base optimal of 24km, so your reason can't have been range. Tackling? 1st, why, in a friendly PvP for testing, 2nd, if he warps out you win. Apoc beats Raven, albeit with weird fittings.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend the Raven, god no, I don't wanna get into the "nuuuurf the Raaaaven" line of fire. But what you 'tested' has no substance whatsoever.

]]> Wed, 17 May 2009 20:10:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5401099 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Othon Von'Salsa]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=4#92 Low skill in missile => damage = normal. I'm sure which I can can switch my 8m sp in hybrid or projectile, I can take 2x may be 3x damage.

If you try too shoot a npc with a ship amarr, you cry. The damage are very low, you canno't tank and make a very good turret (capacitor, cpu/pw, speed, ...). If you tank, you have all med slot occuped by capacitor recharger fot tank 10-20 minutes for shoot the bs npc ... After 10-20 minutes, you stop your gun for the capacitor. Amarr = this ... wait a lot of minutes for shoot and wait the capacitor for shoot/tank.
]]> Wed, 17 May 2009 19:17:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5401361 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kaylana Syi]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=4#91

Originally by: Aemilus Brutus

I don't want my Apoc to be the best at NPC killing, but I don't think it's too much to ask that gunboats get a little help in the NPC and close range combat department. You can improve the npc/small gang balance a little without making the Raven second rate.

I just don't see how it's fair that a low sp, low isk Raven setup should be massively better than my higher sp/ higher isk Apoc. Confused

I'd put my Tempest up against any of the ships you have mentioned and whip them without mercy. You want to complain about low SP investment ships... look at a NOSphoon or Vamp Domi.

Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 23:38:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5412652 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Aemilus Brutus]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#90 Edited by: Aemilus Brutus on 15/05/2006 18:17:53
I've used 2 missile launchers (cruise and torp) with the right missiles, I use the drones with the right damage type.

I don't want my Apoc to be the best at NPC killing, but I don't think it's too much to ask that gunboats get a little help in the NPC and close range combat department. You can improve the npc/small gang balance a little without making the Raven second rate.

I just don't see how it's fair that a low sp, low isk Raven setup should be massively better than my higher sp/ higher isk Apoc.

I just want the gap narrowed a little (the Apoc and other gunboats can and maybe should still be harder to NPC in, that would be fine, but I don't think it's fair for the gap in difficulty to be this great). Because of past mmo experiences I tend not to like recommending nerfing things (though maybe the Raven or missiles need a nerf), but rather giving others small improvements overtime to carefully improve balance gaps.

I don't want an I-win button, I just want my combat investment in skills and gear to be a little closer to a ship that can do much better at far lower levels of skill points and with lower quality gear. I KNOW there is a difference I fly an Apoc and a Raven, and it just doesn't seem fair.

People keep saying that if you have the right tech 2 setup (with the massive skill investment that requires, the skill difference for between tech 2 missiles and tech 2 large guns is sick) you might get a little closer to a much lower skilled Raven...

that just doesn't seem fair to me. Confused

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 18:14:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5414026 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Athanasios Anastasiou]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#89

Originally by: Antares Andaris

Edited by: Antares Andaris on 15/05/2006 13:59:43
Edited by: Antares Andaris on 15/05/2006 13:57:38
My brother and me did a little test lately, him with a Raven and
me with an Apoc.
My fitting consisted of only T2 stuff including 8x heavy beam T2 for getting
a better tank. I am skilling Amarr stuff for half a year now.

My brother switched from Megathron to Raven about 3 weeks ago.
Granted he already got cap skills but everything else he had to
skill in those 3 weeks. He didnt need a single skill to 5 for
getting an all out T2 fitting for tanking and T1 heavy launcher
(which he used for fairness reasons, because i only used medium turrets)

Long story short:
Even though i have skilled half a year for my Apoc my brother
beat me at every range with ease with only 3 weeks of skilling.

What broke my neck:
1.He was able to detect my resistance hole and with the first slavo
of heavy missiles and then use only the best damage type.
2.At close range a had no chance breaking his tank and run out of
energy quickly due to his two heavy NOS.
3.He's was doing maximum damage through all ranges
4.Missiles require no cap and he could use all his cap for tanking

Small addition:
I had +3% all turret damage and +5% medium turret damage while my
brother had no damage mod iplant for missiles.

Now one could argue "******* use T2 mega pulse" but then he didnt get the point.
My argument is not ship performance in general, it's about the required skilling
time. It cannot be that you get an all out better performance in three weeks
than somebody with half a year of skilling time.

Your apoc got beaten by heavy missiles from a raven?

Let's assume a 10 sec firing delay per launcher and you have at least 50% resistance of each type (basic for any pvp).

6*75/9=45 dps he was doing on your apoc.

My ferox has a /passive/ recharge rate higher then that with 70%+ resistance for every type. If my ferox easily tank this raven, your apoc should be able to also.

Your tank being bad is no justification for the raven being overpowered. Even a condor can defeat an apoc if the pilot is badly setup.
]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 16:52:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5414453 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Astrum Ludus]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#88 don't have too be in order to compete.

At all levels of skill points and I would say all roles bar long range highly skilled PvP Caldari boats are both easier to use and less skill intensive in order to be competitive. I've seen this first hand up to 5.5m sp (I know hardly the be all and end all, but all that matters to me) and read about it many times at far higher levels of skill points.

About a week after I started playing this game 3 of my friends also started. We picked our races based on the supporting fiction and what the ships looked like. We made an assumption of balance that was not to be.

Can anyone point me to the last thread where a 5m SP Raven pilot came on here and said wth is going on I just got beaten hands down by ANY gunnery boat with a fraction of the specilisation.

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 16:49:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5414469 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Jin Masaru]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#87

Originally by: cytomatrix

Have you ever tried using a raven in fleet battle? For pve missiles are great. But for pvp missiles suck. I am even thinking about training for turrents(lol).

So.. What's a "turrent"?
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"There comes a time when a man must spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H. L. Mencken]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 16:23:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5414574 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by kessah]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#86

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

Aemilus, first of all 1 vs 1 doesn't count much for balance. Second of all you have to realize that the apoc can actually work pretty well if you are smart.

8 Megapulse IIs or Dual heavy pulse IIs

28km scrambler, Heavy Electrochem Injector w. 800s, 2 ECM multis ( for general purpose config )

2 Large Armor Rep IIs, 2 explosive t2 hardner, 1 kinetic t2 hardner, 1 thermal t2 hardner, 1 energized t2 nano.

choice of energy neut drones, ecm drones, web drones, or explosive damage drones.

Viola... a ship that can tank a raven, survive NOS, and run the ravens cap injectors out.

i think your guna need to fit dual heavy pusle t2 and a triple t2 armour tank to out tank a raven with fury torps. It does do crazy damage.
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http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 15:28:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5414839 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kaylana Syi]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#85
8 Megapulse IIs or Dual heavy pulse IIs

28km scrambler, Heavy Electrochem Injector w. 800s, 2 ECM multis ( for general purpose config )

2 Large Armor Rep IIs, 2 explosive t2 hardner, 1 kinetic t2 hardner, 1 thermal t2 hardner, 1 energized t2 nano.

choice of energy neut drones, ecm drones, web drones, or explosive damage drones.

Viola... a ship that can tank a raven, survive NOS, and run the ravens cap injectors out.

Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 14:35:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5415107 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Antares Andaris]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#84 me with an Apoc.
My fitting consisted of only T2 stuff including 8x heavy beam T2 for getting
a better tank. I am skilling Amarr stuff for half a year now.

My brother switched from Megathron to Raven about 3 weeks ago.
Granted he already got cap skills but everything else he had to
skill in those 3 weeks. He didnt need a single skill to 5 for
getting an all out T2 fitting for tanking and siege launcher.

Long story short:
Even though i have skilled half a year for my Apoc my brother
beat me at every range with ease with only 3 weeks of skilling.

What broke my neck:
1.He was able to detect my resistance hole and with the first slavo
of torps and then use only the best damage type.
2.At close range a had no chance breaking his tank and run out of
energy quickly due to his two heavy NOS.
3.He's was doing maximum damage through all ranges
4.Missiles require no cap and he could use all his cap for tanking

Small addition:
I had +3% all turret damage and +5% medium turret damage while my
brother had no damage mod iplant for missiles.

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 13:53:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5415366 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kaylana Syi]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#83

Originally by: Benefactor

-There is something that is not cool, which takes over and makes my "cool" ship/class/character concept "not uber" in PVP. In this case, the asymmetrical, blocky nightmares called Caldari ships.

Caldari ships are far from superior in PvP. I will take a Amarr ship over a Caldari one any day unless its the day I run missions.

Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 10:24:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5416405 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by kessah]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#82

Originally by: Bellac

I try to sell tech 2 mega beam lasers. If everyone thinks they are so good, and so overpowered, why the hell can i not sell more than a couple a week. My guess is because they are not very good, and there are better alternatives. Prices continue to fall to the point now that i am only making a couple of hundred thou isk on each turret. Its just not worth me renting the factory space.

Its not just tech 2 either. I know theres a huge skill tree to get to use them, but even tech 1 large laser turrets are being sold in many cases for less than the mineral cost. I can buy modulated beams and recycle them and make more money than I can make from trying to sell tech 2.

I think this speaks for itself

Megabeams rawk man, generally tho its the price of the t2 ammo with the large t2 beams, there so expensive and conflag is so cheap so the majority seem to fog off the long range thoughts in favour for a super cheap Dual heavy pulse w\conflag or MegaP and go short range.

I love the Apoc with Megabeams and gleam tbh anything within 10km50km generally gets hit hard, but its the pricing of Gleam and Aurora i believe that affects your megabeam selling the rest of the setup is v expensive.

Raven doesnt need nerfing CCP just need to fix defenders or some sort of Tracking disruption equivilent is released.

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http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 07:35:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5416965 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Hugh Ruka]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#81

Originally by: Benefactor

To answer the question whether the Raven needs a nerf, the proof is in the pudding.

Notice what the last three gank squads waiting by your nearest convenient stargate consisted of?

Yep, Ravens.

I'm sure they're soooooooo balanced with the other craft, that pirates use Ravens because they love the lopsided-looking Lego nightmare.

Ravens: The "Jedi" of EVE.

the last 3 I encountered were mega, tempest, tempest.
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if you want peace, prepare for war ...
------------------------------
Removed due to offensive content - Laqum

I realy liked my signature. Oh well]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 06:26:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5417123 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Benefactor]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#80
Notice what the last three gank squads waiting by your nearest convenient stargate consisted of?

Yep, Ravens.

I'm sure they're soooooooo balanced with the other craft, that pirates use Ravens because they love the lopsided-looking Lego nightmare.

Ravens: The "Jedi" of EVE.

A wise man knows everything. A cunning man knows everybody.]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 05:55:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5417220 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Hugh Ruka]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#79
now to the OP: well I don't know much about amarr ships, but try your raven in the concord complex in hjoramold ... a meager 190k bs will shoot down 3/4 of your missiles IF you are not in less than 15km range ... that's for one

in your place, I would use the 2 launcher slots you have on apoc to fit cruise/torps. also proper damage drons help ... the suggestion about rails was also good.
------------------------------
if you want peace, prepare for war ...
------------------------------
Removed due to offensive content - Laqum

I realy liked my signature. Oh well]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 05:51:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5417241 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by turnschuh]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#78

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 05:40:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5417267 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Serj Darek]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#77

Originally by: Bellac

So basically what your'e saying is that your shiny T2 bpo wasn't an I WIN button for ISK?

Sell the BPO? Try selling in another region? Try getting bulk orders instead of market sales?

Player driven economy 4tW! YARRRR!!

Fix the Typhoon description! 3 years in the making!

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 05:18:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5417315 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Foulis]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#76

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

Originally by: Eximius Josari
My ships require heavy investments in Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Shields, and Armor.

Pfffttt... OK I use BlasterScorp so my skills require heavy investments in Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering and Mechanic. Razz

I see your Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering, Mechanic. And raise you navigation.

All at the same time. Rolling Eyes

----

Cake > Pie - Imaran

Originally by: CCP Hammer
Boobies

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 04:46:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5417370 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Benefactor]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#75
-I usually pick something out because it "looks cool." I build a character concept around it. In this case, Amarr ships. I do what I can to make them work, in this case, by loading the ships out in a way that takes full advantage of all skill bonuses.
-There is something that is not cool, which takes over and makes my "cool" ship/class/character concept "not uber" in PVP. In this case, the asymmetrical, blocky nightmares called Caldari ships. In other games, they are known as Paladins, Monks, Defenders, or some other variety of "not as cool" that I'm supposed to be pressured to use, because of its pwnage factor.

Hey, anyone notice that in most games, the "healz0r" is the most uber thing that everyone demands? I'm kind of glad Logistics ships are broken. Keep em broken! YARRRR!!

A wise man knows everything. A cunning man knows everybody.]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 04:35:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5417384 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Epsilon 1]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#74

Originally by: Bellac

Originally by: Steven Gerrard
Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?

]]> Mon, 15 May 2009 04:07:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5417429 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Eximius Josari]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#73

Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 23:18:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5418201 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Bellac]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#72
Its not just tech 2 either. I know theres a huge skill tree to get to use them, but even tech 1 large laser turrets are being sold in many cases for less than the mineral cost. I can buy modulated beams and recycle them and make more money than I can make from trying to sell tech 2.

I think this speaks for itself
]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 22:59:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5418253 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by CptEagle]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#71

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 20:40:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5418729 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by smallgreenblur]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#70

Originally by: Angelic Resolution

Aemilus, I've gotta agree. I've found my Apoc to do less dmg then a raven easily. Apoc's are only good for sniping and even then you've gotta train up large lasers spec to 3. Sb's take care of inties sure. But the raven doesn't need to sacrifice 2 high slots, it just fires t2 cruise missiles and bye bye inty. If anything to balance it all out, give large lasers 10% extra dmg and ship bonus of 10% to Large laser dmg/drone dmg per level. Deffinately make this even IMO.

arrrggghhh. Have you even looked at the geddon's dps? People like you need shooting for the sanity of rhe rest of us. The Raven needs a nerf, no other bs need a boost, apart from what's already coming.

sgb

C6 is recruiting ... visit www.c6-eve.com or join channel c-6 for details.]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 20:36:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5418746 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Epsilon 1]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#69

Originally by: Angelic Resolution

1. t2 turrets, t2 ammo
2. drones t2 small + medium
3. get yer skills up and the apoc will be uber YARRRR!!

Originally by: Steven Gerrard
Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 19:22:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5419066 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Angelic Resolution]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#68 ]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 16:23:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5419718 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Agent2 Holtze]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#67 Edited by: Agent2 Holtze on 14/05/2006 14:26:45
wow, this have turned in to a general let's nerf it all thread!

Woohoo Rolling Eyes

anybody wanna say something about WCS ?

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 14:26:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420166 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Serj Darek]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#66

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 13/05/2006 21:25:39

Originally by: Gronsak
your apoc is fine, its the raven thats overpwoered!

try agent running in a mega or tempest, even harder

hopefully devs will wake up and nerf torps to max 20km with perfect skills, that would balance things greatly!!!!!!!!!

Funny that Minmatar allways seems to be overlooked when Caldari's go on their "heavy investment in skills" rants, don't you think?

Fix the Typhoon description! 3 years in the making!

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 14:25:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420167 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by kessah]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#65

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 13/05/2006 21:25:39

Originally by: Gronsak
your apoc is fine, its the raven thats overpwoered!

try agent running in a mega or tempest, even harder

hopefully devs will wake up and nerf torps to max 20km with perfect skills, that would balance things greatly!!!!!!!!!

Electronics is universal across all races jenny, It takes more skills to fly a Turret ship than a missle ship, with the turrets all previous sized need 5 and then spec to 4.

Caldari have always been an easy race, i still think of them as the newbie race to be.

Sorta goes from easiest to hardest, Caldari, Gallente, Amarr then Matari.

But tbh Amarr are fine, then again its only becus of the T2 Ammo Gleam, Conflag that im doing nice damage and ive pretty credible skills in Lasers and turrets. Im always up for an amarr boost.
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http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 14:16:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420191 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kunming]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#64

Originally by: Mizura

Originally by: Kunming

but I can take down a domi in an arbitrator (its a frikkin cruiser), hardly the case against a raven.

I would absolutely love to see you take on a well-fitted Dominix in an Arbitrator. I can claim that I can kill a Raven with a Kestrel, doesn't make it true.

Sure, tracking disrupt his drones, and kill them with your meds, stay out of nos range and use cap booster 800s to run ur dual reps until the drones are killed, then switch to cap booster 200s against his nos and go in for the kill... and dont run ur injector on auto, timing is important.

I assume ur a raven pilot who doesnt know there is more to combat than just F1, F2, F3...

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 14:01:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420241 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Naughty Boy]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#63 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 14/05/2006 13:50:51

Originally by: MELEK ICO
The tempest can take my raven out very fast the only thing i can do to help my self is warp at 150km and use the range to do some damage to him before he gets too close.

That's an "interesting" scenario, whether that tempest of yours is fitted for close range or long range... Confused

All i can say is that a cruise raven can already give an AC tempest a hard time at close range, let alone a torp raven. T2 ammo for the tempest is limited to damage types a raven tanked with invulnerability fields can tank very well... in the meanwhile, the versatility of the cruise raven is "slightly" higher. Don't get me started how on SISI, with the last changes a friend popped my tanked vagabond with 4 volleys of t2 torps.

Bah, nevermind.

NB.

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 13:48:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420296 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Mizura]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#62

Originally by: Kunming

but I can take down a domi in an arbitrator (its a frikkin cruiser), hardly the case against a raven.

I would absolutely love to see you take on a well-fitted Dominix in an Arbitrator. I can claim that I can kill a Raven with a Kestrel, doesn't make it true.
]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 13:12:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420397 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kaylana Syi]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=3#61
That is where the Raven shines. The risk vs reward for mission running is out of whack and in favor of a Raven because Corp A in Ravens running missions to PvP the Market will always be at a competetive edge over Corp B not in Ravens. The Raven definately needs a balance somewhere on the mission front and probably will happen with some sort of t2 missile and t1 torpedo balance.

For 0.0 NPCing the Raven has ba77z, that is not in question, but it has horrible cost benefit over amarr. You can make more isk with an armageddon and have room for the loot in your cargo hold on Less SP than a Raven. Not to mention access to 5 heavy drones.

Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 13:03:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420427 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kunming]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#60

Originally by: Mizura

Originally by: Kunming
Nerf the raven already,

Raven can choose dmg type
Raven can tank, gank, jam at the same time
Raven will always hit you
Raven will always NOS the juice out of you at close range with its standart 2 Heavy NOS - 6 launcher setup

Yeah maybe domi needs a nerf too but THIS THREAD is more about raven vs other BS not missiles vs drones or drones vs turrets.. but I can take down a domi in an arbitrator (its a frikkin cruiser), hardly the case against a raven.

- Drones can be killed, jammed, tracking disrupted etc.
Missiles cant be killed, jammed (FoF), tracking disrupted etc.
- Drones move much slower than missiles (my missiles cant insta hit whAAAAA.. remember these threads?)
- Drones have a rather limited max range compared to missiles.
- Drones are not fire and forget like missiles, if u leave the battlefield without scooping them back you will lose all your offensive power.

About jamming, its gonna get nerfed anyway, BUT do I need to remind you that ECM is actually the CALDARI EW?.. sensor damp gall, tracking disr. amarr etc.

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 12:10:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420600 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Brother Tycho]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#59
7 megapulse II, 1 hvy nos

AB II, 2 Cap charger II

1 LAR II, 3 Active Hardners,1 HS II,2 Cap Relays,1 Diagnostic II

requires advanced wep upgrades 4 to fit last hvy nos.

i just AB into Multi Opt and f1-f8 they die just as fast as they would to a raven its just the getting to range part thats a pain.

i do understand why people complain about the raven all the time it can NPC any place in 0.0 with a t1 setup with no problems and not require tons of sp, ravens are about as near to the I win button for pve as we can get ingame,
dont give up on Amarr getting a zelot will change your who outlook.

-------------[B+tHd TH+]-------------

Spreading the good word since beta ]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 11:54:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420653 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by MELEK ICO]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#58 ]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 11:44:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420698 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Vishnej]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#57 Edited by: Vishnej on 14/05/2006 11:42:09
What I don't get is why the Guristas rats have awesome EM shield resists - usually better than the other resists. It's never made since to me, since shields are the weakest EM on player ships, and we have Minmatar rats to hate on Amarr. Take a look:
http://tinyurl.com/othvl

------
]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 11:36:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420736 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Mizura]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#56

Originally by: Kunming

Dominix can choose damage type (Drones)
Dominix can tank, gank, jam at the same time.
Dominix can arguably always hit you (Drones)
Dominix will NOS the juice out of you at close range.

Clearly the Dominix should also be nerfed, or maybe you guys should adapt
]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 11:33:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420755 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kye Kenshin]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#55

Originally by: Kunming

Nerf the raven already,

Raven can choose dmg type
Raven can tank, gank, jam at the same time
Raven will always hit you
Raven will always NOS the juice out of you at close range with its standart 2 Heavy NOS - 6 launcher setup

To beat a raven u need at least 4 heavy nos (to break its tank) and drones (incase he jams you) and a godly tank of your own...

Every raven pilot knows its overpowered, none of them will admit it as its the I-WIN button for most stuff except fleet battles @ 150+ km.

Now that caldari are even getting a rail boat for fleet battles (oh the whinage we had to hear from caldari pilots to make this finally happen) whats really the point for training up another race? And why is CCP constantly catering for caldari, is it cause majority of the ppl are caldari maybe, or is it cause that majority can cause the loudest whinage??

Aye, completely agree.

Nothing wrong with amarr BS or any other BS for that matter (apart from domi but thats due to overpowered ECM) the raven just makes the other BS look inferior.

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 11:29:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420775 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kunming]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#54
Raven can choose dmg type
Raven can tank, gank, jam at the same time
Raven will always hit you
Raven will always NOS the juice out of you at close range with its standart 2 Heavy NOS - 6 launcher setup

To beat a raven u need at least 4 heavy nos (to break its tank) and drones (incase he jams you) and a godly tank of your own...

Every raven pilot knows its overpowered, none of them will admit it as its the I-WIN button for most stuff except fleet battles @ 150+ km.

Now that caldari are even getting a rail boat for fleet battles (oh the whinage we had to hear from caldari pilots to make this finally happen) whats really the point for training up another race? And why is CCP constantly catering for caldari, is it cause majority of the ppl are caldari maybe, or is it cause that majority can cause the loudest whinage??

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 11:23:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420803 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kaylana Syi]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#53

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

Originally by: smallgreenblur
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.

Surely A/Cs with their less CPU and better falloff would be a better choice? with barrage L they are perfectly capable of killing frigs in a sphere 50ks or so in diameter :) might have to try that on my next scorp...

sgb

I only use/fly Made in Caldari. Cant fly Gallentean, Amarrian or Minnie-trash. Embarassed

Why Jenny... oh why say such hurtful things?! Crying or Very sad

Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 11:22:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420810 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Da Death]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#52

Originally by: Aemilus Brutus

First point, I am going to write about the Raven some, I DO NOT want the Raven nerfed, that is not what is post is about. This post is about my slight disappointment in the current state of Amarr ships,lasers and guns in general...

/.signed

Absolution - Curse - T2 Laser Crystals - T2 Drones and more -> check Bio

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 11:21:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420817 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Deathbarrage]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#51
8x megapulse II (some switch the last for a cruiser launcher due to pg problems)

AB, 3x cap recharger
2x LAR II, 3x racial hardeners (2x thermal 1x em for sansha's) 2x cap relay

with good skills everything runs forever (get decent cap rechargers man)

wtf pwns just about anything
]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 11:11:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420861 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kilo Paskaa]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#50

Quote:

Moral of story, missiles are different than turrets. Doesn't change the fact that by only looking at this graph then I'd put my money on the Raven but that doesn't have so much to do ...

Tux said.
--------

As you can see, i pwned Kieron for iskies.]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 10:48:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420942 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by twit brent]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#49 ]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 10:35:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5420987 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Maya Rkell]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#48
Try carrying a Nos and draining the BS you're fighting. Does wonders for killing its tank. And maybe carry missile launchers loaded with kinetic missiles.

"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 01:39:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422105 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Kolhell]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#47
you might also want to consider the types of rats you were facing - i fly minmatar and reside in impass (angel rats) and my phoon shield tanks with 4 mid slots better than it armor tanks with 7 lows solely because angels do a high amount of explosive damage. go fight some sanshas with your raven and your apoc and then see which tanks better.

-------------------------
bury the hatchet]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 01:26:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422160 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by d'hofren]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#46 Edited by: d''hofren on 14/05/2006 01:21:28

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Agent2 Holtze
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Eximius Josari
My ships require heavy investments in Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Shields, and Armor.

Pfffttt... OK I use BlasterScorp so my skills require heavy investments in Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering and Mechanic.

lol.

Why LOL?

I think the point is:

Your one specialised / niche blaster scorp setup require these skills.

Any minmatar pilot requires all of these plus the shield tanking stuff as well.

welcome to the world of the minmatar.

(i am grumpy today sorry) Sad

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Galactic Exploration and Mining - Web and T II Shop
(Including Cerbs)
]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 01:20:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422182 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Aemilus Brutus]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#45 which is why I'm a little annoyed with the balance in the game... but that tier 3 amarr battleship looks great and I still have a Nightmare to aim for so I won't stay annoyed with the game for too long Wink

]]> Sun, 14 May 2009 00:23:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422363 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Commander Thrawn]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#44
high:
6 Tachyon
2 siege launcher

med: AB II, 3 cap rechargers
low: 1 LAR2, 1 MAR2, 1600 tungston, 2 energize nano2, 2 cap relay or in your case two heatsinks if your cap if fine, and a RC tech 2

reactor tech 2 required or that second seige isn't gonna fit. maybe if you took the AB out you could fit a tech 1 RC. Same thing with a second large armor rep, i could only get one in and this wont change if you take the AB out. i added a med rep to help. I personally perfer passive tank with tach since they eat cap like mad. but if you find it work will fell free to fit dmg mods as the dmg is the issue here
]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 23:49:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422456 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Seleene Ni'Traho]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#43 Edited by: Seleene Ni''Traho on 13/05/2006 23:44:52
I found with my apoc, it's all about closing range with megapulses and rip loose with MF crystals.

My setup for NPC'ing:

6* Modulated Megapulses, 2* Medium Pulse II
1 Gisty X AB, 3* Cap Recharger II
1 LAR II, 3 Hardeners (sometimes 4, eg. vs angels and mercs), HS II, 2* Cap Relays

Vs Blood raiders gives me enough res to tank allmost forever. Use drones + small guns to kill inty's etc.

Vs Minmater it's sower, as the Stabbers stay at range. UV takes them out nicely, though. Only foes I don't close but snipe against are rogue drones. They die nicely at range though.
EG the Vengeance Boss (Guerista or Blood Raider) very fast once you're at 6000 m and rip loose with all guns and 5* medium drones.

Use all your capabilities, use right drones for NPC's type, and you're able to break any tank out there.

(edit: in case you wonder about my skills, forum insists on posting with this char instead of my main :( )
]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 23:39:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422496 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Commander Thrawn]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#42

Originally by: Aemilus Brutus

I have the misfortune of residing in Lonetrek and running RSS agents, so I get Guristas, Angels, Mercs, and some Sansha as far as npcs. If I'm feeling stupid I'll venture out into low sec, usually in a Maller or Prophecy. Now with lvl3 agents, my geddon, apoc, and prophecy have no problem against anything, even though Angel Ext. is annoying, so I usually turn it down. If I had known how much trouble I would have with lvl 4 versions of these NPCs I may have focused my limited playing time on different agents and in a different region, as it stands now with my limited playtime and somewhat low amarr standing I'm pretty much stuck, unless I spend months slowly working toward good amarr agents far away from my corp, or I head to Gallente space where I can fly decent Federal Int missions.

Setups -
High Slots - 7 or 8 named mega beams, or 6,7, or 8 named Pulse (just bought the best named , pretty much bankrupting me) sometimes I have a cruise missile launcher or 2, sometimes I've used NOS.

Meds - 3 best named cap chargers, either an Afterburner when I have the pulse setup, or a good named target painter, or a fleeting webber, otherwise cruisers are just too hard to hit (even with a tracking implant and motion prediction 5)

Lows - 2 T2 Large reps, 3 N-type hardeners (which ones depends on the NPC), 1 cap relay, one t2 heatsink or another cap relay

Now some Guristas kill missions I've had no problem with, but if I get a decent NPC battleship I have almost no chance of killing it, I just can't ***** their tank, even with multi-frequency.

I can forget running an Angel mission, lasers just don't cut it

That's largely why I'm so annoyed, a mega or a tempest probably would work better in my situation (kinetic damage works great), I know my raven has no real trouble... but my favorite ship, the Apoc, is next to useless.

im quite suprised you have this much trouble with mega pulse
but then again im used to killing 0 BS spawns in a apoc. I found 6 tachyon was more then enough to kill most 0 BS spawns, but i was fighting sansha.

maybe try 6 mega pulse and 2 siege launcher(kin dmg)
or try 6 tachyon with the 2 launcher. might be hard to fit, i'll see if i can play around with quickfit for this

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 23:36:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422506 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Commander Thrawn]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#41

Originally by: Mazar Byrd

Put 425mm railguns on your apoc and it will chew up what lasers wont. Fit antimatter for kinetic/thermal. 425s are easier to fit then mega beams/pulses. It only takes a day to train for large hybrid turrets.

a good point

Also if you say you have no problems with cap and you equally have no problems tanking, try a geddon, you'll get a hell of better dmg output with this ship.

apoc really isn't a very good dmg dealer, but i can't say all lasers are gimped therefore causing amarr ships to be doomed. To be honest i don't yet have the skills required to realy fly a amarr Bs well(large energy to 4) but my zealot is one hell of a beast in the dmg departement. 9.16 dmg mod. i don't really care what the resist of npc's are, most die really fast.

try the geddon, see how the goes. And if you can't tank the missions in it and the NPC have high em and thermal resistance, fit hybrids.
]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 23:24:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422551 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Aemilus Brutus]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#40 ]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 23:22:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422559 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Aemilus Brutus]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#39
Setups -
High Slots - 7 or 8 named mega beams, or 6,7, or 8 named Pulse (just bought the best named , pretty much bankrupting me) sometimes I have a cruise missile launcher or 2, sometimes I've used NOS.

Meds - 3 best named cap chargers, either an Afterburner when I have the pulse setup, or a good named target painter, or a fleeting webber, otherwise cruisers are just too hard to hit (even with a tracking implant and motion prediction 5)

Lows - 2 T2 Large reps, 3 N-type hardeners (which ones depends on the NPC), 1 cap relay, one t2 heatsink or another cap relay

Now some Guristas kill missions I've had no problem with, but if I get a decent NPC battleship I have almost no chance of killing it, I just can't ***** their tank, even with multi-frequency.

I can forget running an Angel mission, lasers just don't cut it

That's largely why I'm so annoyed, a mega or a tempest probably would work better in my situation (kinetic damage works great), I know my raven has no real trouble... but my favorite ship, the Apoc, is next to useless.
]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 23:20:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422564 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Mazar Byrd]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#38 ]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 23:06:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422610 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Agent2 Holtze]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#37

Originally by: Aemilus Brutus

I have used nos, but my cap isn't really the issue, it's my damage output. Also about the Tempest and the Mega, both are getting some help in the next patch with the blaster and artilery improvements. And the Gallente have the a Tier 1 battleship that seems good at mission running. Perhaps I'm not fighting the right NPCs, but do the other factions have NPCs that they have to avoid like I have to avoid, if so then I probably should drop the subject... Yes, everyone keeps bringing up fleet combat and the Raven's possible problems there.... but be honest how much of your game time is spent in a fleet battle? For some of you it's probably a lot, but I bet you're in the minority as far as most players are concerned. I could fly down to amarr space, leave all my corp mates behind... well, no that's not really a good option.

Also read what I said carefully, my Raven with crap sp in shields and missiles is far, far better for NPC killing. Most Amarr pilots have electronics 5 for fitting turrets too, so it isn't like that's a Raven pilot only skill...

I'm not asking for the Apoc to be an I-Win button (which after flying my Apoc so much, the Raven seems really close too), I just think that gun users, and lasers (what I have the most experience with, which may color my viewpoint) may need a little help for us poor casual playing, mission runners, that may see small gang PVP and PVE, but never a fleet battle.

Tell us alittle about your setup and which rats you hunt instead. maybe that is the problem.

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 22:33:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422752 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Maya Rkell]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#36
Because some NPC types resist EM and thermal well. Simple as that. That's NOT "broken", that's those NPC types. Others sre far more vulnrable.

"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 22:26:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422772 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Aemilus Brutus]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#35
Also read what I said carefully, my Raven with crap sp in shields and missiles is far, far better for NPC killing. Most Amarr pilots have electronics 5 for fitting turrets too, so it isn't like that's a Raven pilot only skill...

I'm not asking for the Apoc to be an I-Win button (which after flying my Apoc so much, the Raven seems really close too), I just think that gun users, and lasers (what I have the most experience with, which may color my viewpoint) may need a little help for us poor casual playing, mission runners, that may see small gang PVP and PVE, but never a fleet battle.

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 22:23:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422789 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Jenny Spitfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#34

Originally by: Commander Thrawn

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.

Surely A/Cs with their less CPU and better falloff would be a better choice? with barrage L they are perfectly capable of killing frigs in a sphere 50ks or so in diameter :) might have to try that on my next scorp...

sgb

I only use/fly Made in Caldari. Cant fly Gallentean, Amarrian or Minnie-trash.

lol dont you have 2 or 3 vag BPO's train those minnie skills, your sitting on a gold mine

CBA to waste time on cross training. Already heavily specialised in Caldari. Might as well get a professorship in Caldari warfare. Might trade Vagabond for Cerberus. Wink

----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT!
Corporate Consultation Services ]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 22:08:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422838 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Agent2 Holtze]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#33

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

Originally by: Agent2 Holtze
I thoughed you where joking jenny, that's all ;)

Allthough wouldn't you be better of with missils light, heavies with Precious (or how they are spelled) for killing off frigs and tacklers while jamming and flying aound ?

Missiles? Too slow. After using turrets, my name on killmails has increased by 100%.

okay, i don't got a single SP in missils, so i wouldn' know =)

Amarr 4tw =)

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 22:08:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422839 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Commander Thrawn]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#32

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

Originally by: smallgreenblur
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.

Surely A/Cs with their less CPU and better falloff would be a better choice? with barrage L they are perfectly capable of killing frigs in a sphere 50ks or so in diameter :) might have to try that on my next scorp...

sgb

I only use/fly Made in Caldari. Cant fly Gallentean, Amarrian or Minnie-trash. Embarassed

lol dont you have 2 or 3 vag BPO's train those minnie skills, your sitting on a gold mine
]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 22:05:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422850 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Jenny Spitfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=2#31

Originally by: Agent2 Holtze

I thoughed you where joking jenny, that's all ;)

Allthough wouldn't you be better of with missils light, heavies with Precious (or how they are spelled) for killing off frigs and tacklers while jamming and flying aound ? Very Happy

Missiles? Too slow. After using turrets, my name on killmails has increased by 100%.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
Corporate Consultation Services ]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 22:05:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422851 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Agent2 Holtze]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#30
Allthough wouldn't you be better of with missils light, heavies with Precious (or how they are spelled) for killing off frigs and tacklers while jamming and flying aound ? Very Happy

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 22:03:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422864 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Jenny Spitfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#29

Originally by: smallgreenblur

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.

Surely A/Cs with their less CPU and better falloff would be a better choice? with barrage L they are perfectly capable of killing frigs in a sphere 50ks or so in diameter :) might have to try that on my next scorp...

sgb

I only use/fly Made in Caldari. Cant fly Gallentean, Amarrian or Minnie-trash. Embarassed

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.

Works remarkably well. At least from the perspective of the guy who's been shot at by the blasted things, anyway :)

"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:56:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422896 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by JoeT]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#27 ---
Murder Murder, yes indeed, K-I-L-L-I-N-G

---]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:55:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422906 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by smallgreenblur]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#26

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.

C6 is recruiting ... visit www.c6-eve.com or join channel c-6 for details.]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:54:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422908 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Jenny Spitfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#25

Originally by: Sarmaul

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Agent2 Holtze
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Eximius Josari
My ships require heavy investments in Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Shields, and Armor.

Pfffttt... OK I use BlasterScorp so my skills require heavy investments in Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering and Mechanic.

lol.

Why LOL?

I think he thought you were joking about the blasterscorp... I thought you were anyway...

But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.
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Corporate Consultation Services ]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:44:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422957 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Sarmaul]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#24

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

Originally by: Agent2 Holtze
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Eximius Josari
My ships require heavy investments in Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Shields, and Armor.

Pfffttt... OK I use BlasterScorp so my skills require heavy investments in Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering and Mechanic.

lol.

Why LOL?

I think he thought you were joking about the blasterscorp... I thought you were anyway...

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:40:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422978 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Jenny Spitfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#23

Originally by: Agent2 Holtze

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Eximius Josari
My ships require heavy investments in Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Shields, and Armor.

Pfffttt... OK I use BlasterScorp so my skills require heavy investments in Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering and Mechanic.

lol.

Why LOL?

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Corporate Consultation Services ]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:37:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5422996 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Commander Thrawn]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#22
another option for the explosive dmg crystal is to lower based DPS on the crystal, not the gun.
no one would complain about this as you would only use these crystal on ship with high EM and thermal resistance.
IE minnie hacs.

medium multi = 14 em, 10 therm
tech 2 explosive for sam range, lest say = 8 explosive

not overpowered
]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:34:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423009 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Agent2 Holtze]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#21

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

Originally by: Eximius Josari
My ships require heavy investments in Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Shields, and Armor.

Pfffttt... OK I use BlasterScorp so my skills require heavy investments in Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering and Mechanic. Razz

lol.

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:33:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423014 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Eximius Josari]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#20

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

Originally by: Eximius Josari
My ships require heavy investments in Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Shields, and Armor.

Pfffttt... OK I use BlasterScorp so my skills require heavy investments in Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering and Mechanic. Razz

I need Electronics too, cause...its cool.

Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:32:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423023 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Jenny Spitfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#19

Originally by: Eximius Josari

My ships require heavy investments in Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Shields, and Armor. Laughing

Pfffttt... OK I use BlasterScorp so my skills require heavy investments in Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering and Mechanic. Razz

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Corporate Consultation Services ]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:29:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423031 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Eximius Josari]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#18

Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:26:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423044 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by smallgreenblur]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#17

Originally by: Agent2 Holtze

Play your role. Wink

qft

Originally by: cytomatrix
Have you ever tried using a raven in fleet battle? For pve missiles are great. But for pvp missiles suck. I am even thinking about training for turrents(lol).

yeah, raven sucks at killing bs at 150ks. On the other hand, the ability to one-volley any tacklers that come to scramble your mates is occasionally useful...

sgb

C6 is recruiting ... visit www.c6-eve.com or join channel c-6 for details.]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:26:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423046 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Jenny Spitfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#16 Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 13/05/2006 21:25:39

Originally by: Gronsak
your apoc is fine, its the raven thats overpwoered!

try agent running in a mega or tempest, even harder

hopefully devs will wake up and nerf torps to max 20km with perfect skills, that would balance things greatly!!!!!!!!!

How can Ravens be overpowered? I fly mainly Caldari and specialise in them. What I know about Caldari are their ships require heavy investments in 3 sets of skills, Electronics, Engineering and Missiles. Other races only concentrate a Mechanic and Gunnery.

TBH, I think they are pretty balanced unless you are looking at a tiny part here, a tiny part there then they look as if Caldari is a noob race.
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]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:22:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423074 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Epsilon 1]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#14

Originally by: Steven Gerrard
Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:19:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423078 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Agent2 Holtze]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#13

Originally by: smallgreenblur

Originally by: Agent2 Holtze
Originally by: Commander Thrawn
i think everything is fine, but ya maybe a slight raven nerf. Explosive tech 2 crystals would be great

explosive crystals would make the zealot and geddon overpowered 0.o

CCP didn't introduce explosive crystals because they would indeed overpower ammar ships by one helluva lot. You'd need to take a severe dps hit, and I doubt people want that.

sgb

I wouldn't, because amarr is fine.

But i'm tired of people that wanna spec and then cry when there is another race ship that does something else better =(

Player your role. Wink

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:17:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423085 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by smallgreenblur]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#12

Originally by: Agent2 Holtze

Originally by: Commander Thrawn
i think everything is fine, but ya maybe a slight raven nerf. Explosive tech 2 crystals would be great

explosive crystals would make the zealot and geddon overpowered 0.o

CCP didn't introduce explosive crystals because they would indeed overpower ammar ships by one helluva lot. You'd need to take a severe dps hit, and I doubt people want that.

sgb

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Originally by: Commander Thrawn

i think everything is fine, but ya maybe a slight raven nerf. Explosive tech 2 crystals would be great

explosive crystals would make the zealot and geddon overpowered 0.o

]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:06:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423123 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by smallgreenblur]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#10
sgb

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Originally by: Aemilus Brutus

I read up on the forums, experimented with suggested setups and ran a few Level 4s in my Apoc, it was though. I can not yet use Tech 2 large lasers and I kept running into ships that I had trouble breaking their tanks and had to call in corp help. My tank would hold up just fine, but I could not deal enough damage with my pulse lasers to down the battleships that I ran into.

Which NPC's were you fighting? Were you using Nos?

"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:05:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423130 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Commander Thrawn]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#8 ]]> Sat, 13 May 2009 21:04:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/5423134 <![CDATA[A little annoyed - Let's talk about Amarr, lasers, and guns - by Jim Raynor]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=337375&page=1#7