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CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Lord WarATron

Fri, 18 Aug 2009 08:17:00 +0000

The reality is put up or buy a new char with the stats you desire.

But that brings in a new issue - Since you can basically buy a new char anyway, why dont you have a pay for stat reset on the website limited to 1 reset per month to prevent abuse?

Anyhow in my case I had high charisma during my trial, and after my trial - I just created a new character.
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Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour
FREE

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Atha'an

Fri, 18 Aug 2009 07:40:00 +0000

Originally by: Laramon Questor
Look at me. I'm Seb. My int is out of this world. Why, do you ask?

I USED COMMON SENSE.

I started back in December '04. I had no idea what the game was like, I just rolled the dice and bought an account. I also didn't know about the custom option, so ended up with the stats that were given to me. Am I complaining? No.

I thought I wanted to be a scientist type character, and so I would need int. I found out that wasn't for me, but I haven't regretted it.

I thought that I didn't want to interact much with people, so I wouldn't need charisma. I ended up with 3 or 4. I still have a few charisma skills, which are useful.

I wasn't sure what memory would be used for, but I figured it had something to do with int, so I picked a bloodline that was closely balanced with int.

Perception/willpower are my weak points bar charisma. But I am one HELL of a pilot. Why? Because my support skills are good, so I can cram a load of crap on the ships I train for. Yeah, it takes a long time to train for new ships, but it's worth it when I can fly them because they're immediately deadly.

Now on the topic of rerolls... NOOOOOOO!

What's to stop someone from training charisma skills up, and them switching to another line? Nothing. You could max out charisma when you start, train a good way into the charisma tree, then switch to another tree for the rest of your life. Completely takes out the point of specializing.

Also you have to consider: If perception is 200% better than charisma, then have your charisma at exactly 1/2 your perception. If you're that hard-core to min-max, that won't be an issue, will it?

And as to those who would rather quit than scrap your character: WTF? I was miffed when they added in advanced learning skills after I was playing for months. People younger than me were able to catch up. Then I was miffed when new bloodlines were introduced with better balanced stats that I would have picked had they been available when I started. You didn't see me start over, did you? Did you see me all over the boards going "OMFG WTF? CHANGE MY CHAR TO NEW BLOODLINE!" did you? I would have done the P2 if I had more money to spend and enjoyed the new bloodlines, but I don't and I didn't. I'm still happy with my character, and I got over it all. I still wish I had advanced learning before I trained all the way to Interceptors and Covert Ops and just basic learning skills.

So just grow up and learn. If your character was less than a month old, and you learned that you didn't want to do what your character was good at, then start over. If you don't, then deal.

This man is a genius, and i havent read past his post yet

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Apertotes

Sun, 18 Jun 2009 22:00:00 +0000

Originally by: Phaese
I disagree. From the fact that CCP has hinted at other forms of attribute reallocation (booster, DNA modification, etc), I think it's safe to assume that they haven't eliminated the possibility of implementing it.

in fact you are just dismissing the biggest form of atribute reallocation that CCP has developed, and i doubt they will ever do anything as powerful as it, which is learning skills. no matter what your initial atributes are, you can get as much as 11 more points to every atribute, and even more with implants.

dont believe dna modifications or boosters will be even half as powerful as them.

Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Raven

Sun, 18 Jun 2009 19:00:00 +0000

Originally by: Phaese

I disagree. From the fact that CCP has hinted at other forms of attribute reallocation (booster, DNA modification, etc), I think it's safe to assume that they haven't eliminated the possibility of implementing it.

In that case you are just misinformed. Although the devs did hint sometime in the past that they were going to implement attribute boosters that is no longer the case. All the new Cosmos boosters are effectively going to be skill boosters, for example boosting turret damage, reducing rate of fire and etc. None of them are going to be attribute enhancers, apparently they abandoned that idea some time ago.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sun, 18 Jun 2009 16:08:00 +0000

Edited by: Phaese on 18/06/2006 16:11:05
Good points, and I agree with most of them.

Quote:
CCP is against the idea, if we can make that conclusion from the fact that they have heard the cries for three years now and only thing they did is to slowly increase the number of cha-related skills.

I disagree. From the fact that CCP has hinted at other forms of attribute reallocation (booster, DNA modification, etc), I think it's safe to assume that they haven't eliminated the possibility of implementing it.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Logan Feynman

Sun, 18 Jun 2009 14:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Phaese
I'm still curious about my earlier question...

... Why do people have a problem with a player who didn't know better as a noob altering his/her attributes so that he can train as fast as others in his chosen "career" in eve (PvP, manufacturing, etc.)?

Now, I notice you like logical arguments, so you might appreciate the following:

1. Charisma is of little use to most players
2. Most players have a problem with players altering their attributes after character creation

You should note that your question is, in fact, irrelevant, in the same sense that the question "why is charisma of little use to most players" also irrelevant to the current situation. Neither is neccessary logical. But both statements are true.

People are entitled to having their opinion, and that includes their prefferences. Percentage of people in favour of attribute redistribution is apparently lesser than the percentage of people against it.

CCP is against the idea, if we can make that conclusion from the fact that they have heard the cries for three years now and only thing they did is to slowly increase the number of cha-related skills.

Therefore ... come to terms that you cannot change your attributes in a way not currently supported in-game. Your options are:
1. Make a new character
2. Stick with the current character
3. Quit playing
4. Whine on the forums until you grow so tired/annoyed/aggravated that you choose 1), 2) or 3).

However, to answer your question despite its irelevance:
- Some players are rather proud of themselves that they made what they percieve is a wise and informed decision. In a highly-competitive game such as eve, they would suddenly lose an advantage they feel they have earned.
- It would be difficult to implement, game-balance wise, which would take a lot of resources from more important projects, such as balancing ships and modules that are not even in the game yet.
- It would be unfair to all the people that played for a while, then re-rolled and started again

I was careless when I chose my attributes. My cha is higher than both my will and perception. However, as I said, I did not care at that moment. Now, when I care a bit more, I feel it would be unfair to those who cared from the start. I like my main, and would not change it now, after all the training, so the only sensible thing to do is to stop being obsessed with skillpoints and attributes and just enjoy the game, without whining about the poor choices I have made.

And where would your arguments lead us to? Because a player did not have enough information at the start, they have the right to change - so, how about the starting skills? - could we change those, too. How about changing the entire first month of training to skills that make more sense?

You can change your attributes - it's called re-rolling. And you pay a cost, not in ISK but in the training time you lose. That cost is rather low for the first month, but you valued your time more than your attributes.

And to paraphrase a very rude reply you gave to another poster:
I think you are biased in your opinion because you cannot come to terms with the only real options you are left with, and want another way out of what you percieve is a cardinal mistake.

Originally by: Marvin the Paranoid Android
You live and learn. At any rate, you live.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sat, 17 Jun 2009 00:47:00 +0000

I'm still curious about my earlier question...

... Why do people have a problem with a player who didn't know better as a noob altering his/her attributes so that he can train as fast as others in his chosen "career" in eve (PvP, manufacturing, etc.)?

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Apertotes

Mon, 12 Jun 2009 22:14:00 +0000

Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Apertotes
nevertheless, it is important for some careers, like mision running, or trading, or leadership or corp management.

It's not important for any of these because even if you are highly specialized in them you will need to train other skills to an extent where it is much better to have a crappy charisma and good other attributes to make up for it. The only character charisma is the best choice for is a trading/corp management alt that stops training after finishing the needed skills.

great job quoting one sentence

i said charisma is the least important atribute. i know that. i just said that for some careers it might be relevant. i have a miner/producer/refiner/trader character. of course, he is an intaki, with 3 points on perception originally. only skills he has trained that use perception are drones (perception is secondary), navigation (perception is secondary), mining barge 5 (perception is primary) and exhumers (perception is secondary).

he's got 11 million sp now, of which only 1'5 million are perception based. the rest is primary memory and intel based cause i decided to train mining, refining and producing stuff first. from now on i will focuse on trading skills.

when i am finished, i will have much more charisma based sp than perception based.

so yes, charisma can be important on some niche professions.

anyway, in the end, i get 55 more points to add to my atributes, so those 39 you get at creation are not the end of the world.

my point is, charisma is the least used atribute, but there are already game features that let you raise your starting atributes by more than 300%, so i dont see why would anybody need to respec their atributes. even with 3 points on perception i can easily get it to 19.8 (3 +10 learning skills +5 implant +10% learning skill)

Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Jin Entres

Mon, 12 Jun 2009 21:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Apertotes
nevertheless, it is important for some careers, like mision running, or trading, or leadership or corp management.

It's not important for any of these because even if you are highly specialized in them you will need to train other skills to an extent where it is much better to have a crappy charisma and good other attributes to make up for it. The only character charisma is the best choice for is a trading/corp management alt that stops training after finishing the needed skills.
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CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Shayla Sh'inlux

Mon, 12 Jun 2009 20:44:00 +0000

Total skillpoints in relevant PvP trees added up. Top three are the per/wil skills, bottom set is the int/mem/cha stuff.

Space Ship Command - 119.552.000
Gunnery - 45.568.000
Missile Launcher Operation - 19.200.000

Leadership - 12.800.000
Engineering: - 15.616.000
Electronics - 16.128.000
Navigation - 10.752.000
Drones - 19.456.000

Let's just cut the space ship command by 2/3, to be more realistic. Nobody is going to train 4 titans to level 5. Let's cut Gunnery in half; not many people will use all large t2 turrets.

Let's then also cut drones by 1/2 since about 80% of all those skillpoints in drones are in Fighters lvl 5 and the drone specializations lvl 5. Then we need to remove the mining director skills since they're well, irrelevant PvP-wise.

That gets us to the following totals:

Per/wil: 81,8 mil skillpoints (roughly)

Other stuff (lot of perception primary btw): 60,2 mil skillpoints.

See the problem yet?

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Mon, 12 Jun 2009 13:47:00 +0000

Edited by: Phaese on 12/06/2006 13:47:28
Any skill that allows you to fly or better fly a combat ship, I consider to be a PvP skill.

In general, PvP skills are skills from: Drones, Electronics, Engineering, Gunnery, Leadership, Mechanic, Missile Launcher Operation, Navigation, and Spaceshipcommand. Obviously there are exceptions, such as the science skill Graviton Physics needed to interdictor sphere launchers. My point was that charisma is useless to train these skills, except for Leadership, but that's a specialization.

The other skills could be useful to a PvP character, of course, but not in PvP.

EDIT: Crazy italics error fix't.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Pottsey

Mon, 12 Jun 2009 11:16:00 +0000

Regardless, though, it's not a PvP skill
I am curious how do you define what is and isnt a PvP skill?

Passive shield tanking guide, click here.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Mon, 12 Jun 2009 00:06:00 +0000

Originally by: Apertotes
well, i got many reasons for not wanting.

first, because those of us that chose balanced atributes instead of maxing one or two atributes on behalf of an average training for everything, will see that people trained more efficiently some skills, and then, instead of training slower other skills, they just respec, and get to train very fast those other skills too.

second, EVE is a competitive game. if i was at war against BoB, and they got reimbursed their losses, i would feel not very good. so i do not like people getting out of game advantadges, and if people can train faster than i can, it is bad for me.

third, i started late into the game and have been suffering many veteran players tell me that "sp dont matter". now i am glad to see veteran players getting shafted.

four, EVE is a game of decissions and strategy. why cant i recycle my loot for full profit? because i dont have all those refining skills. why is people earning more money than me doing missions? because they trained the different connections skills. i chose balanced atributes, but quite low willpower and charisma, so now i suffer the consequences of having to spend a lot of time to learn trade and social skills, so i just dont train them, and i am losing money by not doing so. some people decided to have a high charisma, and trained all those skills, and now are getting much more money and getting "discounts" for every market operation they do. but, they train navigation skills slower than me. well, it was their decision. if people could go back and undo their decisions, it would spoil the strategic appeal of the game.

So, here are your reasons:

1) People will train faster than me.
2) People will train faster than me.
3) I like seeing others get screwed over.
4) People need to suffer the consequences of their actions.

Before I comment on your reasoning, I'll readdress something I've explained already (that you brought up in your first reason)... It's not like the reallocation system would allow for people to change their attributes whenever they swap skills. It would be a one-time thing with limited ability to change... Plus, if people training one tree then swapping and training another really becomes an issue, there are countermeasures.

The first countermeasure that pops into my head is creating reallocation "applications" that players who want them would fill out. ISD or someone would look at the desired changes, look at the players explanation of why they want to change, and look at the skills they've trained already. If the player has 3m SP and they're all in science, but the player wants to move points into perception, his request would get shot down (perception in a seemingly research character would raise eyebrows). However, if a 10m SP character applied to lower his high base charisma and he had no more than 100k SP in charisma-based skills, his request would be seen as legit.

I was going to comment on your reasons, but I don't really feel like writing that up; I'm pretty sure I've already writted counterpoints to most of those already in this thread, and I can't be arsed to repeat them right now. My oversimplification of your points at the top of this post basically covers what I think of what you said, which was basically, "**** you guys, I like training faster than you, stfu and buy some implants".

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Apertotes

Sun, 11 Jun 2009 23:22:00 +0000

Originally by: Phaese
Here is my question for you: Why is it a problem if a player can readjust their attributes to train as fast as another character in their chosen career?

why would you want to advance as fast as anybody? lets give +5 implants to everybody also, and maxed learning skills, and 3 years of training

well, i got many reasons for not wanting.

first, because those of us that chose balanced atributes instead of maxing one or two atributes on behalf of an average training for everything, will see that people trained more efficiently some skills, and then, instead of training slower other skills, they just respec, and get to train very fast those other skills too.

second, EVE is a competitive game. if i was at war against BoB, and they got reimbursed their losses, i would feel not very good. so i do not like people getting out of game advantadges, and if people can train faster than i can, it is bad for me.

third, i started late into the game and have been suffering many veteran players tell me that "sp dont matter". now i am glad to see veteran players getting shafted.

four, EVE is a game of decissions and strategy. why cant i recycle my loot for full profit? because i dont have all those refining skills. why is people earning more money than me doing missions? because they trained the different connections skills. i chose balanced atributes, but quite low willpower and charisma, so now i suffer the consequences of having to spend a lot of time to learn trade and social skills, so i just dont train them, and i am losing money by not doing so. some people decided to have a high charisma, and trained all those skills, and now are getting much more money and getting "discounts" for every market operation they do. but, they train navigation skills slower than me. well, it was their decision. if people could go back and undo their decisions, it would spoil the strategic appeal of the game.

so for me, it is a no, no to realocate atributes. yes for more charisma based skills. if you dont feel good with your training rate, train another thing. if you dont want to, start another character, or remember vet's favorite quote, skill points dont matter.

but dont try to change the game to absolve you of your own bad decissions

still, i insist, only 26% of my atributes are from character creation, the rest are completely chosen by me and everybody is free to do the same. doesnt matter what your 39 first atribute points were, you can easily get 50 more, and more with implants, and more with the learning skill.

even a pure intaki could easily get up to 17 or 18 points on perception.

Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sun, 11 Jun 2009 22:25:00 +0000

Here is my question for you: Why is it a problem if a player can readjust their attributes to train as fast as another character in their chosen career?

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Apertotes

Sun, 11 Jun 2009 19:24:00 +0000

Originally by: Phaese
Originally by: Apertotes
Originally by: Phaese
Another shameless bump for a topic detailing a problem that needs fixing.

no it doesnt. let the thread rest in peace. charisma is fine.

Charisma is only half the problem.

right now, charisma is the less used atribute. we can all agree at that. nevertheless, it is important for some careers, like mision running, or trading, or leadership or corp management.

if you got a high charisma but dont enjoy any of those activities, it is your fault, you should have rerolled a long time ago.

if every time a new player starts a thread about how they will never be able to catch veterans and how unfair it is, we get all the veteran saying skill points dont matter, is player skill, even a 2-month player can beat a 2-year player if he knows what he is doing... bla bla bla bla... now, you want to convince us new players that you should be able to change your atibutes, so that you train more efficiently your gunnery skills? no way. suffer your atributes, or start another character, or buy a +5 perception implant. skill points dont matter

pd: now, i agree that new charisma based skills wouldnt be a bad thing.

pd2: anyway, there are 30 atributes at character creation, and then 5 that you choose, and 4 more from bloodlines. that sums 39. after that, you get 50 more points from skills. so, only 43% of your atributes belong to character creation, even less only belong to race election, and i havent taken into account the learning skill effect, which efectively adds 2 points to every attribute, and implants.

so, in my case, with atributes of 25.3, 25.3, 23.1, 19.8,19.8, only 26% of my atributes belong to race election, the other 74% have been completely controlled by me.

Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sun, 11 Jun 2009 16:13:00 +0000

Originally by: Apertotes
Originally by: Phaese
Another shameless bump for a topic detailing a problem that needs fixing.

no it doesnt. let the thread rest in peace. charisma is fine.

Charisma is only half the problem.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Jin Entres

Sun, 11 Jun 2009 12:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Apertotes
Originally by: Phaese
Another shameless bump for a topic detailing a problem that needs fixing.

no it doesnt. let the thread rest in peace. charisma is fine.

The title is misleading - charisma does not need to be scrapped, but it does need more use in terms of useful skills to train.
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CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Apertotes

Sun, 11 Jun 2009 10:23:00 +0000

Originally by: Phaese
Another shameless bump for a topic detailing a problem that needs fixing.

no it doesnt. let the thread rest in peace. charisma is fine.

Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sun, 11 Jun 2009 05:05:00 +0000

Another shameless bump for a topic detailing a problem that needs fixing.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Upsen Downs

Thu, 8 Jun 2009 20:48:00 +0000

I thought that having a good charisma would be good for shipboard morale, boy was I wrong.

Apparently ships are controlled by a single person... You.

It's some Jovian technology explained away by this short story:

Short Story: Jovian Wetgrave

Btw, the names of the Jovians in the story - Anu, Yed, and Elas, is strangely similar to "One Day Sale" spelled backwards.

"This is a capsule," Anu said to the Caldari. "It is used to control a ship. With it a ship a big as this one can be controlled with only a handful of crew and smaller ships, like your frigates, can even be controlled by a single person."
"How is this possible?" Ouriye asked. He was obviously skeptical, even if he didn't seem as surprised by what Anu said as the other Caldari.
"The controller, captain if you like, of the ship is stationed inside the capsule. Through it, he's neural rigged to all parts of the ship. The capsule is like one gigantic computer, with the captain at the core, controlling everything." Any answered.
"But how can a single man control a whole ship?" Ouriye pressed.
"Thank you, captain, I was coming to that. As I said, the captain acts as the central unit in a highly advanced computer. This role allows him to access and evaluate data at extreme pace. He can easily handle the jobs it takes 5 or 10 people to do normally. It also makes him a better commander, he has better understanding and awareness of his environment and he's not boggled down by tedious crew management issues and frequent communication breakdowns are now history."
--
Braving the Ups and Downs of New Eden.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Wed, 7 Jun 2009 16:04:00 +0000

Originally by: FireFoxx80
Any Leadership skill springs to mind, and to use Command Ships; requires Charisma.

Originally by: Phaese
Charisma does nothing for PvP besides the leadership tree, which is a specialization anyway.

Also, Pottsey, thanks for pointing out that that's a charisma-based skill. I hadn't noticed that. Regardless, though, it's not a PvP skill, and it only takes a few hours to train it to a reasonable level anyway; it's not like it's a skill that demands level V or even level IV.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by FireFoxx80

Wed, 7 Jun 2009 12:45:00 +0000

Any Leadership skill springs to mind, and to use Command Ships; requires Charisma.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Pottsey

Wed, 7 Jun 2009 12:24:00 +0000

Infomorph Psychology springs to mind for a Charisma PvP skill.

Passive shield tanking guide, click here.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by 4 LOM

Wed, 7 Jun 2009 11:03:00 +0000

Originally by: Matthew

Originally by: Phaese
3) "Stop whining about it, it's just SP". Funny how I've never seen an Intaki say anything like that... Basically, this is saying, "guys, I really like being able to train faster than you, so shove off."

I deliberately put my attributes to be about the same for all, as I knew I didn't know enough to min-max them effectively.

BINGO, I chose my race (caldari) because a freind just starting the game said be caldari thats what i am that way we can play together (he had no idea about eve either). then there were these atribute dealy things.... i had never played a MMORG and had 0 clue about eve, so i decided its probably best to try and have the same number for each.

Now i can train what ever i want and i dont care about its primary or secondary attribute. Guess i was either lucky or smart i cant decide but all i know is that part of my brain said there must be a reason for these numbers could having one really low or one really high be bad? and the answer was most likely.

Originally by: Twilight Moon
of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Wed, 7 Jun 2009 01:21:00 +0000

... Uh, want to share?

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Pottsey

Tue, 6 Jun 2009 08:13:00 +0000

"Charisma does nothing for PvP besides the leadership tree, which is a specialization anyway."
I can think of a usefull none Leadership skill based around Charisma which is very usefull for PvP.

Passive shield tanking guide, click here.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Mon, 5 Jun 2009 21:29:00 +0000

There's two problems and two obvious solutions.

One, Charisma is useless. Just add in new skills that serve a variety of characters. Problem solved. Upping the ranks of current skills is a stupid idea, it just makes training even harder for Charisma players. More skills is the way to go.

Two, players are stuck with attributes that don't suit their play style and are thus gimped. Solution here is attribute reallocation. Done.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Cpt Abestos

Mon, 5 Jun 2009 18:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Arutema
Originally by: Phaese
Charisma does nothing for PvP besides the leadership tree, which is a specialization anyway.

And I don't think CCP MEANT Charisma to be all that important to PvP.

The Charisma fix i'd like to see:
a) Take the [foo] Connections skillbooks out of the offer tables and seed them on the market.
b) Raise the [foo] Connections skills to rank 5 or higher.

that still wont make charisma any more usefull to the people out in 0.0 as there are no agents outside of npc sov regions, not to mention you make more isk belt hunting/mining in 00 than you do doing gimped agents.
Charisma isnt used in industry except for the odd skill here and there and it's almost never the primary attrib.
It seems that realeasing a bunch of must have charisma based skills this late in the game is sure to **** more people off than if you just scrapped the attrib.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Arutema

Mon, 5 Jun 2009 18:26:00 +0000

Originally by: Phaese
Charisma does nothing for PvP besides the leadership tree, which is a specialization anyway.

And I don't think CCP MEANT Charisma to be all that important to PvP.

The Charisma fix i'd like to see:
a) Take the [foo] Connections skillbooks out of the offer tables and seed them on the market.
b) Raise the [foo] Connections skills to rank 5 or higher.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Shayla Sh'inlux

Mon, 5 Jun 2009 00:42:00 +0000

Just because a few guys trained a load of charisma skills because they like their agent so much or because they specialized in leadership because of their gimped charisma, doesn't justify the fact that Charisma is useless and Perception is the only attribute that matters in the long run.

Two exceptions doesn't make an attribute good. Neither does one specific fitting make passive shieldtanking good.

There are literally thousands of people that have gimped attributes because CCP keeps adding high rank must-have perception skills and makes the charisma/memory skills cute goodies for specialists. That is a problem and has always been a problem and as long as this game exists without at least allowing us to redistribute the 5 starting points, it will be a problem and people WILL be posting about it.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Mon, 5 Jun 2009 00:23:00 +0000

Charisma does nothing for PvP besides the leadership tree, which is a specialization anyway.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Kalixa Hihro

Sun, 4 Jun 2009 21:54:00 +0000

Originally by: andronymous
Edited by: andronymous on 20/05/2006 08:51:48
This is an unashamedly personally motivated moan from an Intaki chharacter, but is there any chance of just scrapping the Charisma attribute?
Where it is a primary or secondary attribute for skills reassign these to other attributes.
Let us take our charisma attribute points and reallocate them to other attributes (may mean some changes to the speed of learning formulae)
Other than for a minority of characters it is of so little use as to be rendered almost meaningless.
I appreciate I am responsible for having such a high charisma, but the only thing I seem to remember reading before creating my character was that it might be useful for mission running, which seemed like an interested activity at the time.
Haven't tried creating a character for a while, but maybe an alternative is that it comes with a health warning at the get go.
End of moan.

Charisma is used for leadership, social and market skills. Important for pvp and industry skills.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sun, 4 Jun 2009 19:54:00 +0000

I agree. Charisma has it's place, there are skills that use it, and many characters have had their high charisma take them very far in skill training. I don't want charisma to be taken out of the game, though it could definitely use a few more skills.

My problem is with how players who had no idea how the game works and foolishly didn't reroll are stuck with a handicap for the rest of their time playing because they aren't in the minority that wants to specialize in charisma-based skills.

Thus why I push for reallocation.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Alhanna Daeragos

Sun, 4 Jun 2009 03:19:00 +0000

I disagree. A few reasons: Social skills, Trade Skills, Corporation Managements skills. In any RPG type environment there needs to be a variable to simulate 'people' skills. To use an old system for example:
Strength, Dexterity, Constitution
Intelligence, Wisdom
Charisma.

The first three represent ones physical prowess, or lack there, of a character.
Division two includes those mental faculties incorporated by that character. Knowing, and "Common Sense".
The third factors physical appearance, attitude, etc.

Charisma in Eve is a vital attribute, not only would getting rid of it be asinine, but it would flaw the very fundamental 'realism' of the game. Mental strengths, and physical aptitude have nothing to do with interactions with other NPCs, let alone PC's. Most people however tend to be themselves in Eve, some prefer to roleplay. Some cannot differentiate between the two.

I wouldn't expect it to be changed anytime soon, and like another said you had the option when you created the character, and you have the option of altering it after the creation of the character. There are limitations placed on these according to race, their descriptions state this decisively.

Don't hold your breath.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sat, 3 Jun 2009 20:46:00 +0000

I'm saying that at 39 million skillpoints, of course you don't care about being gimped or think that you're gimped at all. If I had 39 million skillpoints, I wouldn't care about changing this situation at all either.

However, I don't have 39 million skillpoints, and I'm stuck trying to play as a combat character with high charisma because I didn't research the game before I made my character.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Pottsey

Sat, 3 Jun 2009 12:51:00 +0000

I am with Hardin here. My Charisma is not as impressive being only 25 but like him I have 39,198,378 million skill points and I joined the game pretty late a good 6 months to a year after it came out. Not sure precisely how late.

But either way joining so late with a high Charisma and high skillpoints I dont feel Charisma has hold me back. If anything it gave me more skillpoints over having a low Charisma.

Passive shield tanking guide, click here.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Hardin

Sat, 3 Jun 2009 08:27:00 +0000

Edited by: Hardin on 03/06/2006 08:28:38

Originally by: Phaese

Umm what are you trying to say here?

Is it

a) You have been playing since Day 1 and only have 39,645,517 skillpoints due to your 27 charisma - you noob?

or

b) Your not complaining about Charisma holding you back because you have 39,645,517 skillpoints - you noob?

If it is option b - then it kinda proves the point - I have 39,645,517 skillpoints DESPITE having 27 Charisma - hence demonstrating that high Charisma really makes very little serious difference (apart from maybe having a few SP less than my contemporaries which tbh has very little practical ingame effect) :P

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Hardin's Blog

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Risk

Sat, 3 Jun 2009 06:49:00 +0000

I beta tested this game, as well as played it from the first day it came out.

For the people who said attributes didnt have descriptors when the game came out, are full of non-sense, even in beta people knew what the attributes did during player creation. My character, i knew was going to be combat, so i rolled high perc/will. And still today my character came out perfect.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sat, 3 Jun 2009 04:27:00 +0000

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Hardin

Fri, 2 Jun 2009 15:40:00 +0000

Originally by: Tripoli
Look to the future, folks. Charisma will slowly become more and more needed as the game continues to evolve. Trust me.

You will all fear me then

Seriously - As Oosel (the only other person I know with 27 Charisma) said charisma doesn't need to hold you back.

In EVE you are what you make yourself and SP's don't really matter In fact they are coming in quite handy atm in my training for my Fleet Command Ship...

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Hardin's Blog

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Dano Sarum

Fri, 2 Jun 2009 12:37:00 +0000

Theres way too many skills that are PERC based ... aka combat based too. Thats all the problem is. The longer you're playing the longer you realise "hey, those *** achura and khanid can train and get SP way way way faster then I can!".

I took a crappy low PERC roll in favour of support skills, INTENTIONALLY, I figured that I'd have better fittings and equipment early on rather then decent gunnery skills... nope, weapons upgrades / advanced weapon upgrades for some reason were in the gunnery tree and thus PERC primary. Come on man if you want combat PERC got it ALL.

Can't some skills just be redistributed under different headers / primaries / secondaries and make char either more usefull or more appealing to do something except kill people?

I mean jeez, even carebears need PERC for the ORE Ships.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Thu, 1 Jun 2009 16:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Laramon Questor
Originally by: Phaese
1) "Your fault".

2) "You should have rerolled".

3) "Stop whining about it, it's just SP".

Also, you're right; there is no easy way to prevent someone from training up an entire skilltree and then just switching. It's not really a problem anyway.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Laramon Questor

Thu, 1 Jun 2009 04:09:00 +0000

Look at me. I'm Seb. My int is out of this world. Why, do you ask?

I USED COMMON SENSE.

I started back in December '04. I had no idea what the game was like, I just rolled the dice and bought an account. I also didn't know about the custom option, so ended up with the stats that were given to me. Am I complaining? No.

I thought I wanted to be a scientist type character, and so I would need int. I found out that wasn't for me, but I haven't regretted it.

I thought that I didn't want to interact much with people, so I wouldn't need charisma. I ended up with 3 or 4. I still have a few charisma skills, which are useful.

I wasn't sure what memory would be used for, but I figured it had something to do with int, so I picked a bloodline that was closely balanced with int.

Perception/willpower are my weak points bar charisma. But I am one HELL of a pilot. Why? Because my support skills are good, so I can cram a load of crap on the ships I train for. Yeah, it takes a long time to train for new ships, but it's worth it when I can fly them because they're immediately deadly.

Now on the topic of rerolls... NOOOOOOO!

What's to stop someone from training charisma skills up, and them switching to another line? Nothing. You could max out charisma when you start, train a good way into the charisma tree, then switch to another tree for the rest of your life. Completely takes out the point of specializing.

Also you have to consider: If perception is 200% better than charisma, then have your charisma at exactly 1/2 your perception. If you're that hard-core to min-max, that won't be an issue, will it?

And as to those who would rather quit than scrap your character: WTF? I was miffed when they added in advanced learning skills after I was playing for months. People younger than me were able to catch up. Then I was miffed when new bloodlines were introduced with better balanced stats that I would have picked had they been available when I started. You didn't see me start over, did you? Did you see me all over the boards going "OMFG WTF? CHANGE MY CHAR TO NEW BLOODLINE!" did you? I would have done the P2 if I had more money to spend and enjoyed the new bloodlines, but I don't and I didn't. I'm still happy with my character, and I got over it all. I still wish I had advanced learning before I trained all the way to Interceptors and Covert Ops and just basic learning skills.

So just grow up and learn. If your character was less than a month old, and you learned that you didn't want to do what your character was good at, then start over. If you don't, then deal.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Raider Zero

Wed, 31 May 2009 18:54:00 +0000

Other games have done re-rolls after major patches that majorly change gameplay (CoH comes to mind). It's not hard and would stop this bickering. I rolled Min-Seb by accident, and ended up with decent balance, but not as good as if I re-rolled. However my 4.5 million SP are not going to go to waste over the chance that I could be better if I re-rolled.

I vote in favor of a one-time re-roll for current characters, initial attributes only, and with the same rules as new char creation (not 28 attrib pts.-put them where you want them). Then implement it for all new characters at one month -any longer and you'll have everybody and their brother noticing that the simple learning skills are all int/mem and loading up for the first month, then redistributing for the remainder of their life.

The re-roll this way would allow the well prepared to train learning skills fast and would allow those of us who fell in during a trial to kiss our dates before we marry them.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Wed, 31 May 2009 07:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Iratus Caelestis
Originally by: SonOfAGhost
Any wagers on the new Kali-related skills being charisma heavy? The OP and his supporters seem very short-sighted to me.

People have been saying this for over 2 years. Then again Kali is over a year overdue.

All we've gotten was a few leadership skills that you'll only want to take one speciality track in and be fully trained in 8 weeks and a bunch of trades skills that take even less time to train and a large percentage of the player base don't care enough about to train more than a couple of skills to level 4.

It just strikes me as odd that they come up with the genius of the time based system and then limit every single person that uses it, I know they want to sell additional accounts, one for industry/research one for NPC'ing and PvP, I think that is a bit greedy. Equally expecting people to reroll after a couple of weeks because they now know better is equally unreasonable, its sensible but people shouldn't have to do it.

There's also the point of view that there is little point in training anything other than a Caldari Achura now. If we followed some peoples geeky methodology and read all the forums for 3 days before creating a character they are just about the only logical choice.

I think Eve could learn something from Conan (don't ask) and perhaps give everyone generic attributes of 7 across the board for the first month and then give them the chance to choose after that. It would give people the chance to experiment and find a play style before making their massively important decision.

All the existing characters should have a one off chance of spending something like 100m isk to go back to the Character creation screen and redo their attributes whilst still maintaining the race limits.

Perhaps we could use our complex fullrene shards / blood drops for this :)

I agree with the fact that an option like that needs to be implemented, but there's two problems here. First, pushing for a consistant 7 across the board is not going to happen; it's too radical for it to ever happen. Second, charging isk is a dumb idea for a service like that; it gives some characters the ability to change for every set of skills they do.

A one-time reroll that's only accessible to 1-2 month-old players is a better idea in my opinion (a "reroll" simply being a player getting to redistribute their 5 extra points and their rechoose their ancestry).

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Pottsey

Tue, 30 May 2009 17:09:00 +0000

All we've gotten was a few leadership skills that you'll only want to take one speciality track in and be fully trained in 8 weeks and a bunch of trades skills that take even less time to train and a large percentage of the player base don't care enough about to train more than a couple of skills to level 4.
We got more then a few leadership skills. There was clone jumping and all the connections books for mission runners. Wasnt there some research lab management skill books as well?

Passive shield tanking guide, click here.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Iratus Caelestis

Tue, 30 May 2009 09:13:00 +0000

Originally by: SonOfAGhost
Any wagers on the new Kali-related skills being charisma heavy? The OP and his supporters seem very short-sighted to me.

People have been saying this for over 2 years. Then again Kali is over a year overdue.

All we've gotten was a few leadership skills that you'll only want to take one speciality track in and be fully trained in 8 weeks and a bunch of trades skills that take even less time to train and a large percentage of the player base don't care enough about to train more than a couple of skills to level 4.

It just strikes me as odd that they come up with the genius of the time based system and then limit every single person that uses it, I know they want to sell additional accounts, one for industry/research one for NPC'ing and PvP, I think that is a bit greedy. Equally expecting people to reroll after a couple of weeks because they now know better is equally unreasonable, its sensible but people shouldn't have to do it.

There's also the point of view that there is little point in training anything other than a Caldari Achura now. If we followed some peoples geeky methodology and read all the forums for 3 days before creating a character they are just about the only logical choice.

I think Eve could learn something from Conan (don't ask) and perhaps give everyone generic attributes of 7 across the board for the first month and then give them the chance to choose after that. It would give people the chance to experiment and find a play style before making their massively important decision.

All the existing characters should have a one off chance of spending something like 100m isk to go back to the Character creation screen and redo their attributes whilst still maintaining the race limits.

Perhaps we could use our complex fullrene shards / blood drops for this :)

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Karx

Tue, 30 May 2009 02:18:00 +0000

lets just scrap it all and go with d&d attributes:
strength
dexterity
wisdom
constitution
intelligence
charisma

jk

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Lorette

Tue, 30 May 2009 00:09:00 +0000

As ive always said some charisma skills will come along some day and all the people with 26 per/will and 3 charisma will cry . Its not a race to get the most sp, im probably about 10-20 days behind someone with high perception after 6 months, big whoop.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Mon, 29 May 2009 20:17:00 +0000

Originally by: Nikoo
Edited by: Nikoo on 29/05/2006 18:47:39
hahahahahahaha... *uff* sorry just let me take one moment to laugh abit more... hahahahahahaha... For crying out loud this thread tops my silliest threads ever. just one word : haha i would guess that the next big patch or maybe the one after that will add some charisma skill if you nag enough :D

Well, a few things. First: that isn't one, and those aren't words. Second: you're a ******* dumbass. _

Originally by: SonOfAGhost
Any wagers on the new Kali-related skills being charisma heavy? The OP and his supporters seem very short-sighted to me.

Oh, for christ's sake... You're totally missing the point. Regardless of what new Charisma-based skills come in, what if the player with high charisma has no desire to train that skill tree? High-charisma PvPers should basically be screwed over, then, unless they want to spec in flying a totally maxed-out command ship.

Players need to offered the option to rearrage their skillpoints to suit their play style once they've played the game a bit.

A simple system that would, just once, let the player get their 5 "free" points as well as rechoose an ancestry again would solve half the problem here (the other half being that there'd be no reason to ever take charisma, which is solved by adding new skill trees).

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by SonOfAGhost

Mon, 29 May 2009 18:43:00 +0000

Any wagers on the new Kali-related skills being charisma heavy? The OP and his supporters seem very short-sighted to me.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Nikoo

Mon, 29 May 2009 18:35:00 +0000

hahahahahahaha... *uff* sorry just let me take one moment to laugh abit more... hahahahahahaha... For crying out loud this thread tops my silliest threads ever. just one word : haha

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Neon Genesis

Mon, 29 May 2009 18:15:00 +0000

Intaki get completely rogered on charisma, i have used mine for perhaps 250 skill points, yet I start with a base of 8. This wouldn't be such an annoying point if it wern't for the fact that there are some bloodlines who have next to no, widely useless, charisma.

As the OP said, we chose it, but when you log on for the first time, charisma dosn't scream mostly useless like it does when you know something about the game.

As it is, it renders some bloodlines better than others.

There, i just contributed nothing to your thread

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Pottsey

Mon, 29 May 2009 17:55:00 +0000

If you want to take into account all minimum requirement skills, take a look at the electronics, engineering and navigation skill tree and include everything else.
I did take into account every single sub skill and none related skill in my above post. But its below again. Charisma is my 2nd highest amount of skill points at 24% and it could be higher by now. I am living evidence that Charisma can be a balanced and useful attribute.

Anyone sayings Charisma is always bad and your always should take low Charisma is wrong. It might be useless for most pilots but not every single pilot.

but I see your view as biased to justify your own situation because you don't want to admit that you would've been better off with a lower starting charisma. I've shown you the numbers, I don't intend to argue the matter any further.
I am not biased in the way you say and I admit not every pilot it like me and charisma is not best for everyone. But it really bugs me when people like you tell me you don't want to admit that you would've been better off with a lower starting charisma. I have proven low charisma is bad for me and if its bad for me then it can be bad for other pilots. If I took low Charisma and bumped up Willpower I would have less total skill points then I do now. I would most likely be on 30 to 35 million instead of 40 million.

I have 40 million skillpoints at
25% Memory
24% Intelligence
23% Perception
18% willpower
24% Charisma.

Low Charisma for some pilots can be very bad. But your wrong in flat out saying Charisma is bad. Going by my above numbers and knowing there are other pilots like me. I have to say Charisma is just fine how it is. Sure its not usefull for eveyone. But I dont go around saying scarp willpower its useless there are not many usefull skills in willpower.

In addition to that, every day the portion of charisma in your totals is decreasing as you run out of useful charisma-based skills to train, which for most people is a lot sooner than for you.
Every day my potion of skill points in charisma is increasing not decreasing. I have ran out of Perception & willpower skills to train having all my combat skills and ship skills maxed out at level 5. But still have plenty of needed Charisma skills. The above data is a few months old it wouldnt surprise me if now or in a few months I hit 35% in Charisma. 30% in Memory/Intelligence and the rest in Perception/willpower. Perhaps 40% Charisma

Passive shield tanking guide, click here.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Jin Entres

Mon, 29 May 2009 16:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Pottsey
...

Look at me. Now you've seen one leadership pilot going around with level 4 skills. Do you fly around with Command Ships I? If you want to take into account all minimum requirement skills, take a look at the electronics, engineering and navigation skill tree and include everything else.

By your own numbers even the most specialized skills only reach as far as 1/3 of the skills even when only taking into account the bare minimums to pilot the ship. In addition, charisma is not the only attribute used to train. It's at most 2/3 of the total used attributes, which would be if it were primary for all the skills which it isn't.

In addition to that, every day the portion of charisma in your totals is decreasing as you run out of useful charisma-based skills to train, which for most people is a lot sooner than for you.

I don't mean to offend you, Pottsey, but I see your view as biased to justify your own situation because you don't want to admit that you would've been better off with a lower starting charisma. I've shown you the numbers, I don't intend to argue the matter any further.

---

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Pottsey

Mon, 29 May 2009 13:27:00 +0000

Edited by: Pottsey on 29/05/2006 13:30:12
Edited by: Pottsey on 29/05/2006 13:27:59
My current skillpoints broken down my attribute are
25% Memory
24% Intelligence
23% Perception
18% willpower
24% Charisma.

Going by that I would have to say charisma is worth while for some pilots and does not need changing.

CBCs are not the toughest non-capital ships in the game, but I assume you mean them so let's have a look at the skill requirements (using Gallente as an example):
Can you name 1 single none capital ship tougher then a Command ship? They can tank way over 1000dps with ease and without cap problems.

I was talking about fleet commands with are far tougher then Field commands. By toughest I meant hardest to kill not that all the skill points are charisma based. The ships are based around gang assist and leadership which is all charisma.

That and your skill list is wrong its more like.

Its more like
Gallente Cruiser V
Gallente Frigate IV
Command Ships I
Battlecruisers V
Squadron Command IV
Leadership V
Spaceship Command V
Logistics IV
Signature Analysis V
Long Range Targeting V
Electronics 2

And if we add skills for the corresponding warfare links...
Information Warfare V
Information Warfare Specialist V
Squadron Command V

Total SP required: 10,349,455 SP
Charisma based SP required: 3,584,000 SP
Percentage of charisma based SP from total amount: 34.6%

I used lvl 5 skills as I dont see any leadership pilot in T2 Fleet Command Ships going around without lvl 5 skills. Spending 35% on charisma skill points seem's like a good enough reason not to take low charisma.

1. The minimum requirements to fly a ship are far from the skills needed to use it properly. None of those skills are charisma-based.
I see a rank 6 charisma skill in the minimum requirements and the modules for the ship also have charisma as the main attribute.

Passive shield tanking guide, click here.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sun, 28 May 2009 20:50:00 +0000

Just a shameless bump; the issue is unresolved and needs to be looked at.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Apertotes

Fri, 26 May 2009 21:59:00 +0000

Originally by: Nasir Thran
Originally by: Apertotes

+1 perception --> saves me 29 days, 9 hours
+1 charisma --> saves me 13 days, 2 hours

Please reconsider what you said. 29 to 13 days means that PERC is 200% worth CHA. (exactly it is more than 200%).

You just made the plan with your stats, were CHA is already lower ... redo with CHA and PERC changed (switch their values -> CHA 23.1, PERC 19.8), than calculate again, because the thread is about _high_ charisma and the losses thereoff (if any)

Note please that I write this only to question the argument and numbers, NOT for the sake of burning CHA on the stakes. As for the discussion: I stick with my ATTR, my ALT has them even as far as gallente can even them out. With my main, this one posting, I would rather mourn to high mem/int, which was based on a friend's suggestion. But I "jack-of-all-trades" skills with the main, and right now Leadership/Social is handy.

But I see that comparing rough numbers of CHA based skills to PERC based, CHA loses by miles. I still hope there will be more CHA based stuff in the future.

Sidenote: There is no reroll in mind, if one already
- earned ISK (sum depends on own views/experience with game)
- made some SP (sum depends on own views/experience with game)
- played some time (sum depends on own views/experience with game)(like someone else said, one rathers quits)

but i didnt say anything about perception. what i said is that for this plan (104 million sp FTW!!!!) charisma was more useful than memory and intelligence, not perception or even willpower.

and i also said that even with those numbers, it is unlikely that anybody will max out trade, leadership and social skill groups. but if anybody ever wanted to do so, then, charisma would be more important than intel and memory (if the character isnt production or science heavy)

Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Doomdutch

Fri, 26 May 2009 19:01:00 +0000

Eve is the first long-term MMORPG I've played continously for over a year (17 months to be precise). And over that period of time, I changed my style of play; I went from ultracarebearing-mining to a more pvp-oriented character.

And yes, I would find it interesting to be able to modify my attributes (for a certain fee) for a character that's been, lets say, a year or two in-game. It could be a kind of modification to your clone, and it could motivate people to stay in-game a longer, instead of quitting because a character is not fit at all.

And no, I'm not gonna start a new character.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Nasir Thran

Fri, 26 May 2009 10:38:00 +0000

Originally by: Apertotes

+1 perception --> saves me 29 days, 9 hours
+1 charisma --> saves me 13 days, 2 hours

Please reconsider what you said. 29 to 13 days means that PERC is 200% worth CHA. (exactly it is more than 200%).

You just made the plan with your stats, were CHA is already lower ... redo with CHA and PERC changed (switch their values -> CHA 23.1, PERC 19.8), than calculate again, because the thread is about _high_ charisma and the losses thereoff (if any)

Note please that I write this only to question the argument and numbers, NOT for the sake of burning CHA on the stakes. As for the discussion: I stick with my ATTR, my ALT has them even as far as gallente can even them out. With my main, this one posting, I would rather mourn to high mem/int, which was based on a friend's suggestion. But I "jack-of-all-trades" skills with the main, and right now Leadership/Social is handy.

But I see that comparing rough numbers of CHA based skills to PERC based, CHA loses by miles. I still hope there will be more CHA based stuff in the future.

Sidenote: There is no reroll in mind, if one already
- earned ISK (sum depends on own views/experience with game)
- made some SP (sum depends on own views/experience with game)
- played some time (sum depends on own views/experience with game)(like someone else said, one rathers quits)
------------
kind regards,
Nasir Thran
Jack of all damn Trades and Master of nearly none

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Sangxianc

Thu, 25 May 2009 21:41:00 +0000

I never saw the point of giving different players different attributes in the first place, other than needlessly aggravating people who pick the wrong ones when they start the game with no idea of what they're doing.

And to the people who say that everyone should research Eve before they dare play, dear christ. Get a ******* life you nerds.

Do not deny yourself experience of that which lies beyond, behind the sun, in the world they call unpeopled.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Iratus Caelestis

Thu, 25 May 2009 18:20:00 +0000

Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Iratus Caelestis
Or I might just be bitter because I've trained 30 million PvP skill points with 15 and 19 perception. A fully trained Achura can train nearly 500k a month more than me on PvP skills :(

And it will take the achura 60 months (5 years) to negate the advantage you already have due to your 30m sp, that is, if you don't continue training skills.

Hope it makes some sense :P

Even if I keep training he will over take me in total skill points in 5.5 years.

We'll be on Eve 2 by then but still.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Apertotes

Thu, 25 May 2009 17:18:00 +0000

hi, just to add something new to this topic. yesterday i was i little bit bored, so i started playing with EVEMon planning tool (great program, btw), and i made a crazy plan, that included maxing out every ship type up to BS (frig, inty, AS, cover ops, destroyer, interdictors, cruisers, logistics, recon, HAC, BC, command ships, BS) except industrial and mining ships, from 3 races, gallente, caldari and minmatar, and also maxing out hybrids, projectiles, missiles and drones (all specializations skills at level 4, support skills at level 5).

i also maxed every support skill (navigation, electronics, engineering and mechanic) and leadership skills.

i also maxed out trade and social skills (with special connections skills also to level 5)

well, no need to say the plan was huge and long (using +3 implants which i already own, and maxing learning skills, which i already have done, i should be training non-stop until May 5th, 2011 ) and i would end up with 104 million sp (i already got 15 million, so its not that much )

well, after that, i started playing around to see how much would i save if i plugged +5 implants, or even +7 (165 days and 304 days respectively).

anyway, i was curious to see what implant gave me more benefits, so i did one by one. my stats are 25.3 intel, 25.3 memory, 19.8 charisma, 23.1 perception and 18.7 willpower.

so, adding

+1 intel ----> saves me 12 days, 14 hours
+1 perception --> saves me 29 days, 9 hours
+1 memory ---> saves me 9 days
+1 charisma --> saves me 13 days, 2 hours
+1 willpower --> saves me 24 days, 15 hours

so, for a pure fighter/trader (no skills on industry, science, and corp management), is more important charisma than both intelligence and memory, it you want to max the respective skills.

have in mind i maxed out trade, social and leadership groups, which are charisma intensive, but also electronics, engineering, and mechanic which are intelligence and memory based, and also navigation that has intelligence and drones that has memory.

so in the long long long run, charisma is a very useful stat, but probably very few players end up maxing those charisma based skills.

Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Thu, 25 May 2009 16:04:00 +0000

Edited by: Phaese on 25/05/2006 16:06:00

Originally by: Zaal Nubar
*clipped* stupid crap *clipped*

I'm not going to argue with you. I've already made my points, and I don't really want to mindlessly repeat too many of them for pages upon pages. I will quote myself, however:

Originally by: Phaese
1) "Your fault". I explained that above, it's not the player's fault that there's no explanation of the attributes in the character process.

2) "You should have rerolled". Damn straight we should have. Some of us didn't have the advantage of being guided by older players who would've suggested this, though.

Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Simple solution to the charisma problem is to add ship crews(or something similar) that has a long set up charism based skills. You could also implement tier 2 leadership skills that are very similar to the current leadership skills we have atm.

Well, for one, I'm against crews. But that's not what this thread is about, so I'll leave that be. Adding in functionality fixes the problem of charisma being useless. It's already well on it's way to being "on par" with mem and willpower for a well-rounded character.

However, that ignores the second problem here: not everyone knows what they want to do in EVE when they roll their character. That means that they'd have no idea where they want their attribute points. There are three responses to this problem:

1) Train what your attributes spec in.
- This is basically forcing the player to play the game the way defined by attribute points. That's pretty dumb; I play the game, the game isn't supposed to play me.

2) Reroll.
- Ah, amazing solution there. Starting a new character with about 100k SP every time you want to do something else in EVE. Nice suggestion guys.

3) Limited Attribute Reallocation.
- A system that allows a player to let their attribute points be more in line with their play style... Yes please <3.

I'll repeat once again, a properly implemented reallocation system does nothing more than allows a player to train as effectively as another player in that class of skills. What's the problem with this? All's I see are people who dislike losing their edge on other combat pilots.

(edit) Spelling error.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Jerick Ludhowe

Thu, 25 May 2009 14:31:00 +0000

Simple solution to the charisma problem is to add ship crews(or something similar) that has a long set up charism based skills. You could also implement tier 2 leadership skills that are very similar to the current leadership skills we have atm.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Jin Entres

Thu, 25 May 2009 13:38:00 +0000

Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Iratus Caelestis
Or I might just be bitter because I've trained 30 million PvP skill points with 15 and 19 perception. A fully trained Achura can train nearly 500k a month more than me on PvP skills :(

And it will take the achura 60 months (5 years) to negate the advantage you already have due to your 30m sp, that is, if you don't continue training skills.

Hope it makes some sense :P

What about that Achura's friend who started an Intaki char at the same time?

(And so that anyone doesn't get me wrong, I don't want charisma to be removed; I want it in balance)
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CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Ryysa

Thu, 25 May 2009 12:57:00 +0000

Originally by: Iratus Caelestis
Or I might just be bitter because I've trained 30 million PvP skill points with 15 and 19 perception. A fully trained Achura can train nearly 500k a month more than me on PvP skills :(

And it will take the achura 60 months (5 years) to negate the advantage you already have due to your 30m sp, that is, if you don't continue training skills.

Hope it makes some sense :P

All about target jamming

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Iratus Caelestis

Thu, 25 May 2009 08:53:00 +0000

Quote:
Thats why theres a 14 day trial. Anyways, if you figure out what you want, youre free to restart your character whenever. But if you figure out what you want, and dont want to restart your character, thats your fault

There wasn't always a 14 day trial ;)

Personally I think the attribute system is overly restrictive as you don't necessarily know what sort of character you want to play when you first start, if after 3 weeks you realise that you aren't a macro miner and cba to be industry based then the chances of you wanting to reroll are next to none.

If I'd have done that I would undoubtably be better off but as a new player it is impossible to know that at the time.

Giving everyone a one time chance to be put back to the character creation screen to reallocate their points (based on starting race) would be great. The game has changed so much since it first started that our choices are just no longer relevant.

Or I might just be bitter because I've trained 30 million PvP skill points with 15 and 19 perception. A fully trained Achura can train nearly 500k a month more than me on PvP skills :(

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by WeetBix

Thu, 25 May 2009 05:53:00 +0000

Why not have a feature that gives all new players 7 day grace? Within those 7 days you are free to reallocate any attribute, any skill, and basically feel free to play around with your character for that whole time and decide THEN what role you want to fill. By the end of the 7 days, you will probably be in a corp, met other players, browsed the forums, and (like me) be kicking yourself that you make charisma your highest attribute when your memory is the lowest, or just wasted 6 days learning skills you completely misunderstood the term capacitor for, or even spent a week learning trading when your corp desperately needs miners. New players should not be punished for experimenting with their character and discovering the depth of the game, and by having a 'learn the game' period, this wouldn't be an issue.

Thoughts?

-----------
If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Kaathar Rielspar

Thu, 25 May 2009 05:14:00 +0000

Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 25/05/2006 05:14:17
can anyone beat 27 CHA? i have advanced learning to IV and a +4 chip

Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Originally by: Eximius Josari
If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs?

Overpriced Nos victims.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Ometoch

Thu, 25 May 2009 00:42:00 +0000

You know, after reading through two pages of replies to this post... I have a couple things to say... first off... comparing other MMORPGs and the way they do attributes and skills to EVE is comparing Apples to Oranges. Every other game requires a grind to gain XP or skills... time that you HAVE to be logged into the game, doing mindless tasks over and over again, simply to gain a point here or there. I hear people complaining that they didn't know what they wanted to specialize in, and therefore that isn't fair, blah blah blah. Here's the thing. you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT in EVE. If you started as a miner... well, guess what? you need ship skills to pilot those barges... so it makes getting into combat ships easier.... same with engineering electronics, etc. all the skills benefit each other.

Even Charisma

In fact, AFAIK, CHA is a secondary skill for the perception advanced learning skill... so... no matter what you decide to do, no one is going to argue that learning skills are important. Look. I started this game back in '04 had no idea what I was doing, and probablly have THE WORST attributes for a combat pilot, but that's just how I started. I do OK with what I do... and I don't want to be teh uberest d00d on here. I just play to have fun. remember guys, it's a frigging game, and if I remember correctly... a game is meant to be played FOR FUN.
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Fishhook

Wed, 24 May 2009 17:08:00 +0000

I agree with the poster who said that they went for balance, because they knew they didn't know enough to min-max the stats. The only problem I see with that is the character creation process - you have to apply the five free points before you have done any of the other choices. In other games I've played, that is the last step, where you can balance (or unbalance) your character as you see fit right before you click "OK". I would like to see the process changed to do those free points at the end.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Zaal Nubar

Wed, 24 May 2009 17:08:00 +0000

Quote:

And after a few weeks starting over is not an option. Many, myself included, would rather quit.

All that there needs to be is proper balance between attributes so that no matter what you choose in the beginning, you at least have the ability to be competitive by specializing in what your character is strong at. At the moment that is impossible for Charisma simply because of the lack of skills and ship and module requirements.

The only way to do this would be to get rid of the attribute system (er, to the first part)
Charisma specializers still have perception, theres nothing preventing them from training gunnery skills.
But if you still arnt satisfied with that make a new character.

Quote:
Since you have it all figured out, why don't you tell me why exactly should anyone starting a game know what they want to specialize in before they even enter the game?

Thats why theres a 14 day trial. Anyways, if you figure out what you want, youre free to restart your character whenever. But if you figure out what you want, and dont want to restart your character, thats your fault

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Jin Entres

Wed, 24 May 2009 10:21:00 +0000

Originally by: Zaal Nubar
Quote:
I selected a bloodline I liked the fluff for, added a single point of my five points into each attribute category, and selected an ancestry that I liked the fluff for. Seemed pretty generic to me at the time of created. Plus, in conventional game mechanics, you would get more attributed points to add every level, and within a bit of playing the game, your original starting choices would be insignifigant.

You reap what you sow

Did you not notice that while going through this you were picking your attribute points? As you said, the fluff is fluff, every game has it, and it never matters. If you were picking out your characteristics using that, you probally didnt have a very good idea what you were going to specialize in anyways, so its a little late go back and complain.

-To all the high charisma fighters...did you sit back during the character creation and think "Gee, wont having a high charisma help me shoot better!"..?

-If you cant be bothered to learn basic game mechanics before you play, or even after a few weeks of playing..i mean, damn. Did you not notice that during game play you werent getting little signs that you had leveled up? Anyways, train your learning skills and get decent implants, you cant still get your perception high enough to compete with your average player. Specialized players will get sp faster than you, but so what? They bothered to learn how the game works. I mean, whats next? Give everyone 100 bil so that everyone can have a titan? Or make it so everyone has 50million sp, that way players who have played longer dont have an advantage

Since you have it all figured out, why don't you tell me why exactly should anyone starting a game know what they want to specialize in before they even enter the game?

And after a few weeks starting over is not an option. Many, myself included, would rather quit.

All that there needs to be is proper balance between attributes so that no matter what you choose in the beginning, you at least have the ability to be competitive by specializing in what your character is strong at. At the moment that is impossible for Charisma simply because of the lack of skills and ship and module requirements.
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CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Zaal Nubar

Wed, 24 May 2009 05:59:00 +0000

Quote:
I selected a bloodline I liked the fluff for, added a single point of my five points into each attribute category, and selected an ancestry that I liked the fluff for. Seemed pretty generic to me at the time of created. Plus, in conventional game mechanics, you would get more attributed points to add every level, and within a bit of playing the game, your original starting choices would be insignifigant.

You reap what you sow

Did you not notice that while going through this you were picking your attribute points? As you said, the fluff is fluff, every game has it, and it never matters. If you were picking out your characteristics using that, you probally didnt have a very good idea what you were going to specialize in anyways, so its a little late go back and complain.

-To all the high charisma fighters...did you sit back during the character creation and think "Gee, wont having a high charisma help me shoot better!"..?

-If you cant be bothered to learn basic game mechanics before you play, or even after a few weeks of playing..i mean, damn. Did you not notice that during game play you werent getting little signs that you had leveled up? Anyways, train your learning skills and get decent implants, you cant still get your perception high enough to compete with your average player. Specialized players will get sp faster than you, but so what? They bothered to learn how the game works. I mean, whats next? Give everyone 100 bil so that everyone can have a titan? Or make it so everyone has 50million sp, that way players who have played longer dont have an advantage

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Laughlyn Vaughns

Wed, 24 May 2009 01:26:00 +0000

isnt charisma secondary for drones?

drone -> fighters

so if u have high charisma look into becoming a carrier pilot for an alliance, could earn a bit of cash as a hired help and ur drones will be sum of the best, quicker.

its also used in social and trade isnt it? always good for mission running, u get quicker social to higher levels meanign Specialized Connections skills to 5 quicker so more LP's and easier faction stuff, quicker accessability to agents with connections and social and then after u do all the missions u can use ur trade skills to sell all that expensive loot with 0% to the broker, lets face it selling a BS loses u about 2mill per time to broker, it all adds up, just check ur wallets journal and look at all them broker fees u've paid over last month and total them up.

u just have to look on the positive side of a 5hit situation, we didnt realise that charisma isnt the most thrillign of attributes but if u look at it properly it can pay off so its not all doom and gloom

i myself ended up with higher mem/intel/char attributes when i started and i regretted it at first cos my weaponry took time to do but with M/I/C high my ships systems skills go up a lot quicker now i have most weapons to what i need them to be i can train up all the other stuff far quicker and their is more of them than ships and gunnery skills especially if ur race specific pilotting

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Tue, 23 May 2009 03:52:00 +0000

Well, to an earlier comment about elite learning skills, I disagree; I have two beefs with 'em:

1) That adds a ton of time to the "mandatory noob skills list" total training time. And yes, they would end up as being "mandatory".
2) It contributes even more to having the "rich get richer" and "poor get poorer" in terms of SP. I don't have a problem with experiences players getting SP but there's no need to make that gap even bigger.

Anyway, as for the whole "add more Charisma skills" thing... Yes, that is a needed step. Charisma needs to be brought up to speed with at least mem/will. However, adding more cha-based skills ignores another major problem: some players have attribute points in locations that make specializing how they want to very hard. It only makes sense that the attribute point allocation should suit the play style of the pilot.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Malena Panic

Mon, 22 May 2009 16:39:00 +0000

I'd much rather see more useful Charisma-based skills, or even a conversion of some Charisma-secondary skills to primary, instead of a straight attribute reallocation.

There's a lot of sense for Leadership and Trade, for example, to be W/C skills. But I think that C/W makes just as much sense, especially since these are all arbitrary game rules in the first place.

This would still leave Willpower as an extremely useful skill with applications across a lot of skill areas as a secondary skill, and give Charisma-based characters some of the love they've been looking for in skill groups that are likely to be attractive to these players.

C'mon, CCP, throw the Charisma archetypes a bone!

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by andronymous

Mon, 22 May 2009 12:58:00 +0000

Originally by: Raven
I've been around since launch, seen a lot of similar threads, the first one probably a few months after release and I think you all know the results.

The chances of the devs ever adding a rellocating attribute points feature are about the same as Tripoli getting his wish of new elite learning skills. (Next to zero that is).

The devs have however stated that they will release more charisma based skills (almost a year or two ago) and they have partly delivered with the addition of the new leadership, trade and diplomacy skills. More will most likely follow.

Combat characters will however find little use for this attribute if they don't intend to train any of the leadership, diplomacy and trade skills. The gunnery tree and the spaceship command tree will always be perception based.

You can of course moan all you want and I do sympathize with you, but as this moan is almost three years old and has largely been ignored the whole time then you probably have a bigger chance winning the BIG lottery then the devs actually giving into your wishes.

Thank you and very well explained.

We'll be back soon - and next time we'll be bigger in numbers and better organised in our campaign

For me the arguments for allowing players to do this outweigh all the arguments I've seen against it but that's just IMHO.

'Elite Learning Skills' now there's a good idea!
It's not 'moaning', it's 'lobbying'.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Raven

Sun, 21 May 2009 23:49:00 +0000

I've been around since launch, seen a lot of similar threads, the first one probably a few months after release and I think you all know the results.

The chances of the devs ever adding a rellocating attribute points feature are about the same as Tripoli getting his wish of new elite learning skills. (Next to zero that is).

The devs have however stated that they will release more charisma based skills (almost a year or two ago) and they have partly delivered with the addition of the new leadership, trade and diplomacy skills. More will most likely follow.

Combat characters will however find little use for this attribute if they don't intend to train any of the leadership, diplomacy and trade skills. The gunnery tree and the spaceship command tree will always be perception based.

You can of course moan all you want and I do sympathize with you, but as this moan is almost three years old and has largely been ignored the whole time then you probably have a bigger chance winning the BIG lottery then the devs actually giving into your wishes.

CCP Scrap Charisma Please - by Phaese

Sat, 20 May 2009 20:35:00 +0000

I'll continue within the context of my high percep & low cha / low percep & high cha situation and say that the only effect of a realloction system that is implemented properly would be that players who currently train social/leadership skills fast would instead train gunnery/spaceship command/etc skills at a competitive speed.

That makes the majority of the playerbase stuck with high charisma quite happy.

Why is that a problem with the majority of people with lower charisma?