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Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Goumindong

Tue, 20 Mar 2008 07:50:00 +0000

Originally by: Vincent Almasy
Originally by: Ramblin Man
Originally by: Domalais
So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market.

That's terrible.
*sigh* I'm saying that if the devs see fit to rig certain markets, then why not the isotope market?

Show what markets they rig and how the rig it please.

All tech 1 mineral markets have price celings and floors attached to them. Though they are dependant on sum of mineral prices contained in the specific items.
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Goumindong

Tue, 20 Mar 2008 07:39:00 +0000

Originally by: Devian 666
I don't see how this will affect t2 production. The price of t2 will go up along with all other ships and modules. Current demands on the economy are causing inflation and that's it.

Demand increases are not inflation.
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Tue, 20 Mar 2008 04:37:00 +0000

As a non-numerical follow-up, the grapevine says ice mining turns people into zombies.

I can think of no other explanation for my ability to repeatedly and while flagged warp unscathed to and from a group of five Mackinaws and unburden them of their cans' contents.

I did it for about ten minutes and then realized that there were far, far better things that I could be doing with my time.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Pwett

Fri, 16 Mar 2008 22:45:00 +0000

Originally by: Kruugore

If you think your formula is correct, you might want to post to make your formula heard!

I did post it, that's how you saw it :)
Halada did not take the Yeti implant into effect for his numbers. It's only a marginal difference anyway.
_______________
Pwett
CEO and Founder
[QTC]QUANT Corp.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Kruugore

Fri, 16 Mar 2008 20:51:00 +0000

Edited by: Kruugore on 16/03/2007 20:49:02

Originally by: Pwett
It was a generally bad week for math for most of us, but to clarify the max possible ice mining per hour, with full gang and implants bonuses, it would be:

500 sec * 1.25 * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.952 * 0.775 * 0.95 = 233 sec
base cycle * Mackinaw * Exhumer V * Harvesting V * IHU x 2 * Full gang * Yeti II

Which comes out to 15.41 cycles per hour or 61 cubes rounded down. That's it. My numbers were off in my initial statement, so my apologies on that.

The maximum cycle time possible.

With maxed out skills is 245.90, about 60units of ice per hour.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Halada/completeminersguide_ver2.0.1halada.pdf

If you think your formula is correct, you might want to post to make your formula heard!

That's a lot of training/money/effort to barely beat scordite in a covetor!.

But if you are using the maxed out figures. You have to use the maxed out mining figures ;)

WITHOUT Taking drones into consideration, and assuming the hulk pilot uses a proper mining timer so near 0% waste occurs. A maxed out hulk pilot with CS Ship/Gang Bonuses will produce make
2347.48m3/minute

And then you have to add in what you drones bring in.... etc, you see where I'm going.

In the end it doesn't matter.

Ice isn't worthwhile right now as a career. But I do mine it. You know... when I have better things to do. Like vaccum the floors and doing some dishes. Since I only have to switch the jet cans twice an hour.

Empire Ore > Empire Ice.
0.0 Ore > 0.0 Ice

Ice needs more uses ingame TBH.

EVE Vault, A Great Community

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Pwett

Mon, 5 Mar 2008 17:15:00 +0000

It was a generally bad week for math for most of us, but to clarify the max possible ice mining per hour, with full gang and implants bonuses, it would be:


500 sec * 1.25 * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.952 * 0.775 * 0.95 = 233 sec
base cycle * Mackinaw * Exhumer V * Harvesting V * IHU x 2 * Full gang * Yeti II

Which comes out to 15.41 cycles per hour or 61 cubes rounded down. That's it. My numbers were off in my initial statement, so my apologies on that.
_______________
Pwett
CEO and Founder
[QTC]QUANT & [QTC] Industries

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Carniflex

Mon, 5 Mar 2008 14:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Sarah White
Originally by: Ramblin Man

Exhumer 5, Mackinaw
(although in truth probably being overgenerous -- a Covetor:Mackinaw comparison isn't exactly far)
44 ice units/hr (total, counting both lasers)
x300 isotopes/ice block = 13,200 isotopes/hr (empire)
7.458M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 565 isk per isotope (Scord equiv)
4.62M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 350 isk per isotope (Veld equiv)

I don't really know where you do get those figures. But basicly I get 4 Units of ICE in little bit less then 3 min with the Mackinaw. That is 80 ICE per hour. So that is almost double the profit. So I don't really see the problem you describe, but I might have missed something.

Hmm. You might want to look again at your ice miners (do you actually mine ice?). Max skills mack with T2 gear nets 44 units per hour. You see ... I dont quite buy, that you get ice miner cykle as low as 180 sec, as T2 ice miner base is 500 s and T1 ice miner base is 600s. Unless you have officer ice miners ofc ;) ...

PS Implants might help to get a bit over 44 / h, but even then I highly dount that you would hit 80.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Sun, 4 Mar 2008 22:15:00 +0000

I'd support heavily nerfing high-sec ice and creating a new, isotope-rich low-sec ice. Either balanced shy of a a super-rich 0.0 isotope ice or actually more isotope-heavy. Someone with more 0.0 logistics experience would have to tell me whether continually exporting isotopes from empire would be feasible.

In any case, yields should be one of the following for isotopes,
Empire Ice << Low Sec Ice < 0.0 Ice
Empire Ice << Low Sec Ice = 0.0 Ice
Empire Ice << Low Sec Ice > 0.0 Ice
To clarify, << means 'an order of magnitude less'

The main thing I'd like to see is a healthy, elastic market. For that to happen, 100x players mining 2 or 3 hours a day is much preferable to 12 or 13 macroers mining 24/7. If prices rise, then those players can mine/supply more ice -- the macroers, by definition, cannot.

In order to attact more "non-afk" player-miners, you're going to have to make the proposition attractive to them. Right now it's not, which is why isotopes come from forced-mining, afk mining, or macroing (none particularly compelling if your goal is to play EVE). So you rebalance ice and make low-sec mining the new hotness for isotopes. Dark Glitter is nice and all, but when you're looking at a 46%+ discrepency with Veld mining on isotope ice, not even the 17% isotope bonus on 0.0 ice sounds too attractive.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Sun, 4 Mar 2008 22:12:00 +0000

Edited by: Ramblin Man on 04/03/2007 22:09:03

You guys caught me on all the wrong math. Where were you on this one?

Since this post was supposed to be about isotopes, and I was running out the door as I composed the initial post, I forgot to discount the other empire ice materials out of the numbers.

Adjusted with those,

856.19 Scord Equiv (145% increase over current prices)

511.25 Veld Equiv (46% increase ")

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Vincent Almasy

Sun, 4 Mar 2008 16:05:00 +0000

empire ice moved to 0.7 - 0.5 system only maybe something good? less macro in pirate space.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Big Al

Sun, 4 Mar 2008 10:44:00 +0000

It's far too easy to macro ice mining with near zero risk in high sec. This is the reason that prices compare poorly to mining empire high sec ores - mackinaws sitting in the fields 23/7. We caused 10bn in damages to these "players" in a 1 month period a few months back, they barely blinked.

There definately should be ice in high sec (since POS are allowed there now) but they really need to look at either reducing the yield or making it more difficult to sit there for 23 hours sucking on the same icicle.

Just imagine the game with isotope prices based on a market supplied by real players... Would there still be the incentive to POS spam to the degree that it is done now?

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Sun, 4 Mar 2008 08:07:00 +0000

Edited by: Ramblin Man on 04/03/2007 08:05:35

Originally by: AvatarADV
It's not possible for ice to be -simultaneously- not worth anybody's time to mine, yet valuable enough to POS operation that lack of ice is affecting POS uptime on a large scale.

Yes, because ice mining competes against other types of mining. Ice use, however, does not have a substitute. Hence the dichotomy.

Quote:
The game is not responsible for your particular business model's viability.

I already said this wasn't a post as a result of a personal issue, but rather a post regarding a systemic flaw that I perceive.

Quote:
If ice becomes significantly ~~harder to come by (because of a demand spike caused by 0.0 going up in a big ball of flames, or whatever)~~ more in demand, then ice prices will increase as the wealthier POS managers bid for their share of the ice. Higher prices will induce more miners to mine ice instead of ore. Eventually a new equilibrium is reached, probably at a higher price level...

I'll answer the unquoted parts here. I disagree with your central premise, that a new equilibrium will be reached, because it is impossible for alliances to wage both total war and sustainable war at the same time. Therefore, the "new" market equilibrium is actually the result of transient market pressure, which will inevitably eventually dissipate. That brings up the "yo-yo" market problems that I'm taking issue with.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Bohoba

Sun, 4 Mar 2008 07:24:00 +0000

Originally by: III LightBringer
Ice baseprice are 176.000 PU
baseprice for Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone are 1000 isk (75 000)
Baseprice for isotopes 333.33 PU = 100 000 isk
Stront 1000 isk

So..
Untill the topes max out at around 600, there is no need to scream.

However, there is rebalansing on the way here.

4 months ago
1 unit of zyd would get you 1700 trit or 720 pyerite
Now
1 unit of Zyd will get you 750 trit or 200 pyerite

Now, that is an exchange factor change of 2.5-3.5...
With current prices, zyd VS pyer exchange are like it is intended, trit is still a bit overpriced vs zyd.. (1 zyd should give 206 pyer or 1024 trit)

Morphite on the other hand, haven't been this low since it was in Ark / bist refines..

Ice baseprice are 176.000 PU
huh wow time to go back to empire :) few weeks ago you luck to get 40,000 PU if it has jumped that much cool

Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by AvatarADV

Sun, 4 Mar 2008 04:06:00 +0000

Edited by: AvatarADV on 04/03/2007 04:11:26
It's not possible for ice to be -simultaneously- not worth anybody's time to mine, yet valuable enough to POS operation that lack of ice is affecting POS uptime on a large scale.

Ironically, boosting ice mining would make it even more unprofitable. Unlike with minerals, where surpluses can be plowed into additional equipment easily, there's only so much you can do with a backlog of isotopes. Nobody's going to go fire off a Titan main gun 24 times a day just to create demand for ice products. ;p So if miners are suddenly capable of hauling home twice as much ice, you're going to have a large surplus of ice products chasing more or less the same number of customers. Prices will crash, miners will take up ore mining or other things completely, eventually you'll reach a new equilibrium...

If you're operating a POS, and your profit from that POS is not sufficient to pay a miner to mine the ice you need to keep that POS running (whether you're paying this miner or letting the market set the price), you're out of luck. The game is not responsible for your particular business model's viability.

Another observation - all the increased fighting in 0.0 isn't just causing a spike in the demand for ice. Goodness knows that all these ships that are getting munched are coming from somewhere! Ice may not be as profitable as scordite, but pyerite prices are at historic highs due to the increased demand. (Yet they're still below the "cap", so presumably we don't need to take that into effect at the moment!)

If ice becomes significantly harder to come by (because of a demand spike caused by 0.0 going up in a big ball of flames, or whatever), then ice prices will increase as the wealthier POS managers bid for their share of the ice. Higher prices will induce more miners to mine ice instead of ore. Eventually a new equilibrium is reached, probably at a higher price level...

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Vincent Almasy

Sun, 4 Mar 2008 02:23:00 +0000

I know there are items that are only sold by NPC but i was aking for a list of items to check for what the limits for every mineral is.

As for ice, the price need to rise, i think it used to be over flooding the market or it simply became devalued form the inflation in the market. As the demand grows and uses up the current stagnet supply more supply will come in at higher values.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Kruugore

Sat, 3 Mar 2008 23:58:00 +0000

Edited by: Kruugore on 03/03/2007 23:56:34
There is no problem with the supply of ICE products on the market.

Rather than mine ICE.

I mine Scord/Kern... Make twice as much as I would mining for Amarr Ice.

Sell the minerals, then buy the ice products

Quote:
Are you dense? See all the previous comments regarding mineral prices that are capped by NPC supply.

They are actually inflation control mechanisms.

Price rises in EVE are largely due to inflation... If prices rise too much there needs to be a way to get that money out of the market. That's what those items do. People buy from npc's to refine into Trit. All of the money they spend on NPC's leave the market entirely.

I beleive that's the whole point of anything being NPC sold.

Mr. K
VIGILANT JUSTICE
CEO/FOUNDER

EVE Vault, A Great Community

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ezra

Sat, 3 Mar 2008 23:45:00 +0000

Originally by: Vincent Almasy
Originally by: Ramblin Man
Originally by: Domalais
So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market.

That's terrible.
*sigh* I'm saying that if the devs see fit to rig certain markets, then why not the isotope market?

Show what markets they rig and how the rig it please.

Are you dense? See all the previous comments regarding mineral prices that are capped by NPC supply.

i.e. certain items have infinite NPC supply and refine for a certain amount of minerals. Infinite supply at a given price = price cap.

I know for a fact that certain cargo containers capped mega prices somewhere around 13-15k back 2 years ago when mega was up in that area.

Someone said something about hull repairers capping either trit or pyer.

As to ice - I hope ice prices go up. I'm enjoying semi-profitable afkmining. (People say ice mining is boring - and they are right, it is. But with two T2 expanders, a Covetor can fit 2 full cycles of ice in its hold, 3 if it fits triple cargohold optimization rigs. It's not "indy-class" park-at-a-roid-for-two-hours AFKmining, but it can easily be done while watching TV.)

And no, I'm not talking about jetcan macromining, I'm talking about docking every 15-20 minutes while you watch TV to drop off the load.

Some guy said some stupid stuff about ice miners losing ships - Given that there's still plenty of ice in non-hub highsec, anyone who loses ships mining lowend ice must have had a lobotomy. I'm mining ice in a Covetor with no tank whatsoever.
------------
Ezra Cornell

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Vincent Almasy

Sat, 3 Mar 2008 22:13:00 +0000

Originally by: Ramblin Man
Originally by: Domalais
So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market.

That's terrible.
*sigh* I'm saying that if the devs see fit to rig certain markets, then why not the isotope market?

Show what markets they rig and how the rig it please.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Sat, 3 Mar 2008 18:48:00 +0000

Originally by: Domalais
So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market.

That's terrible.

*sigh* I'm saying that if the devs see fit to rig certain markets, then why not the isotope market?

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Domalais

Sat, 3 Mar 2008 18:15:00 +0000

So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market.

That's terrible.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Fri, 2 Mar 2008 21:17:00 +0000

Originally by: GodsWork
Man T2 producers are making too mutch money to begin with so this is only taking away that fat wallet from them. Now most t2 producers can get a chance to make the money the hard way like all the rest of us do. Ether by mining hour after boring hour or going out there and getting blown to bits. Get over it kids and stop crying.

I was talking about the public market for T2 components (I bolded it for you), which should have implied that I was not talking about T2 producers. Making components 200% more expensive isn't going to particularly hurt T2 producers either. A+ for troll though.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by III LightBringer

Fri, 2 Mar 2008 11:04:00 +0000

Ice baseprice are 176.000 PU
baseprice for Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone are 1000 isk (75 000)
Baseprice for isotopes 333.33 PU = 100 000 isk
Stront 1000 isk

So..
Untill the topes max out at around 600, there is no need to scream.

However, there is rebalansing on the way here.

4 months ago
1 unit of zyd would get you 1700 trit or 720 pyerite
Now
1 unit of Zyd will get you 750 trit or 200 pyerite

Now, that is an exchange factor change of 2.5-3.5...
With current prices, zyd VS pyer exchange are like it is intended, trit is still a bit overpriced vs zyd.. (1 zyd should give 206 pyer or 1024 trit)

Morphite on the other hand, haven't been this low since it was in Ark / bist refines..

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by GodsWork

Fri, 2 Mar 2008 04:55:00 +0000

Man T2 producers are making too mutch money to begin with so this is only taking away that fat wallet from them. Now most t2 producers can get a chance to make the money the hard way like all the rest of us do. Ether by mining hour after boring hour or going out there and getting blown to bits. Get over it kids and stop crying.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Vincent Almasy

Fri, 2 Mar 2008 02:15:00 +0000

The possibility of a artificial price ceiling in EVE is wrong, I would say have CCP to release BPOs of all NPC sold items. This is not a demand but just stating something to be fair or have a self adjusting system that at the end of a day during down time adjust the price of the modules sold by NPCs by: Mineral-1 amount times average price of mineral-1 on player market. So the prices of NPC goods flexuate as the price of minerals and player goods flex.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Thu, 1 Mar 2008 20:57:00 +0000

Edited by: Ramblin Man on 01/03/2007 20:54:32

Originally by: Pwett
I know it's only a matter of percentages, but I do mine more that 58 cubes of ice an hour and I don't have exhumers V yet.

Can you get me cycle times on your harvesters and relevent skills? I'd be interested in seeing where the extra is coming from.

Quote:
REGARDLESS There's theoretical math, which you are showing us, optimal m3 / hour and there's practical math. In high-sec space, unless you are in some protected high-sec bubble in the midst of low-sec, you will be very hard pressed to find pristine belts. You will also never, ever, ever find a scordite asteroid that will last for your entire mining 'op' unless you bribe Chribba for his bookmarks.

Given, but considering that the price is still way below Veldspar profits, we're talking about stripping entire belts here... not just select ores.

Quote:
I am well aware of NPC reprocessing as a profit-making enterprise, those who are in the know are well aware of the tritanium market, however if you go and do the research for the other goods, you would be surprised that even the best sources of other items are so expensive that the current mineral prices would practically need to triple before you could even break even on them. Even with the Trit spigot, tell me why moving averages of Trit are above, and have been aboce, the "reprocess" point of the NPC supply? Theoretically, if you account for the other, albeit minor, minerals in that item then actual "reprocess" value of trit is at the 2.36-ish mark.

Yeah, I'm not very handy with databases, so I haven't done a comprehensive search for the items. As for why the price is above the 'limit', it's simple -- not everyone reprocesses and/or is willing to move the minerals for no profit. The fact of the matter is, though, that 2.6 or 2.75 or whatever the trit market has stabilized at is still an artificial ceiling. Well, unless people felt the sudden, urgent, honest need for 5,000+ coupling arrays in the past week.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Pwett

Thu, 1 Mar 2008 17:32:00 +0000

I know it's only a matter of percentages, but I do mine more that 58 cubes of ice an hour and I don't have exhumers V yet. REGARDLESS There's theoretical math, which you are showing us, optimal m3 / hour and there's practical math. In high-sec space, unless you are in some protected high-sec bubble in the midst of low-sec, you will be very hard pressed to find pristine belts. You will also never, ever, ever find a scordite asteroid that will last for your entire mining 'op' unless you bribe Chribba for his bookmarks. Lots of people tend to ignore the bonuses to ice mining - a) long-term consistant contracts b)inexhaustable asteroids.

I am well aware of NPC reprocessing as a profit-making enterprise, those who are in the know are well aware of the tritanium market, however if you go and do the research for the other goods, you would be surprised that even the best sources of other items are so expensive that the current mineral prices would practically need to triple before you could even break even on them. Even with the Trit spigot, tell me why moving averages of Trit are above, and have been aboce, the "reprocess" point of the NPC supply? Theoretically, if you account for the other, albeit minor, minerals in that item then actual "reprocess" value of trit is at the 2.36-ish mark.

And for people that want to know what it is, don't ask here, just do the research yourself.
_______________
Pwett
CEO and Founder
[QTC]QUANT & [QTC] Industries

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ashraaf

Thu, 1 Mar 2008 11:17:00 +0000

It's just market adjustment
Mine Ice when ice worth it, minerals when market dictate it.
Some difference with ice mining is just that you have long cycle, so you can prepare meal, go pub drink a beer on every cycle... Mining ice is a semi afk activity, or a corp one night work but not a regular activity for a player (third account maybe)
With minerals, mining drones work, not with ice giving you a little (or big) boost for money. And if you really know how to be efficient, problem about popping roids, search roid, mining point isn't really a problem
There's lot of player who mine ice, but atm surely they keep it for themself. There's more and more POS around the space, requesting more Isotopes
Price will go up, and stabilize

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Thu, 1 Mar 2008 10:57:00 +0000

Edited by: Ramblin Man on 01/03/2007 11:05:07

Originally by: Lucio
Market prices in Eve are only ever *indirectly* influenced by CCP's action. It's one of the areas of the game where control of things like prices sits firmly in the hands of the players.

Some people don't seem to realize the process I was referring to here, so I'll clarify.

Massive NPC sell orders at de facto static prices

These goods are reprocessable

Therefore, they spout a nearly infinite supply of minerals at Price - Reprocess_Cost

Quote:
If ice prices in your particular buying area are spiking, consider things like whether a new corp has moved into the area, perhaps someone is out to "get" you and is deliberately outbidding your ice buy prices, perhaps you're too dominant and the local ice miners are leaving the area.

These comments are based on floating from Jita to Ours to Rens to Amarr, and all the lovely, out-of-the-way systems inbetween. I actually won't personally be affected by these changes for somewhere around one or two months, as I moved horizontally into fuel trading specifically so I'd have a hedge against rapidly shifting costs. This stated in order to dissuade from the idea that I'm only posting because of my own lost profits.

------------------------------------------

Originally by: Qual
Originally by: Ramblin Man
Then decouple the mineral markets from price controls. You should, in theory, be pushing for that to happen, no?
The only thing NPC's should supply is unrefinable stuff, yes. (That is trade goods and have civilian modules changed to be unrefinable.)

It'd certainly make an interesting experiment. I've got a feeling that it'd turn out badly when CCP decides to overhaul mining/production with a patch and doesn't quite run all the numbers.

Then again, I suppose I could actually measure the current impact of price controls by just checking purchased refinables. On the to-do list for after the server pops back up.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Qual

Thu, 1 Mar 2008 08:42:00 +0000

Originally by: Ramblin Man
Then decouple the mineral markets from price controls. You should, in theory, be pushing for that to happen, no?

The only thing NPC's should supply is unrefinable stuff, yes. (That is trade goods and have civilian modules changed to be unrefinable.)

"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Lucio

Thu, 1 Mar 2008 07:50:00 +0000

Market prices in Eve are only ever *indirectly* influenced by CCP's action. It's one of the areas of the game where control of things like prices sits firmly in the hands of the players.

If ice prices in your particular buying area are spiking, consider things like whether a new corp has moved into the area, perhaps someone is out to "get" you and is deliberately outbidding your ice buy prices, perhaps you're too dominant and the local ice miners are leaving the area.

There's hundreds of reasons why this could be happening, but one thing you can be sure of, CCP can't fix it :)
************************************************

Wohoo! No more negative sec status. It's a shame it took me TWO YEARS of Carebearing to get rid of a lousy -1.2

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Vincent Almasy

Thu, 1 Mar 2008 04:18:00 +0000

I think you are missing one key detail.. CCP does not put a price cap on anything, the players do. It is all supply and demand for these fully accesible resources.

CCP does not need to get it's hands dirty into this because, there is no hack, there is no error, there is no bug. All this shows is a resource that players don't see as very valuable.

-Lets not pick ice but lets say... people stop mining for zydrine or maga, because empire ore now makes more money from a 'shortage' so they leave and mine empire ore and makes lots of money and just use the supply of mega and zydrine that are in the market be not adding to them.
-What happens is with fewer and fewer miners mining it it become now a shortage for mega and zybrine(go figure). Now from your current argument, you would say: "CCP needs to boost low sec ore to make it at least as attractive as spamming Omber / Kernite."
-The error in this though is simple, it's player made and shall be player corrected. From the shortage prices rise and rise from people who have this now 'rare mineral' will sell it only to the highest bidders. People who will not mine will buy it because they need to produce their goods or stop making that good. The price of units using that ore increases aswell.
-All of this new found hype about a money making ore peeks interests and they go and mine it to make millions of ISK. What happens, soon so many mines it, the market levels out or becomes flooded. Either chance ha the same effect, dramatic price drops.

Now seeing the new 'rare mineral' seems to be ice in a few weeks this only shows one thing, more barges are going to be sold, more ice mining lasers will be sold and ice products will rise, moon minerals for T2 production will rise, t2 goods will rise(if the price of POS fule rises enough).

The solution is to let everything set untill ice prices increase so much more miners will mine because per hr ice >= omber and the new price will stay about (omber+plag)/2

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Thu, 1 Mar 2008 02:55:00 +0000

Originally by: Pwett
Now, on another note, what market controls are we to be decoupling from? If I'm not mistaken, you're asking to have our markets controlled. Isotopes are, in EVE terms, an inexhaustable resource that can be accessed in high-sec.

Trit is de facto price capped. I'm sure Pyerite, Mex, and the rest of the gang have their own caps as well.

I'm saying that

if CCP thinks empire low-ends should have price controls

then CCP should think that ice 'low-ends' (i.e. isotopes) should have price controls

I think it's unfair to say "Look, the free market takes care of everything!" when you've got infinite amounts of trit pouring out of NPC spigots at 2.5 isk p/u. Remove those controls, let low-ends float during periods of conflict, and then you can come back and tell me "Look, the free market takes care of everything."

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Pwett

Wed, 28 Feb 2008 19:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Ramblin Man

3,600s / 317.28s * 4 blocks = 45.386 blocks/hr

... have I missed something?

Mining Foremans

However, in terms of profit over time, you need to consider that the only downtime with mining ice is in your own logistics trains. If you have someone hauling for you, then, theoretically, you can turn on your lasers when the servers power up, and that rock would still be there by the time they go down. There is no moving, or roid scanning, or empty cycles, or any of the hassles we associate with public belts.

Now, on another note, what market controls are we to be decoupling from? If I'm not mistaken, you're asking to have our markets controlled. Isotopes are, in EVE terms, an inexhaustable resource that can be accessed in high-sec.

One other note for people who have never mined ice for profit. It's a Hell of a lot easier to find consistent long-term contract isotope buyers because they know exactly how much fuel their POS is going to consume over time. I used to be in the bulk trit supply and, sure, there were those days where I could move 1-2 billion units of tritanium, but then you could go a week without a sale because the producers sales were low.

Isotopes, on the other hand, are a consistant sale.
_______________
Pwett
CEO and Founder
[QTC]QUANT & [QTC] Industries

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Wed, 28 Feb 2008 17:20:00 +0000

Originally by: Qual
Originally by: Ramblin Man

That's not my issue with this scenario. My issue is that, due to the lack of a robust isotopes / ice mining market -- the direct result of CCP's balancing of ice mining vs. regular mining -- T2 component producers are going to have to reprice every time there's a large conflict over territory.

There's a term for that in economic texts -- menu costs -- which is not a particularly positive thing. It leads to a market which is out of sync with the current state of supply and demand, which leads to incorrect information being communicated to buyers and sellers, which leads to macroscopic market instabilities in a pond as small as EVE's.

In short, CCP is creating a dysfunctional market that's going to stagger around like a zombie with one leg chewed off, for a month, every time someone ****es on someone else's patch of 0.0. I don't consider that to be a particularly good thing.

... rebuttal?
The point is that EVE indeed IS a small pond, and when all of 0.0 goes to war, everything SHOULD be up in the air. Compare it to our world where even, comparatively seen, small events can upset the whole economic balance for years. While that might be inconvinient for the industy, thats how it works. But the smart buisnessman learns how to navigate this market and predict it. THats why in eve, much like the real world, the huge economic players can turn this into a profit for them usually at the cost of the inexperinced small time investor/worker.

Its harsh. Its eve.

Then decouple the mineral markets from price controls. You should, in theory, be pushing for that to happen, no?

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Qual

Wed, 28 Feb 2008 11:24:00 +0000

Originally by: Ramblin Man

That's not my issue with this scenario. My issue is that, due to the lack of a robust isotopes / ice mining market -- the direct result of CCP's balancing of ice mining vs. regular mining -- T2 component producers are going to have to reprice every time there's a large conflict over territory.

There's a term for that in economic texts -- menu costs -- which is not a particularly positive thing. It leads to a market which is out of sync with the current state of supply and demand, which leads to incorrect information being communicated to buyers and sellers, which leads to macroscopic market instabilities in a pond as small as EVE's.

In short, CCP is creating a dysfunctional market that's going to stagger around like a zombie with one leg chewed off, for a month, every time someone ****es on someone else's patch of 0.0. I don't consider that to be a particularly good thing.

... rebuttal?

The point is that EVE indeed IS a small pond, and when all of 0.0 goes to war, everything SHOULD be up in the air. Compare it to our world where even, comparatively seen, small events can upset the whole economic balance for years. While that might be inconvinient for the industy, thats how it works. But the smart buisnessman learns how to navigate this market and predict it. THats why in eve, much like the real world, the huge economic players can turn this into a profit for them usually at the cost of the inexperinced small time investor/worker.

Its harsh. Its eve.

"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Wed, 28 Feb 2008 05:55:00 +0000

Originally by: Sarah White
Originally by: Ramblin Man

Exhumer 5, Mackinaw
(although in truth probably being overgenerous -- a Covetor:Mackinaw comparison isn't exactly far)
44 ice units/hr (total, counting both lasers)
x300 isotopes/ice block = 13,200 isotopes/hr (empire)
7.458M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 565 isk per isotope (Scord equiv)
4.62M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 350 isk per isotope (Veld equiv)

I don't really know where you do get those figures. But basicly I get 4 Units of ICE in little bit less then 3 min with the Mackinaw. That is 80 ICE per hour. So that is almost double the profit. So I don't really see the problem you describe, but I might have missed something.

I got those figures from Halada's mining guide and rechecked the math, which works.

500s (Ice Harvester II Duration)
* 1.25 (Mackinaw Duration Penalty)
* 0.75 (Exhumers V = 25% reduction in duration)
* 0.75 (Ice Mining V = 25% reduction in duration)
* 0.952 (2x Ice Harvester Upgrades = 2x 5% reduction in duration)
= 317.28s per cycle
= 317.28s per 4 blocks of ice (2 blocks per IH, 2x IH)

3,600s / 317.28s * 4 blocks = 45.386 blocks/hr

... have I missed something?

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Praenor

Wed, 28 Feb 2008 04:31:00 +0000

Edited by: Praenor on 28/02/2007 04:27:41
You need to increase the sale prices of your T2 components. If you can't sell and are building up inventory, then you need to slow production and shut down stations.

This is basic economics, and real-world companies deal with these issues constantly.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Vincent Almasy

Wed, 28 Feb 2008 03:22:00 +0000

CCP does not need to mess with a aspect of the player market. Think of ice as Noc, there is some in empire but there is alot of deeper space. Once there is a shortage of something the prices spikes like Noc did to more then 500isk a unit I saw at times more people mined for noc as it made the most money.

More money more miners, untill most of it is mined out, i think ice fields germinate once a month or something like that so more people will look for lowsed or 0.0 ice to sell at higher prices.

The price will become soon too high for people to want to buy it and shut down POSs. From so much now extra supply less buyers are in the market making the sellers lower the price to sell more then the next miner. The price will lower to a balance of supply and demand, a few more miners a few less.

[Note]POS war = more demand, meaning shortage. shortage = price spike. Solution more people mine ice make a killing in ISK.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by ViolenTUK

Wed, 28 Feb 2008 02:06:00 +0000

I still smile at miners not including the loss of their ships whilst ice mining. I have seen miners boast over a 70 mil yeild after losing 600 mil in ice mining barges in 0.4 space. I would be surprised if anyone here could expect that type of loss whilst mining veldspar in 1.0 space. Very surprised indeed.
www.eve-players.com

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Effei Gloom

Wed, 28 Feb 2008 02:06:00 +0000

Originally by: Pwett
Edited by: Pwett on 27/02/2007 19:24:56
Edited by: Pwett on 27/02/2007 19:22:34
Maybe I'm the only one seeing it, but I see two arguments in this thread:

a) Isotopes are getting too expensive for non-aligned T2 producers / POS managers / etc.
b) Ice is not worth mining.

Maybe I believe in the free market and that's bad, but shouldn't a) solve b). We're still in a transitionary phase right now after the latest market shift, but if you have the refining skills, then the per/can value of standard ice is:

Glacial Mass $3,534,992.64
hydrogen isotopes 8,250
heavy water 1,375
liquid ozone 688
strontium clathrates 28

and of your best 0.7+ ore:

Scordite $3,242,444.79
tritanium 458,609
pyerite 229,029

Now, the three questions that you need to ask yourself is
a) how fast can I mine - for example, my hulk can fill a can in 11 minutes whereas my mack takes 25
b) how many cans of ore can you expect to find in a belt. - for example, the biggest of big scordite asteroids that I ever found in highsec were a bit less than a full-can of ore (and I had a system to myself). And there were never really all that many asteroids to begin with. It was easy enough to deplete an entire 8 belt system of scordite in a day.
c) Completely ignoring the time it takes to find full belts worth of scordite, or whatever the flavor of the month is, how much longer does it take you to get a full mining setup for X ore (skill training time (refining / reff eff x, ore IV, drone interfacing IV, mining drone V, and isk generation time (+/-600 mil to afford the hulk + 3 MDCM 2's) compared to a mackinaw (Ice harvesting V, Ice processing 1, and +/-100 mil for ship + strips)?

As more empire miners (b) realize that it might actually be more profitable to mine ice than their normal high-sec belts then prices for (a) will stop rising. Supply will increase to meet demand, it just takes time.

P.S. Numbers are from my index. 30-day, I do believe.

all can see, the market is allready adjusted,

ice is more expensive, because its boring to mine,

fuel supply will adjust itself again if there are spikes, though it takes time

Want to buy skills!

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Raskil

Wed, 28 Feb 2008 01:50:00 +0000

The market will reach equilibrium. As POS warfare continues, the demand for Ice Products will go up. The key is buy orders for the consumers so that the producers (miners) realize that it will be more profitable to mine ice.

At this point, X miners will move to the ice fields to equalize demand. The problem with this is that demand and supply will meet and equalize at such a point where the price is STILL to high to run POS Operations for what you get out of them. For large alliances in a war situation setting up territorial POS and deathstars, this usually is not an issue. But for industrial corps that are keeping track of their bottom line this will spell death.

The problem again is that demand and supply are meeting at the wrong location. I am to many years out of economics to know the answer for how to fix this. Perhaps increasing the yield of the ice, or decreasing the fuel usage of the POS will fix this. Perhaps even volume. I, as a POS operator, would love to stuff 40 days of fuel in my POS. Not quite sure though. EVE needs an on staff Economist.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Devian 666

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 23:22:00 +0000

Your numbers look good and serious miners will have to consider this. One of the things that takes away from ice mining though is the number of miners mining for their own ship construction. Besides that ice mining is slow and tends to drive people to alcoholism. So the transition to ice mining will probably be slow.
Cool an orange sig

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Tramp Oline

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 23:13:00 +0000

It's usually more profitable to mine ice than normal ore, but most people don't understand that. All the pretty calculations above don't take into account the time wasted moving from rock to rock, belt to belt, and the time wasted when your rock pops.

You may fall asleep mining ice, but it's a consistant income. I will say that it is definately harder to sell the ice materials though.

The one time that I will mine regular ore is if I find an exploration belt. Those rocks are big and fat and are worth the time to mine. Of course you have to caculate the hour or two that it took you to probe the belt into your profit per hour calculations.

Where are the Ice Mining Drone II's????

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Pwett

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 19:23:00 +0000

Edited by: Pwett on 27/02/2007 19:22:34
Maybe I'm the only one seeing it, but I see two arguments in this thread:

a) Isotopes are getting too expensive for non-aligned T2 producers / POS managers / etc.
b) Ice is not worth mining.

Maybe I believe in the free market and that's bad, but shouldn't a) solve b). We're still in a transitionary phase right now after the latest market shift, but if you have the refining skills, then the per/can value of standard ice is:


 Glacial Mass $3,534,992.64
 hydrogen isotopes 8,250
 heavy water 1,375
 liquid ozone 688
 strontium clathrates 28

and of your best 0.7+ ore:


 Scordite $3,242,444.79
 tritanium 458,609
 pyerite 229,029

Now, the three questions that you need to ask yourself is
a) how fast can I mine - for example, my hulk can fill a can in 11 minutes whereas my mack takes 25
b) how many cans of ore can you expect to find in a belt. - for example, the biggest of big scordite asteroids that I ever found in highsec were a bit less than a full-can of ore (and I had a system to myself). And there were never really all that many asteroids to begin with. It was easy enough to deplete an entire 8 belt system of scordite in a day.
c) Completely ignoring the time it takes to find full belts worth of scordite, or whatever the flavor of the month is, how much longer does it take you to get a full mining setup for X ore (skill training time (refining / reff eff x, ore IV, drone interfacing IV, mining drone V, and isk generation time (+/-600 mil to afford the hulk + 4 MDCM 2's) compared to a mackinaw (Ice harvesting V, Ice processing 1, and +/-100 mil for ship + strips)?

As more empire miners (b) realize that it might actually be more profitable to mine ice than their normal high-sec belts then prices for (a) will stop rising. Supply will increase to meet demand, it just takes time.

P.S. Numbers are from my index. 30-day, I do believe.
_______________
Pwett
CEO and Founder
[QTC]QUANT & [QTC] Industries

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Jelanen Farshot

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 16:07:00 +0000

After reading this thread all I can think of is Rule #34. I honestly don't see where the problem is....other than I'm not positioned properly to take advantage of the profit potential of this war. Oh well, maybe next time around.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Lin Dze

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 15:26:00 +0000

Originally by: Pa'ak Hagen
I dont know about the rest of you, but im trying not cry - just knowing that mineral / ore prices is hurting a T2 producers income makes me want to organize a protest outside CPP's offices......

The sarcasm is strong in this one!

And I agree.. It's truely horrible!

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Pa'ak Hagen

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 15:11:00 +0000

I dont know about the rest of you, but im trying not cry - just knowing that mineral / ore prices is hurting a T2 producers income makes me want to organize a protest outside CPP's offices......

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Sarah White

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 15:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Ramblin Man

Exhumer 5, Mackinaw
(although in truth probably being overgenerous -- a Covetor:Mackinaw comparison isn't exactly far)
44 ice units/hr (total, counting both lasers)
x300 isotopes/ice block = 13,200 isotopes/hr (empire)
7.458M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 565 isk per isotope (Scord equiv)
4.62M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 350 isk per isotope (Veld equiv)

I don't really know where you do get those figures. But basicly I get 4 Units of ICE in little bit less then 3 min with the Mackinaw. That is 80 ICE per hour. So that is almost double the profit. So I don't really see the problem you describe, but I might have missed something.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by ViolenTUK

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 12:58:00 +0000

Not many are interested in mining ice. You dont get a good yield and need a well equiped ship. It is very quick and easy to mine veldspar or scordite. Yes the prices for pos fuel is too high.
www.eve-players.com

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Adunh Slavy

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 10:22:00 +0000

Originally by: Saldun Zexu
Originally by: Danii

The price of Strontium Clathrates is going through the roof as well. Is it possible to mine that in Empire space?

It's possible but you'll get 1 unit per cycle

You can find glare crust in low sec, 25 stron, OZ and HW, no isotopes.
-AS

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Belloc Slunv

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 10:20:00 +0000

Originally by: Ta chaina
I've said it before and Ill say it again we need more kinds of ice, ice that is just like the other roids in empire. One that gives more of one kind of min then the other. Right now there is only the faction ice in a given area of space thats fine but what we need is more kinds of empire ice.

One kind that gives more heavywater one that gives more Isotopes and so on. We dont need a one of a kind ice field where the only ice you mine gives everything and you have no choice but to mine that,

There are already different types of ice like that. The only problem is that you have to be in 0.0 to get access to them.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Saldun Zexu

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 10:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Danii

The price of Strontium Clathrates is going through the roof as well. Is it possible to mine that in Empire space?

It's possible but you'll get 1 unit per cycle

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Danii

Tue, 27 Feb 2008 09:16:00 +0000

The price of Strontium Clathrates is going through the roof as well. Is it possible to mine that in Empire space?

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ta chaina

Mon, 26 Feb 2008 23:50:00 +0000

I've said it before and Ill say it again we need more kinds of ice, ice that is just like the other roids in empire. One that gives more of one kind of min then the other. Right now there is only the faction ice in a given area of space thats fine but what we need is more kinds of empire ice.

One kind that gives more heavywater one that gives more Isotopes and so on. We dont need a one of a kind ice field where the only ice you mine gives everything and you have no choice but to mine that,

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Mon, 26 Feb 2008 23:38:00 +0000

Edited by: Ramblin Man on 26/02/2007 23:39:22

Originally by: Reverend Revelator
Errrr.... if isotope prices are rising... then that will make ice mining more profitable... which means more people will... mine ice?

Why would CCP do anything, this will regulate itself pretty much no?

In short, no.

Quick and dirty math, cribbed from Halada (and a mining spreadsheet).
For reference: Covetor mining empire ores (Scord @ 113 isk/m3, Veld @ 70)

1,100 m3 per T2 Strip w/ T1 crystal

x3 Strip Miners = 3,300 m3

x20 cycles/hr = 66,000 m3/hr

x113 isk/m3 Scordite = 7.458M/hr

x70 isk/m3 Veldspar = 4.62M/hr

Or, with ice mining normalized against them:
Exhumer 5, Mackinaw

44 ice units/hr (total, counting both lasers)

x300 isotopes/ice block = 13,200 isotopes/hr (empire)

7.458M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 565 isk per isotope (Scord equiv)

4.62M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 350 isk per isotope (Veld equiv)

So yes, using current prices (and assuming pyerite does not go up any farther), isotopes will regulate themselves at somewhere between their current price and 161% of their current price.

(Flubbed the math the first time... to be edited)

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Devian 666

Mon, 26 Feb 2008 23:09:00 +0000

I don't see how this will affect t2 production. The price of t2 will go up along with all other ships and modules. Current demands on the economy are causing inflation and that's it.
Cool an orange sig

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ezra

Mon, 26 Feb 2008 22:49:00 +0000

Until there's no scordite to mine.

There are ice fields with huge chunks in 0.9 where one can mine with zero risk and zero attempt to tank, almost never switching targets.

Scordite, on the other hand, is mined out even in 0.5 systems.
------------
Ezra Cornell

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by TheDisruptor1

Mon, 26 Feb 2008 22:13:00 +0000

Yea, but so are empire low ends. So everyone who would have ice mined is going to mine scordite.

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Reverend Revelator

Mon, 26 Feb 2008 22:02:00 +0000

Errrr.... if isotope prices are rising... then that will make ice mining more profitable... which means more people will... mine ice?

Why would CCP do anything, this will regulate itself pretty much no?

-- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love --

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP - by Ramblin Man

Mon, 26 Feb 2008 21:44:00 +0000

Edited by: Ramblin Man on 26/02/2007 21:42:11

With the recent wars going on in 0.0 (I'm assuming that they're the culprit), isotope prices in empire are spiking. Now, this isn't particularly here or there for 0.0 operations -- certainly, they'll be spending more money fueling POS-spammed systems, but they're spending that money for territory, something less accountable than a simple profit.

However, the problem is that empire-based (read: low-sec) heavy industrial POSs also require those isotopes (and liquid ozone). As a result, their accounting is being thrown out of whack and the T2 supply chain disrupted because of events occurring in an entirely different sector of the game (nor one which is particularly connected).

The problem, as I see it, is that Ice Mining simply isn't worth it in terms of ISK/hr. For proof, see Halada's Mining Guide (page 34 and on). Particularly with empire low-ends spiking, there is no valid reason to ice mine when you could be making 2x or more the ISK mining scordite. As a result, no one ice mines. As a result, there's an isotope market almost wholly supplied by a few macroers (or very, very dedicated ice miners).

As a result of that, the market is very vulnerable to disruptions by demand spikes (read: large 0.0 conflicts), ultimately resulting in ludicrous and untenable prices for running a low-sec T2 comp production POS.

CCP needs to boost ice mining to make it at least as attractive as spamming Omber / Kernite.

* I chose one of the (formerly) higher low-ends because ice mining offers less variety than ore mining, although specialization is still required. As a result, there must be a slight increase in the incentive to encourage people to specialize in a less adaptable discipline.