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An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Breha Organa

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:01:00 +0000

Originally by: Stratten
I stated before, I dont think bacon itself really is much of an issue, the issue lies in the use of the data from the log files. You can't compare evemon, eft, or even teamspeak to this situation since they do not use the log files which contain the vast amounts of real-time in-game information. The issue of local does not apply either since it is a function of the game, not a manipulation of the data stream as bacon is.

Thank-you Stratten and Avon for a clear description of BACON and the underlying code. My campaign website states my background and my Computer Science expertise. Therefore, this issue does cause concern for me. The manipulation of data that ought to be encrypted somehow or at the very least inaccessible to the player *is* in my opinion something for which there is no middle ground.

Assuming that the BACON software does in fact access these log files, then it should be banned. Great job for getting the information here, and clearly stating the problem.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Max Torps

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Stratten

Do you as a candidate approve of the use of log file software to the game?

My position has not altered on this. I made a post yesterday morning regarding it here if you'd like to read it.

Hat's off to Gunfleet for being as honest and as open as the day is long. I'm almost certain they didn't mean for this to blow up into an issue of such epic proportions.

To summarise though. Bacon is the tip of the iceberg. It's open source and given the fact that a similar application was available for some time, coding ability is not a problem for elements of the Eve community. This is now a handy framework for other log parsers to be created from.

It is only a matter of time before other applications based on reading the log files will be made available. There are already test versions being made that automatically quit the game when hostiles enter local. It's not a huge stretch to think that other functions can be written based on parsing log files.

Just because it is possible to do something that doesn't technically break the rules doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do.

My opinion is that CCP needs to either encrypt the logserver output via key pairing, restrict output to harmless information or use another solution entirely to render log readers unusable.

EvE blogspace, free! Max Torps CSM Candidate

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Space Explorer

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:52:00 +0000

It's time for Punkbuster fps style in Eve.

http://www.evenbalance.com/index.php

o/

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Stratten

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:52:00 +0000

I stated before, I dont think bacon itself really is much of an issue, the issue lies in the use of the data from the log files. You can't compare evemon, eft, or even teamspeak to this situation since they do not use the log files which contain the vast amounts of real-time in-game information. The issue of local does not apply either since it is a function of the game, not a manipulation of the data stream as bacon is.

Originally by: fuze

Do you have any examples? It might be OT but on the other hand knowing more about this will contribute to this discussion.

This is one example and a very important one to consider. This is only one facet of the data in those logs. The concerns I have are the possibilities that may already be in place, or could be abused by such software.

Originally by: Avon

In a previous post I mentioned that I was aware of at least one in-depth use of log server monitoring.
Let me go in to a little more detail before you all write BACON off as unimportant.
The system in question parsed gamelogs, and added the entries to a database. The logs were generated by no-skill alts, just sitting in certain systems, but it could have been expanded to use logs from every player in an alliance.
It generated a list of players, their corps and alliances, their movements everything you could want. It also plotted it all nicely on maps on a web-page, so you could see who was where, where they had been, how many, what direction, everything.
You could search the database for statistics on anyone who had been logged.

As you can see these applications have been experimented with already, and no-one seems to want to answer what exactly the possibilities are. Naturally if there is an edge, those that have it wont give it up. Instead we have the debate focus spreading into the "what about eft, what about local, what about teamspeak" which are completely seperate from the issue.

Again, to focus on the topic here I'm curious if the candidates had this question presented differently how they would answer.

Do you as a candidate approve of the use of log file software to the game?

Think hard though because in my opinion if you say yes, you approve all of and including, the worst possible software outcomes with the answer. (which are probably already in place and unknown to most, or yet to be designed with unbalancing intentions in mind. Can be very very bad for the game overall, if you think of the possibilities this type of data mining allows)

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Breha Organa

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 05:08:00 +0000

I've been reading all the posts to this topic with interest... and if I understand people correctly, we are trying to determine if software such as BACON and others are merely a tactic or an exploit. Ventrilo/TS software provides people with a tactical advantage... but is not something that inhibits the gameplay of others.
There is nothing inherently wrong with trying to gain a tactical advantage in a game. When that attempt deliberately interferes with the opponents' ability to act/react in normal game play... then it is an exploit and should be stopped or added to the EULA as a prohibited activity.
IMHO - candidate for CSM

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by 1717

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:16:00 +0000

While reading through this thread, I thought to myself that EFT was nothing like BACON, and that CCP has been foolish for not immedietly declaring it illegal and banning it from the game. I disagreed with Goumindong's opinion, but tried to see his side of things and have come to the conclusion that they can be comparable.

Bacon allows players to be lazy. It allows them to devote less attention to the game while playing and keeping themselves as safe as they would normally be while watching local. I'm against this. It gives players a meta-gaming advantage that ultimately makes the game less interesting (in my opinion.)

EFT, while not directly interacting with the game in real time, gives a similar advantage to the lazy. Using EFT, even the lazy can put together great ship fits with little effort (no, the program can't tell you what will actually happen when you use the ship in combat but it gives you a pretty decent idea of what a ship's general capabilities are.) Without this tool, one would have to do quite a bit of homework/paperwork and testing to see just how effective a given ship build would be. How many do you think would want to do such work/ressearch to get an optimal fit? I would guess not as many that use EFT, at least. This means less people would be flying around with ship setups as good as those willing to manually hammer out nice fits.

My point is that while Bacon does nothing (again, in my opinion) but give players a meta-gaming advantage, EFT too gives many players something that they might not have taken advantage of on their own. This is comparable to the Bacon monitoring local like a machine arguement. I don't think they're on the same level, but there's something to be said for 3rd party tools being used to optimize one's game time and cutting out effort normally only emlpoyed by few gamers.

I think CSM Candidates should take things like this into consideration when debating issues involving tools like Bacon, as it's not a farcy from what's currently available.
eve-online.com

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Cissnei

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:34:00 +0000

Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo
Erm...you are like 3 months old,your ceo is about the same,your corp has 18 members and is recruiting 8 hour old newbies.No offence but you look like a potential 'victim' of everything you are complaining about to me.
[/quote

my main was made in june 2005. the newbie that was popped was someones alt. you should read entire sentences

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Doonoo Boonoo

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 19:03:00 +0000

Originally by: Cissnei
Edited by: Cissnei on 21/04/2008 14:48:06

2) my definition of 'griefer' are a) corps that purposefully prey on newbie corps, b) people that drop cans labelled 'free isk' in front of stations in 1.0 space outside of the listed systems this is not allowed - which is r-tarded, because cash for capsuleers isnt done at any of those systems, c) the guy that suicide ganked a corp members shuttle in amarr newbie space last night - a half hour old char in the newbie frigate

a)Non applicable.Part of the game as stipulated by CCP.

b)Already classed as 'griefing' and not tolerated.

c)1 person ganks a 1 day old character.Obviously whoever did it was being an arse hat but hardly an epidemic.Newbie lost a shuttle btw.

Originally by: Cissnei

there are a LOT more examples of griefing, and even more examples of out little true repercussions they have to endure for such asshattery.

Like what?Bearing in mind your earlier 'non applicable' definitions of 'griefing'.Do you have any facts or figures that this is rampant in Eve or are you merely spreading your own brand of paranoia and hysteria.

Originally by: Cissnei

4) war decs are too cheap at 2m a week. corps that want to declare war on another should have the money to maintain it. this would do two real things - firstly it would be somewhat of a discouragement from high sec monkey corps who only prey on mining/industrial corps they see as easy targets as it simply wont be profitable enough if they all decide to leave the corp or hole up in the station (hence why i recommended the one week between player corp joining to prevent other forms of exploiting this method) and secondly, those that war dec'd would obviously be well off to be able to maintain it and they would be taken more seriously than they are now. 500m isnt much. once yo uget to l4 missions you can do that in a day of hard grinding nearly. there are a ton of posts in the newb forum saying they made 150m in a week or two weeks.

Yet again you seem to be fixated on the fact that just because you are new excludes you from a war dec.If you are in a player corp you are fair game.If you are in a player corp full of newbies then that's your fault.(And whoever made the corp in the 1st place)

Why should Empire PvP only be available to the 'well off' and rich players who can afford 500 mill for a war dec?What about the newer players who want to do this?What about the poor newbie?

Originally by: Cissnei

eve is currently plagued with - tons of small corps that change damn near hourly.

Erm...you are like 3 months old,your ceo is about the same,your corp has 18 members and is recruiting 8 hour old newbies.No offence but you look like a potential 'victim' of everything you are complaining about to me.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Tommy TenKreds

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:51:00 +0000

Originally by: Ulstan
Many people are really off base here.

Local already provides a visual cue the instant a hostile enters the system.

BACON changes that to an audio cue.

Your explanation of BACON's functionality is incomplete.

BACON filters the data provided by local, according to pre-defined criteria, presenting to the user only the data that is relevant to them, in real time.

This removes the need for the player to scan and evaluate the data for themselves, making BACON a substantial alteration to game mechanics.

"BACON: Never be surprised again"

Vigilance is the player's responsibility!

Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP!

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Erotic Irony

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:40:00 +0000

Why would I rebut what makes logical sense to me? You seem to have misunderstood what I said, that in the absence of real claims there is a chorus of "I don't like it!", hysteria and slippery slope inferences.

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Erotic Irony

Your input and mine is irrelevant, the only question is whether this is permissible not whether or not you or I like it.

Thread is about asking CSM candidates think about it (are they against it or not). Not wether it's permissible or not. Just read the thread title + OP.

I would like to read what other candidates think about this.

Do you know what a leading question is?

The OP is being blatantly pedantic and you're eating it up.
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An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Cpt Branko

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:22:00 +0000

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2008 18:25:58
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2008 18:25:26
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2008 18:24:26

Originally by: Erotic Irony
This thread just confirms how dim witted and self-absorbed the eve community is in confronting the substance of Guomindong's claims.

Stay in school.

Considering that you have not offered any rebuttals whatsoever, that comment is dim witted actually.

Originally by: Winterblink

Delaying saving the logs for five minutes would get interesting. In the meantime, all that data sits where, in memory? Sitting in a station somewhere is one thing, but how much delayed data would sit resident in say, a fleet fight of sizable proportion?

Not too much, really, most likely <10 MB max, even with something preety sizeable as 100-ish entries per second. You could make it size-bound, so that you push up to, say, 5MB of logs and then you dump it to disk (I do logging for a few things that way).

The only real disadvantage of that is that if the entire machine crashes, you lose the last 5MB worth of logs, which is admittedly a pain. Could be fixed without exposing data in plain form though, but requires some thinking about it.

Originally by: Erotic Irony

Your input and mine is irrelevant, the only question is whether this is permissible not whether or not you or I like it.

Thread is about asking CSM candidates think about it (are they against it or not). Not wether it's permissible or not. Just read the thread title + OP.

I would like to read what other candidates think about this.

Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com Saint

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Erotic Irony

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:21:00 +0000

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
Originally by: Erotic Irony
This thread just confirms how dim witted and self-absorbed the eve community is in confronting the substance of Guomindong's claims.
Stay in school.

Hello I am better than you, therefore I don't have to provide substance in my posts.

Your input and mine is irrelevant, the only question is whether this is permissible not whether or not you or I like it.

Since it is, this entire "discussion" is a troll thread plagued by ad homs and selfish partisans trying to speak with authority.
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An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Winterblink

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:58:00 +0000

Edited by: Winterblink on 21/04/2008 17:59:13

Delaying saving the logs for five minutes would get interesting. In the meantime, all that data sits where, in memory? Sitting in a station somewhere is one thing, but how much delayed data would sit resident in say, a fleet fight of sizable proportion?

Or is it just the specific bits of data related to people coming and going from system that would get delayed?

Either way, adding to the memory usage glut doesn't seem like a great idea at all.

warp drive active | nature vraie

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Goumindong

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:44:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Ulstan
Many people are really off base here.

You are missing the bigger picture.
It is the potential of the tool, rather than the tool itself.

Even the stuff that was removed from BACON before public release is enough to see why it should be stopped.

Not really, the stuff wasn't removed for the reasons you think it was. At least if i've heard right. But due to forum rules i cannot divulge that info.

Vote Goumindong for CSM

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Avon

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:40:00 +0000

Originally by: Ulstan
Many people are really off base here.

You are missing the bigger picture.
It is the potential of the tool, rather than the tool itself.

Even the stuff that was removed from BACON before public release is enough to see why it should be stopped.

Eve-Online: The Text Adventure

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Ulstan

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:37:00 +0000

Many people are really off base here.

Local already provides a visual cue the instant a hostile enters the system.

BACON changes that to an audio cue.

BFD, TBH.

The issue is that you are immediately provided the information that a hostile has entered the system in the first place. Whether that information is presented to you as a visual cue, or an audio cue or maybe your controller rumbles or the smell of baking bread wafts out of your headset is all irrelevent.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Jade Constantine

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:18:00 +0000

Cissnei

Quote:
2) my definition of 'griefer' are a) corps that purposefully prey on newbie corps, b) people that drop cans labelled 'free isk' in front of stations in 1.0 space outside of the listed systems this is not allowed - which is r-tarded, because cash for capsuleers isnt done at any of those systems, c) the guy that suicide ganked a corp members shuttle in amarr newbie space last night - a half hour old char in the newbie frigate there are a LOT more examples of griefing, and even more examples of out little true repercussions they have to endure for such asshattery. i'm not saying the game should be safe, but this is just petty trash

I'd actually agree, attacking those kind of targets and using that kind of tactic is pretty sad.

Quote:
3) telling a brand new industrial character to equip crap like cloaks is pretty sad and incredulous. they dont have those skills nor the attributes when they start. what if they are miners? what if they went with the choices that give them industry v and mining v? are they suposed to fit warp stabs and a cloak on that newbie frigate when they dont even have enough engineering and electronics skills to fit more than the civ guns? give me a break. scouts? this is a new player we are talking about. 0.0? who cares about 0.0. when you go to 0.4 and lower it's every person for themselves. i'm talking entirely about high sec only. a real new char who goes into 0.0 has ignored the very first tutorial in the game. or were you really insinuating people should put cloaks on their barges?

Ah well I misunderstood you and was talking 0.0 because thats what the local removal argument is generally aimed at. Speaking personally I think local needs to go from lowsec and 0.0 and needs to stay in hisec so we actually don't have much disagreement there it seems. All my talk of cloaks and scouts and such was with regard to survival in 0.0.

Quote:
4) war decs are too cheap at 2m a week. corps that want to declare war on another should have the money to maintain it. this would do two real things - firstly it would be somewhat of a discouragement from high sec monkey corps who only prey on mining/industrial corps they see as easy targets as it simply wont be profitable enough if they all decide to leave the corp or hole up in the station ...

My preferred solution to nonsense wardecs is actually throwing these things into the player area and making the mercenary profession more attractive and accountable + lets look at actual objectives in wars that have genuine results and impacts on the participants. If a nonsense war ends in a loss for the attacker they should pay a penalty in my view - what penalty and how to define "loss" those are questions we have to ask.

Quote:
5) your comment about my suggestion to limit when you can rejoin a player corp after leaving one is also nonsense.

We'll have to disagree on this one. I don't think its reasonable to prevent players from joining other player corps on leaving existing ones. This is a social game and its not reasonable to force people back to the npc corps rather than allowing them to transfer directly.

Quote:
on real hardcore korean mmorpg's where all they do is camp newbies in the newbie area, most of them dont let you join a guild after you leave one for quite a while. this is to prevent what eve is currently plagued with - tons of small corps that change damn near hourly.

There are other solutions - clear up old defunct corps, make inability to wardec for X period a function of "losing" wars. Enhance the reporting/oversight tools, make it easier to highlight or screen out corp hoppers in recruiting - show the performance stats of corps. Give different roles and focus for empire pvpers, transferable kill rights is a big one - let those new players sell their kill rights for big isk ... etc etc. Fight griefing with good ideas not blunt instruments.

CSM Election Manifesto 2008

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Arduron

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:18:00 +0000

Originally by: Eronysis
Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 16:46:37
Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 16:42:13
ShowEQ accessed the stack...Everquest had an open user interface written in XML, it allowed for lots and lots of alerts,timer and automations. This trend has since been inherited by almost every successful MMO save this one... I would say poor example.

I disagree on your point that the EQ situation was a bad example. Perhaps not a perfect example, but I think it adequately illustrates the idea I was suggesting:

ShowEQ did not access the stack (if you are using that term to refer to peeking at memory in the client). At least not the version I am talking about. However I do agree it used "non public" means to access the data. At the time EQ was NOT an open interface. And did not allow any extensions. ShowEQ was a linux app that ran on a separate machine which monitored network traffic passively. In order to figure out the data it needed.

At the time EQ was not an extensible interface. They added that option after the ban of ShowEQ in order to facilitate "legitimate" enhancements without the need for 3rd party apps. (and they implemented a mapping/navigation option to allow for the justifiable portion of the showeq functionality).

I agree it is not the same thing as our current situtation with bacon. But I am simply using it as an example to point out a past case where to following occurred:
- A community found the justifiable need for a new tool due to something missing from their game.
- The community developed a 3rd party tool to implement the functionality they needed
- The tool became overblown and overstepped the boundaries (in addition to offering unfair advantage over those not using it).
- The developer recognized this need, filled the need with a more regulated, and more balanced approach
- The developer banned said 3rd party tool, removing the unbalance.

That is all that I am talking about. As I said, I think there is some justifiable need for improved spatial awareness tools. Improved scanner interfaces, or simply a window that allows you to see people in the current system with filters. I don't care if it is implimented in a way that requires new skills/investments to use (in fact I encourage that method of solving this problem, as it maintains balance). But in the end, people need a method to achieve that goal. They are filling it with a 3rd party tool now, which destroys balance because those not able/willing to use said tool are now at a disadvantage. In addition it circumvents ingame mechanics for that ability.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Razin

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:13:00 +0000

Originally by: Goumindong

So you are against:

EFT in any use[This gives players an advantage in knowing just how their ship performs without testing it and manually calculating everything, it also lets them easily know what they can fly and whether or not it will fit].

Team Speak/Ventrillo[This gives players a communication advantage, is much cheaper than CCPs alternative, and you can connect to it without being in the game[or in fleet/gang/etc], which allows much more robust and fast, uninterrupted communication.]

Alliance/Corp Forums[This gives players a communication and organization advantage not to mention the advantage of a shared community identity]

EveMon[This gives players an auditory signal when their skills finish and allows for planning around various events like downtime. This decreases the amount of time that a character will spend without skills trained and will over the long run, make one character in a set of two with the same ideal build and plan better than the other.]

IRC and other Chat and Message Programs[This gives players ways to communicate with others instantly and speedily without them needing to be on the teamspeak channel.

Cell Phones[Its like chat programs except you can SMS important pilots anywhere in order to gauge participation]

All of these things are third party programs or hardware and most all of them are required to participate in the "high level game".

edit: Oh, and i forgot asset and corp API exports which are also invaluable for doing just about anything. I shouldn't need to elucidate about this.

What is the difference between these programs and BACON? Not much.

You forgot alarm clocks.
...

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Schani Kratnorr

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Erotic Irony
This thread just confirms how dim witted and self-absorbed the eve community is in confronting the substance of Guomindong's claims.
Stay in school.

Hello I am better than you, therefore I don't have to provide substance in my posts.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Erotic Irony

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:58:00 +0000

This thread just confirms how dim witted and self-absorbed the eve community is in confronting the substance of Guomindong's claims.

Stay in school.
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An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Eronysis

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:42:00 +0000

Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 16:46:37
Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 16:42:13
ShowEQ accessed the stack...Everquest had an open user interface written in XML, it allowed for lots and lots of alerts,timer and automations. This trend has since been inherited by almost every successful MMO save this one... I would say poor example.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Arduron

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:27:00 +0000

My thoughts on this whole issue are that there is obviously an underlying problem here that needs to be dealt with. This program specifically is only a bandaid solution that some have come up with for their view on the problem.

Generally speaking from one standpoint I think I agree with the general concept of the program (although specific implementation is questionable). For one, as has been already stated, large alliances are ALREADY using tools like this, and they would likely prefer if it remained their sole advantage. By opening this up to the masses, it removes that unbalance. In addition, I do agree, that making the spatial awareness tools more "accessable" is a must. They may be easy for some to master, but in the end the system favors "flying blind" (makes it easy for the morally questionable gank squads and griefers).

I think that CCP should address this on 2 angles:
- outright BAN the use of any tool which integrates with the system to deliver an advantage to one party or another through information gleaned from servers or the client. Even if that tool does not alter anything.
- Then they should find a way to improve the ingame spatial awareness tools. Provide the functionaly (at least in part) of this tool to the masses on an equal playing field. (for example replace the local window with a tool which can list players in the current system with a filter option, to be able to filter out people with a specific standing or something).

A good precident for this type of solution is back in the original EQ days, there was a tool known as ShowEQ. It tracked peoples positions in a zone, and showed realtime mapping and such. While the info it provided was far overkill, (it gave a huge advantage to those using it). The general realtime mapping function was it's main original purpose (and it was a legitmate need to be filled). SOE banned the use of ShowEQ, and banned players using it, but as a compromise they built in a realtime mapping solution for navigation into the game client itself.

So to sum up, I agree. This tool gives too much power to anyone using it. I don't feel that anyone should have the option to use an application which gives a significant advantage to them over someone who is not using the same tool.

I also agree that the tools for personal defense (and avoiding attack) are insuficient for those that need them, and something needs to be done to bolster the existing tools. I am against this tool in general, but the concept of improving people's ability to detect an incoming war target, or unfriendly is definately a good thing all around in my opinion.

I think CCP needs to look very closely at this issue, and find a longterm solution to the root cause. By finding a solution that maintains/improves balance, and inhibits the use of 3rd party tools to gain an advantage over someone else.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Schani Kratnorr

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:18:00 +0000

Edited by: Schani Kratnorr on 21/04/2008 16:18:40

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
*text snipped to conserve space*

So basically you dont have to play the game yourself any more?

That is correct my handsome friend, and to think it all started when CCP relaxed their usually tough stance on cheating.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Schani Kratnorr

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:17:00 +0000

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
*text snipped to conserve space*

So basically you dont have to play the game yourself any more?

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Schani Kratnorr

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:15:00 +0000

Introducing, DANISH BACON
Run as many clients as you need, automatically engage in mining, missions, deadspaces, production, invention, pos warfare (DANISH BACON+) and MUCH MUCH more!

The basic client is free to use for 14 days after which you can choose to volountarily continue by contributing to further development (let us worry about how you can help us).

Key features
- Automatically connect and 'Baconate' multiple clients to Tranquility
- Seamless management through web-interface
- Automated mining, PvE and PvP!*

Technical highlights
- Compatible with all major SQL-based Professional Backends for easy and secure management of account information.
- Virtual consoles can be used to connect as many accounts as needed
- Customized hardware avaiable for professional users (ask our staff)

*DANISH BACON+ users only

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Ulstan

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:44:00 +0000

In my opinion, Bacon is nothing to get worked up about - it's not providing any new informatin you wouldn't get anyway from local.

Fix local, and Bacon (presumably) goes away.

And no, 'fix local' does not simply mean 'pirates don't show up in local'. It's going to require a much more comprehensive fix and it will involve changes to the directional scanner as well.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Avon

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:10:00 +0000

Originally by: Goumindong

All in all, its not an easy choice to make regarding what should and shouldn't be allowed.

Well, exactly.
And more to the point it isn't our choice to make, but rather CCP's - and that is the crux of the issue.
If they allow open usage of client logging they effectively lose control over what it is used for.

That, basically, is why I am against BACON.
Client-side logging needs to be removed, or secured.

Eve-Online: The Text Adventure

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Avon

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:56:00 +0000

Originally by: Jager Petronovich
I find it interesting that What i said was possible and why it was bad was then echoed by Avon as something the devs created then scrapped.

Just to be clear, when I mentioned developers it was in reference to the people making the intel tool, not CCP devs.

Eve-Online: The Text Adventure

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Goumindong

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:47:00 +0000

Originally by: Segge Bolled

I'm not trying to be condescending, but surely you're aware that humankind built large engines of destruction, called "rockets". The consequences of "allowing" them not has not only cost thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives, but also played a large part in plunging us into one of the most dangerous periods of human history - the Cold War - where we came rather close to snuffing ourselves out in a very messy fashion.

[...]

The difference is that this is a game and in games we have a central authority to set the rules that is also not playing the game. We can then make educated guesses about what will change the game in various ways and direct the game towards a specific intended balance.

This is not true in the real world, and is the fundamental difference that makes this discussion relevant. Now where the line should be drawn as Avon points out, is something worth discussing.

I am hesitant to say that more information for alliances would be a bad thing. More info, and advanced info, can be a good substitute for immediate info. And a lack of immediate info makes decision making hard where decision making is the name of the game. However, if we apply some basic sociology regarding decision making we might find that the lack of good information freezes people against acting in the same way a large number of choices can. And of course taking that into account we might want to give players loads of information about everything. And, it looks like, from the early ambulation data we've been given that CCP is working on alliance wide reporting tools for friendlies and enemies. Which is just what programs like these allow.

But more info also benefits larger alliances disproportionately, since the value of information in a network is relative to its size and large alliances will have the largest reporting base in terms of space and size as well as the resources to enact other measures to extend that reporting base. And more things which advantage large alliances probably aren't necessary when more players is pretty much always better than fewer and its nearly impossible to reverse this axiom.

Of course, the other things that more information from specific systems allows is knowing just what your opponent knows which can allow you to "play" information to your advantage.

All in all, its not an easy choice to make regarding what should and shouldn't be allowed.

Vote Goumindong for CSM

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Phelan Driscoll

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Eronysis
Edited by: Eronysis on 20/04/2008 21:31:36
Regarding the above goon comment...Though it is rude to quote myself. I repeat.

Originally by: Eronysis
Edited by: Eronysis on 20/04/2008 07:33:04
Originally by: Eronysis
Originally by: motomysz
I agree. Anti-BACON candidate gets my vote.
Ironic

If case you have as much trouble following links as reading a description or actually using a product before judging it.
I give you another preexisting tool...
Beetracker

What is being passed off here is large alliances keeping the advantage of having such tools private and quasi secret. BACON brings them to the masses, in an OPEN SOURCE format. Tools of this nature are being used against thousands of players BY people posting BAN BACON messages in this very thread and in others. Period.

Oh come on, I bet you're using beetracker right now. Everybody already does.

Also: MerchI stop posting
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An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Cissnei

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:44:00 +0000

Edited by: Cissnei on 21/04/2008 14:48:06

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Well I'm campaigning for CSM election so I'm going to address your concerns and ideas below:

in your attempt at politic, you've only hurt your case

1) you say that the non payout of insurance would penalize those that use smartbombs to help out a corp member, etc. i say to you - oh well. the suicide gankers whinge and like to point out that eve is a harsh place. if someone is paying that little attention to use a smartbomb in empire and click ok after the warning pops up - then they lose. it will be a learning experience for them

2) my definition of 'griefer' are a) corps that purposefully prey on newbie corps, b) people that drop cans labelled 'free isk' in front of stations in 1.0 space outside of the listed systems this is not allowed - which is r-tarded, because cash for capsuleers isnt done at any of those systems, c) the guy that suicide ganked a corp members shuttle in amarr newbie space last night - a half hour old char in the newbie frigate

there are a LOT more examples of griefing, and even more examples of out little true repercussions they have to endure for such asshattery. i'm not saying the game should be safe, but this is just petty trash

3) telling a brand new industrial character to equip crap like cloaks is pretty sad and incredulous. they dont have those skills nor the attributes when they start. what if they are miners? what if they went with the choices that give them industry v and mining v? are they suposed to fit warp stabs and a cloak on that newbie frigate when they dont even have enough engineering and electronics skills to fit more than the civ guns? give me a break. and THESE are the very players that are preyed upon the most. scouts? this is a new player we are talking about. 0.0? who cares about 0.0. when you go to 0.4 and lower it's every person for themselves. i'm talking entirely about high sec only. a real new char who goes into 0.0 has ignored the very first tutorial in the game. or were you really insinuating people should put cloaks on their barges?

4) war decs are too cheap at 2m a week. corps that want to declare war on another should have the money to maintain it. this would do two real things - firstly it would be somewhat of a discouragement from high sec monkey corps who only prey on mining/industrial corps they see as easy targets as it simply wont be profitable enough if they all decide to leave the corp or hole up in the station (hence why i recommended the one week between player corp joining to prevent other forms of exploiting this method) and secondly, those that war dec'd would obviously be well off to be able to maintain it and they would be taken more seriously than they are now. 500m isnt much. once yo uget to l4 missions you can do that in a day of hard grinding nearly. there are a ton of posts in the newb forum saying they made 150m in a week or two weeks. 500m for a corp war dec. is one person supposed to pay for it? of course not, the corp pools. that alone tosses out your comment immediately after.

5) your comment about my suggestion to limit when you can rejoin a player corp after leaving one is also nonsense. can no longer communicate? i'm sorry but did they suddenly add a limit on the number of channels we can make or join? they would be able to communicate just fine, and be able to moderate said channel to keep spies and enemies out.

on real hardcore korean mmorpg's where all they do is camp newbies in the newbie area, most of them dont let you join a guild after you leave one for quite a while. this is to prevent what eve is currently plagued with - tons of small corps that change damn near hourly. on the other hand who cares if they do it every 4 months. that's 4 months. new player retention isnt generally that long anyway, and would be better t han the corp jumping hourly we see right now.

you tried too hard with the politic, and left out the realistic

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Jager Petronovich

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:41:00 +0000

I find it interesting that What i said was possible and why it was bad was then echoed by Avon as something the devs created then scrapped. While the CSM and the candidates may say or not say anything as to bacon, I would like the candidates to at least respond if they agree usage in the manner i described is game breaking in their opinion or not. its a page back, sure it might have been ignored as an alt post since i did not have my tags enabled.

BTW its a tactic I know corps use already, just without the realtime data correlation that computers can give when players cannot be queried every few milliseconds..

and for giggles I know something is generally right since I agree with an Idle guns guy seeing as my old corp and myself used to fight them in small gang pvp in ihakana.

good times btw, and if i was scared of pvp but wanted to hang out in ihakana you bet id have bacon to keep them from ganking me.

dang pirates

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Avon

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Segge Bolled

If we were to be afraid of what might happen all the time, we needn't get up in the morning and the last few thousand years of humanity were an over-extension of effort (or an constant feat of foolish bravery) to say the least.

I think you are comming at this at the wrong angle.

I am talking about closing an exploitable hole in a game which can allow widespread "cheating".
I don't think that we should leave that hole open just in case someone uses it for something good.

It is up to CCP to invent the rockets, and decide how they are used, not us.

Eve-Online: The Text Adventure

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Segge Bolled

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:51:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
BACON is dangerous not so much because of what it does, but because of the consequences of allowing it.

I'm not trying to be condescending, but surely you're aware that humankind built large engines of destruction, called "rockets". The consequences of "allowing" them not has not only cost thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives, but also played a large part in plunging us into one of the most dangerous periods of human history - the Cold War - where we came rather close to snuffing ourselves out in a very messy fashion.

As it happens, those very same engines of destruction now consequently allow us (by delivering out satellites into orbit) to communicate across continents better than ever before and this is often done in the hope that together we can avoid the kinds of mistakes in communication that would cost millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of lives if rockets are used according to their previous application, what was once the most common consequence of their development.

I'm not arguing this "BACON" fiasco (as it has become) is exactly the same, but that I find it very hard to brook any argument which effectively states "don't be afraid of what will happen, rather be afraid of what might happen" - because consequences can be both "bad" and "good", even if an immediate effect of a development is in fact negative (and I'm not saying BACON is, either) it doesn't mean it is "all bad".

If we were to be afraid of what might happen all the time, we needn't get up in the morning and the last few thousand years of humanity were an over-extension of effort (or an constant feat of foolish bravery) to say the least.

The following statements probably represent the opinions of an individual and not necessarily those of their corporation or alliance - just in case you've forgotten to copy & paste the sign

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Jade Constantine

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:47:00 +0000

Well I'm campaigning for CSM election so I'm going to address your concerns and ideas below:

Originally by: Cissnei
griefers dont need anymore tools to help them. this game is already skewed in favor of the griefer due to many MANY factors. there is no way in hell local can be removed until they also remove any and all insurance payouts if concord destroys your ship.

While I do actually agree with you that Insurance should not be paid out to suicide attackers in empire you have a problem there - how does one make an automatic discrimination between a suicide attack on a freighter or an accidental application of smartbomb/gunfire against an alliance mate helping a mission or indeed one's own alt? If you make a rule to punish suicide attacks in this way you will catch some honest victims too. Maybe this - how about people with negative security levels don't get paid insurance from concord losses? Its a more complex issue than you make out however, needs some thought.

Quote:
griefers are already controlling the majority of this game.

Well Cissnei - the definition of "griefer" is something we probably need to look at. If you are saying that pvpers are griefers or people engaging in non-consensual combat then we'll have to disagree. I think there are "griefers" in Eve but they are metagamers, hackers, isk-farmers, cheats and people who make ooc threats. Eve is an open pvp combat game and you have to be realistic - people are going to get attacked in the eve setting and it does nobody any good to confuse legal play with nasty cheating out of game nonsense.

Quote:
local is the only tool that those with NO FIGHTING or PVP characters at all can have a reasonable chance of defending themselves, without having to put in several hundred k of skill points into scanning

Cloaks are good too. So are warp core scramblers, scouts, cooperative play, spacial awareness, map reporting tools, streetwise knowledge of whats what. Local in its current form is a double-edged sword at best. If you are out in 0.0 ninja ratting its as much an advantage for your hunters to see your name in local as it is for you to see theirs. If local wasn't there and everyone had to rely on scans then they would have to work harder to find you and it would be much easier to slip through the gaps in their territorial defense net. Some systems are so huge its really difficult to effective scan every celestial - these places would become hotbeds of ninja-technique and evasion. Serious point again is please think about these things - its not as polarized as you think.

Quote:
macro miners and isk farmers are an entirely different animal. theh best thing you can do is to NOT blow them up and file petitions so they can be caught in the act.

Agreed really.

Quote:
1) war decs cost 500m a week to maintain

What about newer war corps and mercs? Thats a huge amount of money are you trying to relegate empire pvp to old and rich characters/corps only?

Quote:
2) there are no longer insurance payouts if concord pops you

See above.

Quote:
3) if you leave a corp you may not rejoin another corp (outside of being put into the npc one auto) for a real life week

Week is a long time to be denied the social interaction of a player corp. I think this is quite an unsociable change - can I ask why you think this is specifically neccessary?

Quote:
4) you may not war dec corps less than 4 months old

Will lead to corps being founded and ditched each 4 months to avoid wardecs. Not a good idea.

Quote:
you cant remove local until you give real legit new players other avenues to protect themselves when they find themselves in the HIGH LIKLEYHOOD of being overmatched, and not until you fix the other r-tarded exploits people use

I don't think you are understanding the full implications of local removal/alteration. Lets talk about it in more detail since I think its an important item of future game development.

CSM Election Manifesto 2008

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Scout McAlt

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:38:00 +0000

Edited by: Scout McAlt on 21/04/2008 13:40:49
Local as a intel tool is not the issue here, it is the fact that a external program is using logs generated by a debugging tool to give up to the second intel and perfect security in 0.0 space.

The only way to kill people in a mining op or ratting is because there is no Alarm going off. BACON means that anyone can have massive alarm going off forcing them to get safe.

Why are people in 0.0 space if you dont want to get involved with danger? Because programs like these allow them to.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Cpt Branko

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Cpt Branko

Delay saving logs by 5 minutes, so it will physically cease to work without client modifications which are illegal.

This removes all usefulness from the tool. Logservers must report information as its processed because they report information which will disappear in the case of a failure.

Duh, no they don't.
There's a ton of very nifty ways to have a fuctioning useful logserver where info will not dissapear in anything barring a computer crash, and I could think of ways to get around that too if you gave me a day or two.

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An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Segge Bolled

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:22:00 +0000

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Delay saving logs by 5 minutes, so it will physically cease to work without client modifications which are illegal.

So that data does what for 5 minutes? Or should I instead ask, what is done with that data?

The following statements probably represent the opinions of an individual and not necessarily those of their corporation or alliance - just in case you've forgotten to copy & paste the sign

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Avon

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:19:00 +0000

In a previous post I mentioned that I was aware of at least one in-depth use of log server monitoring.
Let me go in to a little more detail before you all write BACON off as unimportant.
The system in question parsed gamelogs, and added the entries to a database. The logs were generated by no-skill alts, just sitting in certain systems, but it could have been expanded to use logs from every player in an alliance.
It generated a list of players, their corps and alliances, their movements everything you could want. It also plotted it all nicely on maps on a web-page, so you could see who was where, where they had been, how many, what direction, everything.
You could search the database for statistics on anyone who had been logged.

As it happens, the system never went "live". It was only run in a restricted environment where the developers could use it.
However, like BACON, technically it was all within the rules .. but that did not stop the authors from abandoning the project because it was felt to be cheating, even if it was "legal".

How much further could you go with such an application? How many different ways are there to use the data, and to represent it to the users?

That is the problem with allowing applications such as BACON. As soon as you say "reading the logs is fine, and applications which use them in any manner which does not directly modify the client is legal", then you find yourself in a whole world of poo.
There are lots of very clever people out there, and some projects which could be put to work in very short order, and giving them the green light could potentially unleash a Pandora's Box of "legal cheats".

That is the situation which I fear, and the one I feel should be avoided.

BACON is dangerous not so much because of what it does, but because of the consequences of allowing it.

That is why its method of operation must be stopped.

Maybe Groumindong would welcome an environment which allowed the creation of such tools, because he certainly puts himself forward as being in favour of the "out of sight, out of mind" method of fair-play, but that isn't a vision I share.

Eve-Online: The Text Adventure

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Cpt Branko

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:57:00 +0000

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2008 12:59:32

Originally by: Flaming sambuka
Ban bacon NOW.

Delay saving logs by 5 minutes, so it will physically cease to work without client modifications which are illegal.

As for people who are incapable of understanding why things like this are bad for the game or trying to theoretize that 'well, you can do that with watching local, or pulling off a complex stunt with mirrors, large monitors and stuff':
(a) Theorycraft of the 'you could do it already by spending a few thousand $ and making a extra-complex scheme already' variety is a bad sort of argument. Automatic cheap and easy to use way of doing things isn't OK just because you can do it already in much more complex ways is about as valid a argument as 'having automatic assault weapons legal and buyable in Wal-mart is OK because you can do the same with a pocket knife'.
(b) The fact people can watch local now (and can typically figure out more information then a automated piece of software can) doesn't mean the existence of tools like BACON is alright, for a number of reasons:

-You cannot watch local while AFK (it requires watching the actual window), while you do recieve a audio cue on jump-in/hostile jump-in when using BACON

-You cannot watch local while multi-tasking/having eve minimized, while you do get a audio cue with BACON

-Large locals require a bit of time to find wether they contain reds (so it's not instant), also requires constant attention, while you get both instant and non-attention consuming audio cue with BACON

-Dual/Triple boxing (for scouting purposes) means you have to actively *watch* what's going on with said chars, while when recieving a audio cue you only need to divert attention when there IS something to check out

-Watching local (particularly in systems with more people in) takes a chunk out of your attention span, and you have only a finite amount as a human, while recieving a audio cue doesn't.

While it's teorethically possible to do a lot of things tools like BACON do manually, practically it isn't.

If you wish to argue that point, I challenge you to run just two accounts, with one alt in Jita, one in Motsu and report hostile jump-ins on both It cannot be done in a normal way.

Also, EFT is hardly offering you a advantage (unlike BACON) which you cannot manually do - before I had it I did dps/tank/etc calculations by hand and you can get identical results manually - in addition, figuring out ship setups is not a 'must do in real time in-game all the time' task such as watching local is, which is the difference between the two.

Anti-BACON candidates naturally get my voice.

Originally by: Goumindong

Because I am willing to take an unpopular position when the facts support it?

That's a flat out lie, or someone changed the definition of word 'fact' to 'Guomindong's opinion'. I'm very annoyed when you say you're backed up by facts and cite a ton of your personal opinions.

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An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Eternal Hatred

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:44:00 +0000

Originally by: Flaming sambuka
As if it isn't hard enough to find low-sec targets already let alone hunt a carebear in .0! Ban bacon NOW. FOR CHRIST SAKE CCP.

.. you know the usual: Some cheese with that?
_________________

It's great being an Amarr, isn't it??? :(

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Flaming sambuka

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:19:00 +0000

As if it isn't hard enough to find low-sec targets already let alone hunt a carebear in .0! Ban bacon NOW. FOR CHRIST SAKE CCP.

WE PLAY WITH OUR MEMBERS

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Princess Gally

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Cissnei

you cant remove local until you give real legit new players other avenues to protect themselves when they find themselves in the HIGH LIKLEYHOOD of being overmatched, and not until you fix the other r-tarded exploits people use

You have my vote for CSM.

And I will install that BACON asap. Watching local every 30sec in a 100+ crowded system makes mining even more boring.
-------------ONCOMING REVOLUTION------------
Miners united. Set your Trit prices to 8.00!
--------------------------------------------

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Cissnei

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:52:00 +0000

griefers dont need anymore tools to help them. this game is already skewed in favor of the griefer due to many MANY factors. there is no way in hell local can be removed until they also remove any and all insurance payouts if concord destroys your ship.

griefers are already controlling the majority of this game. everytime i play around with a new character whether it's in amarr, gallente, minmatar or caldari space there's always some punk with bait cans trying to pop newbies. hell i've seen people just straight suicide gank 1 day old players on weekends, and what do they lose? nothing in most cases because for some ships insurance pays out more than what they spent for - especially in the forge

local is the only tool that those with NO FIGHTING or PVP characters at all can have a reasonable chance of defending themselves, without having to put in several hundred k of skill points into scanning

macro miners and isk farmers are an entirely different animal. theh best thing you can do is to NOT blow them up and file petitions so they can be caught in the act.

i dont approve of bacon and other programs like it, but there is no way local can be removed until the following:

1) war decs cost 500m a week to maintain

2) there are no longer insurance payouts if concord pops you

3) if you leave a corp you may not rejoin another corp (outside of being put into the npc one auto) for a real life week

4) you may not war dec corps less than 4 months old

you cant remove local until you give real legit new players other avenues to protect themselves when they find themselves in the HIGH LIKLEYHOOD of being overmatched, and not until you fix the other r-tarded exploits people use

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Jager Petronovich

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:43:00 +0000

Well while there are arguments on both sides, failure to view this as a potential abuse is unwise, even if there are legitimate uses already, Given that the program reads logs, What is stopping someone from reverse engineering it giving all local data gleamed from that source back to a massive database?

best way i can explain this is as such, if you open eve and go to the map you have statistics for the past 30 minutes or so. This is a valuable tool, What if you had a "hook" into the log stream that fired off a few packets to a webserver that then correlated the data offline in another usable window. This is NOT hard to do. granted I have not seen the code so adding onto it may be hard, but using its hook in method is not.

While maybe the above scenario doesnt seem like much, but everyone knows battles are won and lost by up to the minute data, IE realtime. Currently, bacon makes nonconsentual pvp harder and potentially totally unfair in situations, Ie if im reading a book and i hear an audio tone I know i have to open the client window and hit ctrl -q that is GAME BREAKING. its other uses like being in game and just having the audio to help me sort though data is less game breaking and fairly helpful.

The issue becomes this. and I think everyone can agree its unfair if this occurs.

Normal scenario

you have a bunch of guys out on patrol on gates because X alliance is after your POS. they respond on TS/vent and you know where they are going or coming to. You meet them battle.

Possible scenario with standard bacon setup now.

you have a bunch of guys out scouting and cloaked but game minimized, they listen for beep and report on TS/vent and the fight can begin. Unfair? yes, they are gathering intel at very low risk. game breaking not exactly but very close. If I do not have to have the client open to watch local at all then I have an unfair advantage over anyone forced to even have it windowed. if bacon works while your docked (it should) GAME BROKEN i can sit with no risk and report intel without EVER losing a ship and not having game visable at all.

Very possible and currently legal on the TOS/EULA modified bacon setup.

FC of fleet has members install bacon and sit in station(no risk) they minimize game. bacon grabs the logs and sends audio info as normal but also sends info of number of ships and system to a server with a massive eve map in real time, it gives out of game or ingame if setup right the Fc to see exact numbers of ships and movements in real time with NO risk. and no human response from his members in station. (alternatively no modification, a human with a printed set of eve maps can just add stickers/marks to denote a ship regardless of type to the starchart printed with bacon), I know where your going before your whole fleet does.

The below two simulations are made so members who dont see the above as an issue may see it in a different light if they have bacon running.

Wanna see where bob is whacking the goons? bob FC fires up the map and gets scouts out and cloaked in several known targets and a few non targets just to keep ppl hopping and sees ahh goons moving in x systems but cap ships havent left Y system since last used. we will go to say Nol then.

goons got pounded in nol so they do the same with bacon and they see bob leaving the RKK shipyards fairly unattended they move assets nearby over time knowing that bob probably is using bacon as well, and abort a titan.

The above is so game breaking it hurts to type the damn thing.

At the minimum Bacon as is allows me to gather intel constantly while only having the game running and MINIMIZED, never actually having to risk anything if im half smart, even if i have to undock i can sit in a safespot and just listen for a sound, and report on Ts/vent action that help me hurt you more.

If its integrated into EVE then so be it, but currently just because its on the forum DOES NOT mean everyone knows about it.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Jessica Lorelei

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 10:42:00 +0000

does anyone actually believe anything a politician says?

candidate 'oppinions' are just to grab votes.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by fuze

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 10:35:00 +0000

Originally by: Stratten
I can see those that denounce it in general represent the pvp/alliance warfare playstyle class and understand their rants. For that playstyle it certainly can be be a detriment. On the other hand, alot of pvp revolves around huge alliances which have stated or been linked to using such programs already, and in much larger scales. (servers storing information of entire regions realtime from various players in the alliance and the like)

Do you have any examples? It might be OT but on the other hand knowing more about this will contribute to this discussion.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Segge Bolled

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:34:00 +0000

Originally by: MotherMoon
maybe bacon ill be the reason CP finally removed local once and for all.

and then bacon will only tell you when a war target has spoken in local thus showing up.

which fun mind games will then be played.

heh, I can imagine:

Step 1) 100+ war targets enter local, in secret.
Step 2) They synchronize watches and at the appointed time, talk in local - in sequence.
Step 3) The sound cards of BACON uses are sizzled!

Stay tuned for the next step in EVE PvP: remote HDD formatting. Eat your heart out, RIAA!

* And on a more serious note, "BACON" isn't a high priority CSM issue in my opinion.

The following statements probably represent the opinions of an individual and not necessarily those of their corporation or alliance - just in case you've forgotten to copy & paste the sign

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Eternal Hatred

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:04:00 +0000

Originally by: Goumindong
Why? Because I am willing to take an unpopular position when the facts support it? Because i willing to look at all sides of an issue? Because I won't back down despite public pressure?

You will get both of my accounts votes for this! (And because you support Amarr cause too)
_________________

It's great being an Amarr, isn't it??? :(

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Stratten

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:18:00 +0000

Edited by: Stratten on 21/04/2008 08:23:35
I do not have bacon, nor will I use it or anything similar. I will assume that most alliances have already been using similar and more imbalanced tools under the radar for some time. After tonight and reading through a couple of bacon threads, I noticed:

I can see those that denounce it in general represent the pvp/alliance warfare playstyle class and understand their rants. For that playstyle it certainly can be be a detriment. On the other hand, alot of pvp revolves around huge alliances which have stated or been linked to using such programs already, and in much larger scales. (servers storing information of entire regions realtime from various players in the alliance and the like)

I can also see some form of relief from the other major playstyle, which is more task oriented aside from pvp. The ratters/miners/explorers and overall want to stay sneaky types. And I can see their side as well, anything to provide safety is welcome, as they generally are not involved in the massive intel alliances by choice, but rather by need if they are. Though there is a point of attaining safety that seems to go overboard here imo.

But my real concern and question about this program would be:

What other information is stored there? and how could a clever tech type abuse all of those aspects of information to gain an edge?

I could think of many other uses for data that can and probably is being used in much more imbalancing ways. Gathering realtime damage values to have a program determine the dps values for, or how the opponent may be loaded thru sound files ect, or using the bacon type information to gather intel on members habitual routes, systems over time as another example.

So many things could be programmed to calculate or notify, that my concern anyhow, is more at the possibilities that this "innocent" program opens up.

And thats without actually looking at those files, as I have no interest in doing so, they are reserved to help us troubleshoot, not base a program off of imo.

So then the question really to the candidates would become, would you condone any use good or bad that this process allows in the way of modified "tools"?

Before you answer, think hard at the possibilities that you aren't thinking of, and could already be in use against you that could come and derail your game one day.

Your answer on this one application does indeed represent your stance on all log-related program possibilities, good and bad. In my opinion anyhow...

I am more curious of the stances in light of all of the unknown, yet to be found or hidden possibilities that exist with using log file data, than I am with the one application in the title.

That would be my concerns, the program "bacon" itself really doesn't seem to me to be much of a game altering change, but then again I don't already use these types of tools (with a false sense of advantage), and don't have a problem paying attention to local as it is. And I always by default undock assuming my ship is blown-up...if it makes it back... bonus for me. :)

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Cailais

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:47:00 +0000

Originally by: Talarn Kalarn
Originally by: Eronysis
Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 06:22:57
Goumindong is one of the few people on this thread actually reading everything and making informed statements. I think there is some general confusion as to coherency in arguments, and ones emotional output. IE many here seem to respond much more readily to hysteria than reason.

Despite claims to the contrary, his arguments have plenty of logic in them... I guess a lot of people only see logic as an argument they agree with.

/signed.

Whilst I dont agree with everything Goumindong say, heck I dont agree with most of what he says you have to admit the blokes passionate about EVE and very willing to wade into the forum community and argue the merits, or otherwise, of an argument.

One of my votes is going to Jade Constantine - Goumindong is certainly in the running for my second vote because hes here - debating the issues, getting involved and standing his ground: I cant think what else you could need from a candidate.

C.

New Scanner Idea!

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Talarn Kalarn

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:41:00 +0000

Originally by: Eronysis
Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 06:22:57
Goumindong is one of the few people on this thread actually reading everything and making informed statements. I think there is some general confusion as to coherency in arguments, and ones emotional output. IE many here seem to respond much more readily to hysteria than reason.

Despite claims to the contrary, his arguments have plenty of logic in them... I guess a lot of people only see logic as an argument they agree with.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by AKULA UrQuan

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:38:00 +0000

Originally by: Goumindong
Why would it be any different than if you were paying attention to your channels. You are ratting away so you must be at your machine activating modules.

I can rat and monitor 2-3 chat channels, 2-3 defensive channels and local all at the same time. Is it such a huge deal that there is an auditory ping when you ought to be paying attention anyway?

Bacon automates the monitoring of at least one (local) of those channels. Even in a roundabout and indirect way. That's the crux of the problem right there. Bacon never gets bored, never makes an error, is always watching and, it would seem, fast enough in it's reaction time. It is a computer program after all.

With voice coms and text coms basic human error can play havoc with those two systems. I'm sure you've experienced that alot of the information from those two can be less than accurate at times. Let's not even get into the general pointless banter that goes on in voice coms. Bacon isn't subject to human error in it's role of alarm/tripwire since it's a computer program quitely running in the background.

You brought up programs such as evemon and EFT. Both of these programs do not interact with with game data at near real time intervals. Hell, EFT in itself is basicly useless without a solid understanding of the game mechanics or a veteran willing to guide the less experienced along. I designed alot of worthless junk useing quickfit (more powerfull imo) when I first started playing.

There is one bright spot in this whole bacon flap. This may be the thing that will force CCP's hand in doing something about the age old "local issue". Right now Bacon shifts the "hunter vs prey" ballance way over the the side of the prey. In case you haven't noticed before this program the hunter was already suffering on the solo-small gang fronts. The ballance between these two sides is in desperate need of equalization. Bacon clearly isn't helping here.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Goumindong

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh
In post [156] you basically said that this data is worthless and in post [162] you say now that players with eyes are more valuable doing that job.

I could ask you to elaborate this, but I won't, I'm not really interested in it. You have your opinion and I have mine and I think we won't come to a conclusion even if we post on the next 100 pages. At the end it's CCPs decision to decide about that matter, but I really hope they won't tolerate 3rd party programs like this one.

In post 156 i said the data from the Bacon program was worthless how you have presented it yes. The data a person can gather and the data that BACON can gather are vastly different in scope and presentation.

Vote Goumindong for CSM

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Franga

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:58:00 +0000

Originally by: MotherMoon
maybe bacon ill be the reason CCP finally removed local once and for all.

Oh please, let this come to pass.

Originally by: Rachel Vend
... with 100% reliability in most cases ...

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Malaan Tabfassh

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:49:00 +0000

In post [156] you basically said that this data is worthless and in post [162] you say now that players with eyes are more valuable doing that job.

I could ask you to elaborate this, but I won't, I'm not really interested in it. You have your opinion and I have mine and I think we won't come to a conclusion even if we post on the next 100 pages. At the end it's CCPs decision to decide about that matter, but I really hope they won't tolerate 3rd party programs like this one.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Goumindong

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:23:00 +0000

Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh
Getting data from BACON, processing it and let the output be handled by teamspeak or vent for example. And you don't need a player for that, Microsoft SAM does fine. The client is not affected.

So now you have hundreds of things reporting all over the place and its still not as valuable as a player with eyes.

Vote Goumindong for CSM

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Eronysis

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:22:00 +0000

Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 06:22:57
Goumindong is one of the few people on this thread actually reading everything and making informed statements. I think there is some general confusion as to coherency in arguments, and ones emotional output. IE many here seem to respond much more readily to hysteria than reason.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Malaan Tabfassh

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:20:00 +0000

Getting data from BACON, processing it and let the output be handled by teamspeak or vent for example. And you don't need a player for that, Microsoft SAM does fine. The client is not affected.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by jongalt

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:16:00 +0000

umm, lol?

goumindong has written more quality, well-thought (and perhaps at times, controversial) contributions to improving eve-online game-play than most people on these forums.

if you cant see the value of those contributions, well...i guess you will get what you deserve. after "super-tuesday" (or whatever they end up calling the day we vote), we all will.

-jg.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Goumindong

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh
Originally by: Goumindong
Audio cues from everywhere in the galaxy would be worthless. In order to receive accurate intel you would need someone at that computer to manually activate a VOIP program or manually input text into a chat box.

Don't worry, I'll write a program doing that work. Such a program which uses raw data BACON provides can do other nice things too, like some people in different posts also pointed out.

And don't underestimate peoples creativity, what do you think will be next? There are some great brains out there.

And that would be a macro if it automated any of eves functions. Which is against the EULA.

Vote Goumindong for CSM

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Malaan Tabfassh

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:41:00 +0000

Originally by: Goumindong
Audio cues from everywhere in the galaxy would be worthless. In order to receive accurate intel you would need someone at that computer to manually activate a VOIP program or manually input text into a chat box.

Don't worry, I'll write a program doing that work. Such a program which uses raw data BACON provides can do other nice things too, like some people in different posts also pointed out.

And don't underestimate peoples creativity, what do you think will be next? There are some great brains out there.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Goumindong

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:24:00 +0000

Edited by: Goumindong on 21/04/2008 05:25:11

Originally by: TheCraftyHippo

Human participation is removed in favor of cloaked, undetectable, non-interactive alts just waiting to send a audio cue from anywhere in the galaxy.

Audio cues from everywhere in the galaxy would be worthless. In order to receive accurate intel you would need someone at that computer to manually activate a VOIP program or manually input text into a chat box.

edit: Maybe you should look at the main part of that, the undetectable cloaking ship that can afk anywhere it wants?

Vote Goumindong for CSM

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by TheCraftyHippo

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:18:00 +0000

Originally by: Goumindong
Why? Because I am willing to take an unpopular position when the facts support it? Because i willing to look at all sides of an issue? Because I won't back down despite public pressure?

Surely you want someone who will instead cave to pressure and not give any serious objections when developers or players are pushing for options that would damage eve?

This is crazy. This IS damaging to Eve. Many people here are stating serious objections to this program that IS damaging to Eve. You're asking a rhetorical question, which is completely ridiculous, which is entirely the opposite of what you're currently doing. You just indicted yourself.

The arguments you're presenting in your previous posts are borderline ridiculous. They are representative of one who is attempting to rationalize something that common sense and general consensus clearly states as wrong.

BACON removes human interaction from intelligence gathering. In order to have someone watch local for you, you have to involve other people. Other people involved in what you are doing is called teamwork. Teamwork is the foundation and the reason corporations exist. When the person who's watching local for you informs you of a security threat, he is participating in one of the foundational elements of the game.

BACON allows corporations and teamwork to be completely bypassed to gain the same security. All those intelligence channels that you need to have open in 0.0 in order to survive that involve people actually playing the game participating in teamwork and working with others is rendered completely obsolete. People have entire Eve careers based on intel gathering, which is seriously reduced.

Human participation is removed in favor of cloaked, undetectable, non-interactive alts just waiting to send a audio cue from anywhere in the galaxy.

The fact that you cannot see this as something terrible is utterly astounding.

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Goumindong

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:09:00 +0000

Edited by: Goumindong on 21/04/2008 05:15:22

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

Actually, none of that. Mostly because you said you don't think before making an argument.

Read it again. This time look at what you wrote before making accusations.

"Cannot post an argument without thinking"

Can not post an argument without thinking

"post an argument without thinking" is the thing that i am not able to do.

Which would mean that i am unable to do the thing you are accusing me of by your words and mine.

Or were you just posting without thinking there?

Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh

That's not the point. Macros are public too and anyone can use them.

Ahh, but macros are against the EULA and this is not. Should using log server data be against the EULA? I'm not sure. This program at least provides a minimal benefit, and to provide significant benefit you would need massive resource expenditures[which very well may be against the EULA]

The point is that its publicity is not something that makes it stand apart from any other third party program, nor is its utility. The only arguments that can be made to its validity come to the effect it will have on the game it it is not changed, which are minimal as far as i can tell.

Vote Goumindong for CSM

An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON - by Malaan Tabfassh

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 04:56:00 +0000

Originally by: Goumindong
But the program is public, anyone can use it.

That's not the point. Macros are public too and anyone can use them.

Originally by: Goumindong
Similarly large monitors allow you to have more of the local screen open at one time as well as organize other information better. Does this parallelism constitute and unfair advantage? Do we ban large monitors because someone else might not be able to use a smaller screen as well?

Does the monitor interact with the client or the logs in another way than CCP wants it to act? That would be a valid point in a FPS as the gamma affects the darkness of some game enviroments.

Originally by: Goumindong
You can also just ask someone to yell on TS whenever anyone enters local...

Granted, we have unemployment here. I should ask someone.