EVE-Search ForumWatch http://eve-search.com/ The alternative EVE-Online Forum browser. en-us Thu, 4 Dec 2008 00:00:00 +0000 EVE-Search RSS Module v1.0 chribba@evemail <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Bodhisattvas]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#70 Originally by: Captator
Bodhi, what is it that you see blackops role on a battlefield as?

I am agreed that they need more jumprange and a bigger fuelbay, but think the problem is more deep rooted than that - the ships don't have much useful function in a recon gang that I see (sure some extra dps is nice...), and they cannot operate truly covertly as they cannot move around without being visible on scanner.

I respect you calling it as you see it, but can you provide us with a bit more information?


Ok firstly thanks for not flaming as my 2 previous posts were my version of diplomacy in the face of stupidity.

Role primarily is introducing a covert recon fleet behind enemy lines, pretty much as ccp describe. Low sec 0.0 where ever
ship use is permitted.

Personaly I can see this as viable even in the black ops present state but..... due to lack of usable jump range and
fuel capacity the black op at the moment is not realising it's full potential.

The fuel problem can be rectified to an extent by cramming lows with cargo expanders but this is not really a perfect
scenario. The range problem is more serious as even with jump calibration 5 it is not possible to cyno to even a system right
next door, otelen to huola being an example. Half a billion isk worth of ship and it can't use its primary function without
having to use a jump gate instead.

I own and use a sin, its setup stolen from an early battleclinic setup. The only modification being minor ones to compliment
the fact the sin is a drone boat, sentries etc. I'd still prefer the option to fit a full tank instead of a low full of expanders and
even then no way would I ever consider it in a 1 to 1 scenario unless it was forced upon me.

My sin is basically a glorified recon stealth bomber taxi but that does not lessen it role, once the dust settles and situation
permits then it can be introduced into the battle but only at range and at my discretion.

Personally if peeps want to go solo with it then so be it, but your working with a sub standard battleship (from a offensive view)from the
onset and asking ccp to un-nerf something which was designed for a totally different role is setting yourself up for
dissapointment.

With regard to "they cannot operate truly covertly as they cannot move around without being visible on scanner."

Hmmm one scenario might be jumping a low sec camp. Common for camps to have scouts on gates on most surrounding systems
just so they can see prey or blobs coming to take them out.

Alt covert cyno falcon pilot enters target system and positions himself say 50km from gate with camp, pops covert cyno then sin creates
jump bridge and recons right next to him jump to alt. A motley collection of rapier's,arazu's pilgrim's and perhaps
another falcon, chuck some stealth bombers in for good measure. I suggest cyno falcon primarily as he might need to defend
himself for 30 sec or so. Ideally you could have a few bs a couple of jumps out for extra damage or for jump outs.

Ok 50km range would require faction ew at least so initial cyno range could be modified but there is no need for the sin to be
in system at that point so cloak type is irrelevant in my opinion. Sin is ideally going to be a few jumps out in a deep safe cloaked.

Don't get me wrong I would love a full cloak on the beast but giving its role as i see it then its not really a requirement.


This is the most obvious scenario i can think but am sure that others have much more ingenius uses.

0.0 use also needs addressed due to cyno jammers etc as well as the fuel and jump range.
I have heard peeps suggest it could have an extra function in disabling cyno jammers for 0.0

Not really a fan of 0.0 as weird blobtastic things that frankly scare the b'jeez out of me
when I have lived out there in the past.
]]> Mon, 21 Jul 2008 02:55:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8341532 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by ElCoCo]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#69 Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Well not flyin one myself (have only amarr and caldari BS5) butRL friend uses one so i've seen it in action. And tbh its just like cheap machariel - and works well too. Good DPS, decent tank and yeah - bumping speed which is very important for ganking :) But still IMO its the best blackops in game, ship which actually works like t2 (that is: better than t1) where other blackops are worse than t1 counterparts.
Well it realy performs much worse than a machariel, it's very very slugish so it can't accelerate fast enough to get out of difficult situations. And it's hardly cheap compared to the machariel since you actualy need more agility/weight decreasing stuff to make it comfortably work and the mach has an extra rigslot for that.
I do fly them all but I've only bought a panther on TQ. Not impressed one bit... well, the widow is fun-ish to fly but you're a real bullet magnet so meh.
Boink!]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:19:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8339450 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Deva Blackfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#68 Originally by: ElCoCo
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And funny part is: panther is probably the fastest battleship in game (and one of fastest ships too). In record breaking setup (implants, deadspace mods, boosters etc) it can hit over 50km/s (cloaked with estamel cloak). The "cheap" combat mode can hit 10-15km/s easy (cloaked). And for ppl who say speed is not important: oh yes it is. With 10+km/s you can easily bump cap ships 20-40km off station.
Indeed, bumping is the only thing I've done with my panther though.
You need a full snakeset to compensate for the inertia stabilisers you need to have to make the ship viable for anything else as it's too, too slugish. The machariel is much more manouverable but the panther sort of compensates by having a significant ammount of it's DPS (5xhvy drones) not be affected by tracking.


Well not flyin one myself (have only amarr and caldari BS5) butRL friend uses one so i've seen it in action. And tbh its just like cheap machariel - and works well too. Good DPS, decent tank and yeah - bumping speed which is very important for ganking :) But still IMO its the best blackops in game, ship which actually works like t2 (that is: better than t1) where other blackops are worse than t1 counterparts.
]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:42:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8339204 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by ElCoCo]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#67 Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And funny part is: panther is probably the fastest battleship in game (and one of fastest ships too). In record breaking setup (implants, deadspace mods, boosters etc) it can hit over 50km/s (cloaked with estamel cloak). The "cheap" combat mode can hit 10-15km/s easy (cloaked). And for ppl who say speed is not important: oh yes it is. With 10+km/s you can easily bump cap ships 20-40km off station.
Indeed, bumping is the only thing I've done with my panther though.
You need a full snakeset to compensate for the inertia stabilisers you need to have to make the ship viable for anything else as it's too, too slugish. The machariel is much more manouverable but the panther sort of compensates by having a significant ammount of it's DPS (5xhvy drones) not be affected by tracking.
Boink!]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:02:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8339015 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Captator]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#66
I am agreed that they need more jumprange and a bigger fuelbay, but think the problem is more deep rooted than that - the ships don't have much useful function in a recon gang that I see (sure some extra dps is nice...), and they cannot operate truly covertly as they cannot move around without being visible on scanner.

I respect you calling it as you see it, but can you provide us with a bit more information?
]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:56:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8339014 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Bodhisattvas]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#65 Originally by: SuiJuris
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Originally by: SuiJuris
in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.

That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.


Originally by: Bodhisattvas

The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.



Ok stupid reasons lets recap, They can do DPS but only has a super expensive Glass cannon, that because of there shitty scan res takes as previously mentioned 45 SECONDS to lock onto a Cruiser which could of killed them before they locked it.

Man these reasons sure sound stupid...

Originally by: Bodhisattvas


You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.



Yes you would be stupid to do this, no that does not mean there ok. So what else can you do with them? Oh well they suck for Ewar due to shitty lock times and there being better ships for the job, and there shitty at ganking plus to expensive, oh and there whole jump bridge shit is worthless because of the crappy range. I guess that leaves shiny hanger ornement.

Originally by: Bodhisattvas


Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.

The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.



LMFAO, lets use our low slots on cargo expanders because moving like a snail and having no tank on a ship thats over half a bil easily is a great idea...

Originally by: Bodhisattvas


Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob

when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?

Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.


Garbage

Also on a side note the Pilgrim is better for the cov ops hauler role that someone mentioned.

My reply is as deserving in respect and dirctly proportional to the shite you took
time to compose.

Shut the **** up you moron you have the misguided notion that these ships were designed to solo.
They are not **** nuts hence several of the properties built into the ship are there exactly so
people do not solo with them.

They were designed to compliment covert missions into enemy terrority not be solo uber ships.
Again hence the ships properties, but at the same time it seems ccp were worried that they might be
too powerful so even the covert properties of the ship were weakened.

Damn it your either a ****** of immense proportion who has never flown the ship but merely right click
and read properties or your just trying to wind folk up.

You want an offensive battleship then stick to your dominix and put a cloak on it or something... happy now sweetpea ?

]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:17:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8338780 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Bodhisattvas]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#64 Originally by: White Ronin
Originally by: Bodhisattvas


The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.

You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.

Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.

The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.

Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob
when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?

Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.

WTF are you smoking?
Its not the grid thats the core problem. Not the tank or nothing.
The first and foremost problem with these ships is their use in combat in A PVP GAME!
A scan resolution that is cut to 60% or even 79% and a "no delay on targeting due to sensor calibration" is worthless crap since it takes you about 45 seconds to target cruisers. Anyone still around after you actually achieve lock WANTS to be there.

Its only use after the addition of a expanded fuel bay or whatever will be as the most expensive covert hauler in the universe. THats the "niche" you are talking about.

And what is this crap about people who are pro-blob being the whiners. The ship has no functionality solo except in rare situations where you catch a weak ship alone and far away from help. Its only chance to not go BOOM is to be part of the blob and you are talking about expanding its fuel bay or reduce consumption to make this its viable role.
Trust me. I am solo and I would LOVE to be able to take that baby for a spin.
But at an uninsured half billion before fittings I would do better to buy lint and wait for the fun to role in.
Watch that barrel it has monkeys... yeah.

The ONLY one of them that has a chance of being worth damn is the Caldari cause of its ecm bonus. The rest lack tank, lack targeting ability and have reduced firepower.

Please, blah blah all you want they are a PVP ship in a PVP game that lack the ability to realistically engage in PVP.
Your "ideas" of simple fixes are simply your need for a covert hauler and nothing more.


Yes you do blaah blaah a lot.

Don't get the point **** nuts now you do ? Pvp all you want in a black ops but after you lose the
first few the jokes on you. You wanna go out and solo in a ship designed to pvp in a support role then
you be the stupid then.

The ships works now but poorly due to lack of range and fuel capacity, anything else ccp want to (if they ever bother)
improve is all good.

Hell I managed to read the rest your drivel but you still wouldn't get the point even after ****ting you with
a 2 by 4 several times so I won't bother sweetpea.
]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:04:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8338719 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Deva Blackfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#63 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 20/07/2008 15:21:15
Originally by: ElCoCo
Edited by: ElCoCo on 20/07/2008 08:01:03
Originally by: Rajere
Black ops have nice agility but crappy tanks compared to regular BS
They actualy have half the agility of their t1 counterparts Razz
I won't even mention their mass Rolling Eyes
Prenerf for the win, we don't want to go all nano on our 500mil ships hehe


And funny part is: panther is probably the fastest battleship in game (and one of fastest ships too). In record breaking setup (implants, deadspace mods, boosters etc) it can hit over 50km/s (cloaked with estamel cloak). The "cheap" combat mode can hit 10-15km/s easy (cloaked). And for ppl who say speed is not important: oh yes it is. With 10+km/s you can easily bump cap ships 20-40km off station.

Quote:

I only gain 50ms or something cloaked. With a cov ops cloak, you dont need to 'drop the cloak' to warp, as you can warp whnever you like.


Fly a panther. Difference (at lv5) is almost 2x the speed (panther ucloaked 5km/s, cloaked 8,8km/s with DG cloak). Estamel cloak brings that to 10km/s but thats too expensive - DG is enough.

When it comes to redeemer tho its... ugh. That ship is way slower than geddon even in nano+cloak mode.
]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:18:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8338214 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Waxau]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#62 Originally by: Rajere
except for the part about removing the speed bonus while cloaked. Black ops have nice agility but crappy tanks compared to regular BS, and being able to align and get up to speed while cloaked enables you to instawarp when you drop cloak. it's one of the Black Ops more useful abilities.


With a covert ops cloak, they'll go their base speed, which true...wont be AS FAST as they are now whilst cloaked, but with being able to warp cloaked, you'll be able to warp out, and warp back to a belt at the range etc you need, rather than the general 'weeeeee 300ms.....)

I only gain 50ms or something cloaked. With a cov ops cloak, you dont need to 'drop the cloak' to warp, as you can warp whnever you like.
]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:16:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8337368 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Derek Sigres]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=3#61 Originally by: Pesht
Edited by: Pesht on 17/07/2008 08:34:06
Originally by: Waxau
Originally by: Pesht
Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless.


Yeah - 800 dps if its close range with torps, uses all its lows for BCU, with a crap jamming strength, no tank, takes 20 seconds to lock a BS, and oh. That was it. Jump drive/bridge is useless for any form of NORMAL, NON-******ED use.


It's ability to travel quickly under cloak allows it to use close range torps, and it does 800 dps with only 2 BCU(800dps is including drones), allowing for it to fit 2 SDA in the other low slows, giving it easily better jamming strength than a scorp (it gets a BETTER ecm bonus than the scorp if you noticed).

It's armor and shields is less but comparable to other BS, hardly "no tank".

And finally, if you fit a sensor booster with targeting resolution scripts, you lock faster than a scorpion does even with the cloak fitted.

So lets review, the only complaint you said which was valid was- oh, none of them were.


You're missing one incredibly downside: cost. Yep, one can finance 8 - 10 fitted scorpions for the price on one Widow. For the extreme price discrepency what do you get? A ship that does 200 more DPS and less ability to absorb damage plus natively reduced locking abilities lending little credibility to it's ECM capabilities if other ECM boats are lurking.

Sure you can overcome lots of these issues but you're making an awful lot of compromises for 200 DPS and a jump drive.
]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:49:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8337367 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Captator]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#60 Originally by: Rajere
except for the part about removing the speed bonus while cloaked. Black ops have nice agility but crappy tanks compared to regular BS, and being able to align and get up to speed while cloaked enables you to instawarp when you drop cloak. it's one of the Black Ops more useful abilities.


don't need the speed bonus if they can covops cloak Wink
]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:41:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8336482 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by ElCoCo]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#59 Edited by: ElCoCo on 20/07/2008 08:01:03
Originally by: Rajere
Black ops have nice agility but crappy tanks compared to regular BS
They actualy have half the agility of their t1 counterparts Razz
I won't even mention their mass Rolling Eyes
Prenerf for the win, we don't want to go all nano on our 500mil ships hehe

Boink!]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:00:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8336360 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Rajere]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#58 NOTR
How to Fail at Eve
]]> Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:02:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8335537 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Battlestar Galactica]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#57 ]]> Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:42:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8333534 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Rajere]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#56
Quote:
Posted - 2008.07.18 21:24:00 - [43] - QuoteReport
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

Go to Syndicate and pick a scrap with him if you think they are weak - he gives free lessons in losing your ship...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A domi could accomplish the same thing at 1/15th the cost.

I would happily take on a black ops in my domi any day. Especially the sin, its bonuses are garbage.

Actually, it couldn't. We all know the blackops launched pre-nerfed, and in their current state there's only a few reasons to bother with using them, and that's their ability to do sneaky ninja stuff like jump to a covert cyno. In their current state you can't jump into a cynojammed system, which basically eliminates all the 0.0 systems with the kind of targets you'd want to jump/jumpbridge your gang into anyway. The only players in the un-cynojammed systems are cloaking ravens ninja ratting.

So the only appeal for blackops as they currently exist is for players in npc 0.0/low sec. Blackops allowed outlaws the ability to get into all those little pockets of low sec space surrounded by high sec systems (this is the reason SK got a blackops), Since the change to faction navy not scramming outlaws in highsec, a blackops is no longer needed (but it is safer of course). The other thing it allows you to do is bypass all the systems between you and your neighbor's back systems so you can kill their NPCers. Again this only works (as it stands now) for non-cynojammed systems, which is all of npc 0.0 space. Now in this particular case, the cheetah cyno alt is in those systems all the time looking for targets anyway, probing for missioners/plexes, etc. if there's a bunch of targets in space or it looks like they have a gang ready to fight, we'll just fly our gang over to meet them. But for the lone target of opportunity the blackops does exactly what it's supposed to do.

It's just another tool available for people to use. All the the residents of syndicate/solitude know who mega is. They know that if they are in a mission or plex, he is already in the process of probing you out. They better know that if they're just sitting in some safespot, that chances are his cheetah is already sitting next to you cloaked. Now, instead of flying a domi however many jumps and getting reported however many times in their intel channels, the cov ops decloaks by bumping into you knocking you out of alignment, puts a point on you and lights a cyno. What comes through just depends on what you have and how good you are at hiding your backup, could be just a black ops, could be several blackops with alot of recon/stealth bomber support. either way, GG.
NOTR
How to Fail at Eve
]]> Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:29:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8333479 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Gimpb]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#55 Edited by: Gimpb on 19/07/2008 14:49:21
Something as simple as a rig allowing any sub-cap to use the portal could make it pretty useful.

I guess the idea is to use it to move stealth bombers, cov ops, and recons around. But the only one of those ships without a special cloaking ability is the combat recon--two light years worth of jumps for a cloaking ship isn't exactly a big deal. It's probably less risky than having a cov ops decloak to cyno (thus making is probe-able) in a hot system.

It does seem like it could potentially be good for moving people around though; can the black ops portal to a normal cyno out of currosity? I could see a cap fleet bringing along its support fleet ships in the carrier bays and the support fleet players via the jump portal.

It's still very short range though, it might be nice if it could port stuff very long distances.
]]> Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:48:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8332089 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Kaaii]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#54
Marking this thread for later finger pointing...
ugh




According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there.
kieron
Director of Community Relations,
]]> Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:19:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8331938 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by oniplE]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#53 Edited by: oniplE on 19/07/2008 01:04:28
The bonuses on these ships are just stupid.

For example: a Sin has two damage bonuses, an agility and cloaked speed bonus.
What the hell am I going to do with the damage bonuses? Shoot people with my "Cardboard, 4 turret Sin" worth half a bil? Hell no?

Why not remove the damage bonuses and change them into something that actually helps it in its Black Ops role? It should have been positioned as a platform for "Black Ops" operations, not some weird hybrid DPS + Cov Ops ship making it mediocre at both roles.

I say remove a lot of DPS from these ships and give them some proper support bonuses for covert operations.
x]]> Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:04:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8329168 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Captator]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#52 ]]> Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:32:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328995 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Waxau]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#51
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=819294

Check it out those who have BO knowledge, and give your opinions :) THE TIME FOR B.O HAS COME!

B.O - Fear it. Even if you have Lynx.
]]> Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:27:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328994 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Deva Blackfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#50 1. ability to cyno into jammed systems
2. longer jump range (carrier one imo)
3. less fuel consumption (both for jump and bridging) + fuel bay
4. remove stupid cloak penalty (less sig)

With those 4 at once even redeemer would be somewhat better off than it is now.
]]> Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:23:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328938 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Waxau]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#49
]]> Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:07:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328892 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Captator]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#48 Originally by: Waxau
Originally by: Captator
Originally by: Waxau
Actually Captator, both of those were what i want :D Together.

Black ops need an overhall. simple as that. But the whole 'not-cloaked-when-warping' removes any 'MWHA! Here i am! Pewpewpew' value. Its a stealth bomber scenario.


How about force and combat equivalent variations of blackops, however, both can use covops cloak - one lot have damage/range/weapon bonuses, and other have racial ewar bonuses?

It is worse than stealth bomber - if you see stealth bomber on scan, you might go looking for it, if you see blackops on scan, you go hollering in intel/alliance/corp for mates to form up a gang and then actively seek to blockade/gank it.


Well ive always thought that BO should be Recon sized BS tbh - A Force BO, and a Combat BO would be fine, but i dont think both should be able to warp cloaked. Removes variation (Note the difference between the Falcon and Rook) Needs a way to distinguish, without messing the other up.


The divide I propose is along a different line - one can do the racial ewar, one can do the racial damage, instead of one being ewar and cloak, and the other ewar and dps (as is the case with recons).

eg: Widow (ewar version): jam strength/range bonuses for BS skill, cloak bonus and missile damage/rof bonus on BO skill (note damage bonus is on the BO skill - reduces dps from all but the most hardcore of pilots, and even at 5, dps lower than combat version)

Widow (combat version): missile rof/velocity/damage on BS skill (pick 2), then cloak bonus and jam strength bonus on BO skill (again at BO 5 the ships overlap to a degree - jam strength is limited unless BO 5, and even then range is lower)

This would be a good way of generating 2 flavours of black ops ships I think.

If you think it is worthwhile I can flesh out the concept with the other racial BOs
]]> Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:39:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328771 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Waxau]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#47 Originally by: Captator
Originally by: Waxau
Actually Captator, both of those were what i want :D Together.

Black ops need an overhall. simple as that. But the whole 'not-cloaked-when-warping' removes any 'MWHA! Here i am! Pewpewpew' value. Its a stealth bomber scenario.


How about force and combat equivalent variations of blackops, however, both can use covops cloak - one lot have damage/range/weapon bonuses, and other have racial ewar bonuses?

It is worse than stealth bomber - if you see stealth bomber on scan, you might go looking for it, if you see blackops on scan, you go hollering in intel/alliance/corp for mates to form up a gang and then actively seek to blockade/gank it.


Well ive always thought that BO should be Recon sized BS tbh - A Force BO, and a Combat BO would be fine, but i dont think both should be able to warp cloaked. Removes variation (Note the difference between the Falcon and Rook) Needs a way to distinguish, without messing the other up.
]]> Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:17:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328683 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Captator]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#46 Originally by: Waxau
Actually Captator, both of those were what i want :D Together.

Black ops need an overhall. simple as that. But the whole 'not-cloaked-when-warping' removes any 'MWHA! Here i am! Pewpewpew' value. Its a stealth bomber scenario.


How about force and combat equivalent variations of blackops, however, both can use covops cloak - one lot have damage/range/weapon bonuses, and other have racial ewar bonuses?

It is worse than stealth bomber - if you see stealth bomber on scan, you might go looking for it, if you see blackops on scan, you go hollering in intel/alliance/corp for mates to form up a gang and then actively seek to blockade/gank it.
]]> Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:58:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328627 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Waxau]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#45
Black ops need an overhall. simple as that. But the whole 'not-cloaked-when-warping' removes any 'MWHA! Here i am! Pewpewpew' value. Its a stealth bomber scenario.
]]> Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:49:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328541 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Captator]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#44 Originally by: Waxau
Right: Time to do this i think:

Black Ops Proposals:

1. Allow Cov Ops Cloaks.
- Nukes the speed bonus (has no real role), so goes base speed.
- Removes the Scan Res problems that have been experienced
- Gives Black Ops a true 'guerilla warfare' stealth apeal
- DOESNT make them overpowered: A force recon, that has the movement of a BS = easy to catch when organised

2. All Black Ops to have their roles to be changed to their Recon variants:
- Widow : ECM Strength, ECM Range, Same BS Bonus (Missile velocity + Rof)
- Sin : Scramble Range, Sensor Damp effectiveness, Same BS Bonus (drone damage/hp, blaster damage)
- Panther : Web Range/effectiveness, target painting effectiveness, Same BS bonus (large proj rof and damage)
- Redeemer : Nos/neut Range (NOTE! NOT NOS AMOUNT!), Tracking Disrupting effectiveness, Same Bs Bonus (cap use reduction, turret rof)


I favour 1 personally, you cannot do covert work when to move anywhere you have to be visible on scanner, that is just idiocy. They should perhaps still have very low scan res as now, so that they cannot solopwn most targets - need a tackler to hold em down till you can apply the pain, which supports their (intended?) role, as dps in cloaking gangs.
]]> Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:32:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328461 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Xaen]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#43 Originally by: Jita Dancer
Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

Go to Syndicate and pick a scrap with him if you think they are weak - he gives free lessons in losing your ship... Confused
A domi could accomplish the same thing at 1/15th the cost.

I would happily take on a black ops in my domi any day. Especially the sin, its bonuses are garbage.
-
Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs]]> Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:24:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8328085 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Waxau]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#42
Black Ops Proposals:

1. Allow Cov Ops Cloaks.
- Nukes the speed bonus (has no real role), so goes base speed.
- Removes the Scan Res problems that have been experienced
- Gives Black Ops a true 'guerilla warfare' stealth apeal
- DOESNT make them overpowered: A force recon, that has the movement of a BS = easy to catch when organised

2. All Black Ops to have their roles to be changed to their Recon variants:
- Widow : ECM Strength, ECM Range, Same BS Bonus (Missile velocity + Rof)
- Sin : Scramble Range, Sensor Damp effectiveness, Same BS Bonus (drone damage/hp, blaster damage)
- Panther : Web Range/effectiveness, target painting effectiveness, Same BS bonus (large proj rof and damage)
- Redeemer : Nos/neut Range (NOTE! NOT NOS AMOUNT!), Tracking Disrupting effectiveness, Same Bs Bonus (cap use reduction, turret rof)

Purpose of these changes: Force Recons are somewhat balanced to a greater extent imo.

The Falcon might be somewhat overpowered, and thus a battleship variant is again, a bit too strong. But for such a highly spec'd and expensive ship, i personally believe it should be a bit better than a 70 mil falcon:P (Damage ability).

The Panther bonus i believe is balanced, due to the ability to act like a normal BS, but with uberstrong webs, gives it the bonus of speed (out of their web range) along with damage. Gives it a nice little combo above the rapier).

The Sin is somewhat underpowered in the most part, due to the damps not being that fantastic. However, the flip side is, an 80km scramble range. Who needs tacklers when you have a BS that can do it from 80km off eh? Snipe with sentries, highs/mods as drone mods...perfect imo. Damps play a part for those not sensorboosted.

The Redeemer some might as about. The reason ive suggested range rather than amount, is of the current Pilgrim crisis. The ship is seen as underpowered, due to the bonuses. The bonus of range is very useful, as it stops 'counter-neuting' along with the other close range issues/nesessities, such as tank (14km neut range = web range = death for speed tankers) along with overall tackling issues. Replacing the pilgrim's bonus with range instead of neut/nos amount would be on the road to fixing it. Likewise would be benifitial to the redeemer. Scenario here would be low slot tank, neuts in high, tracking disruptors in low. Helps the rest of the crew if getting shot at, and the redeemer can always tank.

On the topic of tank: I also propose Black Ops gain a tad bit of tank. Nothing major, but something a bit better than 'cruiser' status (which, lets be fair...it is). No actual numbers, or thoughts on this - Other than, id like to be able to see my Widow atleast stay above 60% shields, when a drake launches a single volley at me :P

Finally, Jump drives - We NEED to have more range, a fuel bay, AND personally, some other 'extra' for the jump bridge. As of right now, the jump bridge is rather limited. As is the jump range. My proposed change is that of (as others have suggedted) allow black ops to 'jump' to a sun of a system. By doing so, it gives an easy opportunity for folks to restrict black ops movement (laying a bubble at a sun for example), yet adds a role to Black Ops. Combined with that, it gives a Jump-drive ship the reduced need for a 'second character' scenario, where you always have to alt tab, just to play.

Further to improve this, i believe Cov Ops Cynos should work in Cyno-jammed systems. This would then allow folks to jump portal covert ships behind enemy lines, in complete secrecy (as to location). This is still however possible without a Cyno (Via the Sun), however for organised groups, the latter is far more risky.

I have no doubt that what ive said is overpowered, unbalanced, and so on. However, from where im sitting, there a major holes in the black ops atm. We need to start somewhere :P
]]> Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:38:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8326760 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Waxau]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#41
CoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCool
]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:38:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8318182 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Waxau]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#40 Originally by: Pesht


To add to what James said, a scorp + mwd + jammers will be 1. More effective 2. More speed and 3. Would have more survivability than a Widow.

Whenever i can, i fly around in my Widow. Not for kills, because the opportunities where the ship is worth risking dont present themselves. Scenario 1. You wait in a belt, for ages, for a target to come along. Boredom tbh. 0.0 is slightly feasible, but tends to be too much organisation. Nubs in low sec possibly, but then again...cruiser pilot can make a cup of tea, have some handy fun, and come back and warp by the time i can get a lock.

The jamming MIGHT be better on a Widow, but you bneed the lows for Sig Dist amps. So you cant armor tank it. And you need mids for ECM. So any tank you do want, either has to be 1-2 low slots, or 2-3 mid slots, otherwise you'll be losing out on the bonuses, and any 'slight' advantage it has over the scorp.

The only TRUE advantage to the Widow over the scorp, is the 'raven' quality it has in damage. But even then, its tankable by most ships, and a cruise Widow doesnt deal an 'uber' amount of dps.

On Sisi, the one 'role' my Widow did play rather well, was harrassing snipers. Fly towards them, get under their optimal, and jam/spam cruise/torps at them. However, that was in a 'fleet' scenario, at which point, in any real situation, you'd be primaried before you even think about uncloaking.

Simply put: The Widow, as with all Black ops, dont have a role. They have no real advantage over their t1 variations, and almost no purpose to having a cloak and such. Especially not with the penalisations of the scan res, lock ranges, and so on. And seeing as how the jump ability has no function in most combat scenarios, theyre left to tasks of logistics. Which are also crap, due to the jump range.

But to answer your post:

Better jamming than a scorp? No. Scorps are free (payout - insurance cost = market value of ship) Therefore, no need to fit a tank, full jammers, full sig dist amps. Far more jamming than a Widow thanks. And more effective in lock time (1 sensor booster + script does NOT make it lock faster than a scorp without a sensor booster)

The dps of 800 is not viable, as you will not be able to get to that range in most fights, nor want to, seeing as how you dont have a tank(will explain in the next point) and your drones will be used to most likely pop hostile drones that are on you.

As for tank, yeah lol. Compariable to other bs? That dont fit tanks perhaps yeah. Lets take the Widow as the example for now, and say it has 4 jammers. 1 sensor booster. 1 warp disruptor. That leaves two slots. 1 xl booster, and 1 hardener. That is not a tank in any stretch of the imagination. Useful for tanking a few drones perhaps. Or maybe the odd Crow. Wont tank a raven, and heck - Wont tank a drake most likely. So lets switch it to Armor. 4 slots. Now, working with your 800 dps setup, that means 2 are gone from BCU, and the other two are gone from SDAs...Awesome tank.

And your last point re: scan res. Check out the numbers. Check out ingame scenarios. Then get back to us. Have a hunch you dont even fly Black Ops tho...

What really REALLY ticks me off, are people that make judgements on ships, in a boost/nerf scenario, where they have no idea, other than they cant fly it, has high prerequisites, and as such, feel they should nerf it, to make it on par with other ships. Heck, if you want to make it on par with other ships, feel free! The truth is, i will fly a scorp every time, over a Widow. Scorp + cloak + lock time calibration rigs (the ones that reduce the time needed to lock after uncloaking) + torps + ECM > Widow with pimped gear. And probs wont set you back more than 50 mil. As aposed to 600 mil (t2 fitted widow)

So please, dont whine and ***** about ships you dont fly, or even fought. The parallel of this, is a doctor doing open heart surgery, and a janitor telling him hes doing his job wrong, and so on. (Scrubs influenced analogy :P)
]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:31:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8318125 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Garia666]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#39
my redeemer with full tech II expanders takes over 3k m3 cargo space
www.garia.net]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:02:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8317583 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Carniflex]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#38 Originally by: James Lyrus

Actually, it's base armour and shields add up to about 23k effective hitpoints. That's OK by cruiser standards, but a Raven trading fire with you will melt you before you get to try again, if you miss a jam.
Perhaps even worse, as you'll be taking 10s or more to even lock it, after decloaking.

Paper torp DPS on this ship looks good, but the only stuff you get to use it against is the stuff (e.g. 450m+ signature ships) that _will_ smash you in the face if you miss a jam, and your 600million ship will vanish in a puff of fail. Or if they remember to bring FoFs, or they deploy drones before you lock. Or if there's more than one.

The Widow's just about usable, IMO in a standoff, fire cruise missiles and jam role. It's not much better at it than a scorp, even before you start comparing pricetags, but the cloak and the jumpdrive _can_ make the difference.

They just ... don't in practice. The number of situations that cloak + sneak up on someone + decloak and mug them actually works, is ... well really very small indeed, and you would _still_ be better off just driving a Raven over them, and applying your boot to their face.


Sad but true. So far only role it fills ok in my opinion is pilot rapid deployment but even that is somewhat iffy in this age of cyno jammers in every system. Plus it has relatively crap range so you need to do usually more than one jump to move your pilots where you need them.

'Pilot rapid deployment' in this case means moving your pilots around in space without hopping thru half the gates in region to 'get there'. Pilots are in nano-covops (to save fuel) and black-ops is max cargo expanded. If you have properly skilled cyno alts on key systems in place you can cover the average region in approx 2 minutes (and 2 jumps). Sometimes you just want to get there fast and know that you can get 'combat ship' (be it then from carrier or from local pos) in your destination.

In practice even that role is somewhat 'once in a blue moon'. Good on paper, but very rare in reality.
]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:41:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8317464 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Lucian Alucard]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#37

]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:42:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8317210 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by James Lyrus]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#36
This is especially the case with 'new' game mechanics.

There is far less whine with a crap ship getting boosted, than a powerful one, getting abused and then getting nerfed.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking?]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:36:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8317209 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by BiggestT]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#35 Edited by: BiggestT on 17/07/2008 10:01:51
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Originally by: SuiJuris
in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.

That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.


The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.

You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.

Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.

The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.

Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob
when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?

Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.


lol the hating is on a high tonighta!

but hes right that ccp shldnt decide to pre-nerf ships (yes they actually admitted to pre-erfing bombs and black-ops LOL) just because the ship may be *gasp* overpowered leading to a different pvp style than blob warfare! *faints*


*edit: quote typo

poudly annoying fc's since 2007]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:01:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8317037 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by James Lyrus]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#34 Originally by: Pesht
Edited by: Pesht on 17/07/2008 08:34:06
Originally by: Waxau
Originally by: Pesht
Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless.


Yeah - 800 dps if its close range with torps, uses all its lows for BCU, with a crap jamming strength, no tank, takes 20 seconds to lock a BS, and oh. That was it. Jump drive/bridge is useless for any form of NORMAL, NON-******ED use.


It's ability to travel quickly under cloak allows it to use close range torps, and it does 800 dps with only 2 BCU(800dps is including drones), allowing for it to fit 2 SDA in the other low slows, giving it easily better jamming strength than a scorp (it gets a BETTER ecm bonus than the scorp if you noticed).

It's armor and shields is less but comparable to other BS, hardly "no tank".

And finally, if you fit a sensor booster with targeting resolution scripts, you lock faster than a scorpion does even with the cloak fitted.

So lets review, the only complaint you said which was valid was- oh, none of them were.


Actually, it's base armour and shields add up to about 23k effective hitpoints. That's OK by cruiser standards, but a Raven trading fire with you will melt you before you get to try again, if you miss a jam.
Perhaps even worse, as you'll be taking 10s or more to even lock it, after decloaking.

Paper torp DPS on this ship looks good, but the only stuff you get to use it against is the stuff (e.g. 450m+ signature ships) that _will_ smash you in the face if you miss a jam, and your 600million ship will vanish in a puff of fail. Or if they remember to bring FoFs, or they deploy drones before you lock. Or if there's more than one.

The Widow's just about usable, IMO in a standoff, fire cruise missiles and jam role. It's not much better at it than a scorp, even before you start comparing pricetags, but the cloak and the jumpdrive _can_ make the difference.

They just ... don't in practice. The number of situations that cloak + sneak up on someone + decloak and mug them actually works, is ... well really very small indeed, and you would _still_ be better off just driving a Raven over them, and applying your boot to their face.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking?]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:01:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8316833 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Pesht]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#33 Edited by: Pesht on 17/07/2008 08:34:06
Originally by: Waxau
Originally by: Pesht
Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless.


Yeah - 800 dps if its close range with torps, uses all its lows for BCU, with a crap jamming strength, no tank, takes 20 seconds to lock a BS, and oh. That was it. Jump drive/bridge is useless for any form of NORMAL, NON-******ED use.


It's ability to travel quickly under cloak allows it to use close range torps, and it does 800 dps with only 2 BCU(800dps is including drones), allowing for it to fit 2 SDA in the other low slows, giving it easily better jamming strength than a scorp (it gets a BETTER ecm bonus than the scorp if you noticed).

It's armor and shields is less but comparable to other BS, hardly "no tank".

And finally, if you fit a sensor booster with targeting resolution scripts, you lock faster than a scorpion does even with the cloak fitted.

So lets review, the only complaint you said which was valid was- oh, none of them were.
]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:33:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8316706 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by SuiJuris]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#32 Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Originally by: SuiJuris
in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.

That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.


Originally by: Bodhisattvas

The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.



Ok stupid reasons lets recap, They can do DPS but only has a super expensive Glass cannon, that because of there shitty scan res takes as previously mentioned 45 SECONDS to lock onto a Cruiser which could of killed them before they locked it.

Man these reasons sure sound stupid...

Originally by: Bodhisattvas


You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.



Yes you would be stupid to do this, no that does not mean there ok. So what else can you do with them? Oh well they suck for Ewar due to shitty lock times and there being better ships for the job, and there shitty at ganking plus to expensive, oh and there whole jump bridge shit is worthless because of the crappy range. I guess that leaves shiny hanger ornement.

Originally by: Bodhisattvas


Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.

The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.



LMFAO, lets use our low slots on cargo expanders because moving like a snail and having no tank on a ship thats over half a bil easily is a great idea...

Originally by: Bodhisattvas


Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob

when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?

Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.


Garbage

Also on a side note the Pilgrim is better for the cov ops hauler role that someone mentioned.
]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:20:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8315160 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by SuiJuris]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=2#31 Originally by: Dr Fighter
the best use for them as they are, is a surprise sniper and even then only in certain and limited situation.

the Sin and redeemer able sit at 50kms and unleash around 600-800 dps (guns + sentry drone IIs) on a bs seconds after decloaking


You mean about 50 seconds after decloaking due to there shitty sensors.
]]> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:10:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8315159 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Chalice Malice]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#30 Originally by: Rajere
Quote:
Originally by: Jita Dancer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Killing command ship which is cap-depenant using all out neut ship is nothing to be too prout of tbh. Any other neut ship (even neut rokh with torps...) would do the same.

http://storietime.com/gsy/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=20620
suicide cyno-cheetah, killed a Nighthawk and an Astarte at the same time....

And yeah, gets him out of his Moa. Wait he kills ravens with his Moa.


We killed the raven... humpf =(

Tyf
]]> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:57:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8314143 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Dr Fighter]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#29
the Sin and redeemer able sit at 50kms and unleash around 600-800 dps (guns + sentry drone IIs) on a bs seconds after decloaking
]]> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:04:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8309495 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Waxau]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#28 Originally by: Pesht
Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless.


Yeah - 800 dps if its close range with torps, uses all its lows for BCU, with a crap jamming strength, no tank, takes 20 seconds to lock a BS, and oh. That was it. Jump drive/bridge is useless for any form of NORMAL, NON-******ED use.
]]> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:55:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8309494 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Pesht]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#27 ]]> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:49:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8308722 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Rajere]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#26 Quote:
Originally by: Jita Dancer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Killing command ship which is cap-depenant using all out neut ship is nothing to be too prout of tbh. Any other neut ship (even neut rokh with torps...) would do the same.

http://storietime.com/gsy/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=20620
suicide cyno-cheetah, killed a Nighthawk and an Astarte at the same time....

And yeah, gets him out of his Moa. Wait he kills ravens with his Moa.

NOTR
How to Fail at Eve
]]> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:54:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8299663 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Crellion]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#25 Originally by: Jita Dancer
Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

Go to Syndicate and pick a scrap with him if you think they are weak - he gives free lessons in losing your ship... Confused


If they got SK to leave his Eagle they must be good :D
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.]]> Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:52:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8293248 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by cianide pro]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#24 Originally by: White Ronin


The ONLY one of them that has a chance of being worth damn is the Caldari cause of its ecm bonus. The rest lack tank, lack targeting ability and have reduced firepower.

.


Ecm needs fast locks to be effective so its better to use a falcon as its better at this job and also cheaper. The range of the widows jamming aint that good either here also a falcon does the job better.

I think the black ops fail complete in their role due the lousy lock time with cloak fitted and the fuel issues already mentioned many times.

There is nothing other ships ingame cant do better and cheaper so this class is a failure sofar.
]]> Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:19:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8292849 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Deva Blackfire]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#23 Originally by: Jita Dancer
Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.


Killing command ship which is cap-depenant using all out neut ship is nothing to be too prout of tbh. Any other neut ship (even neut rokh with torps...) would do the same.
]]> Mon, 14 Jul 2008 07:56:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8292794 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by White Ronin]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#22 Originally by: Bodhisattvas


The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.

You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.

Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.

The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.

Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob
when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?

Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.

WTF are you smoking?
Its not the grid thats the core problem. Not the tank or nothing.
The first and foremost problem with these ships is their use in combat in A PVP GAME!
A scan resolution that is cut to 60% or even 79% and a "no delay on targeting due to sensor calibration" is worthless crap since it takes you about 45 seconds to target cruisers. Anyone still around after you actually achieve lock WANTS to be there.

Its only use after the addition of a expanded fuel bay or whatever will be as the most expensive covert hauler in the universe. THats the "niche" you are talking about.

And what is this crap about people who are pro-blob being the whiners. The ship has no functionality solo except in rare situations where you catch a weak ship alone and far away from help. Its only chance to not go BOOM is to be part of the blob and you are talking about expanding its fuel bay or reduce consumption to make this its viable role.
Trust me. I am solo and I would LOVE to be able to take that baby for a spin.
But at an uninsured half billion before fittings I would do better to buy lint and wait for the fun to role in.
Watch that barrel it has monkeys... yeah.

The ONLY one of them that has a chance of being worth damn is the Caldari cause of its ecm bonus. The rest lack tank, lack targeting ability and have reduced firepower.

Please, blah blah all you want they are a PVP ship in a PVP game that lack the ability to realistically engage in PVP.
Your "ideas" of simple fixes are simply your need for a covert hauler and nothing more.
---------------------------------------------
"There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. "]]> Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:55:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8288398 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Jita Dancer]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#21 Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

Go to Syndicate and pick a scrap with him if you think they are weak - he gives free lessons in losing your ship... Confused

]]> Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:10:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8288146 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Bodhisattvas]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#20 Originally by: SuiJuris
in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.

That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.



The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.

You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.

Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.

The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.

Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob
when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?

Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.
]]> Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:44:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8287920 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by dichroic]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#19 Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:48:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8286804 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by PirceHat]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#18 ]]> Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:53:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8284900 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Sydian Rie]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#17 Edited by: Sydian Rie on 13/07/2008 02:52:50
I've had my sin since the second week they came out and have only used it once to test the covert jump bridge, since then....it's been parked. Can't really find a good use for it, at least a good use that will ACTUALLY be utilized. When was the last time you could scrounge up 60 cov ops or sb to go gank a system ONLY 5ly away.

My Kronos has been used a LOT on the other hand, both for ratting and some pvp/POS sieging.
]]> Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:49:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8284899 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Celestra Doxaila]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#16 Edited by: Celestra Doxaila on 12/07/2008 22:35:00
Blah nevermind, I need to actually read before I reply. :)
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:34:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8283711 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Lord WarATron]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#15 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 12/07/2008 17:51:00
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
When CCP will allow deep space transports to use the black ops jump gate as well, then these ships will become useful.

Until then, no.


???

If it could portal all sup capital ships it would make sense. Portaling Deep Space transport for pvp is not exactly the solution. E.G If people can portal hics etc and then jump to the cyno afterwards. This assumes fual usage is fixed to a sensible amount.

Tell then, blackops is about as useful as Super Mario
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--

Billion Isk Mission
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:50:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8282263 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Word]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#14 Edited by: Word on 12/07/2008 17:21:22
Originally by: Balla Gak
Anyone want to sell me there sin?
I tend to believe these ships are awesome at help and response times to troubled team mates.
That and to a low sec pirate roaming and doing the whole 'warp cloak' trick should make them quite appealing tbh.

Yes, I do that with most my ships, T2 transport, cruisers, BS, Mammoth hauler, it's a great tactic and with practice, you can get really good at it. And of course, with a ship that can get to warp align speed while cloaked makes it sooo easy, you don't need to do the MWD toggle thing.

A couple problems a least and already mentioned, mobile warp disrupt, Heavy Interdictor(sp?) Your only chance is to MWD out of range then pray that the align time is not excessive.(barring any 40km webbers bad luck)

I (me my alt and I) got a few Panther BPCs, started hauling Capital Warp Drives, started training up, then I find out that the damn thing needs a gang just to jump. To me that's a rip-off.

CCP scam to get people training up capital jump drive skills to suck players into going for support intensive Capital ship roles.
Reason is, the less you can do solo, the more people you have to gang with just to accomplish the basic role.

I'll still build the Panthers eventually, but switched training to Marauders for now. Hopefully the Black ops will be fixed in a couple years, for example, the time it took to fix the Stealth Bomber, ( I love that ship now, lots of fun.)


]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:20:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8282155 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Balla Gak]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#13
I tend to believe these ships are awesome at help and response times to troubled team mates.

That and to a low sec pirate roaming and doing the whole 'warp cloak' trick should make them quite appealing tbh.
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:11:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8281845 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Bartholomeus Crane]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#12
Until then, no.
--
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:17:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8281317 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Anubis Xian]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#11
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.

I'm the Juggernaut, *****!]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:44:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8280231 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by EmperorPirk]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#10
just look at them, they have less dps, less hp, a massive recharge time on shields (around 3500 with BC hp amount... WTF!?), targeting penaulty from cloak, really short jump range, no room for fuel if you wanna pack some ammo in there too, and the price is just... meh.

atleast they can cloak and go quite fast while doing so, and they can turn really good too.

we can just hope for a slight boost or some more "usefull" role for them soon.
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:08:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8280146 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by James Lyrus]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#9
Sadly suboptimal, and as much because they lack much they can actually do well enough, to make them worth the opportunity cost. The Widow in particular, can do about 3 things, badly. But all round medicore does not a good ship make.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking?]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:06:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8280145 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Derek Sigres]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#8 Originally by: achoura
Suppose it's ironic, but they make better ratters than pvpers , actually marauders make better pvp ships that b-ops Laughing


I don't know if that's ironic. . .

But come on - if they DIDN'T cost 750 million isk they might be more common. How many people really want to take that under gunned under tanked isk into battle?

If they don't fix the damn things then I'd be satisfied with a massive price cut (this is a solution for Afrigs too).
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:57:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8280111 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by achoura]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#7
***The EVE servers and their patches***
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:54:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8280056 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by goodby4u]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#6 Edited by: goodby4u on 12/07/2008 08:55:48
Theres a reason you dont see people using them.

THEY ARE BLACK OPS!Very Happy
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:55:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8279805 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Wideen]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#5 Originally by: Franga
People are still using them, however. Just rare. Someone in my corp popped a faction fitted one the other day. Jerk got 1500 points for it even though there were about 8 people on the mail.


carrier points!! Very Happy

]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:52:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8279804 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Franga]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#4
Originally by: Rachel Vend
... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:23:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8278290 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Apoctasy]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#3 Originally by: SuiJuris
in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.

That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.


Pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Black Ops needs some serious changes to be viable.
----
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:20:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8278289 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by SuiJuris]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597&page=1#2
That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:46:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8278111 <![CDATA[Is anyone using Black Ops ships? - by Mors Magne]]> http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=820597
Is it worth skilling up to use them?
]]> Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:43:00 +0000 eve-search/guid/8278110