Excuse me to say so, Mr Rhiannon, but what you say does not make the smallest sense to me. According to you, it is ok for someone to use a new trick they elaborated by being clever, but it is not when it starts to get used by everyone?

If someone invents (or puts the attention to) implementing some specific new tactic, yes, I feel it is fair they benefit from it for a few races (because it was clever, or it was effort and they were co-ordinated enough), but if it is league-breaking in general use, I also feel it is fair enough to change the rules to exclude it later. I also think this fairness holds in cases where the people using the tactic notify the league organizer about it and confirm that it is allowed - the situation is different if they do it in secret also from the organizer.

I believe in this case it is confirmed that the organizer was aware of the tactic being used. The reason that lead to the end of the league was not at all, as you implied, that some people wanted to follow the spirit and some the letter of the rules. I believe the reason was the drama that followed, and people's (on both side of the debate) abysmal behavior against the organizer about the calls she made. As a reward for what she did for us, she got people throwing tantrums if she does not do it the way they want.

That you did not have the co-ordination to organize for the scouting, nor the daring to ask the organizer yourself if that is allowed, is your loss. It does not make you a better person or a fairer racer. Trying to imply that people who did were somehow less "in the spirit of the league" is exactly the kind of holier-than-thou drama that I believe broke the whole thing.

But as I said - been there, done that, myself too. (In the covert co-operation between teams incident, for those who remember that far back.) I wish I hadn't, but it's quite too late for that now. Setting up a league is a hell of a job. Getting the kind of crap for it that the organizer has been getting for years... well, you get the picture. Serves us right to have it cancelled, to be honest.

Else

Note though that the team did not get any advantage that another team could not have gotten. You even yourself say that the thought occurred to you too. You could have very well done the same thing they did; you chose not to. Had you chosen otherwise, either you would have gotten the same advantage, or the organizer would have decided then to forbid it for everyone. As the end result, the other team would not have gained on you.

This is a situation very different from getting an advantage that you had no possibility to gain.

Wrong. Several teams were made up of one or two people only. It was physically impossible for such small teams to scout an entire region in the time between the setup of the track and the race itself. It was not even a matter of choosing for them.

I will try to put it again differently : considering that most of the pilots were strongly opposed to that kind of tactics - they considered for most that racing was about racing, and not scouting a track that was supposed to stay hidden in the first place (I am merely stating what they thought here) - it was very unwise for the organizer to allow the use of such tactics nevertheless with the knowledge of that situation. I would say this was not far from being suicidal, actually. And it apparently was.

The wisest choice would have been not to allow it. If the team that used that trick asked beforehand, it was to stick to the rules, so they would have accepted that decision.

Anyhow, it sounds like the general tone in here is "We should have something nice, as long as someone else will do the hard work that it requires."

1) There is nothing in the league that forces small teams to remain small, instead of allying with each other. Again, being too small to effectively co-operate was your choice (and mine, but still, a choice). Co-operation has always been a part of the league - e.g. using team-mates as warp-in to cover for botches was pretty much essential.
2) Again, I do not think the league died to the call the organizer made. People were willing to continue racing after it, after all. It is not like there were a major pilot walk-out or anything. It died to the organizer quitting, in my understanding due to the drama and complaints of "totally destroying the spirit" being the reward they got for the hard work they put into the league. I think that was a shame - but generally, judging from the drama I saw and still see, quite deserved.

Anyhow, it sounds like the general tone in here is "We should have something nice, as long as someone else will do the hard work that it requires."

I find the concept of racing interesting and was ready to organize a new one. At least, a part of it. I am terrible at finding sponsors and all the trade arrangements that have to be made. I do not really care if I am part of a race or not.

But I guess nobody proved really interested, or maybe I was just terrible at motivating people.

I also thought of subwarp racing which solves a lot of issues, but seeing the explanatory videos shown above, I have to admit that I do not find it really interesting, extremely simplistic, and very hazardous.

Wrong. Several teams were made up of one or two people only. It was physically impossible for such small teams to scout an entire region in the time between the setup of the track and the race itself. It was not even a matter of choosing for them.

Why do you need me to tell you if it is worth it? It's a lot of work, but racers would appreciate. If you do something racers do not like - and eventually you will - you will get some drama. When races run smoothly, you get a lot of glory. How can I decide how you should weigh those against each other?

Obviously Gyra did not think it was worth it for her, since she quit. Obviously I do not think it is worth it for me, or I'd be doing it myself.

What the hell does that have to do with whether it is worth it for you? That's something you have to decide for yourself.

Each his/her opinion, but I suggest you try one first. Sure, the concept is luckily very simple, but trying to succesfully maneuver through a hairpin with as much speed as possible is quite a challenge. And I don't really see how it is very hazardous. One of the reasons I did not compete in the NERA was that I did not want to risk the lives of my crew, which seems more of a risk on the low-sec races of the NERA than the hi-sec races of the SRV.

Of course, those in military occupations will probably not find the races as exciting as your usual line of work, but for peaceful industrialists like me it is quite the adrenaline rush.

Sory to steal a jump on you Lyn, and you Benilopax, but I will be re-starting the league.

On the three occasions that I scouted the track, the first time I had assistance from two pilots. The other two times, I did it entirely alone.

Furthermore, a rational person would conclude that the smaller teams or independent pilots have a greater incentive to put in the time required to offset their disadvantages against larger teams.

Your major premise is demonstrably false.

A single video is definitly not exhaustive and if you have other materials to offer I would really like to see them. Maybe if I find the time to try it myself, I will, too. Do not hesitate to make me know when you have a track at your disposal, or whatever.

What I found hazardous was not the system in itself, but more how to know if a racer has passed every waypoint correctly, especially if they all race together. I believe it has to be quite intensive for all your judges/observers.

Hi Benilopax,



Unless this can be adequately addressed, there's no reason to proceed. I'm also not sure why a self-proclaimed "fat and rich" mogul should be seeking donations at this early stage.

However, if you can work it out, it'd be nice to talk sometime. I'd personally enjoy watching the races, too.

I believe I have read enough of this.

For the record, I was one of the pilots that used the tactic Lyn and other have talked about. I was not happy when it was declared un-usable, and I probably contributed to the "drama" that ended the league. Not that it needed much help. At one point I did care about that, but I find that I do not any more.

Sory to steal a jump on you Lyn, and you Benilopax, but I will be re-starting the league. Gyra is free to contact me at any time is she does not wish me to use the NERA name, but I will be following the same general format, racing between waypoints placed in different low sec systems. If some covert ops pilots wish to join me, I might even film it.

Unfortunately, I will be planet bound on and off over the next several months, so the league will not be restarting soon. At the moment, I believe I will be ready to start in late July. Until then, I bid you fair well and stop diverting this thread. Please start another if you wish to discuss this further. I will be watching.

Greetings fellow speed enthusiasts!

As you may know there was once a series of races held across the galaxy that brought in billions of isk in prize money. Sadly the races stopped and there was an abortive attempt to re-ignite the concept of pitting pilots against each other on the track rather than in the arena.

I personally held a few race meetings independently of the regular season which were popular events. I have since become fat and rich and like any good mogul I wish to sink my hard earned isk into prize money to attempt to relaunch the racing season once more.

My proposal is as follows, if I can secure the support of racing teams, pilots, sponsors, and stewards I will hold a racing meet during the Alliance tournament with an initial prize fund of 5 Billion isk, not as a season grand prize but just for the race itself, I want to make the fatest pilots rich men and I would like donations to be made to the prize fund to be held by a trustworthy third party (Chribba) so that we can get a prize fund in excess of 10 billion.

I would like commentary, I would like EVE radio coverage, I would like EVETV coverage, but I can only do this if there are racers, staff and of course fans willing to bet on the outcome so that we can sell this event as one worthy of merit.

I will gladly accept help and support and pledges to get this sport back onto the space-lanes!

What say you New Eden?

Benilopax

If you need someone to commentate, I can connect you with a few people.

((OOC: I can provide editing services if you have video available, including commentary and stuff.))

Do not hesitate to make me know when you have a track at your disposal, or whatever.