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Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
264
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 21:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Greetings fellow speed enthusiasts!
As you may know there was once a series of races held across the galaxy that brought in billions of isk in prize money. Sadly the races stopped and there was an abortive attempt to re-ignite the concept of pitting pilots against each other on the track rather than in the arena.
I personally held a few race meetings independently of the regular season which were popular events. I have since become fat and rich and like any good mogul I wish to sink my hard earned isk into prize money to attempt to relaunch the racing season once more.
My proposal is as follows, if I can secure the support of racing teams, pilots, sponsors, and stewards I will hold a racing meet during the Alliance tournament with an initial prize fund of 5 Billion isk, not as a season grand prize but just for the race itself, I want to make the fatest pilots rich men and I would like donations to be made to the prize fund to be held by a trustworthy third party (Chribba) so that we can get a prize fund in excess of 10 billion.
I would like commentary, I would like EVE radio coverage, I would like EVETV coverage, but I can only do this if there are racers, staff and of course fans willing to bet on the outcome so that we can sell this event as one worthy of merit.
I will gladly accept help and support and pledges to get this sport back onto the space-lanes!
What say you New Eden?
Benilopax |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
240
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 21:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Benilopax wrote:Greetings fellow speed enthusiasts!
As you may know there was once a series of races held across the galaxy that brought in billions of isk in prize money. Sadly the races stopped and there was an abortive attempt to re-ignite the concept of pitting pilots against each other on the track rather than in the arena.
I personally held a few race meetings independently of the regular season which were popular events. I have since become fat and rich and like any good mogul I wish to sink my hard earned isk into prize money to attempt to relaunch the racing season once more.
My proposal is as follows, if I can secure the support of racing teams, pilots, sponsors, and stewards I will hold a racing meet during the Alliance tournament with an initial prize fund of 5 Billion isk, not as a season grand prize but just for the race itself, I want to make the fatest pilots rich men and I would like donations to be made to the prize fund to be held by a trustworthy third party (Chribba) so that we can get a prize fund in excess of 10 billion.
I would like commentary, I would like EVE radio coverage, I would like EVETV coverage, but I can only do this if there are racers, staff and of course fans willing to bet on the outcome so that we can sell this event as one worthy of merit.
I will gladly accept help and support and pledges to get this sport back onto the space-lanes!
What say you New Eden?
Benilopax
You'll probably find no shortage of people willing to invest in individual teams to compete for the money but I doubt you'll have terribly many people waiting in line to hand you billions to give away as prizes.
Also a suggestion, scheduling any other capsuleer event -during- the alliance tournament seems a bit of an odd choice.
But a revamped racing league would be fantastic, best of luck! |
Koronakesh
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 21:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
You'd do better to simply wire the isk to Takashi Kurosawa if you're only looking to pay the fastest racer of a single race. SASPR Amir al-Mu'minin and Eve Online Hold'Em Management |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
264
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 22:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Benilopax wrote:Greetings fellow speed enthusiasts!
As you may know there was once a series of races held across the galaxy that brought in billions of isk in prize money. Sadly the races stopped and there was an abortive attempt to re-ignite the concept of pitting pilots against each other on the track rather than in the arena.
I personally held a few race meetings independently of the regular season which were popular events. I have since become fat and rich and like any good mogul I wish to sink my hard earned isk into prize money to attempt to relaunch the racing season once more.
My proposal is as follows, if I can secure the support of racing teams, pilots, sponsors, and stewards I will hold a racing meet during the Alliance tournament with an initial prize fund of 5 Billion isk, not as a season grand prize but just for the race itself, I want to make the fatest pilots rich men and I would like donations to be made to the prize fund to be held by a trustworthy third party (Chribba) so that we can get a prize fund in excess of 10 billion.
I would like commentary, I would like EVE radio coverage, I would like EVETV coverage, but I can only do this if there are racers, staff and of course fans willing to bet on the outcome so that we can sell this event as one worthy of merit.
I will gladly accept help and support and pledges to get this sport back onto the space-lanes!
What say you New Eden?
Benilopax You'll probably find no shortage of people willing to invest in individual teams to compete for the money but I doubt you'll have terribly many people waiting in line to hand you billions to give away as prizes. Also a suggestion, scheduling any other capsuleer event -during- the alliance tournament seems a bit of an odd choice. But a revamped racing league would be fantastic, best of luck!
Holding this one off event during the tournament is about gaining maximum publicity for the concept of racing, it's also when EVETV will be on air to show footage or a live feed of the event for maximum coverage, it also adds to the party atmosphere of the weekend.
In regards to sponsorship for the prize fund as I said I will arrange it through a trustworthy third party I don't want people sending me isk directly.
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Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
264
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 22:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Koronakesh wrote:You'd do better to simply wire the isk to Takashi Kurosawa if you're only looking to pay the fastest racer of a single race.
I'll be looking into ways of leveling the playing field/making it more competitive, I'm not talking about just one race, but just one event. |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
240
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 22:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
It's never a good idea to compete directly with what is already the biggest show in town. Destined to be ignored if aired at the same time, as I'm sure a great many of your potential competitors will be busy fighting in the tournament.
Also you haven't really answered the question, what is the incentive for people to just give away their money to your racing prize fund? These sorts of things usually work better if there is a chance of financial gain involved.
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Nicoletta Mithra
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
81
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 22:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Whether Takashi used to win in the last one and a sixth season on his own merit or by merit of debatable strategies not developed or made possible by himself is something we will never know for sure. There surely is a taint on his reputation, though. So I wouldn't be that loud about him being "the fastest racer". |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
264
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 22:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:It's never a good idea to compete directly with what is already the biggest show in town. Destined to be ignored if aired at the same time, as I'm sure a great many of your potential competitors will be busy fighting in the tournament.
Also you haven't really answered the question, what is the incentive for people to just give away their money to your racing prize fund? These sorts of things usually work better if there is a chance of financial gain involved.
There are lots of breaks and gaps in the tourney that could be filled with recorded footage or time could be allowed through negotiation with the organisers to cover the event alongside the fights. Where thousands of pilots will be watching.
I am working on incentives such as advertising for corps, and other perks. At the moment pledges of small donations from people who just want to see eve racing again would be welcome. |
Graelyn
Knights of Kador Aegis Militia
234
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 23:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Whether Takashi used to win in the last 1 1/6 seasons on his own merit or by merit of debatable strategies not developed or made possible by himself is something we will never know for sure. There surely is a taint on his reputation, though. So I wouldn't be that loud about him being "the fastest racer".
He is The Fastest Racer. + Cardinal Graelyn + Owner/Operator, "The Summit" YR113 Amarr Loyalist of the Year
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Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
240
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 23:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Whether Takashi used to win in the last 1 1/6 seasons on his own merit or by merit of debatable strategies not developed or made possible by himself is something we will never know for sure. There surely is a taint on his reputation, though. So I wouldn't be that loud about him being "the fastest racer".
Can't argue with success |
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
258
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 00:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
I find it interesting. I however still have doubts on what will be done to prevent the unfortunate last events that basically lead the NERA to its end ? |
Norrin Ellis
Venture Racing
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 00:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Given that some former league opponents have made a career change to beating dead horses, allow me to make it crystal clear that I have absolutely no inclination to participate in any new event. I'm very busy twirling my mustache and murdering kittens and such, so you can all reunite your little clique at your leisure without worry.
Best of luck to you, Benilopax. I would echo sentiments already rendered, however, that hosting an event during the alliance tournament will likely not have the effect you intend. CEO, Venture Racing Senior Banker, EVE Online Hold'Em |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 14:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
zoom zoom |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
88
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 14:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
This all sounds so very interesting, however I must echo Silas' points. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
264
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 22:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Halete wrote:This all sounds so very interesting, however I must echo Silas' points.
If people really think that coverage on EVETV won't do anything to gain interest in racing then I'll hold it at a different time tho you can guarantee you won't get much coverage beyond ISD and maybe EvERadio I firmly believe that some kind of video record of these events are what's needed to keep it alive. |
ValentinaDLM
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
485
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
If you could be sure that the EVETV people would cover it, then it would be great but, without any real conclusive show of support from them, you would have to expect just to be overshadowed by people senselessly killing each other, which is the normal content EVETV produces.... Have you even considered the difficulty in the getting the camera bots to get a clear overview of the race?
It is a good idea, but you need solid promises from promoters before you can really expect to go up against televised murder. Also, you are going to have to have some incentives, if you could get coverage from someone like EVETV or another organization that has the capability to have a feed reach lots of capsuleers then maybe simple advertisement would be enough, but outside of that you are going to need to put forth more than that. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
259
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 12:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Benilopax wrote:Halete wrote:This all sounds so very interesting, however I must echo Silas' points. If people really think that coverage on EVETV won't do anything to gain interest in racing then I'll hold it at a different time tho you can guarantee you won't get much coverage beyond ISD and maybe EvERadio I firmly believe that some kind of video record of these events are what's needed to keep it alive.
Too much advertising for that kind of events has always been a way to dramatically kill them in the process. What has always made the racing league successful was its relatively small scale. With that kind of advertising, it might be good to expect to see an invasion of shady pilots willing to jeopardise the whole process for the sake of doing it because it was on EveTV, or just more generally trying to disrupt the race by any mean you will have difficulties to prevent. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
76
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 15:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
There is only one racing league I care(d) about: the Sub-warp Racing Venture. Not only is this format more pure racing, it is also more suitable for spectators and broadcasting (as it takes place on an actual track only a couple hundred kilometers in lenght), a couple races were in fact broadcast live.
Unfortunatly, the organizer has stopped being a part of the capsuleer community and the league is currently dead. But if someone were to reanimate that format of racing, it might just seduce me to get back in my pod and racing ships again, and maybe even help out as long as it does not prevent me from racing myself.
Peace,
-Ch+¬ Biko captain of racing team 10-segrity |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
265
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 16:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:There is only one racing league I care(d) about: the Sub-warp Racing Venture. Not only is this format more pure racing, it is also more suitable for spectators and broadcasting (as it takes place on an actual track only a couple hundred kilometers in lenght), a couple races were in fact broadcast live.
Unfortunatly, the organizer has stopped being a part of the capsuleer community and the league is currently dead. But if someone were to reanimate that format of racing, it might just seduce me to get back in my pod and racing ships again, and maybe even help out as long as it does not prevent me from racing myself.
Peace,
-Ch+¬ Biko captain of racing team 10-segrity
I am definitely in favour of sub warp racing. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
79
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 18:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Benilopax wrote:I am definitely in favour of sub warp racing.
Also, as people quickly learn in subwarp racing: fastest Gëá best. If subwarp racing returns, I will challenge Takashi Kurosawa to compete against me in at least one race. I could use a skilled opponent.
|
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
279
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 20:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Whatever you do, make sure you run a couple of races before the main, publicized event. Otherwise, you will probably run into some embarrassing organizational problems and the whole thing will be a mess. It is much, much more tricky to organize a race than most people imagine. You do not only need the know-how; you also need routine.
Elsebeth Rhiannon formely of Venture Racing |
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 07:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sub-warp racing...best racing. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
279
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
I find subwarp races rather boring myself. To fly, that is - they are fun to watch.
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Braka Hareka
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 15:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
I echo the points made above, but if I may direct you towards looking here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=102496&find=unread
Not wanting to toot my own horn but perhaps you could take some of my idea's? "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths, a statistic"
Joseph Stalin |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
265
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 13:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Very interesting ideas, a few problems with some of them, as having people join a corp closes off the race to a lot of people and the kind of prize money you are talking about would be difficult to gather with the current popularity of the concept.
I keep trying however, in talks with a few people about making it happen.
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Braka Hareka
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Keep trying sir, I only put forward the points as speculation. Message me in game, I would be more than willing to help. "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths, a statistic"
Joseph Stalin |
Niraia
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
99
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 12:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hi Benilopax,
Lyn Farel wrote:I find it interesting. I however still have doubts on what will be done to prevent the unfortunate last events that basically lead the NERA to its end ?
Unless this can be adequately addressed, there's no reason to proceed. I'm also not sure why a self-proclaimed "fat and rich" mogul should be seeking donations at this early stage.
However, if you can work it out, it'd be nice to talk sometime. I'd personally enjoy watching the races, too.
Niraia EVE Online Hold'Em Co-Owner and Chief of Security |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 16:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
What events lead the NERA to it's end? I've read that the organizer didn't enjoy organizing anymore, but I've not really understood what "unfortunate events" occurred before that. |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
131
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 17:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
The explanation I was given when I last asked was that some parties believed in following the letter and spirit of the rules, but that certain other parties didn't care as much about the spirit of the rules.
It didn't go over very well when the first group found out about the second group violating the spirit of those rules. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
265
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 17:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
One of the teams choosed to probe out the entire planned region to find the waypoint containers and bookmark them before several races. A few ideas tried after that outrage to propose a starting "check" container at 0km (out of warp) in addition to the other containers to prevent that tactic to give a decisive advantage to the teams using it, but was rejected by a lot of pilots that wanted more "uncertainty" on the position of the containers on the track.
Another issue was also that every class of ship was running together, making the frigate and especially the assault ship classes more tied to their interceptor wingmates, providing them warp in points (preventing them to run all the way to each container), thus creating what was called "warp trains" where AFs and frigates were merely warping each time to the interceptors of their respective teams. Some pilots liked that and found the concept of getting a good warp train quite hard and interesting, while others found that it was not anymore about flying and racing by yourself, but just warping to their friends that made all the work. |
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
282
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 19:32:00 -
[31] - Quote
From my point of view, it goes like this:
In the history of the league, several times some team came up with a clever tactic that others had not thought of. In many cases, they told about it to Gyra in secret, who then ruled that they can use the tactic since it is not against the current rules. When the tactic became generally known, however, she sometimes made a rule forbidding it, because everyone using it would break the league.
Whenever this happened, the people who did not benefit from the clever tactic felt that the other side had "broken the spirit of the league" and got really upset, being very nasty both to other teams who then were nasty back, and towards the league organizers.
This happened one time too many, and the organizer finally got enough of it.
Let me clarify that I have been on both sides of that over the course of my racing career. There was a time when I was the one using the clever trick and did not see what the **** the people flaming us where about. I got very indignant and attributed it only on them being upset that we won a lot. There was also a time when another team pulled a clever trick against mine, and I have to say I am not at all proud of how I behaved then, either.
In this latest I was neutral: I felt it was a clever trick and it was ok that the team inventing it got the benefit of going through all the trouble; I also felt that forbidding it when it became general knowledge was a good idea because it being in general use would have broken the league. I also have to say I get the organizer's decision to quit: the best racers are people who care about winning (no matter what we claim about sportsmanship and stuff), and they get really heated if they feel they have been "cheated". That sort of drama is usually not on anyone's list of Top 10 Favorite Things To Do On Their Freetime. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
265
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 19:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
Excuse me to say so, Mr Rhiannon, but what you say does not make the smallest sense to me. According to you, it is ok for someone to use a new trick they elaborated by being clever, but it is not when it starts to get used by everyone ?
Also, there was nothing innovative at all in that specific tactic. I myself thought about it several times as soon as I was running my third race. It was just not possible to do it considering the time and the means involved for a single person, but that would have been definitly doable for a team with more generous numbers. It was pretty obvious that the track could be scouted before the races. It was not a matter of innovative tactics here, it was a matter of daring. |
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 05:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sounds like a racing concept that also....hm, favors such tactical trouble ? At least it is hard to referee.
Subwarp racing never saw such discussions. I enjoyed the concept : instructional video |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
282
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 14:21:00 -
[34] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Excuse me to say so, Mr Rhiannon, but what you say does not make the smallest sense to me. According to you, it is ok for someone to use a new trick they elaborated by being clever, but it is not when it starts to get used by everyone? If someone invents (or puts the attention to) implementing some specific new tactic, yes, I feel it is fair they benefit from it for a few races (because it was clever, or it was effort and they were co-ordinated enough), but if it is league-breaking in general use, I also feel it is fair enough to change the rules to exclude it later. I also think this fairness holds in cases where the people using the tactic notify the league organizer about it and confirm that it is allowed - the situation is different if they do it in secret also from the organizer.
I believe in this case it is confirmed that the organizer was aware of the tactic being used. The reason that lead to the end of the league was not at all, as you implied, that some people wanted to follow the spirit and some the letter of the rules. I believe the reason was the drama that followed, and people's (on both side of the debate) abysmal behavior against the organizer about the calls she made. As a reward for what she did for us, she got people throwing tantrums if she does not do it the way they want.
That you did not have the co-ordination to organize for the scouting, nor the daring to ask the organizer yourself if that is allowed, is your loss. It does not make you a better person or a fairer racer. Trying to imply that people who did were somehow less "in the spirit of the league" is exactly the kind of holier-than-thou drama that I believe broke the whole thing.
But as I said - been there, done that, myself too. (In the covert co-operation between teams incident, for those who remember that far back.) I wish I hadn't, but it's quite too late for that now. Setting up a league is a hell of a job. Getting the kind of crap for it that the organizer has been getting for years... well, you get the picture. Serves us right to have it cancelled, to be honest.
Else |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
266
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 17:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: If someone invents (or puts the attention to) implementing some specific new tactic, yes, I feel it is fair they benefit from it for a few races (because it was clever, or it was effort and they were co-ordinated enough), but if it is league-breaking in general use, I also feel it is fair enough to change the rules to exclude it later. I also think this fairness holds in cases where the people using the tactic notify the league organizer about it and confirm that it is allowed - the situation is different if they do it in secret also from the organizer.
I believe in this case it is confirmed that the organizer was aware of the tactic being used. The reason that lead to the end of the league was not at all, as you implied, that some people wanted to follow the spirit and some the letter of the rules. I believe the reason was the drama that followed, and people's (on both side of the debate) abysmal behavior against the organizer about the calls she made. As a reward for what she did for us, she got people throwing tantrums if she does not do it the way they want.
That you did not have the co-ordination to organize for the scouting, nor the daring to ask the organizer yourself if that is allowed, is your loss. It does not make you a better person or a fairer racer. Trying to imply that people who did were somehow less "in the spirit of the league" is exactly the kind of holier-than-thou drama that I believe broke the whole thing.
But as I said - been there, done that, myself too. (In the covert co-operation between teams incident, for those who remember that far back.) I wish I hadn't, but it's quite too late for that now. Setting up a league is a hell of a job. Getting the kind of crap for it that the organizer has been getting for years... well, you get the picture. Serves us right to have it cancelled, to be honest.
Else
That logics still eludes me. I was well aware that the organizer did not forbid the use of that tactic, where it made its use perfectly legitimate. What I am saying is that how this choice to firstly allow it has been made is beyond me. As much as I have not been implicated in the ensuing drama that followed, I still think that this was a poor choice, and very bad form. Considering the incredible advantage it gave to the team using the tactic, and the impossibility for all but the very large teams to implement it at each race, it is still beyond me how it continued in secret. Also, this very tactic signed the obvious end of the purpose of anchoring waypoint containers elsewhere than on the warp-in point, except being a reward for people with the means to shortcut it. And a reward giving such an advantage is not a reward, it is a game breaker. So, according to you it might be better to forbid the use of a tactic only when it starts to break the league. Well, it broke it as soon as it was put in application here. It hsould have been forbidden since the day it was discovered.
You also seem to believe that I feel personnaly offended by all of this, which is totally silly. You will not find any records of me saying otherwise or taking part in the whole outrage, because there is none. I am merely saying that I find the whole reasoning absurd.
And I never implied that some people wanted to follow the spirit and some the letter of the rules. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
282
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 19:33:00 -
[36] - Quote
I am afraid I cannot explain my logic any better than I already did, so if you do not get if I guess we have to settle for simply disagreeing on the subject.
Note though that the team did not get any advantage that another team could not have gotten. You even yourself say that the thought occurred to you too. You could have very well done the same thing they did; you chose not to. Had you chosen otherwise, either you would have gotten the same advantage, or the organizer would have decided then to forbid it for everyone. As the end result, the other team would not have gained on you.
This is a situation very different from getting an advantage that you had no possibility to gain. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
266
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Note though that the team did not get any advantage that another team could not have gotten. You even yourself say that the thought occurred to you too. You could have very well done the same thing they did; you chose not to. Had you chosen otherwise, either you would have gotten the same advantage, or the organizer would have decided then to forbid it for everyone. As the end result, the other team would not have gained on you.
This is a situation very different from getting an advantage that you had no possibility to gain.
Wrong. Several teams were made up of one or two people only. It was physically impossible for such small teams to scout an entire region in the time between the setup of the track and the race itself. It was not even a matter of choosing for them.
I will try to put it again differently : considering that most of the pilots were strongly opposed to that kind of tactics - they considered for most that racing was about racing, and not scouting a track that was supposed to stay hidden in the first place (I am merely stating what they thought here) - it was very unwise for the organizer to allow the use of such tactics nevertheless with the knowledge of that situation. I would say this was not far from being suicidal, actually. And it apparently was.
The wisest choice would have been not to allow it. If the team that used that trick asked beforehand, it was to stick to the rules, so they would have accepted that decision. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
283
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 05:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Note though that the team did not get any advantage that another team could not have gotten. You even yourself say that the thought occurred to you too. You could have very well done the same thing they did; you chose not to. Had you chosen otherwise, either you would have gotten the same advantage, or the organizer would have decided then to forbid it for everyone. As the end result, the other team would not have gained on you.
This is a situation very different from getting an advantage that you had no possibility to gain. Wrong. Several teams were made up of one or two people only. It was physically impossible for such small teams to scout an entire region in the time between the setup of the track and the race itself. It was not even a matter of choosing for them. I will try to put it again differently : considering that most of the pilots were strongly opposed to that kind of tactics - they considered for most that racing was about racing, and not scouting a track that was supposed to stay hidden in the first place (I am merely stating what they thought here) - it was very unwise for the organizer to allow the use of such tactics nevertheless with the knowledge of that situation. I would say this was not far from being suicidal, actually. And it apparently was. The wisest choice would have been not to allow it. If the team that used that trick asked beforehand, it was to stick to the rules, so they would have accepted that decision. 1) There is nothing in the league that forces small teams to remain small, instead of allying with each other. Again, being too small to effectively co-operate was your choice (and mine, but still, a choice). 2) Again, I do not think the league died to the call the organizer made. People were willing to continue racing after it, after all. It is not like there were a major pilot walk-out or anything. It died to the organizer quitting, in my understanding due to the drama they deserved for the hard work they put into the league. I think that was a shame - but that generally, judging from the drama I saw and still see, quite deserved. |
Graelyn
Knights of Kador Aegis Militia
235
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 07:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
Anyhow, it sounds like the general tone in here is "We should have something nice, as long as someone else will do the hard work that it requires." + Cardinal Graelyn + Owner/Operator, "The Summit" YR113 Amarr Loyalist of the Year
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N'maro Makari
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 07:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
Graelyn wrote:Anyhow, it sounds like the general tone in here is "We should have something nice, as long as someone else will do the hard work that it requires."
Lo and behold, the saga of the capsuleer. N'maro Makari Director of Public Relations The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative |
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
269
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 11:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: 1) There is nothing in the league that forces small teams to remain small, instead of allying with each other. Again, being too small to effectively co-operate was your choice (and mine, but still, a choice). Co-operation has always been a part of the league - e.g. using team-mates as warp-in to cover for botches was pretty much essential. 2) Again, I do not think the league died to the call the organizer made. People were willing to continue racing after it, after all. It is not like there were a major pilot walk-out or anything. It died to the organizer quitting, in my understanding due to the drama and complaints of "totally destroying the spirit" being the reward they got for the hard work they put into the league. I think that was a shame - but generally, judging from the drama I saw and still see, quite deserved.
1) It was specifically the organizers and sponsors that wanted to see more teams emerging. If the goal was to see them being ingested by phagocytosis from bigger teams afterwards, well, it does not make a lot of sense. In any case, a lot of facts and doctrines in that league continuously hampered the formation of small teams or freelances.
2) People were willing to continue racing with different rules, and nobody seemed to agree with each other. Of course, I do not know a lot more than that... I mostly watched the various reactions.
Graelyn wrote:Anyhow, it sounds like the general tone in here is "We should have something nice, as long as someone else will do the hard work that it requires."
I find the concept of racing interesting and was ready to organize a new one. At least, a part of it. I am terrible at finding sponsors and all the trade arrangements that have to be made. I do not really care if I am part of a race or not.
But I guess nobody proved really interested, or maybe I was just terrible at motivating people. Or the last drama was maybe too recent for people to really get invested in something else.
I also thought of subwarp racing which solves a lot of issues, but seeing the explanatory videos shown above, I have to admit that I do not find it really interesting, extremely simplistic, and very hazardous. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
284
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:I find the concept of racing interesting and was ready to organize a new one. At least, a part of it. I am terrible at finding sponsors and all the trade arrangements that have to be made. I do not really care if I am part of a race or not.
But I guess nobody proved really interested, or maybe I was just terrible at motivating people. If you are interested in doing it, just do it. When the league started originally, there were no fancy sponsors and prizes and trade arrangements and stuff. You do not need them. People do not race for the prizes; they race for the fun of it. All you need is to be willing to do the work. ISK you do not need.
(Edited to add: If the cost of the actual waypoint containers is prohibitive to you, I'll donate them.) |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
269
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
Setting up something with basically no enthusiasm or feedbacks is usually hardly worth it, especially when I asked Ms Gyra Rho last time if I could do anything to make it continue. But as I said this was back last year in another context.
If you tell me that it is really worth it, then I will start to think again about it.
NB : Containers prices are not an issue at all, and they can be re-used. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
285
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
Why do you need me to tell you if it is worth it?
Obviously Gyra did not think it was worth it for her, since she quit. Obviously I do not think it is worth it for me, or I'd be doing it myself.
What the hell does that have to do with whether it is worth it for you? |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
Woo, I wish I had not opened that can of worms, as it took the thread a bit off-topic, but thanks for the explanations regardless.
Lyn Farel wrote:I also thought of subwarp racing which solves a lot of issues, but seeing the explanatory videos shown above, I have to admit that I do not find it really interesting, extremely simplistic, and very hazardous. Each his/her opinion, but I suggest you try one first. Sure, the concept is luckily very simple, but trying to succesfully maneuver through a hairpin with as much speed as possible is quite a challenge. And I don't really see how it is very hazardous. One of the reasons I did not compete in the NERA was that I did not want to risk the lives of my crew, which seems more of a risk on the low-sec races of the NERA than the hi-sec races of the SRV.
Of course, those in military occupations will probably not find the races as exciting as your usual line of work, but for peaceful industrialists like me it is quite the adrenaline rush. |
Saikoyu
Rho Dynamics Tesseract Nexus
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
I believe I have read enough of this.
For the record, I was one of the pilots that used the tactic Lyn and other have talked about. I was not happy when it was declared un-usable, and I probably contributed to the "drama" that ended the league. Not that it needed much help. At one point I did care about that, but I find that I do not any more.
Sory to steal a jump on you Lyn, and you Benilopax, but I will be re-starting the league. Gyra is free to contact me at any time is she does not wish me to use the NERA name, but I will be following the same general format, racing between waypoints placed in different low sec systems. If some covert ops pilots wish to join me, I might even film it.
Unfortunately, I will be planet bound on and off over the next several months, so the league will not be restarting soon. At the moment, I believe I will be ready to start in late July. Until then, I bid you fair well and stop diverting this thread. Please start another if you wish to discuss this further. I will be watching. Siakoyu Eblis-Kad Manager of Rho Dynamics Head of Capsuleer operations for New Life Project |
Norrin Ellis
Venture Racing
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:54:00 -
[47] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote: Wrong. Several teams were made up of one or two people only. It was physically impossible for such small teams to scout an entire region in the time between the setup of the track and the race itself. It was not even a matter of choosing for them.
On the three occasions that I scouted the track, the first time I had assistance from two pilots. The other two times, I did it entirely alone.
Furthermore, a rational person would conclude that the smaller teams or independent pilots have a greater incentive to put in the time required to offset their disadvantages against larger teams.
Your major premise is demonstrably false. CEO, Venture Racing Senior Banker, EVE Online Hold'Em |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
269
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:52:00 -
[48] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Why do you need me to tell you if it is worth it? It's a lot of work, but racers would appreciate. If you do something racers do not like - and eventually you will - you will get some drama. When races run smoothly, you get a lot of glory. How can I decide how you should weigh those against each other?
Obviously Gyra did not think it was worth it for her, since she quit. Obviously I do not think it is worth it for me, or I'd be doing it myself.
What the hell does that have to do with whether it is worth it for you? That's something you have to decide for yourself.
Sure thing. You have my thanks for your advices.
Che Biko wrote: Each his/her opinion, but I suggest you try one first. Sure, the concept is luckily very simple, but trying to succesfully maneuver through a hairpin with as much speed as possible is quite a challenge. And I don't really see how it is very hazardous. One of the reasons I did not compete in the NERA was that I did not want to risk the lives of my crew, which seems more of a risk on the low-sec races of the NERA than the hi-sec races of the SRV.
Of course, those in military occupations will probably not find the races as exciting as your usual line of work, but for peaceful industrialists like me it is quite the adrenaline rush.
A single video is definitly not exhaustive and if you have other materials to offer I would really like to see them. Maybe if I find the time to try it myself, I will, too. Do not hesitate to make me know when you have a track at your disposal, or whatever.
What I found hazardous was not the system in itself, but more how to know if a racer has passed every waypoint correctly, especially if they all race together. I believe it has to be quite intensive for all your judges/observers.
Saikoyu wrote: Sory to steal a jump on you Lyn, and you Benilopax, but I will be re-starting the league.
There is nothing to steal. The more different proposal racers have, the more they will pick what they think is best for their tastes and the least outrages.
Norrin Ellis wrote:
On the three occasions that I scouted the track, the first time I had assistance from two pilots. The other two times, I did it entirely alone.
Good for you. It may be physically possible for you, but not for me, at least. My apologies if I tend to forget that I tend to lack of stamina.
Norrin Ellis wrote:Furthermore, a rational person would conclude that the smaller teams or independent pilots have a greater incentive to put in the time required to offset their disadvantages against larger teams.
Your major premise is demonstrably false.
Fortunately, you do not sound like a rational person. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:21:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:A single video is definitly not exhaustive and if you have other materials to offer I would really like to see them. Maybe if I find the time to try it myself, I will, too. Do not hesitate to make me know when you have a track at your disposal, or whatever.
What I found hazardous was not the system in itself, but more how to know if a racer has passed every waypoint correctly, especially if they all race together. I believe it has to be quite intensive for all your judges/observers. Well, the channel the linked video is in should contain some races like this one. This one is mostly just between me and Kabel, as the other racers were rookies, so feel free to skip to the next round video after we are done . This track has a loop.
Well, it can be challenging for the judges, but even with 10+ participants in a race it is doable for the most part (with enough judges), and it may happen that you get a penalty for cutting when in fact you were not, but if you are that close, than it is just a risk you take. There was someone not agreeing with a decision sometimes, but nothing resulting in problematic drama. We never considered using stuff like replays if there was doubt.
I'll try to remember to fill you in if I find out there is a track somewhere.
Edit: P.S. Send me a mail as a reminder, to improve the chances of me remembering. |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
267
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:43:00 -
[50] - Quote
Just to update you all on the Racing League, I have secured EVETV coverage for the event. It will not be a live broadcast as discussed before but footage will be put together to be played during the finals of the alliance tournament.
I have decided that sub-warp racing will be my preferred format as it's much easier to cover visually.
However I read that others now wish to start a racing league, with different formats, I would strongly urge that we try to work together to build a stronger racing league that can supply all tastes. |
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Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
267
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:47:00 -
[51] - Quote
Niraia wrote:Hi Benilopax, Lyn Farel wrote:I find it interesting. I however still have doubts on what will be done to prevent the unfortunate last events that basically lead the NERA to its end ? Unless this can be adequately addressed, there's no reason to proceed. I'm also not sure why a self-proclaimed "fat and rich" mogul should be seeking donations at this early stage. However, if you can work it out, it'd be nice to talk sometime. I'd personally enjoy watching the races, too.
I'm planning to sink a lot of my isk into this endeavour but I'm always willing to add money to the prize fund from other sources so that we can have several prizes for ship classes team awards etc etc |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
267
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
Saikoyu wrote:I believe I have read enough of this.
For the record, I was one of the pilots that used the tactic Lyn and other have talked about. I was not happy when it was declared un-usable, and I probably contributed to the "drama" that ended the league. Not that it needed much help. At one point I did care about that, but I find that I do not any more.
Sory to steal a jump on you Lyn, and you Benilopax, but I will be re-starting the league. Gyra is free to contact me at any time is she does not wish me to use the NERA name, but I will be following the same general format, racing between waypoints placed in different low sec systems. If some covert ops pilots wish to join me, I might even film it.
Unfortunately, I will be planet bound on and off over the next several months, so the league will not be restarting soon. At the moment, I believe I will be ready to start in late July. Until then, I bid you fair well and stop diverting this thread. Please start another if you wish to discuss this further. I will be watching.
Well seeing as organisation for my sub warp race event has already begun (see above) and you plan to start warp races at around the same time, can we not work together to create a broad spectrum of racing events under the same banner?
You know, because it would be fun? |
Astrid Stjerna
Underking Family
667
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:06:00 -
[53] - Quote
Benilopax wrote:Greetings fellow speed enthusiasts!
As you may know there was once a series of races held across the galaxy that brought in billions of isk in prize money. Sadly the races stopped and there was an abortive attempt to re-ignite the concept of pitting pilots against each other on the track rather than in the arena.
I personally held a few race meetings independently of the regular season which were popular events. I have since become fat and rich and like any good mogul I wish to sink my hard earned isk into prize money to attempt to relaunch the racing season once more.
My proposal is as follows, if I can secure the support of racing teams, pilots, sponsors, and stewards I will hold a racing meet during the Alliance tournament with an initial prize fund of 5 Billion isk, not as a season grand prize but just for the race itself, I want to make the fatest pilots rich men and I would like donations to be made to the prize fund to be held by a trustworthy third party (Chribba) so that we can get a prize fund in excess of 10 billion.
I would like commentary, I would like EVE radio coverage, I would like EVETV coverage, but I can only do this if there are racers, staff and of course fans willing to bet on the outcome so that we can sell this event as one worthy of merit.
I will gladly accept help and support and pledges to get this sport back onto the space-lanes!
What say you New Eden?
Benilopax
If you need someone to commentate, I can connect you with a few people.
((OOC: I can provide editing services if you have video available, including commentary and stuff.))
I can't get rid of my darn signature!-á Oh, wait.... |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
269
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:09:00 -
[54] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:Benilopax wrote:Greetings fellow speed enthusiasts!
As you may know there was once a series of races held across the galaxy that brought in billions of isk in prize money. Sadly the races stopped and there was an abortive attempt to re-ignite the concept of pitting pilots against each other on the track rather than in the arena.
I personally held a few race meetings independently of the regular season which were popular events. I have since become fat and rich and like any good mogul I wish to sink my hard earned isk into prize money to attempt to relaunch the racing season once more.
My proposal is as follows, if I can secure the support of racing teams, pilots, sponsors, and stewards I will hold a racing meet during the Alliance tournament with an initial prize fund of 5 Billion isk, not as a season grand prize but just for the race itself, I want to make the fatest pilots rich men and I would like donations to be made to the prize fund to be held by a trustworthy third party (Chribba) so that we can get a prize fund in excess of 10 billion.
I would like commentary, I would like EVE radio coverage, I would like EVETV coverage, but I can only do this if there are racers, staff and of course fans willing to bet on the outcome so that we can sell this event as one worthy of merit.
I will gladly accept help and support and pledges to get this sport back onto the space-lanes!
What say you New Eden?
Benilopax If you need someone to commentate, I can connect you with a few people. ((OOC: I can provide editing services if you have video available, including commentary and stuff.))
That's the most positive response so far! Thank you! |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:22:00 -
[55] - Quote
This is awesome! In fact, it's so awesome I almost can't believe it. You better be not be pranking us, Benilopax! Darn, now I will have to check my implants, get back in my pod and try to reassemble the team. Haha, who am I kidding, I'll do it gladly for this.
giddygiddy wooohooo! |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
254
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:03:00 -
[56] - Quote
Benilopax,
Change the format to sub warp, set up interesting tracks, hire the right live-commentators, and you will have success on your hands.
Sub warp format will in fact translate quite well to the "Eve-TV" audience.
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 03:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
For those interested I link the thread concerning the actual planned event here: racing event thread |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate The Ashen Syndicate
277
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 11:45:00 -
[58] - Quote
Have created a channel and mailing list called "New Eden Racing" please join for more information and discussions. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 21:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote: Do not hesitate to make me know when you have a track at your disposal, or whatever.
Caldari state has kindly authorized Xeltec services to build a track in Ikao. The current license is valid for another 25 days.
Send me a mail for Instructions on how to get to the track.
Jill Xelitras
EVE Racing event thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107164&find=unread
Join in game channel/mailing list: New Eden Racing |
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