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TravisWB
The Gallente Rangers
43
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
It seems that many of you don't understand basic economics.
Overall inflation, as in all prices rising steadily and relentlessly as has been the case in EVE over the last 3 years, does not mean you are making money on items you have bought long ago and held waiting for higher prices.
Because, dear child of socialist training, when all prices go up price is only a relative factor.
Say you had a unit of trit you bought when it was 2isk and now you sell it at 4 isk. Did you make 2 isk? of course. Was it profit?
Lets see, uh, say a round of small antimatter was 5 isk back when you bought your 2 isk trit. Now that same round of AM is 10isk. Have you actually made any money on your trit?
NO.
Prices are actually relatively the same, it just takes longer to make the isk and therefore the truth of the matter is evident.
Inflation makes everyone poorer.
Speculation on the other hand is a shell game in which you buy items in the hope you can sell them at a higher price in the future and then BUY THEM BACK LATER at a lower price. Viola, that is the profit incentive in speculation. It is not merely buy and hold as in the INFLATION scenario already described. Oh, and buy the way. It is also your ONLY method of making a legitimate profit in this game of terror, murder, theft and piracy.
All other activities are just self delusion that you are making profit via inflation when the reality is you are losing money daily.
Inflation makes all things cost more.
Cost is how long it takes you to earn enough isk to buy a thing.
When it takes longer, you are poorer and will be induced to take drastic actions such as the purchase of PLEX from CCP in order to obtain the isk you can no longer afford to invest the time required to EARN isk via any method you choose.
Exactly as CCP has intended.
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Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
512
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:Because, dear child of socialist training, when all prices go up price is only a relative factor.
American detected I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
706
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Its still profit because after the patch when folks dump their mins the supply will be huge while demand has dropped.
And the cycle will repeat until a new equilibrium is found... or CCP realize they made a mistake and change minerals somewhere. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
706
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Karn Dulake wrote:Quote:Because, dear child of socialist training, when all prices go up price is only a relative factor.
American detected Non-United Statesian detected...
Ouch no wonder we call ourselves Americans... |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1051
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
TravisWB wrote:Overall inflation, as in all prices rising steadily and relentlessly as has been the case in EVE over the last 3 years, does not mean you are making money on items you have bought long ago and held waiting for higher prices. I'll see your claim of constant and steady inflation and raise you a "prove it". List the highest and lowest prices a Raven has ever sold for on average and the rough date that happened. Then pick a few other random different items with decent trade volumes and do the same.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T |
TravisWB
The Gallente Rangers
43
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Don't be fooled, The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years. Observe that the leader of that once great nation is a MARXIST.
Speculation is buying low, selling high, buying back at a lower price and then using or reselling at a gain = profit.
Everything else considered profit in this game is a delusion.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1051
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
TravisWB wrote:Speculation is buying low, selling high, buying back at a lower price and then using or reselling at a gain = profit. Everything else considered profit in this game is a delusion. So let's say that the HYPOTHETICAL average inflation rate was 10% per year across almost everything. If I buy something today and sell it a year later at 20% markup compared to the price I bought it at, did I make a profit ? Your opinion seems to be that I didn't. I say that I made at least around 10% profit.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T |
TravisWB
The Gallente Rangers
43
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Akita T wrote:TravisWB wrote:Overall inflation, as in all prices rising steadily and relentlessly as has been the case in EVE over the last 3 years, does not mean you are making money on items you have bought long ago and held waiting for higher prices. I'll see your claim of constant and steady inflation and raise you a "prove it". List the highest and lowest prices a Raven has ever sold for on average and the rough date that happened. Then pick a few other random different items with decent trade volumes and do the same.
Most, if not all, manufactured goods are subject to the whims of the marketplace and the player mood of the game. It is not uncommon to see ships especially sell for far less than cost of production.
Inflation begins with the price of the basic building blocks such as ores, ice products, planet and moon products. I believe you can probably choose any 10 items from the basics and 9 of 10 or 10 of 10 will show a roughly 300% price increase over the last 3 years.
Eventually, even things affected by fad failure increase in price.
Example, Fleet Issue Stabber, do your own research. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
447
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aha, another inflation troll. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
TravisWB
The Gallente Rangers
43
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Akita T wrote:TravisWB wrote:Speculation is buying low, selling high, buying back at a lower price and then using or reselling at a gain = profit. Everything else considered profit in this game is a delusion. So let's say that the HYPOTHETICAL average inflation rate was 10% per year across almost everything. If I buy something today and sell it a year later at 20% markup compared to the price I bought it at, did I make a profit ? Your opinion seems to be that I didn't. I say that I made at least around 10% profit.
That is only part of the equation.
The rest is, what does it cost you to replace said item?
If you sold at 10% over the current market price and can replace the item you sold and have a 10% differential then yes you made a profit.
But, if the new market price is the same as your selling price and you have to pay market price to replace your item then NO, you actually lost value though the monetary numbers are larger. |
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Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
442
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Posted - 2012.04.24 02:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Aha, another inflation troll.
so hows that "take over all of 0.0 then quit the game" plan workin out?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
448
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Posted - 2012.04.24 03:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Aha, another inflation troll. so hows that "take over all of 0.0 then quit the game" plan workin out? There are no plans to take over all of 0.0 (unlike I guess BoB). Not that the ~ooh~ higher-us have divulged anyway. Your own spai may differ.
For example, NC. might get to sit where they are for a while unless some other neighbor decides to do to them what said neighbor did to someone in Branch when that someone was cascading.
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Whitehound
193
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Posted - 2012.04.24 03:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
TravisWB wrote:Akita T wrote:TravisWB wrote:Speculation is buying low, selling high, buying back at a lower price and then using or reselling at a gain = profit. Everything else considered profit in this game is a delusion. So let's say that the HYPOTHETICAL average inflation rate was 10% per year across almost everything. If I buy something today and sell it a year later at 20% markup compared to the price I bought it at, did I make a profit ? Your opinion seems to be that I didn't. I say that I made at least around 10% profit. That is only part of the equation. The rest is, what does it cost you to replace said item? If you sold at 10% over the current market price and can replace the item you sold and have a 10% differential then yes you made a profit. But, if the new market price is the same as your selling price and you have to pay market price to replace your item then NO, you actually lost value though the monetary numbers are larger. A million ISKs did buy you more trit a few months ago than it does now. One needs more ISKs to buy anything now than one did back then. What some see as a profit or a win is not more than protecting the value of one's ISKs. If one did not invest, but kept the ISKs then one made a loss. Only when the prices fall and one still possesses the ISKs does one make a profit.
If I get you right, then I agree with you.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1053
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Posted - 2012.04.24 03:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
TravisWB wrote:Akita T wrote:TravisWB wrote:Speculation is buying low, selling high, buying back at a lower price and then using or reselling at a gain = profit. Everything else considered profit in this game is a delusion. So let's say that the HYPOTHETICAL average inflation rate was 10% per year across almost everything. If I buy something today and sell it a year later at 20% markup compared to the price I bought it at, did I make a profit ? Your opinion seems to be that I didn't. I say that I made at least around 10% profit. That is only part of the equation. The rest is, what does it cost you to replace said item? If you sold at 10% over the current market price and can replace the item you sold and have a 10% differential then yes you made a profit. But, if the new market price is the same as your selling price and you have to pay market price to replace your item then NO, you actually lost value though the monetary numbers are larger. It is irrelevant how much it costs to replace that item, especially if you don't NEED that item (but even if you do, as long as it's NOT the ONLY item you need).
Maybe the items I want is PLEX and Drakes, but I have bought and held technetium instead. I don't HAVE to want to use technetium for anything myself to have bought it at 10k two and a half years ago and sell it now at 200k and make a HUGE profit, even if you account for any price increases of PLEX or Drakes in the past two and a half years. As long as you sell something for more than the inflation-adjusted price you bought it for (or could have sold when you decided to keep), you HAVE made a profit. Or are you saying that I actually didn't make a profit ?
Also, if you want to be nitpicky, the most relevant price indicator is not ISK, it's time, or better said, average player time required to acquire a particular item. You will notice that for most items, the ratio between that average time and its cost in ISK has remained relatively steady, and most ISK price fluctuations actually come from changes in the average time required to get it. The shift in ISK price BEYOND that "time needed" change factor is closer to the actual inflation rate than just the raw ISK price difference. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T |
D Program
Yamamoto Industries
22
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Posted - 2012.04.24 05:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
You decide to quit the game for a year.
You have 500 ISK CASH in your wallet and 1 trit steady price is 2 ISK on market.
It takes 250 trit to build a magic ship. Lets say magic ship costs 750 ISK on market. (50% pure profit from manufacturing and selling)
The person who is quitting, buys 250 trit before he quits.
A year goes by...
Person decides to come back.
Now trit costs 4 ISK on market.
Therefor magic ship manufacturing costs 1000 ISK and on market it sells for 1500 ISK (50% pure profit from manufacturing and selling)
The person can manufacture the ship and sell it and have 1500 ISK. He is now up to date with the inflation vs his former capital and can start playing the game without any losses.
IF he would have kept the ISK as CASH in his wallet. He could buy only 125 trit and that is only half of the magic ship manufacture cost.
Person is sad in this case. What is this sorcery?
http://www.eve-cost.eu |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc Order of the Void
285
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Posted - 2012.04.24 06:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
TravisWB wrote:The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years.
Im giving you a thumbs up just for this statement alone. Now I can say this to people at work and feel smart. lol
+1 |
wiskyjack
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
0
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Posted - 2012.04.24 07:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
I see a flaw in your argument,
A year ago I bought 2 hulks after hulkageddon for 70 million each. One I left in hanger never used, the other I use. The one I use has more than paid me back the 140 million. Both can sell for 350+, which at a rough guess is 250% up on my original outlay.
If I sell today I will have over one billion in my wallet including isk made from mining.
How have I not made a profit |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
747
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 11:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
TravisWB wrote:... Viola, that is the profit incentive in speculation. ...
What does a bowed string instrument have to do with profit incentive?
Here's your sign... |
Whitehound
196
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Posted - 2012.04.24 11:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
wiskyjack wrote:I see a flaw in your argument,
A year ago I bought 2 hulks after hulkageddon for 70 million each. One I left in hanger never used, the other I use. The one I use has more than paid me back the 140 million. Both can sell for 350+, which at a rough guess is 250% up on my original outlay.
If I sell today I will have over one billion in my wallet including isk made from mining.
How have I not made a profit Because ISK itself has no particular value.
Your ISKs now will only buy you another Hulk, just as it did back then.
You do have more ISKs, but you cannot profit from having more than you did back then. Hence, no profit.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
562
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Posted - 2012.04.24 11:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
..never seen this type of thread before, refreshing! shiptoastin' liek a baws |
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wiskyjack
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
0
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Posted - 2012.04.24 12:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:wiskyjack wrote:I see a flaw in your argument,
A year ago I bought 2 hulks after hulkageddon for 70 million each. One I left in hanger never used, the other I use. The one I use has more than paid me back the 140 million. Both can sell for 350+, which at a rough guess is 250% up on my original outlay.
If I sell today I will have over one billion in my wallet including isk made from mining.
How have I not made a profit Because ISK itself has no particular value. Your ISKs now will only buy you another Hulk, just as they did back then. You do have more ISKs, but you cannot profit from having more than you could have profited back then. Hence, no profit. Or
With said billion I could build a Kronos for 500 million and sell it unfitted for another one billion bringing my wallet to 1.5 billion (going by current jita prices).
or am I imagining making isk. |
LordParj
Tz Industries BadFellas.
0
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Posted - 2012.04.24 12:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Do we get a raise in salary with inflation like Continental SRL, give us? |
Whitehound
196
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Posted - 2012.04.24 12:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
wiskyjack wrote:or am I imagining making isk. Sure will you have more ISKs than yesterday, but you cannot fly ISK, you cannot fit ISK to a ship, you cannot build a ship out of ISK. It is only an illusion.
If however the prices go down and you have kept your ISKs then you have made a profit even when you did not do anything for it.
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clixor
Celluloid Gurus
7
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Posted - 2012.04.24 12:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Montevius Williams wrote:TravisWB wrote:The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years.
Im giving you a thumbs up just for this statement alone. Now I can say this to people at work and feel smart. lol +1 Edit: As a matter a fact, Im using this is my sig. Hope you dont mind
I hate to go OT but i'll make an exception in this case:
dude(s) stop watching Bill O'Reilly and inform yourselves. Read Das Kapital and then come back making assumptions.
Now i got that of my chest. Exactly one year ago talk of the town was deflation, now inflation. meh.
Akita is correct, it's about purchasing power, inflation is a state where income stay equal or declines and prices increase. However... in RL interest rates would rise, as we don't have a (central) bank in EVE so the only players that are really effected by the current state of things are players with NO income, NO significant assets and big wallets as really the only item they need are PLEX. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
696
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Posted - 2012.04.24 12:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Misanth wrote:..never seen this type of thread before, refreshing!
I do like the wingnutty "anti-Obama" slant he has in his first few replies though, just what I want to read when I'm playing a game about Internet spaceships: conspiracy theories about our President. |
wiskyjack
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
0
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Posted - 2012.04.24 13:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:wiskyjack wrote:or am I imagining making isk. Sure will you have more ISKs than yesterday, but you cannot fly ISK, you cannot fit ISK to a ship, you cannot build a ship out of ISK. It is only an illusion. If however the prices go down and you have kept your ISKs then you have made a profit even when you did not do anything for it. You remind me of the architect from the matrix.... Ergo the door is not a door ,but a door is a -.......... Ergo,ergo ergo |
gfldex
485
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Posted - 2012.04.24 13:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
TravisWB wrote:Inflation makes everyone poorer.
Let's say I would like to buy a carrier skill book. Assuming I make 50M/h it would take me 9 hours to get that ISK. Since I'm a clever guy I was working for 4.5 h, took the ISK and bought Nocx with that money (or Pax Amarrian for that matter). Prices doubled and I sold. Now I got a carrier skill book for halve the invested time.
I am very sorry but you have clearly a very poor understanding of economics.
When someone burns down your sandcaste, bring sausages. |
Whitehound
196
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Posted - 2012.04.24 13:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
wiskyjack wrote:You remind me of the architect from the matrix.... Ergo the door is not a door ,but a door is a -.......... Ergo,ergo ergo Why did you not tell me earlier? What you need is ice cream!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6262
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Posted - 2012.04.24 13:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:TravisWB wrote:... Viola, that is the profit incentive in speculation. ...
What does a bowed string instrument have to do with profit incentive? GǪor plants, for that matter?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nirnias Stirrum
Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
96
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Posted - 2012.04.24 13:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
AMURIKANS trying to understand maths since July 4, 1776. |
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