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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.02.17 21:27:00 -
[1]
Vale Sci. & Ind.
I'm hoping to talk about what will be needed to start up an industrial base in w-space with the folks here. My goal is to help us, most particularly ME, figure out beforehand what we would need in order to jump-start an industrial base in w-space.
Assume the following: POS's can be set up. Logistics will be a nightmare, but not impossible, for supporting those POS's. Succeeding will help make you rich, and be fun. You have already scouted a system and know it's a desirable one to settle and can defend the initial anchoring of the POS.
Given those assumptions I'm thinking most of the mass you want to bring in will be fuel for your POS and essential components of your industrial base. So initially I'd like to consider those components since once they are up the rest will start to fall in line.
I forsee the need for a control tower, obviously. You will also require a refining array for the production of t1 mins. Then you'll need an assembly array, or a set of them, to produce t1 goods. You'll also need a corp-hangar. I think you'll want some sort of lab to handle the reverse engineering, and ship-building arrays for the construction of local defence.
I'm sure I'm missing some things, please help correct me.
Initial planning would be to bring in and anchor the POS structures. Then you can get a mining-gang going to build larger defensive ships than the worm-holes will allow the import of. At this point you can begin defensive operations to secure your system. Following this period you then begin attempting to produce reactions, reverse-engineer t3 prints, produce t3 goods, . . . ., whatever you can think of.
I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking along these lines. So let me know what you're thinking of, and we'll share ideas and plans.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 22:06:00 -
[2]
What advantage do you see from an idustrial base in w-space? There are no stations and thus no markets there. So you have to haul all your raw materials in and then haul all your products out. Or you can mine and deal with the obscene loss and time of a refining array.
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Korizan
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Posted - 2009.02.17 22:30:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Korizan on 17/02/2009 22:30:55 Bottom line the initial systems it is not going to happen. There are going to be too many restrictions to make it worth while.
Basically w-space is. Go there kill the NPC's find the T3 part and get out.
Nothing more will happen there. Maybe some PvP if somebody else enters the system while you are there.
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.02.17 23:05:00 -
[4]
Well Korizon and War Fairy, I think you are assuming there will be nothing in there worth getting. At some point we may come down to an irreconcilable difference of opinion on this point, but I will at least attempt to explain why I don't share that assumption in the hopes that we can return the discussion to "How" rather than "Why".
I believe the presence of moons with valuable moon minerals like dyspro implies reason to industrialize. I believe the size restrictions of wormholes imply that exporting finished goods will be better than exporting raw materials. I believe that long term mining of t3 components and materials will require more of a base than an orca and a safespot. I believe that running reactions of t3 materials will be hard outside of w-space for the non 0.0 enabled. I believe that there will be things we don't know yet that will make this profitable.
Have I convinced you yet?
If not, and I may not have, can we pretend that why I want to do it is irrelevant and return to how I could do it?
Someone had asked why mine and refine locally. My reasoning is that the volume restrictions on imports means that for the bulk minerals you won't be able to import them. And even if you could import them the volume of minerals means that there will almost always be something else more important that you could have brought instead. To support my contention I will point out that most modules are smaller in volume than the minerals used to create them.
What I don't know is what sort of POS items can be built on spot, and what must be imported. We know you need to import NPC goods and fuel for POSs. But can I build anything other than a tower on in-system? I haven't been able to find prints for anything other than the control tower yet.
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Lui Kai
Logistics Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.02.18 02:19:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Lui Kai on 18/02/2009 02:20:02
Originally by: Gaius Aemilius ...But can I build anything other than a tower on in-system? I haven't been able to find prints for anything other than the control tower yet.
There are BPCs for faction towers and guns. In order to build a tower, you'd need a tower and construction array online, so that BPC is a bit moot. The other modules (refining arrays, construction arrays, et cetera) have to be hauled in.
In address to the "why" justifications, though - really, moon mining is the only real reason to setup a POS. Production would be far more efficiently and easily carried out in K-space. That's not to say there's not benefits to having a w-space POS, just that the extra work of building anything at that POS will be more headache than it's worth, for less profits and more work than just bringing your haul back to k-space. ----------------
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Korizan
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Posted - 2009.02.18 02:57:00 -
[6]
Okay then you will need the following.
All POS modules you want in w-space. All the fuel for the POS (if you find ice in system this isn't too bad)
You will NOT be able to bring capitals in or out via cyno's Apparently the space will be too far away for cyno's and the wormholes will not support a capital going through them (rumor) You will Not be able to get sov so you can't build capitals.
So is it possible yes.
I was not lieing by what I said before the initial release is not setup for people to live there, again rumor is that will eventually change. The initial release is for T3 modules.
SO I must agree I myself have hope that what you want to do can be done. but right now I am playing the pesmist rather then get my hopes up. Unfortunately last I heard the worms holes on the test server are still not working. Last week I found 3 with no issues (there is a pattern to there location by the way) But nobody has gone through yet other then to other locations in k-space no w-space.
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Agrilad
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Posted - 2009.02.18 03:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Korizan Apparently the space will be too far away for cyno's and the wormholes will not support a capital going through them (rumor)
Dev's have stated the largest wormholes will allow a Mothership.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.18 04:00:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Baka Lakadaka on 18/02/2009 04:00:57
Originally by: Korizan Okay then you will need the following.
All POS modules you want in w-space. All the fuel for the POS (if you find ice in system this isn't too bad)
Don't forget probes to find the exit if it closes behind you (unless the exit is always in the same place in the system - who knows).
There's also nothing to guarantee you'll get everything in. You might find the worm-hole disappears only to reappear on the other side of the universe part way through your logistics effort. I'm guessing you'll need to pop a scout from within w-space through the new exit and let the remainder of your team know where it is. They can then either high-tail it across to the new wormhole, or you might choose to close it on purpose and hope for a better drop on the next exit spawned.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.02.18 04:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Korizan You will NOT be able to bring capitals in or out via cyno's Apparently the space will be too far away for cyno's and the wormholes will not support a capital going through them (rumor) You will Not be able to get sov so you can't build capitals.
Not via cyno fields no, only via the wormholes that will be big enough to get capitals in (which will not be any that connect to highsec for obvious return journey reasons ;) )
You don't need sov to build capitals, only supercapitals, so no titans or motherships built in there. I fully expect some systems (ie ones with Dyspro moons) to have a mothership parked in there :o
I expect high end moons will be the only real reason to base a very well defended POS out there, and the only real reason to bring dreads.
Other than that you will probably just want a small POS at most with some storage /safety, maybe an orca or carrier as a base/fire support.
Refining any local ice may be handy to reduce the amount of fuel you need to haul in, as LO/HW is one of the larger components of POS fuel. I don't imagine people will do much mining or construction out there, it's just so much easier to do in normal space.
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Kedo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.18 04:28:00 -
[10]
I don't think you fully understand what exactly is going to be in these wormholes.
First off, it is stated that there won't be ice so to speak (possibly non static ice) so fuel has to be brought in to actually fuel a POS. Now the wormholes open randomly and are on a timer if you don't find them, or a weight if you do in which case i hope your math is good to fly back and forth through it and end up inside it last cycle to spawn a new one (probably going to be faster then waiting for it to despawn)
Next being lack of any outposts means that if you wanted to produce there, you would technically have to bring many many BPC's or BPO's there which can be a big sum to risk.
Next is the idea of a "delayed local" which if this does get implemented you can't use local to get an idea of who is nearby so while you are "farming/mining" a pirate can come in, find and kill you before you know what hit you.
Next are probes. Run out you just wasted xxx time hoping someone nice will come get you out.
Lastly being the fact that IF FOR WHATEVER REASON, you get stuck outside your wormhole system without an alt in it... you can kiss all your POS gear and everything goodbye. 2500 systems with a 1/2500 chance a wormhole will lead you back to your system. By the time you "find" it again it will be defueled and blown up and stripped for modules by any of the 40k players who does find it.
Now I am not saying it isn't possible, there are benefits by "safety" compared to 0.0, but logistics are going to be a nightmare.
Only way I could see someone doing this successfully is to have entire corp get cyno alts all around edge of empire in .4 systems. When you need to ship stuff to or from the wormhole system, take a jump capable ship + cyno, go through wormhole back to normal space, find nearest cyno sleeper cell, that guy logs on and you cyno to drop off/pick up. Cyno back using guy who came through wormhole with you, then you and cyno guy again once more travel through wormhole. Have to do it this way due to no cyno from wormhole space.
Essentially it is a big pain in the rear which is going to take many people to even work 1 system alone.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.18 04:55:00 -
[11]
Realistically, one corporation will fail but an alliance might be able to make the logistics work if they have it perfectly worked out.
Blueprint Store |
Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.18 04:58:00 -
[12]
Try small tower and few essential arrays for a start. Medium, if there is more than 5 of you aiming to live out there in w-space. And also jam all your alts you can find into that hole with whatever they can fly and make sure each one of them has probe launcher on.
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.02.18 06:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Carniflex And also jam all your alts you can find into that hole with whatever they can fly and make sure each one of them has probe launcher on.
Yeah, I've been discussing this with some people and towers and arrays are the keys.
We also concluded that pilot count was hugely important as well. Jamming every alt you can think of in is a solidly good idea. Solid.
Like a rock.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.02.18 12:41:00 -
[14]
Personally, I think you'd be a lot better off (and make a lot more money) simply dropping an alt into a W-space system with a hauler full of ammunition and a cloak, and advertising it in local.
Provided you can work out a sales mechanic (I've thought of a few already to protect myself *and* the customer) you then forego the cost of fuel and logistics to get minerals to said logistics base.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.02.18 12:53:00 -
[15]
1 small tower with silo bonus 1 moon harvester 1 corp hanger array as many silos as you can fit
Done.
Moon mining makes sense. Building a whole infrastructure does not.
25% loss on all refining. That means everything you make costs 25% more. Is your margin greater than 25%? If not you're loosing money and spending extra time to do it.
Refing arrays take time. Do you mine faster than you can refine?
Are there static belts or just exploration belts?
Are the sleepers going to attack miners?
You're pretty much limited to your system. What happens if there's no good sites in your system? You moving your whole operation next door? Is there mass enough in the worm hole? For how many hauler trips? And your miners to get back?
How much ammo can you fit in an orca or even a deep space. Way more than you will use.
Why is running a reactor hard for those outside 0.0? Reactors can be run in 0.3.
Basically what it boils down to is that to set up an industrial base will require more cargo trips for fuel than if you just ran ammo in and loot out.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.02.18 12:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Brock Nelson Realistically, one corporation will fail but an alliance might be able to make the logistics work if they have it perfectly worked out.
2 characters can run a POS in w-space. I'd do three for safety but 2 can be done with meticulous planning.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.18 13:04:00 -
[17]
As one can not claim sov in wormspace then it is not sensible to try to run 'industry' off from tower in the sense of actually refining on spot (compared to running it in low sec), unless it's some special case and not done for exporting to regular space but more like for local consumption (like moving with whole corp into wormspace system and using local minerals to build ammo and replacement ships for local use).
Depending on logistiks it might make sense to run tech 3 reactions out in wormspace if regular minerals needed for those reactions are less bulky than gases needed (that are supposed to be found in wormspace). Altho in most cases low sec operation should be preferable (or at least a lot less hassle).
Overall I see 2 viable way to use POS in wormspace (1) Armed safespot and ship refitting location (2) Moon mining if you have found 'good' moon. Preferable both at the same time.
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.02.18 16:40:00 -
[18]
Damnit, wrote a long reply and my browser ate it.
Hell.
I'm thinking of this on a small corp scale, say 10 men or so for the initial expedition. The goal is to "own" a system. At the moment my biggest question lies in what to bring, which arrays are necessary and which can be put off until the a re-supply opportunity arises? How much fuel do you bring in?
As for why, again I'll offer some reasons, which probably will continue to derive derision from us. I am not in 0.0 at the moment, so I can't run all the reactions I want, I could change this but I'd rather change by going into w-space. Volume is a restraint for exports from w-space, so I'd prefer to export finished goods instead of raw materials. I believe I will get stranded for a few days at a shot and might as well take the time to build things and research stuff instead of sitting idle. I want to mine moon mins.
Most importantly, I want to move into w-space with a small gang and live there. I want this because I want this. And I will throw time, thought, effort, and isk into the project because I think that in addition to being challenging and dangerous it will be fun for me and my friends. It may be fundamentally irrational of me to want this, but I want what I want.
Hopefully that last paragraph puts paid to the "Why the hell do you want to do this?" questions.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.02.18 16:53:00 -
[19]
small tower with silo bonus moon miner hanger array silos
Moon mine. Store Fuel and ammo and loot in hanger.
Anything larger and you make your job harder. You'll be spending more time hauling fuel than you would be hauling ammo.
Again I ask why can't you react in lowsec?
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.02.18 17:13:00 -
[20]
I could react in low-sec.
But it would involve a few things I'd like to avoid.
First it would involve exporting raw materials instead of finished goods. I don't like that.
Second, it will involve supporting a POS in two different places. I intend to be in w-space most of the time. I don't care to defend/fuel/etc. POS in two systems when I can't easily jump between them.
I guess fundamentally it's the question of where am I living? If I'm living in k-space and only diving for profit into w-space then I'd rather react in low-sec. If I'm planning to live in w-space and just export to k-space then I'd rather react in w-space.
Basically I'd rather live in w-space. I think it sounds fun. Admitted the logistics will be a hassle, perhaps an insurmountable hassle. But I think the challenge will be fun to solve, and I think that exporting finished goods is a good business model. If I can make it work I'll make it work.
After all, you don't have to join me. (although if I convince anyone to join me I wouldn't mind the company)
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.18 17:24:00 -
[21]
Titan ~ 1 700 000 000 kg Mothership ~ 1 300 000 000 kg Freighter ~ 1 125 000 000 kg Dreadnaught ~ 1 200 000 000 kg Carrier ~ 1 000 000 000 kg Orca ~250 000 000 kg Battleship ~ 100 000 000 kg Hulk ~ 40 000 000 kg Deep Space transport ~20 000 000 kg Battlecruiser ~ 15 000 000 kg Industrial ~15 000 000 kg Cruiser ~ 12 000 000 kg Blocade Runner ~10 000 000 kg Frigate ~ 1 200 000 kg
CCP has confirmed 2 things in that bigger thread (1) Some wormholes will be big enough to let Mothership thru, but they are so rare to event that you will get that mothership out alive is unlikely (in combination of your opposition being pvp like, ie able to kill solo mothership over time that does not have support fleet) (2) Wormholes will have in addition to mass limit also shiptype limit so you will not able to put capital ships into hi sec empire thru womrspace even if you manage to get capital ship onto w-space and find big enough hole into hi sec space.
So - for 10 man team (alltogether 30 chars if everyone is in with one account only) I would try to ram in for a start 10 HAC's or Command ships and 20 x Bestower's (as your out-of-box-alt is unlikely to be able to drive iteron 5's, if willing to train him up to week, then 20 Mammoths) loaded to the eyeballs with supplies and crap, some of those industrials would carry enough minerals to build fleet of T1 cruisers and fittings for those for 'replacement' ships (as cruisers are smaller in mineral form than in packaged form). I would bring also healthy dose of T1 'exploration' frigate BPC's and perhaps 3 to 5 cov ops. Often it's more sesnible to carry ammo in ready-to-use form than in minerals and building on spot as in some cases minerals that make ammo are 5 times bigger than ammo (like terror assault missiles).
From POS arrays I would bring for sure ammo and drone assembly arrays, ship maintenance and corporate hangar. Strontsium is bulky but at least full day of it would make also sense, as it will allow for timely evacuation of most precious assets (ie, load your althaulers to the eyeballs with loot and log em off) should you get hit by surpise attack in your low activity timezone. Small ship assembly would make also sense, as most likely you would like to build frigates and cruisers on spot. Module assembly is somewhat iffy as it might be easier to just bring spare modules with you for your 10 man team than drag that bulky thing and all the BPC out there 'just in case'.
I would not bother with Orca if you already plan to erect POS, as regular haulers offer far creater capacity per wormhole (considering that wormholes will have mass limits) than Orca or freighters. And POS ship maintenance array would already offer you ability to refit.
Should you find 'good moon' it might make also sense to drag moon miner or two with you and few silos.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.02.18 17:33:00 -
[22]
I'm not going to tell someone not to challange themselves. I'm just trying to make sure you know what you're getting into.
You won't have to defend your low sec POS. If you put it on an mineralless moon no one will ever attack it. There's no gain so why risk it. **** doesn't just happen. **** takes time and effort. No one is going to blow your POS for fun.
Also volume is not the issue you think it is. WH work on mass not volume. Look at the mass on deep space transports. They're about a cruiser and a half and hold 25K+. Moving goods doesn't use much mass. About 125K m3 of goods can be moved for the same WH cost as a single battle ship. That's over twice what a tower can hold.
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Braaage
Ministry of Craft
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Posted - 2009.02.18 17:39:00 -
[23]
Don't forget there are 2,500 Wormhole space solarsystems and wormholes are random.
To set up a POS in 1 wormhole space solarsystem (assuming W-space solarsystems have moons) would not be too much of a problem, however, if you leave that W-Space solarsystem getting back to the very same solarsystem has a very slight chance IMO.
So get ready to leave millions of POS equipment offline floating in space that wont last too long if someone finds it. --
POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, Boosters, EA EVE Database, Character Generator & more |
Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.02.18 17:41:00 -
[24]
Now that's the sort of thinking I was looking for Carniflex.
I agree that with a POS an orca becomes a luxury, not a necessity. But it might make the surveying multiple systems while you look for the "right" system to colonize easier. That said I'm sure one orca should do it.
I'm thinking that defense for the system should be build on site, since you can only guarantee one WH entry. So I was thinking refining arrays and shipbuild arrays as well, at least for BS. More longterm a cap-ship array would allow you to build carriers for system defense.
I really wish I could think of a way around the refining array, but I can't come up with one that doesn't involve a re-supply run for minerals. I think you simply must mine on site to produce the sort of mineral numbers you'll need to colonize a system.
I also think you'll need to plan on bringing in most of the other arrays on your first re-supply run. You'll want a minimum number of arrays that are capable of building up a defendable system so you can load the rest of your cargo space with fuel/stront/NPC-goods needed to actually run your arrays. The only initial need during the bootstrap period is to bring enough that you can then construct a defensible system. Anything beyond that, for example reactions and moon min arrays, can be held for the first re-supply run.
Basically I'm trying to minimize the kit required for an industrial boot-strap. I know we can't get away from fuel and npc goods for re-supply, but I'd like to build as self-sufficient an economy as is possible with that restriction, and figuring out the minimal investment in boot-strapping equipment will allow for smaller more agile fleets in the surveying phase.
I totally agree, a day's worth strontium is a necessity. Having an evac plan in case of seige is just as good an idea.
A question, I thought wormholes were keying off volume and time, not mass and time? Have I missed a linky?
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.02.18 17:49:00 -
[25]
War Fairy: I totally wouldn't put a POS on a valueless moon. If the intial surveys can't find a good moon to mine we'll keep looking. Assume the system I choose IS going to be valuable. In fact assume it's valuable enough that a 0.0 alliance would be happy to seize it from me. What I need to boot-strap up to is a defense that will hold against that kind of assault. The initial size of the surveying expedition will need to build up to that, once the system reconnects to k-space we'll bring in more pods and supplies.
It WILL be a pain in the ass. I expect that.
Braage: I do expect re-supply to be a pain. There's no way I'd leave the POS or the system on a run. I'd wait until a route to k-space was found, then send alts running towards the wormhole already piloting cargo-ships with the goods for the first re-supply run. There will be no leaving of the system with valuable goods left in place, Period.
Eventually some folks will come out, to be sure. But my goal is to boot-strap a colonization effort. Not just support a surveying expedition.
Basically, I am pretty sure there's good isk in w-space. I want to TAKE it. I don't want to ask for it from an alliance. I don't want to have CCP give it to me on a silver plate. I want to go in there agressively and after searching for my target system seize the damn thing and fortify it until we can kill anything anyone tries to put in-system.
I guess that despite being a carebear there are some distinctly non-carebear "MINE, MINE, MINE!" sort of feeling in my heart. That's all to the good.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.02.18 17:59:00 -
[26]
Edited by: War Fairy on 18/02/2009 17:59:24
Originally by: Braaage Don't forget there are 2,500 Wormhole space solarsystems and wormholes are random.
To set up a POS in 1 wormhole space solarsystem (assuming W-space solarsystems have moons) would not be too much of a problem, however, if you leave that W-Space solarsystem getting back to the very same solarsystem has a very slight chance IMO.
So get ready to leave millions of POS equipment offline floating in space that wont last too long if someone finds it.
That's right. Abandonded POSes are abandonded. That's why you don't abandon them.
Is there a point you're trying to make?
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.02.18 18:14:00 -
[27]
Edited by: War Fairy on 18/02/2009 18:15:50 I meant put the reactor on an empty, of minerals, low sec moon.
With everything you want to do you're looking at a large POS. I wouldn't bother with guns. They're a waste of cargo and fuel. Guns don't save POSes. Fleets save POSes. A large POS without dreads is very annoying. If you're on a valuable moon and a large alliance wants to take it. They will take it unless you can bring an equaly large fleet.
Worm holes are mass or time. The linky you missed is the dev blog on worm holes.
You do realize that there are no static belts in w-space right? How does this factor into your build everything idea? Is it not better to fly BSes in?
You're going to need the new T3 POS modules. How much CPU are you up to? Is this going to fit on one POS?
Has anyone mentioned BPOs and reactions?
Have you set up a POS before?
Edit: If your going for isk then you're doing it wrong and should seriously reconsider. The small moon miner and harvesting sleepers will get you isk. The only reason to be doing what you propose is for the challange.
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Braaage
Ministry of Craft
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Posted - 2009.02.18 18:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: War Fairy Edited by: War Fairy on 18/02/2009 17:59:24 That's right. Abandonded POSes are abandonded. That's why you don't abandon them.
Is there a point you're trying to make?
Of course but you obviously don't see it, not everyone follows forums, goes on Sisi or even reads Dev blogs. So some people will venture into W-space with POSs and hope they can leave and get back to the same W-space solarsystem. It's going to happen it always does after patches, people never learn sometimes .
That aside players are still assuming W-space will have moons. --
POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, Boosters, EA EVE Database, Character Generator & more |
Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.02.18 18:56:00 -
[29]
I'm mostly in it for the challenge, and the belief that CCP has seeded some very high-value targets in w-space and that the early bird will get that metaphorical worm. My belief could be irrational.
We run a trio of POS in Empire at the moment. I suspect serious exploitation of w-space resources will require large towers. But it's the intial boot-strapping phase I'm thinking about right at the moment, or at least in this thread. (I grant you we are discussing defense and long-term exploitatioin on our own) The CPU requirements for the t3 arrays are of concern to me, but I haven't seen any info on it yet, so I'll continue to be concerned but keep on planning.
I totally agree about guns. Not worth bringing on the initial fleet. Might be worth importing later on depending on how often your system connects to either the boundary layer or to k-space directly. But surely not on the initial fleet insertion.
I am a little concerned about the print aspects of running reactions and production. In particular I'd prefer to keep BPOs out of the equation and stick w. BPCs if possible. I do not consider even a strongly held w-space system as "safe" for high-value BPO storage. Regarding reactions for t3 materials I'm less concerned, we know the prints for those will need to be reverse engineered, and doing it locally strikes me as better than running goods in and out of w-space.
I don't think you can count on flying BS in, given the mass restrictions. You would be reducing the number of WH your surveying fleet could explore, and risking an incomplete insertion on your target system when you did find it. I think you need to find a system that has enough scannable belts that you can mine the mins for your defense fleet.
I do read the dev-blogs. I'm just apparently a forgetful moron. I could've sworn they'd said volume instead of mass for what wormholes would pass.
I know, you're still hot on running the reaction in low-sec. But if we run it in w-space we can then use the gasses and mins for reactions there, and not worry about supply runs. Then reverse engineer the components and you could start production in situ as well. The goal is to export finished goods, which are much higher on the isk/mass ratio, and I'd prefer to reserve mass for re-supply, not transport of raw materials.
I think you're letting yourself get side-tracked with the long-term logistical implications. Which is good if you're planning an expedition yourself. And if you are I'd love to talk more w. you about it. But what I'm trying to figure out here is the minimum kit to bring for the initial boot-strapping expedition. Once re-supply is achieved then the logistics can become a primary concern. For the moment figuring out IF it's possible, and what hurdles I'll need to overcome, is more important.
(and your objections do help me figure out what may lie in wait for me and the expedition, so thanks for raising them, I'd rather talk them out with you and the rest of us than try to figure them out while trapped in w-space.)
Braage: The question of moons has been answered. CCP Whisper has talked, on several occasions, about there being dyspro moons and other kinds of moons, in w-space. In most ways it's exactly like k-space null-sec, except no sovereignty.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.18 19:22:00 -
[30]
Considering the relatively low mass of industrials (yep, wormholes do count mass and time, not volume) I see no serious problems on getting enough 'stuff' in there for it to be worthwhile, unless you are planning on colonizing 'deep' wormhole where logistiks can be really really serious pain. Ie. system where you most likley get links only to other w-space systems. There is no problems of getting few months of fuel and most needed arrays into the system with first hole.
For first tier systems importing minerals for ship construction would be propably easier than mining on spot (assuming the sleepers are worth any semireasonable isk) unless you fancy the idea of mining veld and refining it at 75% efficency while under harassment from advanced AI sleepers that use all kinds of clever tricks to gank your miners while they tank your guards.
As long as you can probe down outgoing wormhole all you need to do is to peek out with cov ops alt and move your hauling alts in relevant system in k-space and warp to your cov ops alt. As you will have several months of pos fuel then you have plenty of time to find k-space system that is not 60j deep in hostile 0.0.
As far as capitals go, considering the copy speeds of capital prints and bulk of materials involved I highly doubt that constructing capitals in w-space would be reasonable. Remember - alternative is to farm (supposedly) uberprofitable sleepers or to mine insane amounts of veld in 0.0 equivalent space.
The interesting question however is - is there hauler spawns out there in w-space ? If there is then forget about Hulks for anything other than gas mining, haulers drop insane amounts of low ends and all ya need is hauler.
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