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Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
579
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 15:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Think & Act Galactically.
Trade LOCALLY.
Lets break Jita forever. There isn't anything left for you to do to Carebears. -áGo, kill them some more. They're like fungus or bacteria, they won't die and they won't stop. All you have to show for years of organized harassment campaigns against them is ... nothing. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 15:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
When did the RL hippies get money for Eve? |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 15:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? Needs more tears. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1361
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 15:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve?
This guy. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
581
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 15:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve?
Anyone who paid their $10 for SomethingAwful. There isn't anything left for you to do to Carebears. -áGo, kill them some more. They're like fungus or bacteria, they won't die and they won't stop. All you have to show for years of organized harassment campaigns against them is ... nothing. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 15:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve?
Sorry, correction.
When did the Occupy hippies get RL money to buy computers to play Eve? |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 15:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? Anyone who paid their $10 for SomethingAwful.
What kind of idiot would pay for a Something Awful forum account?
I did things right and got my SA account way back before you even had to pay for them.
Needs more tears. |
Wolf Kruol
Capsuleer Legions Of New Eden GREATER ITAMO MAFIA
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 15:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
More Space hippies... Run... |
Mark Androcius
40
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 15:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve?
I would guess the kind that doesn't yet have the skill to rack up uhm, gees, let me calculate 500 million divided by about 25 days of actually being able to play = 20 million isk per day.
And if you ( like a lot of players i hope ) have a job or school to attend to, that means only 2 maybe 3 hours, which is uhm, let me calculate....... 20 million divided by 3 = 6.666.666 per hour that you'd have to make.
And yes, i know, i make 15 million+ ( at least ) doing something as mundane as lvl 4 sec missions, but it took me at least half a year to train up the skills to do so. That and of course the time you need to get a feel for the game ( yeah, i know there are mighty gods of EVE, who knew how to play EVE, even before they ever heard of it ) Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
326
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? I would guess the kind that doesn't yet have the skill to rack up uhm, gees, let me calculate 500 million divided by about 25 days of actually being able to play = 20 million isk per day. And if you ( like a lot of players i hope ) have a job or school to attend to, that means only 2 maybe 3 hours, which is uhm, let me calculate....... 20 million divided by 3 = 6.666.666 per hour that you'd have to make. And yes, i know, i make 15 million+ ( at least ) doing something as mundane as lvl 4 sec missions, but it took me at least half a year to train up the skills to do so. That and of course the time you need to get a feel for the game ( yeah, i know there are mighty gods of EVE, who knew how to play EVE, even before they ever heard of it )
I make 500m - 1 b in 5 mins if I'm lucky =) To the whiners :-áCCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" CCP Recurve "However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are"
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Pillowtalk
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
141
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve?
People who want to have more to be proud of in their lives than "HAHA we gotz 60 tech moonz!" Don't violence me bro! |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
So spending your hard earned cash on pretend spaceships is something to be proud of now? Right, check, got it. Needs more tears. |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:So spending your hard earned cash on pretend spaceships is something to be proud of now? Right, check, got it.
Someone has to or you'd never have a plex to mooch off of. -á |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Well then I thank you for being so good at real life and so terrible at Eve. Needs more tears. |
Hortense Sledgemallet
Hedion University Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pillowtalk wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? People who want to have more to be proud of in their lives than "HAHA we gotz 60 tech moonz!"
pwned! |
March rabbit
Trojan Trolls Red Alliance
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? me.
cuz i can.
while you don't |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Oh please I wouldn't sell my earnings to a wretch like you, besides who says I'm paying. -á |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
63
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm buying all your PLEX up right now baby. Oh yeah you like that don't you?
Needs more tears. |
Skorpynekomimi
Omega Vector
176
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve?
I do, because ~-ú30 for three months per account isn't actually much money, compared to other things. Things such as my hourly wage. Some people have fancy mobile phones, I play EVE, and get by with a phone that's just a phone. |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
373
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:46:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hortense Sledgemallet wrote:Pillowtalk wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? People who want to have more to be proud of in their lives than "HAHA we gotz 60 tech moonz!" pwned!
The 90's called and they want your meme and hairstyle back. WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |
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Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 16:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Skorpynekomimi wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? I do, because ~-ú30 for three months per account isn't actually much money, compared to other things. Things such as my hourly wage. Some people have fancy mobile phones, I play EVE, and get by with a phone that's just a phone.
Can you play EVE on your phone? Or at least post on the forums? This is important.
Needs more tears. |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve?
The kind who doesn't play enough to fool with plex.
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Nephilius
Knights of Athena Star Council
362
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Serge Bastana wrote:Hortense Sledgemallet wrote:Pillowtalk wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? People who want to have more to be proud of in their lives than "HAHA we gotz 60 tech moonz!" pwned! The 90's called and they want your meme and hairstyle back.
I think that's the mid to late 60s on the hairstyle, and post y2k on the meme. But thanks for playing, have a cookie.
I pay real money for Eve because I can afford to. I don't need an alliance to hold my hand and pay my way for me. I love flying titans in Jita, setting bubbles in Rens,-áor firing off bombs from my stealth bomber-áin Dodixie!-á Just think, if Eve wasn't a sandbox, none of this would be possible! |
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
986
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve?
Me. Because I earn money faster IRL than in eve. About 30- 45 minutes of IRL work for a plex is more efficient than one evening of incursion grinding.
-.- |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
451
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Think & Act Galactically.
Trade LOCALLY.
Lets break Jita forever. CCP would love it if people would not just always use Jita, I'm sure you can get some support for such a campaign. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Mark Androcius
40
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nephilius wrote:I think that's the mid to late 60s on the hairstyle, and post y2k on the meme. But thanks for playing, have a cookie.
I pay real money for Eve because I can afford to. I don't need an alliance to hold my hand and pay my way for me.
That + you're not a virtual transvestite.
+10 for you Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
JD No7
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Wait, someone is ragging on people that pay to play?
What a muppet.
CCP gets more real income = more development = better Eve. Paying for this game is pennies compared to most other activities these days.
I'd much rather pay to play, than play to pay. The latter is quite ridiculous, the former exists as an option for those who cannot exercise the latter.
And I earn shed loads of ISK. That I spend on stuff I want in game. |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
So Eve Online is now your second job? That you are paying for the privilege of doing. With the income of your first job. Needs more tears. |
Mark Androcius
40
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:So Eve Online is now your second job? That you are paying for the privilege of doing. With the income of your first job.
So, you actually don't have a job then? Wow, that's so..... NOT unexpected. Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
That's exactly right. I am actually a professional EVE-O poster. You should be able to tell from my high quality posts. Needs more tears. |
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Kairos Antilles
The Scope Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? I would guess the kind that doesn't yet have the skill to rack up uhm, gees, let me calculate 500 million divided by about 25 days of actually being able to play = 20 million isk per day. And if you ( like a lot of players i hope ) have a job or school to attend to, that means only 2 maybe 3 hours, which is uhm, let me calculate....... 20 million divided by 3 = 6.666.666 per hour that you'd have to make. And yes, i know, i make 15 million+ ( at least ) doing something as mundane as lvl 4 sec missions, but it took me at least half a year to train up the skills to do so. That and of course the time you need to get a feel for the game ( yeah, i know there are mighty gods of EVE, who knew how to play EVE, even before they ever heard of it )
75 hours of WORK to fund something that is supposed to be something other than WORK. 75 hours to come up with the equivalent of $15 subscription cost. Your time is worth $0.20/hour to you?
Yikes... |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
707
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
Hippys are why you can act like total butts and they don't put you in a straight jacket and lobotomize you anymore... come to think of it, maybe I AM opposed to hippys after all.
Enjoy your ROCK you right-wing, knuckle-draggin', Family Guy watchin' throwbacks to the lizard age. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kairos Antilles wrote: 75 hours of WORK to fund something that is supposed to be something other than WORK. 75 hours to come up with the equivalent of $15 subscription cost. Your time is worth $0.20/hour to you?
Yikes...
It boggles the mind.
|
Mark Androcius
40
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:53:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kairos Antilles wrote:Mark Androcius wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? I would guess the kind that doesn't yet have the skill to rack up uhm, gees, let me calculate 500 million divided by about 25 days of actually being able to play = 20 million isk per day. And if you ( like a lot of players i hope ) have a job or school to attend to, that means only 2 maybe 3 hours, which is uhm, let me calculate....... 20 million divided by 3 = 6.666.666 per hour that you'd have to make. And yes, i know, i make 15 million+ ( at least ) doing something as mundane as lvl 4 sec missions, but it took me at least half a year to train up the skills to do so. That and of course the time you need to get a feel for the game ( yeah, i know there are mighty gods of EVE, who knew how to play EVE, even before they ever heard of it ) 75 hours of WORK to fund something that is supposed to be something other than WORK. 75 hours to come up with the equivalent of $15 subscription cost. Your time is worth $0.20/hour to you? Yikes...
What? who said anything about work? The only thing i stated was that you'd need to play EVE 75 hours per month, making 6.666.666 isk per hour to be able to play it without using real life money.
Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
So I make more than enough ISK to pay for 3 accounts with little effort... And I'm a Goon. We're terrible at EVE you know. You guys must be really bad at this game. Needs more tears. |
Botleten
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
278
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 17:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
Oh look... thread # 124,794 about goons. |
Mark Androcius
40
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 18:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:So I make more than enough ISK to pay for 3 accounts with little effort... And I'm a Goon. We're terrible at EVE you know. You guys must be really bad at this game.
Uhu, i make 3700 euro's a month excluding bonuses. Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 18:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:So I make more than enough ISK to pay for 3 accounts with little effort... And I'm a Goon. We're terrible at EVE you know. You guys must be really bad at this game. Uhu, i make 3700 euro's a month excluding bonuses.
Cool. Go buy some PLEX so I can keep not spending the money I earn on playing with spaceships. Needs more tears. |
Phugoid
BHEI Galactic Construction
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 18:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
nvm... failed repley, soz -áObergruppenfuhrer |
Whambot
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 18:30:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve?
Those of us with lives outside of our parent's basement |
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Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 18:33:00 -
[41] - Quote
Yeah well I can just about squeeze myself in through the basement window so it's basically my own flat and I have a bolt on the door and everything. Needs more tears. |
Whambot
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 18:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:Yeah well I can just about squeeze myself in through the basement window so it's basically my own flat and I have a bolt on the door and everything.
Thats a pretty sweet deal. Plus free food |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 19:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
Whambot wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:Yeah well I can just about squeeze myself in through the basement window so it's basically my own flat and I have a bolt on the door and everything. Thats a pretty sweet deal. Plus free food
Hey I'm no mooch. I can buy my own cheetos see, since I don't pay for EVE Online. Needs more tears. |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
102
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 22:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:Whambot wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:Yeah well I can just about squeeze myself in through the basement window so it's basically my own flat and I have a bolt on the door and everything. Thats a pretty sweet deal. Plus free food Hey I'm no mooch. I can buy my own cheetos see, since I don't pay for EVE Online.
And nothing else. -á |
Rath Kelbore
The Six-Pack Syndicate EVE Animal Control
174
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 22:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
The Truth I plan on living forever.......so far, so good. |
Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1283
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:05:00 -
[46] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Think & Act Galactically.
Trade LOCALLY.
Lets break Jita forever.
Nah, I'm building a nice stockpile to sell in Jita during the occupation. To the invaders. To the victims. Whoever has isk.
|
Gonada
Dark Club
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
I pay to play eve, sorry bout that. :-)
But then again, i have a life outside eve, dont live in my parents basement, have a hot wife, an awsome kid and make enough to pay for two accounts a month in less than an hour. And i love drinking rum :-) Which reminds me.......... |
John Fumble
Jimmy Riggers Inc. GekkoState.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:23:00 -
[48] - Quote
Hopefully there are a good enough number of people that pay for their sub simply becouse they want to support the game.
And I really truly hope that we wont get to the point when everyone paying for their subs is seen as eve players of lesser quality.
Support your game and be proud of doing so.
|
EVE Stig
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
134
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
Id like to see CCP post what % of the population of the game pays with PLEX thatd be interesting and may encourage other games to adopt the idea "Some say that he is actually dead, but the Grim Reaper is too afraid to tell him." "Some say he is the 3rd member of Daft Punk and he did the vocals of "Technologic" song. All we know is,he's called EVE Stig"! |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
118
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 07:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Kairos Antilles wrote:Mark Androcius wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? I would guess the kind that doesn't yet have the skill to rack up uhm, gees, let me calculate 500 million divided by about 25 days of actually being able to play = 20 million isk per day. And if you ( like a lot of players i hope ) have a job or school to attend to, that means only 2 maybe 3 hours, which is uhm, let me calculate....... 20 million divided by 3 = 6.666.666 per hour that you'd have to make. And yes, i know, i make 15 million+ ( at least ) doing something as mundane as lvl 4 sec missions, but it took me at least half a year to train up the skills to do so. That and of course the time you need to get a feel for the game ( yeah, i know there are mighty gods of EVE, who knew how to play EVE, even before they ever heard of it ) 75 hours of WORK to fund something that is supposed to be something other than WORK. 75 hours to come up with the equivalent of $15 subscription cost. Your time is worth $0.20/hour to you? Yikes... What? who said anything about work? The only thing i stated was that you'd need to play EVE 75 hours per month, making 6.666.666 isk per hour to be able to play it without using real life money.
Poor logic, weak math. You base it upon a single account and "doing" in the game.
Run an indy alt - POS or highsec slots for R&D and production: 1-2 hours a week onlline, including move time and sell orders. Run a marketeer alt -- a couple hours a week max - more or less, same as above, doing long term buy & sell.
23 hours a day for market activity, 24 hours a day for research & production - then re-run your numbers. You'll come up with perhaps 8 hours a month logged on to "earn" more than 2 billion a month.
Initial start up of it is the only bottleneck portion but normalize those time-numbers across a few months and they shift to minutes.
It's really not RL time-intensive and why "get alts" is a huge thing in this game. |
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Mark Androcius
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 08:55:00 -
[51] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Poor logic, weak math. You base it upon a single account and "doing" in the game.
Run an indy alt - POS or highsec slots for R&D and production: 1-2 hours a week onlline, including move time and sell orders. Run a marketeer alt -- a couple hours a week max - more or less, same as above, doing long term buy & sell.
23 hours a day for market activity, 24 hours a day for research & production - then re-run your numbers. You'll come up with perhaps 8 hours a month logged on to "earn" more than 2 billion a month.
Initial start up of it is the only bottleneck portion but normalize those time-numbers across a few months and they shift to minutes.
It's really not RL time-intensive and why "get alts" is a huge thing in this game.
Mark Androcius wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? I would guess the kind that doesn't yet have the SKILL to rack up uhm, gees, let me calculate 500 million divided by about 25 days of actually being able to play = 20 million isk per day.
I've bolded it up for you. I wasn't talking bout myself, rather, i was talking about new players and or players that don't want more then 1 account, did you miss that somehow?
Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
Waxfire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 08:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Hmmm and i tought PLEX came from people paying CCP for them ... with real cash ... |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
88
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
ITT we post about how well paid, popular and successful we are in real life to impress other people from THE INTERNET.
Needs more tears. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
587
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:What kind of idiot actually pays real money to play Eve? Anyone who paid their $10 for SomethingAwful. What kind of idiot would pay for a Something Awful forum account? I did things right and got my SA account way back before you even had to pay for them.
Idiots just like YOU. There isn't anything left for you to do to Carebears. -áGo, kill them some more. They're like fungus or bacteria, they won't die and they won't stop. All you have to show for years of organized harassment campaigns against them is ... nothing. |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
89
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
Touch+¬.
That's French for 'You're terrible please stop posting' right? Needs more tears. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
587
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:32:00 -
[56] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:
Enjoy your ROCK you right-wing, knuckle-draggin', Family Guy watchin' throwbacks to the lizard age.
Hey, Family Guy is hilarious ! (WHil Wheaton's Cool-WHipped WHeat Thins.....) There isn't anything left for you to do to Carebears. -áGo, kill them some more. They're like fungus or bacteria, they won't die and they won't stop. All you have to show for years of organized harassment campaigns against them is ... nothing. |
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