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xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 18:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been doing incursions for a long time now.
I've never really subscribed to any of the awesome "blitz" fleets. My policy has always been to accept anyone flying a ship that will perform the role needed without being a safety risk
I am glad that these blitz fleets have been slowed down a bit, If they are slowed enough it will be a disincentive for them to grind as much and ease the pressure off some Vanguard systems.
There are 3 ways I could see that they could have done this very effectively.
- Financial - Reduce income per site
- Formatting - Mix up the waves so that there are more Frigates in OTA's needing killed and Cruisers in NCO's
- Bigger Waves - Make it that you have to kill every NPC in the wave for the next to spawn and only complete the site
Personally I think one or 2 of these, used in combination would have done the job in reducing the elite fleets from having such a boring line up. So it would make them more likely to bring a mixture of Cruisers and Battleships.
But Implementing all 3 I can only see as a disruption to everyone wanting to take part in Incursions. I was in a fleet earlier and we were taking about 10 minutes for an OTA with the pay out decreased it is actually possible for me to make more ISK doing lvl 4 missions. And those don't require me to buddy up with 9 other players in order to make my income. |
Aratani
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 19:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Several high-end legion fleets, and fleets with purely shiny faction battleships have been talking about their current vanguard income being only slightly better than soloing l4's. A few public fleets from BTL pub (public shield incursion channel) were reporting doing one site every 15 minutes on average, netting them around 37m isk/hr assuming the fleet runs non-stop.
If the current changes remain in effect, vanguard systems will pretty much become a ghost town. Public fleets won't be formed anymore due to solo l4's becoming more profitable for them compared to doing vanguard sites in their current form.
So unless at least some of the changes are reverted, or possibly bounties added to sansha, these changes will pretty much destroy incursions for the average player wanting to hop into a vanguard fleet for a few hours a week, the shiny blitz-fleets will be able to break the isk/hr of doing level 4's and will most likely be the only fleets in incursion vanguard systems a couple weeks from now.
I guess we'll have to wait and see whether assaults or headquarters can become the new "thing" for more serious incursion runners, but at the moment it seems that the majority of casual incursion pilots are getting completely shafted by the new changes. |
Svodola Darkfury
Born-2-Kill Northern Coalition.
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 19:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'm actually a little surprised they did both the randomization of spawns AND the ISK nerf. I think one or the other would have been fine; the randomization is the most effective though; it slows down the blitzers but gives the normal players a reason to actually do VGs.
Sad days. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1365
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 19:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
I hear there's good money to be made in wormholes. Just be careful. They say people can actually shoot at you out there.
(edit: the isk nerf is the first part of an across-the-board bounty nerf. The blitz nerf is to renorm payouts and discourage the vanguard farming that has gone on for so long. They're two fixes for two different issues.) It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Freundliches Feuer
AfterMath. Broken Toys
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 20:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Stupid carebears moaning again |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
100
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 21:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
+ 10 to CCP for fixing incursions.
Now give bigger reward for lo and 0.0 systems.
|
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 21:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Oh joy \o/ |
gfldex
487
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 21:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:And those don't require me to buddy up with 9 other players in order to make my income.
But I thought folk are running incursions for the fun and social experience? Don't say it was just all about the money! When someone burns down your sandcaste, bring sausages. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 22:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
gfldex wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:And those don't require me to buddy up with 9 other players in order to make my income. But I thought folk are running incursions for the fun and social experience? Don't say it was just all about the money!
I still prefer incursions to missions for that very fact... But if it's discouraging other people from coming to play. Then it will mean longer times to form fleets, people will have less patience since the reward for waiting around to form a fleet won't be providing the same reward as something they can achieve on their own.
One of the things I love doing is bringing newbies into incursions... and honestly the easiest way is to show them that it's better money than sitting on their own.
And side note... I'm not bitching or whining about any point in particular. I like the 3 different changes that CCP have used. I just think 1 or 2 would have been sufficient. That all 3 in combination will make Vanguards a lot less popular. And that it's already hard enough to form an Assault or HQ fleet... but when you don't have a pool of active players currently in the area doing VG's it's going to make it a lot slower process forming the larger fleets also. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
593
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Try a rogue drone level 4 now; crap payout bounties, ****** salvage of course, and no loot what so ever but one ****** drone AI chip from rogue drone harrasment, would of been awesome if standard meta 1-4 dropped (why is it that CCP can remove mods from loot tables, but they can't move loot tables around? ). Now...nothing of note to even want do a drone mission anymore.
Reducing the drone compounds to 1/5 or 1/10 would still have more value for rogue drones while still giving miners the advantage...but this is CCP we are talking about so don't stop there: Nerf bounties across the board 95% of their value, increase 20% non-skill affecting tax, and slap isk faucets into the ground. Make players cry everytime they buy 1 unit of small Anti-matter ammo . To top it off for the PVP types that destroy another player ship; no loot drops, no salvage from the wrecks, nothing but a killmail for your effort...in effect it becomes unprofitable to even activate your guns anywhere in EVE and it becomes that big isk sink everybody wanted |
|
Caldari Citizen 786478786
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:...this is CCP we are talking about so don't stop there: Nerf bounties across the board 95% of their value, increase 20% non-skill affecting tax, and slap isk faucets into the ground. Make players cry everytime they buy 1 unit of small Anti-matter ammo . To top it off for the PVP types that destroy another player ship; no loot drops, no salvage from the wrecks, nothing but a killmail for your effort...in effect it becomes unprofitable to even activate your guns anywhere in EVE and it becomes that big isk sink everybody wanted
I was going to ask you to share with me some of what you're smoking, but then I remembered the stuff I smoke doesn't turn me into a raving lunatic. |
gfldex
488
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:And that it's already hard enough to form an Assault or HQ fleet... but when you don't have a pool of active players currently in the area doing VG's it's going to make it a lot slower process forming the larger fleets also.
Or the change will force players to min/max assautls and HQs. That would lead to even more ISK/h then what we used to have.
When someone burns down your sandcaste, bring sausages. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Aratani wrote:Several high-end legion fleets, and fleets with purely shiny faction battleships have been talking about their current vanguard income being only slightly better than soloing l4's. A few public fleets from BTL pub (public shield incursion channel) were reporting doing one site every 15 minutes on average, netting them around 37m isk/hr assuming the fleet runs non-stop.
Sounds like CCP got the nerf perfectly.
Aratani wrote:Public fleets won't be formed anymore due to solo l4's becoming more profitable for them compared to doing vanguard sites in their current form.
So unless at least some of the changes are reverted, or possibly bounties added to sansha, these changes will pretty much destroy incursions for the average player wanting to hop into a vanguard fleet for a few hours a week, the shiny blitz-fleets will be able to break the isk/hr of doing level 4's and will most likely be the only fleets in incursion vanguard systems a couple weeks from now.
Thanks for confirming that the "social" aspect of Incursions was all a lie and the only thing you care about is isk payout per hr and nothing else. In fact, these changes give you more time shooting and less time warping around so that's more time to "socialize" and be in a fun and interesting group of people.
I foresee a lot of useless alt accounts not being renewed with PLEX which will only mean good things. |
EVE Stig
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
134
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:I have been doing incursions for a long time now. I've never really subscribed to any of the awesome "blitz" fleets. My policy has always been to accept anyone flying a ship that will perform the role needed without being a safety risk I am glad that these blitz fleets have been slowed down a bit, If they are slowed enough it will be a disincentive for them to grind as much and ease the pressure off some Vanguard systems. There are 3 ways I could see that they could have done this very effectively.
- Financial - Reduce income per site
- Formatting - Mix up the waves so that there are more Frigates in OTA's needing killed and Cruisers in NCO's
- Bigger Waves - Make it that you have to kill every NPC in the wave for the next to spawn and only complete the site
Personally I think one or 2 of these, used in combination would have done the job in reducing the elite fleets from having such a boring line up. So it would make them more likely to bring a mixture of Cruisers and Battleships. But Implementing all 3 I can only see as a disruption to everyone wanting to take part in Incursions. I was in a fleet earlier and we were taking about 10 minutes for an OTA with the pay out decreased it is actually possible for me to make more ISK doing lvl 4 missions. And those don't require me to buddy up with 9 other players in order to make my income.
personally I think they should remove them. The in game story reason for them is stretching pretty thin... Dude cant have INFINITE resources and if he DID why the hell is he shooting little pinprick incursions and not a full scale invasion? Same thought Ive had os the Borg in Star Trek... One cube made it all the way to Earth, they have THOUSANDS of those why they didnt just send a few hundred at the Federation (other than the obvious "bt that would kill the story")?
If they did that of course, there would be massive QQ, probably a bunch og ppl leaving the game then CCP would have to cave to the pressure an put em back in (summer of rage all over again - btw, this is a HORRIBLE position for a gaming company to be in. Its good they listen to us but at the same time, when they cant remove bad things from their own game cause theyre afraid of the players leaving). OR they take them out, ignore the pressure to put them back in and the ppl in null go back to QQing about the isk lvl 4 missions generate while nomming on their tech moons.
"Some say that he is actually dead, but the Grim Reaper is too afraid to tell him." "Some say he is the 3rd member of Daft Punk and he did the vocals of "Technologic" song. All we know is,he's called EVE Stig"! |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 00:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
gfldex wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:And that it's already hard enough to form an Assault or HQ fleet... but when you don't have a pool of active players currently in the area doing VG's it's going to make it a lot slower process forming the larger fleets also. Or the change will force players to min/max assautls and HQs. That would lead to even more ISK/h then what we used to have.
People did this before, the problem is that 1 of the 3 Assault site takes twice as long for normal fleet and there is no blitz fleet taking away this burden like in VGs. HQ is simply to big for complete random fleets. I done a fair share of Logi FCing in HQs(posting late posters myself, helping on bug reports for "You can't lock this, it is feature not a bug, regards CCP." or simply laggy situations for everybody evolved, doing all the reimbursements etc.) and it is a pain to explain the do/don't every 2. site when 1-2 Logis leave and get replaced. Don't compare it to Assaults or VGs, it is a complete other ballgame with the limits in locking and watch list in place, making 10-12 Logis work together as a team quite a bit more complicated. This might shift, providing more players that know the basics, similar to VGs this days, ending up there but there is still a lot more organisation needed. At least compared to normal VG or assault fleets where you simply assume everybody knows what they do, and even if not it is trivial to compensate her mistakes, making smooth runs possible with random people. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
50
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 00:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships. |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 01:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships.
The ground breaking days of a eve as pvp mmo have ended years ago(wtz, nano/web nerf, etc.). I for myself do miss them.
Incision is actually a good thing since it makes PVE a multi player environment in a MMO. I like the WOW reference, however everybody that did both a lot might know that there are a lot of differences. Actually if you go for the maximum grind factor Incursion can best WOW all day long, since there are no valor point or gear limits and it is actually competitive compared to "please suck a little bit less this time" LFG. |
Connaght Badasaz
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 01:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Looks like Eve discovered Raiding. |
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 02:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sample of talk from lowsec:
(7:29:29 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: so incrusions are on hold until ccp fix things? (7:29:34 PM) LowsecIncursioner2: :911: (7:29:37 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: pretty much ya (7:29:43 PM) LowsecIncursioner4: nope theyre destroyed unless they unfuck their **** (7:29:55 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: IF ccp fixes things. they're so goddam idiotic they probably think they're fine. (7:30:24 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: glad i didn't buy that bling bling scimi yet (7:30:38 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: altho i already had most of the fittings... (7:31:48 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: my ni scorp was just delivered today :negative: (7:32:36 PM) LowsecIncursioner5: So is it just assaults or are all incursions donesky (7:32:47 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: Vanguards and Assaults. (7:33:10 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: so can the group continue (7:33:18 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: or thats it, we-¦re disbanding? (7:33:25 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: As the mechanics stands, incursions are dead. |
Spark Progenitori
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
If the intent of nerfing incurisons was to balance the risk/reward for highsec blitzing fleets, then the mechanics should have been changed specific to highsec incursions. This nerf makes incursions not worth anybody's time or effort, and no longer a social "endgame" of PVE in EVE. if you want the players of your game to enjoy the game, you have to give them balanced, worthwhile incentives as rewards. "defeating the sansha meanace" is hardly a reward when i could "defeat the serpentis menace" for more isk/hr |
|
Slightly Degotoga
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships. Exactly this.
Literally all that had to be done was to lower concord arrival times to that of a .5 in all high sec incursions and presto, no more blinged out nightmare or whatever fleets. Now anyone who runs incursions is just an idiot because they could be making more isk running ridiculously broken l4s missions.
Nicely done CCP. |
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
That's just adorable. |
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
Liliana Rahl wrote:That's just adorable.
What's adorable? The fact that CCP devoted a bunch of resources into developing a great social PVE experience and then nerfed it into the ground so absolutely NOBODY will run them? Ya, that's just adorable. |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
Trinity Six wrote: (7:33:25 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: As the mechanics stands, incursions are dead.
lol... really? Hell 0.0 ppl what you guys been crying about... they didnt need to remove them, just nerf em 10% an ppl wont touch them
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Please stop. Too many tears. My brain can't handle the amusement. |
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:[quote=Trinity Six] (7:33:25 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: As the mechanics stands, incursions are dead.
lol... really? Hell 0.0 ppl what you guys been crying about... they didnt need to remove them, just nerf em 10% an ppl wont touch them
it's more than 10%. 10% would have been fine. |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
My thoughts on Incursions in they should be a CONCORD free zone even when theyre in High sec.
The idea CONCORD can keep the peace when theres a pirate incursion going on is stupid
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Johann Zateki
Zateki Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Liliana Rahl wrote:Please stop. Too many tears. My brain can't handle the amusement.
Its only the second page. Your troll is bad and you should feel bad |
rareden
The Skunkworks
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
Courtesy of The Skunkworks,
Our work here is done |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
224
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
OP SUCCESS! |
|
MadShade
Atomic Biohazard
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
After the nerf landed i see 5-6 sites up all the time in the incursion systems so it`s obvios that doing them it`s not worthed anymore. I think that the nerf is a bit to harsh since the payout/h is less than doing lvl 4 missions which is bad in my opinion because doing incursions means that you need atleast some kind of coordonation and you need to team up with 10-11 players so there`s no reason why a team work pay less isk/hour than soloing lvl4s. I really hope that CCP will revert some of the changes! |
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Johann Zateki wrote:Liliana Rahl wrote:Please stop. Too many tears. My brain can't handle the amusement. Its only the second page. Your troll is bad and you should feel bad
you replied
Op success. |
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 03:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:My thoughts on Incursions in they should be a CONCORD free zone even when theyre in High sec. The idea CONCORD can keep the peace when theres a pirate incursion going on is stupid Trinity Six wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:[quote=Trinity Six] (7:33:25 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: As the mechanics stands, incursions are dead. lol... really? Hell 0.0 ppl what you guys been crying about... they didnt need to remove them, just nerf em 10% an ppl wont touch them it's more than 10%. 10% would have been fine. Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS Adapt or die Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons.
Yes, they made it harder. We all agree that it should have been harder. You are generalizing the situation by making a blanket statement of 'durr dey made it harder. dat's a good ting." The fact that they're harder is great - we all agree with that. But wait - it takes 47 minutes to do a site now. With more people required to do it. Because of this, a social games' primary social PVE experience has been nerfed so much that it is unviable. In return, players are moving to a solo experience (level 4's or GASP! mining). Now do you see the issue here? MINING is now more profitable that a well-built social PVE experience.
"durr its harder now. me like". that's good. go back to ratting or mining in hisec now, pubbie.
Wow why do i bother with the general idiocy this forum provides. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 04:16:00 -
[34] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Aratani wrote:Several high-end legion fleets, and fleets with purely shiny faction battleships have been talking about their current vanguard income being only slightly better than soloing l4's. A few public fleets from BTL pub (public shield incursion channel) were reporting doing one site every 15 minutes on average, netting them around 37m isk/hr assuming the fleet runs non-stop. Sounds like CCP got the nerf perfectly. Aratani wrote:Public fleets won't be formed anymore due to solo l4's becoming more profitable for them compared to doing vanguard sites in their current form.
So unless at least some of the changes are reverted, or possibly bounties added to sansha, these changes will pretty much destroy incursions for the average player wanting to hop into a vanguard fleet for a few hours a week, the shiny blitz-fleets will be able to break the isk/hr of doing level 4's and will most likely be the only fleets in incursion vanguard systems a couple weeks from now. Thanks for confirming that the "social" aspect of Incursions was all a lie and the only thing you care about is isk payout per hr and nothing else. In fact, these changes give you more time shooting and less time warping around so that's more time to "socialize" and be in a fun and interesting group of people. I foresee a lot of useless alt accounts not being renewed with PLEX which will only mean good things.
If this sounds for you perfectly, than you were aiming vgs hitting between l3s and l4s. Are you really serious with this claim?
The second part of your post is simply invalid. First you start a personal attack, than you make a claim without any ground. Shooting, warping, docking, nothing of this stops me to socialize with my fleet mates. Actually I can even socialize with my corp mates while we all do separately level 4s.
Do you try to discuss or do you want to troll, because if you want to discuss the topic at hand, you are doing not very well.
Your Logical Fallacy is today: http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
|
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 04:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS
Adapt or die
Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons.
Actually vgs are not really that much harder. They just need more time to get cleared. How is it harder to watch npcs explode longer? If they would have increased npc damage or reduced our tanks, but keep the maximum possible isk the same (minus those 10%), than I could agree that its harder. But that is not what they changed, they just make us now shoot longer on rats.
Still you are right, adapt or die is the call and people already starting to adapt. Assaults are the new vgs. And vanguards are the new scouts. |
Johann Zateki
Zateki Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 04:32:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:
Actually vgs are not really that much harder. They just need more time to get cleared. How is it harder to watch npcs explode longer? If they would have increased npc damage or reduced our tanks, but keep the maximum possible isk the same (minus those 10%), than I could agree that its harder. But that is not what they changed, they just make us now shoot longer on rats.
Still you are right, adapt or die is the call and people already starting to adapt. Assaults are the new vgs. And vanguards are the new scouts.
From what I've heard assaults were also nerfed not buffed like they were supposed to be. |
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
125
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 04:42:00 -
[37] - Quote
i love all these people commenting on incursions that have prob never run them before ~~~ xD I also love how everyone who runs incursions is automatically assumed that their incursion runner is their only character and that's all they do in eve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i am dissapointed about the lack of tears though, i don't know what these other people are talking about i don't see any GOOD tears in here :/ squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle |
Aryana Ucksth
The First One is Always Free Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 05:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
C'mon CCP, the changes on Singularity were perfect, all you needed to do on top of that was reduce the payouts for nullsec to like 80%, reduce hisec to 50%, and leave lowsec at 100%. Sites would have been balanced at around 100m/hr for lowsec, armor vanguards and shield assaults could both run, and it would encourage hisec (no risk) runners and nullsec (no risk in friendly space) runners to come play in lowsec! It would have been fun!
Now nobody is going to run incursions with me anymore :( |
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 05:31:00 -
[39] - Quote
Aryana Ucksth wrote:C'mon CCP, the changes on Singularity were perfect, all you needed to do on top of that was reduce the payouts for nullsec to like 80%, reduce hisec to 50%, and leave lowsec at 100%. Sites would have been balanced at around 100m/hr for lowsec, armor vanguards and shield assaults could both run, and it would encourage hisec (no risk) runners and nullsec (no risk in friendly space) runners to come play in lowsec! It would have been fun!
Now nobody is going to run incursions with me anymore :(
This is fantastic. CCP do this. |
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
166
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 05:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
Aryana Ucksth wrote:C'mon CCP, the changes on Singularity were perfect, all you needed to do on top of that was reduce the payouts for nullsec to like 80%, reduce hisec to 50%, and leave lowsec at 100%. Sites would have been balanced at around 100m/hr for lowsec, armor vanguards and shield assaults could both run, and it would encourage hisec (no risk) runners and nullsec (no risk in friendly space) runners to come play in lowsec! It would have been fun!
Now nobody is going to run incursions with me anymore :(
hahahahaha, yeah, you try to make 90m/hr (payout nerf) with the new vanguard sites in nullsec, i dare you :P |
|
Lynn Deniera
The Foreign Legion Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 05:50:00 -
[41] - Quote
Trinity Six wrote:Sample of talk from lowsec:
(7:29:29 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: so incrusions are on hold until ccp fix things? (7:29:34 PM) LowsecIncursioner2: :911: (7:29:37 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: pretty much ya (7:29:43 PM) LowsecIncursioner4: nope theyre destroyed unless they unfuck their **** (7:29:55 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: IF ccp fixes things. they're so goddam idiotic they probably think they're fine. (7:30:24 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: glad i didn't buy that bling bling scimi yet (7:30:38 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: altho i already had most of the fittings... (7:31:48 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: my ni scorp was just delivered today :negative: (7:32:36 PM) LowsecIncursioner5: So is it just assaults or are all incursions donesky (7:32:47 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: Vanguards and Assaults. (7:33:10 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: so can the group continue (7:33:18 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: or thats it, we-¦re disbanding? (7:33:25 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: As the mechanics stands, incursions are dead.
Wow thats pretty much the same conversation we've had in our incursions group. |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS
Adapt or die
Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons.
Actually vgs are not really that much harder. They just need more time to get cleared. How is it harder to watch npcs explode longer? If they would have increased npc damage or reduced our tanks, but keep the maximum possible isk the same (minus those 10%), than I could agree that its harder. But that is not what they changed, they just make us now shoot longer on rats. Still you are right, adapt or die is the call and people already starting to adapt. Assaults are the new vgs. And vanguards are the new scouts.
|
Johann Zateki
Zateki Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
Templar Nato wrote: blah blah empty quoting
If you read one post below that you would see that assaults take longer too and are not by any means the new vanguards and are in fact Tier3 scout sites.
the only thing that didn't get nerfed were hq sites |
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
168
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:17:00 -
[44] - Quote
Templar Nato wrote:Tenris Anis wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS
Adapt or die
Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons.
Actually vgs are not really that much harder. They just need more time to get cleared. How is it harder to watch npcs explode longer? If they would have increased npc damage or reduced our tanks, but keep the maximum possible isk the same (minus those 10%), than I could agree that its harder. But that is not what they changed, they just make us now shoot longer on rats. Still you are right, adapt or die is the call and people already starting to adapt. Assaults are the new vgs. And vanguards are the new scouts.
may i redirect you to this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100746&find=unread |
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
Johann Zateki wrote:Templar Nato wrote: blah blah empty quoting
If you read one post below that you would see that assaults take longer too and are not by any means the new vanguards and are in fact Tier3 scout sites. the only thing that didn't get nerfed were hq sites
Ya, Assaults WERE going to be the new vanguards with what we saw on Sisi and read in the patch notes. Then CCP decided they actually love to lie to their gaming population, and ****** us all in our asses. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
The thing I was hoping CCP would do and something that would be supported storyline would be...
Sansha are running low on resources, they realise that they cannot sustain these assaults against Concord and the Capsuleers
So He sells off the tech to the other pirate factions, so that they may be able to Invade Constellations using similar wormhole tech.
This would bring great variety and each Pirate faction would have slightly different problems to overcome.
Angel TP more and be higher DPS than current incursion NPC's
Dark Blood Neut more and have harder tanks
Shadow do high DPS at close range as well as dampen
Gursista use more ECM and have most flexible range for DPS.
The difference in what to expect in each type of incursion would mean needing to plan it differently and would remove the "cookie cutter" fleets. So all machs and all legions. Wouldn't just be the answer. You'd be forced to overcome different obstacles |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Trinity Six wrote:Ya, Assaults WERE going to be the new vanguards with what we saw on Sisi and read in the patch notes. Then CCP decided they actually love to lie to their gaming population, and ****** us all in our asses.
Yeah, I was pretty surprised to see the changes on TQ were actually more severe that what we experimented with on Sisi.
At this point is seems like a waste of development time to have poured so many resources into creating content like this only to make it pointless to run. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1370
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
Were I of an incursion-running mind, I'd invest the time and energy into figuring out the best way to capitalize on this sudden drop in interest in incursions. There's probably a lot of profit to be had for an innovative group.
The reaction seen here is exactly why The Skunkworks took such glee in griefing incursions. When CCP yanked the rug out from under us (over and over and over again) we adapted and made the best of it. We found new ways to commit acts of piracy in high sec. Here we are, barely a day into this, and the entire "community" is throwing its hands up and saying "well, that's that, incursions are dead!" I'm not normally one to look down on others, but frankly this defeatism is appalling.
For those of you who will get out there and figure out ways to restore your income level, I beg of you: don't share it with those who won't put in the effort themselves. Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
176
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100764&find=unread
sign the petition to help fix the new assaults or vanguards or whatever **** YOU |
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
176
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:39:00 -
[50] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Were I of an incursion-running mind, I'd invest the time and energy into figuring out the best way to capitalize on this sudden drop in interest in incursions. There's probably a lot of profit to be had for an innovative group.
The reaction seen here is exactly why The Skunkworks took such glee in griefing incursions. When CCP yanked the rug out from under us (over and over and over again) we adapted and made the best of it. We found new ways to commit acts of piracy in high sec. Here we are, barely a day into this, and the entire "community" is throwing its hands up and saying "well, that's that, incursions are dead!" I'm not normally one to look down on others, but frankly this defeatism is appalling.
For those of you who will get out there and figure out ways to restore your income level, I beg of you: don't share it with those who won't put in the effort themselves. Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity.
is this what skunksworks has been reduced to? babysitting the forums looking for places they can talk themselves up :/ you guys need to get back in the game and start griefing people again |
|
Slightly Degotoga
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity.
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:reap great rewards for your effort and creativity.
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: great rewards Hahahahahaha |
Slightly Degotoga
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 06:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Who the hell is skunkworks? |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 07:06:00 -
[53] - Quote
really, I think blitz fleets will still be possible for the Vanguard sites. They may never be as profitable again.
But it may just mean that they are more exact in what they have in fleet.
Our group (mixed BS and cruisers) were alone in a VG system. And then an ISD player came along in a polaris frigate. Saying he was a reporter and thought it interesting that our group was the first one he'd seen doing OTA sites in the whole constellation.
"only one's brave enough" - his exact words. |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 07:13:00 -
[54] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:really, I think blitz fleets will still be possible for the Vanguard sites. They may never be as profitable again.
I have no doubt that with time people who stick with incursions will figure out the best min/ max and get the times down a little, though the issue will be keeping the dedicated members in those Communities. People were obviously Incursioning first and foremost for the money and when Incursioning is no longer equally or more attractive than other alternatives I can't see people following the Incursion train everywhere.
|
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
176
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 07:14:00 -
[55] - Quote
Slightly Degotoga wrote:Who the hell is skunkworks?
whenever there is a glitch or an exploit that allows you to kill unaware/lightlydefended/non-pvp ships they find it and exploit it then they do a combination of complaining and acting like marytrs when its fixed
honestly the first part about what they do, figuring out glitches and exploits sounds fun and intelligent and i give them kudos for that
they just do it with the grace of a drunk Irishman |
IMeres
Hellfire Heavy Industries
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 07:21:00 -
[56] - Quote
First of all, I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be (haven't tried Incursions post-nerf yet). It wouldn't be the first time people have cried 'X is dead' only for X to reemerge alive and well 1-2 months afterward.
However, if once people really start trying adapt and theory-craft new setups the situation proves to really be as bad as people think, then yes, Incursions are dead. |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 07:26:00 -
[57] - Quote
IMeres wrote:First of all, I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be (haven't tried Incursions post-nerf yet). It wouldn't be the first time people have cried 'X is dead' only for X to reemerge alive and well 1-2 months afterward.
However, if once people really start trying adapt and theory-craft new setups the situation proves to really be as bad as people think, then yes, Incursions are dead.
I really hope someone does theorycraft something that works. We've definitely tried a number of things and haven't seen anything that makes a significant difference yet. |
Cobalt Rookits
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 07:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Super shiny fleet (multibillion ships), with an amazing booster ,running one heavy with only 2 logis and we could only drop vgs to 8 minutes on average. Same fleet could hit VGs pre-nerf under 3 mins between payouts. Its still doable, but most people wouldn't want to risk shiny ships for that kind of money.
However, they nerfed VGs out of the isk/hr range of getting new people interested in doing them. I mean why would you run VGs, where there is site competition (although its probably going to be pretty dead) wait times and the serious risk of ship loss to gankers/bad players/bad luck when you compare it to safe L4s?. I mean if the payout is better on L4s, why would you go for more risk and less money? |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 08:06:00 -
[59] - Quote
Cobalt Rookits wrote:Super shiny fleet (multibillion ships), with an amazing booster ,running one heavy with only 2 logis and we could only drop vgs to 8 minutes on average. Same fleet could hit VGs pre-nerf under 3 mins between payouts. Its still doable, but most people wouldn't want to risk shiny ships for that kind of money.
However, they nerfed VGs out of the isk/hr range of getting new people interested in doing them. I mean why would you run VGs, where there is site competition (although its probably going to be pretty dead) wait times and the serious risk of ship loss to gankers/bad players/bad luck when you compare it to safe L4s?. I mean if the payout is better on L4s, why would you go for more risk and less money?
That's my point, it's all about risk/reward
A lot of people see incursion runners as super safe and never taking any risks... But if that's the case then why was there need for a "blacklist" containing the names of everyone that ever griefed an incursion fleet that we know of.
Incursion fleets don't die often but when they do... I feel like a bit of a meme here... They die with billions of isk in loot being dropped. |
Gonzo TheGreat
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 08:37:00 -
[60] - Quote
Slightly Degotoga wrote:Who the hell is skunkworks?
You've never run incursions have you ? or did you just start doing the great social pve experience after January 2012 ?
also , \o Skunks !
xVx dreadnaught wrote:[quote=Cobalt Rookits]Incursion fleets don't die often but when they do... I feel like a bit of a meme here... They die with billions of isk in loot being dropped.
Try w-space fleets, and they die a lot more often and no one is whining |
|
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
271
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 08:49:00 -
[61] - Quote
Until Incursions are removed from High Sec or lose CONCORD protection they can never be nerfed enough, and yes lvl 4s should be next. |
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
176
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 08:52:00 -
[62] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Until Incursions are removed from High Sec or lose CONCORD protection they can never be nerfed enough, and yes lvl 4s should be next.
other people are having more fun then me better ***** and cry about it until CCP nerfs it
nullbears.jpg |
IMeres
Hellfire Heavy Industries
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 08:53:00 -
[63] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Until Incursions are removed from High Sec or lose CONCORD protection they can never be nerfed enough, and yes lvl 4s should be next.
Actually tech (and moon mining in general) should be next. |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 08:57:00 -
[64] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Until Incursions are removed from High Sec or lose CONCORD protection they can never be nerfed enough, and yes lvl 4s should be next.
Let's do away with ISK and we can all just buy Credits from CCP. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Gonzo TheGreat wrote:Try w-space fleets, and they die a lot more often and no one is whining
I know, I fly in W-space as well... Usually I'm one of the people hunting trying to find w-space fleets to kill.
But never have I seen one with as much bling as any serious incursion runner.
Also I wasn't whining about losing incursion fleets... I was saying that one criticism of incursions is that they are "risk free" when in reality they are not. If your logi's bail/DC/suck/grief... You can lose billions of isk |
drdxie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
79
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:16:00 -
[66] - Quote
Aryana Ucksth wrote:C'mon CCP, the changes on Singularity were perfect, all you needed to do on top of that was reduce the payouts for nullsec to like 80%, reduce hisec to 50%, and leave lowsec at 100%. Sites would have been balanced at around 100m/hr for lowsec, armor vanguards and shield assaults could both run, and it would encourage hisec (no risk) runners and nullsec (no risk in friendly space) runners to come play in lowsec! It would have been fun!
Now nobody is going to run incursions with me anymore :(
This made me chuckle.... the null bears wanted the change, but now that it impacts them.. they come out whining.. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:37:00 -
[67] - Quote
I am all for change.
One of the things I said when I started doing incursions was "omg, we're making too much money" And it's been known for a long time that the nerf was coming...
But we were hoping for changes that would benefit the incursion community on a whole. Instead the actioned changes have a more negative effect on the community than the elitist blitz fleets.
If anything, the only way to actually make the sites worth doing would be to be part of an elitist blitz fleet. It's the only way you're going to get the sites done in any decent time. |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
There is no such thing as a Blitz fleet anymore, since blitzing isn't possible with the changes to the mechanics. |
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
177
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:46:00 -
[69] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:I am all for change.
One of the things I said when I started doing incursions was "omg, we're making too much money" And it's been known for a long time that the nerf was coming...
But we were hoping for changes that would benefit the incursion community on a whole. Instead the actioned changes have a more negative effect on the community than the elitist blitz fleets.
If anything, the only way to actually make the sites worth doing would be to be part of an elitist blitz fleet. It's the only way you're going to get the sites done in any decent time.
the "omg im making too much money" isnt really that accurate
> wait 2 hours to get into a fleet then make 70mil in an hour then fleet falls apart
thats the typical incursion runner experience only people who invest time into creating groups who can form quickly make more then 100mil/hr (if you include form up time) |
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
177
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:47:00 -
[70] - Quote
Templar Nato wrote:There is no such thing as a Blitz fleet anymore, since blitzing isn't possible with the changes to the mechanics.
Vanguard blitz fleets used to do OTAs and NMCs in 3-4 minutes, that has been nerfed to 5-6 minutes for NMCs and 7-8 minutes for OTAs.
It's not "blitzing" anymore but they have pretty much made it so ONLY shiny ships with high dps will be able to make decent money. |
|
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:52:00 -
[71] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:Templar Nato wrote:There is no such thing as a Blitz fleet anymore, since blitzing isn't possible with the changes to the mechanics. Vanguard blitz fleets used to do OTAs and NMCs in 3-4 minutes, that has been nerfed to 5-6 minutes for NMCs and 7-8 minutes for OTAs. It's not "blitzing" anymore but they have pretty much made it so ONLY shiny ships with high dps will be able to make decent money.
I'll agree with that. I have a feeling that people flying those shiny ships are going to start looking for income sources though, which will in turn make fleets more difficult/ time consuming to get up.
|
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:53:00 -
[72] - Quote
Ugh ... double post. |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 09:54:00 -
[73] - Quote
Triple post fail. |
Aryana Ucksth
The First One is Always Free Test Alliance Please Ignore
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:00:00 -
[74] - Quote
drdxie wrote:Aryana Ucksth wrote:C'mon CCP, the changes on Singularity were perfect, all you needed to do on top of that was reduce the payouts for nullsec to like 80%, reduce hisec to 50%, and leave lowsec at 100%. Sites would have been balanced at around 100m/hr for lowsec, armor vanguards and shield assaults could both run, and it would encourage hisec (no risk) runners and nullsec (no risk in friendly space) runners to come play in lowsec! It would have been fun!
Now nobody is going to run incursions with me anymore :( This made me chuckle.... the null bears wanted the change, but now that it impacts them.. they come out whining..
Did you actually read my post?
I don't think you did. I was suggesting nullsec incursions to get nerfed as well. Do you not understand why? I will tell you why: Because we, and by we, I mean nullsec alliances, already know where all possible nullsec incursions can spawn, and have jump bridge networks around them. Whenever they spawn in friendly space, we all go jew it up, we have tons of scouts, and the area is locked down. In hisec there is some risk of suicide ganking. During a nullsec incursion there is zero risk, and I am not given to exaggeration.
Nullsec incursions, by and large, rarely get run, because they often spawn in space where the local sov holders don't know what to do with them (looking at you, SMA), and therefore usually ran their courses and despawned at 0%. Lowsec incursions were where we were making bank. Not nullsec.
Lowsec incursions are the riskiest, as they can not be locked down and hellcamped like nullsec incursions, and there is no Concord like in hisec. A small ahac gang can come in and mess your day up if (when) you get lazy.
Whining? Nah. No whining. Just sad, because this was a fun social thing for ~everyone~ that isn't going to happen anymore unless CCP backs off a little on the nerfbat. |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:02:00 -
[75] - Quote
Aryana Ucksth wrote:
Did you actually read my post?
I don't think you did. I was suggesting nullsec incursions to get nerfed as well. Do you not understand why? I will tell you why: Because we, and by we, I mean nullbears, already know where all possible nullsec incursions can spawn, and have jump bridge networks around them. Whenever they spawn in friendly space, we all go jew it up, we have tons of scouts, and the area is locked down. In hisec there is some risk of suicide ganking. During a nullsec incursion there is zero risk, and I am not given to exaggeration.
Nullsec incursions, by and large, rarely get run, because they often spawn in space where the local sov holders don't know what to do with them (looking at you, SMA), and therefore usually ran their courses and despawned at 0%. Lowsec incursions were where we were making bank. Not nullsec.
Lowsec incursions are the riskiest, as they can not be locked down and hellcamped like nullsec incursions, and there is no Concord like in hisec. A small ahac gang can come in and mess your day up if (when) you get lazy.
Whining? Nah. No whining. Just sad, because this was a fun social thing for ~everyone~ that isn't going to happen anymore unless CCP backs off a little on the nerfbat.
Well put. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
51
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:18:00 -
[76] - Quote
Spark Progenitori wrote:If the intent of nerfing incurisons was to balance the risk/reward for highsec blitzing fleets, then the mechanics should have been changed specific to highsec incursions. Low/nullsec incursion runners had much more risk to deal with, and gave plenty of juicy targets for pvp pilots to shoot. This nerf makes incursions (regardless of sec status or risk) not worth anybody's time or effort, and no longer a social "endgame" of PVE in EVE. if you want the players of your game to enjoy the game, you have to give them balanced, worthwhile incentives as rewards. "defeating the sansha meanace" is hardly a reward when i could "defeat the serpentis menace" for more isk/hr, for less risk,
WTF they nerfed low and null incursions that is so dumb if anything they should be boosted. |
AstarothPrime
Eternal Profiteers Persona Non Gratis
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Do some effort.
There is plenty of null space available for rent ATM since recent move left most of it deserted.
Join some proper alliance and make yourself move to null. Find out what REAL waiting is when you need to jump your fleet (both pvp and pve) into new location while every deployment and midjump zone is merrily camped by reds / neuts. Then grind 40 x 3 x 2 day reinforcment timers to claim your space for countless hours in fleets of dreads, carriers, logi, fighting off enemy fleets who arent so happy for taking their sov etc etc...
Then you will realise shouting "shiny DPS mach LFSF" isnt what teaming up to do effort is all about... And THEN you will realise null "bears" have a point in shunning pathetic efforts in keeping giant hisec ISK faucets such as incursions intact...
I. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
876
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:26:00 -
[78] - Quote
I run incursions when I need isk. The funny thing is I've seen more than a few people who posted 'HTFU' 'CAERBEAR TEARS' 'nerfed incursions GG CCP!' in here begging to be let into fleet with badly fit ships. oh well vOv |
AstarothPrime
Eternal Profiteers Persona Non Gratis
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:35:00 -
[79] - Quote
Jake Warbird wrote:I run incursions when I need isk. The funny thing is I've seen more than a few people who posted 'HTFU' 'CAERBEAR TEARS' 'nerfed incursions GG CCP!' in here begging to be let into fleet with badly fit ships. oh well vOv
I tried incursions once or twice when I was waiting for my JC 24 hr timer to run out so i can jump back to null...
I browsed loadouts and found nice "abaddon VG LFAF" which cost no more then 20M isk in mods + hull which I already had to fit... Opened journal, found incursion site, got there and spammed "abaddon VG LFAF" for 10 mins till someone had mercy and let me in, so i joined TS etc etc, joy... Next thing -> we got into site, FC marked primaries pew pew, shot 3-4 frigates, 2-3 cruisers, 1 BS -> 5-10 mins altogether with warping in and out and message pops out and Im 10M isk richer. I was like FFS, whats this, why the **** am I looking over my shoulder all the time in null when there is something like this around in hisec.
There, is nerf now explained?
I. |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
101
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:43:00 -
[80] - Quote
Spark Progenitori wrote:If the intent of nerfing incurisons was to balance the risk/reward for highsec blitzing fleets, then the mechanics should have been changed specific to highsec incursions. Low/nullsec incursion runners had much more risk to deal with, and gave plenty of juicy targets for pvp pilots to shoot. This nerf makes incursions (regardless of sec status or risk) not worth anybody's time or effort, and no longer a social "endgame" of PVE in EVE. if you want the players of your game to enjoy the game, you have to give them balanced, worthwhile incentives as rewards. "defeating the sansha meanace" is hardly a reward when i could "defeat the serpentis menace" for more isk/hr, for less risk,
Agree with above poster, there was not really much point of nerfing incursions outside of hi sec.
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IMeres
Hellfire Heavy Industries
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:45:00 -
[81] - Quote
AstarothPrime wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:I run incursions when I need isk. The funny thing is I've seen more than a few people who posted 'HTFU' 'CAERBEAR TEARS' 'nerfed incursions GG CCP!' in here begging to be let into fleet with badly fit ships. oh well vOv I tried incursions once or twice when I was waiting for my JC 24 hr timer to run out so i can jump back to null... I browsed loadouts and found nice "abaddon VG LFAF" which cost no more then 20M isk in mods + hull which I already had to fit... Opened journal, found incursion site, got there and spammed "abaddon VG LFAF" for 10 mins till someone had mercy and let me in, so i joined TS etc etc, joy... Next thing -> we got into site, FC marked primaries pew pew, shot 3-4 frigates, 2-3 cruisers, 1 BS -> 5-10 mins altogether with warping in and out and message pops out and Im 10M isk richer. I was like FFS, whats this, why the **** am I looking over my shoulder all the time in null when there is something like this around in hisec. There, is nerf now explained? I.
You can replace pretty much everything you said about Incursions with level 4 missions from now on. |
Miss Yanumano
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:46:00 -
[82] - Quote
No guys, of course people like the CFC low-sec Incursion group are going to haul around 25-30Bn fleets of fitted ships in carriers (Nightmares are small I heard), make sure consumables such as ammo are available as well as making sure everyone are organized, travel all across the galaxy in low/null, keep active scout eyes in the entire constellation, form up to kill hostile fleets or otherwise hellcamp them and all this for less money per hour than it takes to run Serpentis or Guristas Sanctums. |
Capt NoeZ
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:48:00 -
[83] - Quote
CCP always goes too far when they nerf. It's either way too good or way too bad. I am disappointed that they still haven't learned how to nerf things without making them 100% worthless and unusable.
Just keep crying they will fix them, highsecbears are most of their customers afterall. and stop running them for a few weeks. If they see 0 VG sites done in weeks they'll change them, they always do ;) |
Lactasia
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:48:00 -
[84] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Spark Progenitori wrote:If the intent of nerfing incurisons was to balance the risk/reward for highsec blitzing fleets, then the mechanics should have been changed specific to highsec incursions. Low/nullsec incursion runners had much more risk to deal with, and gave plenty of juicy targets for pvp pilots to shoot. This nerf makes incursions (regardless of sec status or risk) not worth anybody's time or effort, and no longer a social "endgame" of PVE in EVE. if you want the players of your game to enjoy the game, you have to give them balanced, worthwhile incentives as rewards. "defeating the sansha meanace" is hardly a reward when i could "defeat the serpentis menace" for more isk/hr, for less risk, WTF they nerfed low and null incursions that is so dumb if anything they should be boosted.
Exactly, highsec should have been nerfed a little or CONCORD suspended in Incursion areas. As it stands CCP has killed a social mechanic meant to bring people together. The risk/reward was fine for lowsec in fact could have been boosted a tad, and nullsec could have used a little nerf, but highsec was what needed to be fixed but not this hard. Personally I would have nerfed payout on highsec, encouraging players to move to lowsec incursions which would have created more targets and conflicts between incursion fleets.
Interesting how CCP chooses burn what I'm sure was bunch of labor to bring Incursions into the game. Oh well at least some programmers got payed for something that won't be used anymore.
Good job CCP |
Capt NoeZ
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 10:54:00 -
[85] - Quote
AstarothPrime wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:I run incursions when I need isk. The funny thing is I've seen more than a few people who posted 'HTFU' 'CAERBEAR TEARS' 'nerfed incursions GG CCP!' in here begging to be let into fleet with badly fit ships. oh well vOv I tried incursions once or twice when I was waiting for my JC 24 hr timer to run out so i can jump back to null... I browsed loadouts and found nice "abaddon VG LFAF" which cost no more then 20M isk in mods + hull which I already had to fit... Opened journal, found incursion site, got there and spammed "abaddon VG LFAF" for 10 mins till someone had mercy and let me in, so i joined TS etc etc, joy... Next thing -> we got into site, FC marked primaries pew pew, shot 3-4 frigates, 2-3 cruisers, 1 BS -> 5-10 mins altogether with warping in and out and message pops out and Im 10M isk richer. I was like FFS, whats this, why the **** am I looking over my shoulder all the time in null when there is something like this around in hisec. There, is nerf now explained? I. warping to a pos as soon as some1 enters local clearly takes so much skill that it should at least triple your income. ~~elite~~ |
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
185
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 11:06:00 -
[86] - Quote
Capt NoeZ wrote: warping to a pos as soon as some1 enters local clearly takes so much skill that it should at least triple your income. ~~elite~~
It was content that actual players ran, and not content 'automated' like 0.0 is.
http://mylittlefacewhen.com/f/1925/ i ******* love you man
have my babies |
Gonzo TheGreat
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 11:16:00 -
[87] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Gonzo TheGreat wrote:Try w-space fleets, and they die a lot more often and no one is whining I know, I fly in W-space as well... Usually I'm one of the people hunting trying to find w-space fleets to kill. But never have I seen one with as much bling as any serious incursion runner. Also I wasn't whining about losing incursion fleets... I was saying that one criticism of incursions is that they are "risk free" when in reality they are not. If your logi's bail/DC/suck/grief... You can lose billions of isk
By your definition, undocking in EvE is not Risk-Free. As you can get suicide ganked any minute , DC in a mission , or just lock up and shoot someone in highsec. That is not Risk.
Also, the amount of shinies in your fleet means it is risk free. If it wasn't then you wouldn't put that much money into one ship that is about to die any minute.
Capt NoeZ wrote:CCP always goes too far when they nerf. It's either way too good or way too bad. I am disappointed that they still haven't learned how to nerf things without making them 100% worthless and unusable.
Just keep crying they will fix them, highsecbears are most of their customers afterall. and stop running them for a few weeks. If they see 0 VG sites done in weeks they'll change them, they always do ;)
Didn't you guys say same thing that you guys said before the nerf ? that most of their customers are HS bears so they won't nerf incursions ? :) |
Aldormanndiobla
Club Bear
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 11:16:00 -
[88] - Quote
lol CCP, you really are a bunch of Muppets. |
Zita Devon
Z.Devon Trade Industry.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 12:31:00 -
[89] - Quote
welcom to the NEW day's of incurtions...
where you befor was able to run .. and have fun in a group.. training pilot's up for Assult and YES PvP .. you now have made all this useless.. unless you REALY know's what is going on.. you will not be able to do anything at all...
befor this patch.. ppl was "farmeing" VG's yes.. and skilled players WHO have been around sinds the begining was able to top off a werry high sorse of incom running this.. "speed" fleet's was made from "elite" players who put in the time to get the right skill's for what thy needed to do... and YES thy did get there pay out .. a fair value of there time and devotion.
to the fact about all ppl unning VG's got stinky rich.. EVERY one knowes this is not true.. you had 6 site's per sytem.. and you had 8 fleet's running.. you did only shoot a site for like 4 min's to get 10 mill... but after this NORMAL runners was Waiting 15 maybe 20 min's for there next site..
I was running this new VG's yesterday after DT. i do enjoy that we have to relay on the FC to derict the main fire.. "eg. might as well fly PVP fleet's" and i do enjoy that ppl flying shiney ship's are paying attention 120%.. and not Tab's out to read forum or what ever.. social chat in fleets are DEAD.. you can't text chat while fighting . and you can't Talk over the FC..
Running missions if FARE better to do now.. as your the ONLY human in a mission WHO can **** up.. not like now where it dosn't mather if YOU do it right.. another player might not and your risk of dead fleet.
seccont... Let's talk about server stability .. you have a VG fleet running with enogh DPS ship's and Logi's to still suvive if members of fleet Crashed... thanks to CCP. this is no longer posable.. if you lose members from your VG fleet . you will be out gunned by the incomming sansha force.. and members will die..
but then again.. try to remember EVE is a game .. not a part time job...
for those of you who don't like part's of the game.. do something else.. and IF you find nothing else to do in EVE.. find another GAME.. enjoy your free time in life... enjoy ever houre.. the wrested time you spent on something you don't like will never come back....
Thums up for Nill seq... another manipulation great proformed.. what is the next thing you guy's like to **** up? |
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 12:36:00 -
[90] - Quote
Lactasia wrote: As it stands CCP has killed a social mechanic meant to bring people together.
Social mechanic?
Hun, god invented that it's called your mouth.
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Hawk GB
LightningStrikesTwice Elemental Tide
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 12:37:00 -
[91] - Quote
I've read every post here and most of the people that have posted seem only to have their own interest at heart
Lets have a look at the bigger picture. Incursion Runners, before the patch, made a tonne of Isk and Concord LP's. They plex their account, buy expensive ships and fits, occasionally lose said expensive ships and fits. They also use the Isk to buy their ships in null for pvp etc.
The Null sec PVP player, FINDS expensive mods in anoms and scanned down sites that can take less time than an incursion and earn more Isk, has the ability to mine the expensive and rare ores needed to build ships etc, and enjoys killing well fitted shiney ships
Lets look at this closer. Incursions Die. Moaning Null sec pilots rejoice! Then they realise that nobody is buying their shiney mods they found in a 2 minute site. Nobody is buying the ships they build and they have fewer shiney ships to fight because other people no longer have the Isk to buy them. They lose Isk and struggle to make it back
Now thats what I call cutting your nose off to spite your face isn't it
I enjoy running incursions because it gives me the Isk to do the things in null which I also enjoy doing.It also gives me a break from null sec when I want to take part in a different aspect of the game or help hi sec corpies out. Incursions have boosted the market and have, indirectly, made alot of other pilots plenty of Isk. Pilots who have never set foot in an incursion before. Pilots that make ammo, ships and mods. It's a god way of teaching new players the aspects of flying in a fleet and helps new FCs develop. It gives pirates the opportunity to do what they do best and gank fleets with excellent rewards for doing so. It's a game mechanic with a domino effect. Take it out and a lot of things will go with it.
All of the above are aspects of the game. Everyone has a choice of what aspect they play and how they play it. Note the word GAME. It's about time the eve community stopped moaning and started playing. |
Katy Ling
Crimnson Concept Flame Flaming Nebula
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 12:46:00 -
[92] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:I have been doing incursions for a long time now. There are 3 ways I could see that they could have done this very effectively.
- Financial - Reduce income per site { DONE}
- Formatting - Mix up the waves so that there are more Frigates in OTA's needing killed and Cruisers in NCO's {DONE}
- Bigger Waves - Make it that you have to kill every NPC in the wave for the next to spawn and only complete the site {DONE}
Personally I think one or 2 of these, used in combination would have done the job in reducing the elite fleets from having such a boring line up. So it would make them more likely to bring a mixture of Cruisers and Battleships.
* you also need to have more specialised players, like in assaults, wich encreases the complexity of the site, and makes harder to recruit "just another DPS"
* when ccp applied the nerfings, they neglected to take in account how often people spend waiting to form a proper fleet with the necessary logistics and dps / ships to run a vanguard site
* the current layout on vanguards makes it take 2-3x more to complete, bringing the pay out down to actually -66% just on the time it takes to complete + (-10) which in effect, reduces the pay out of vanguards by 76% +/-
* the new spawns are actually fun and challenging to run, but they're more at a difficulty level betwin the former vanguards and the assaults.
they were intended to be run by 5-10 players, but wile before , it was possible to run them a bit light on dps or logi or even accept unskilled players that still would be usefull, or even have chance of performing miracle rescues on "Leroys", or survive server disconnections, the current sites are no place for mistakes, or for noob players. far from a fleet being able to allow some unskilled but still useful pilot, the new vanguards are now, more of a place for elite pilots, where every pilot counts and 10-11 are the necessary requirement.
i challenge a team of 5 ccp members, with "average skills" to try to run the new vanguard sites, to see if that "recommended minimum 5 players" in the description really makes sense.
* this layout is still interesting, but the payout should really be reviewed - i urge ccp to verify this
** scout sites are useless ... miss opportunity of buffing them in complexity and payout ... and actually make them useful to small fleets unable to make a bigger fleet in the dead hours when they can't find enough for higher level incursions.
*** on other aspect of this patch, drone loot was refined again, and the replacement bounty is like half of other normal rats for what people have commented - this is not good, you're destroying the way of life of people ... sure people have to adapt, and you have the right to nerf or twek things, but brutal changes are always dramatic.
the new UI improvements are good, but the Brutal nerfs are exaggerated and it's not a positive patch like "Cruiciable Patch" it starts to sound more like "incarna lol expansion" in the terms of disappointing people.
if you keep it up in this direction don't get surprised about players reactions. right now, people are already talking about unsubscribing extra accounts and buying less plexes because it's no longer necessary.
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Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
450
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 12:53:00 -
[93] - Quote
Trinity Six wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:My thoughts on Incursions in they should be a CONCORD free zone even when theyre in High sec. The idea CONCORD can keep the peace when theres a pirate incursion going on is stupid Trinity Six wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:[quote=Trinity Six] (7:33:25 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: As the mechanics stands, incursions are dead. lol... really? Hell 0.0 ppl what you guys been crying about... they didnt need to remove them, just nerf em 10% an ppl wont touch them it's more than 10%. 10% would have been fine. Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS Adapt or die Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons. Yes, they made it harder. We all agree that it should have been harder. You are generalizing the situation by making a blanket statement of 'durr dey made it harder. dat's a good ting." The fact that they're harder is great - we all agree with that. But wait - it takes 47 minutes to do a site now. With more people required to do it. Because of this, a social games' primary social PVE experience has been nerfed so much that it is unviable. In return, players are moving to a solo experience (level 4's or GASP! mining). Now do you see the issue here? MINING is now more profitable that a well-built social PVE experience. "durr its harder now. me like". that's good. go back to ratting or mining in hisec now, pubbie. Wow why do i bother with the general idiocy this forum provides.
awwww you lose your isk sink? QQ moar.
Or as the guy you quoted said "adapt or die" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
450
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 12:57:00 -
[94] - Quote
Templar Nato wrote:
Personally I think that if the Incursion nerf stands as it currently is on Tranquility this will be the end of High Sec Incursions.
Good, the risk averse will go back to lvl IVs. Youd think the 0.0 ppl would then stop QQing about high sec since theyve broken the major Isk faucet there, but who wants to lay bets how liong till they start QQing about lvl IVs lol
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
AstarothPrime
Eternal Profiteers Persona Non Gratis
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 12:58:00 -
[95] - Quote
Capt NoeZ wrote: warping to a pos as soon as some1 enters local clearly takes so much skill that it should at least triple your income. ~~elite~~
It was content that actual players ran, and not content 'automated' like 0.0 is.
You quite missed the point there.
You see, to get to the point where you can do that, there is plenty of stuff to do. Plus it aint everlasting.
Both incursions and nullsec carebearing are automated isk faucets once you get a hang of them.
To be able to carebear in null you need:
1) To claim sov (via diplomacy or pay 5B ISK / month rent fee) 2) Wait for a week in order to place IHUB and some upgrades to system (or u get no anoms) 3) Move stuff down without being popped, have several PvP and PvE ships and means to replace them which needs quite alot of logistics and planning 4) Anchor that POS you mentioned and pay ~200M / month to keep it active 5) Watch the local and intel channel all the time while shooting rats
To be able to carebear incursions you need to:
1) Visit Jita and dish out 200M isk for a ship+fitting 2) Autopilot 5 jmps to incursion site 3) Spam [shipname] [wanted site] [LFSF / LFAF] with your ship fitting in link till someone picks you up 4) Look at target markers on overview as FC marks primaries and press F1-F8
I challenge you to set up yourself in 20 minutes for carebear nullsec life :) I can set up myself in that time for hisec incursions ;)
I. |
Miss Yanumano
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:01:00 -
[96] - Quote
Seems like people have entirely forgotten that low and null sec Incursions exist too, and they are ****** over even harder, some of us don't care **** all about high sec Incursions, nerf them all to hell for what I care, too easy ISK/h with no risk, but there are other forms of Incursions too. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
450
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:01:00 -
[97] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:The thing I was hoping CCP would do and something that would be supported storyline would be...
Sansha are running low on resources, they realise that they cannot sustain these assaults against Concord and the Capsuleers
So He sells off the tech to the other pirate factions, so that they may be able to Invade Constellations using similar wormhole tech.
This would bring great variety and each Pirate faction would have slightly different problems to overcome.
Angel TP more and be higher DPS than current incursion NPC's
Dark Blood Neut more and have harder tanks
Shadow do high DPS at close range as well as dampen
Gursista use more ECM and have most flexible range for DPS.
The difference in what to expect in each type of incursion would mean needing to plan it differently and would remove the "cookie cutter" fleets. So all machs and all legions. Wouldn't just be the answer. You'd be forced to overcome different obstacles
Yes cause endless incursion fleets makes so much sense storyline wise. I think this was a idea at making a great social even in EVE that was abused and farmed to death.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:03:00 -
[98] - Quote
Templar Nato wrote:Trinity Six wrote:Ya, Assaults WERE going to be the new vanguards with what we saw on Sisi and read in the patch notes. Then CCP decided they actually love to lie to their gaming population, and ****** us all in our asses. Yeah, I was pretty surprised to see the changes on TQ were actually more severe that what we experimented with on Sisi. At this point is seems like a waste of development time to have poured so many resources into creating content like this only to make it pointless to run.
Kind of thinking though, if there wasnt so much QQ from 0.0 (remove tech moons) about it and the anti Incursion ppl werent so loud, this "fix" never would have happened
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:07:00 -
[99] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:Slightly Degotoga wrote:Who the hell is skunkworks? whenever there is a glitch or an exploit that allows you to kill unaware/lightlydefended/non-pvp ships they find it and exploit it then they do a combination of complaining and acting like marytrs when its fixed honestly the first part about what they do, figuring out glitches and exploits sounds fun and intelligent and i give them kudos for that they just do it with the grace of a drunk Irishman
So like Goonswarm acts in every other game they play in (hell they turned Star Trek Online into a nonconsentual PVP game for about a month with ability glitches)?
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
yugi272
F---ing Nublets
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:12:00 -
[100] - Quote
Considering i did logistics yesterday a while in new incursions vanguard sites, i would like to state that the sites are extremly harder now (to be precise the OTA's). The nerf really was welcome, but it's just too much, and really not simply worth the time put into it. Il just avoid OTA's since the time needed to take them down is too much, other sites can be done a few mins faster, and i think most of the people will just relly in this case on:"someone else will do the OTA's". |
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Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:17:00 -
[101] - Quote
IMeres wrote:AstarothPrime wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:I run incursions when I need isk. The funny thing is I've seen more than a few people who posted 'HTFU' 'CAERBEAR TEARS' 'nerfed incursions GG CCP!' in here begging to be let into fleet with badly fit ships. oh well vOv I tried incursions once or twice when I was waiting for my JC 24 hr timer to run out so i can jump back to null... I browsed loadouts and found nice "abaddon VG LFAF" which cost no more then 20M isk in mods + hull which I already had to fit... Opened journal, found incursion site, got there and spammed "abaddon VG LFAF" for 10 mins till someone had mercy and let me in, so i joined TS etc etc, joy... Next thing -> we got into site, FC marked primaries pew pew, shot 3-4 frigates, 2-3 cruisers, 1 BS -> 5-10 mins altogether with warping in and out and message pops out and Im 10M isk richer. I was like FFS, whats this, why the **** am I looking over my shoulder all the time in null when there is something like this around in hisec. There, is nerf now explained? I. You can replace pretty much everything you said about Incursions with level 4 missions from now on.
Wow that was fast Id have expected it would take a week or so to start the "QQ lvl 4s need nerfing QQ" to start up again especially since the 0.0 ppl have infinite moon **** income.
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1373
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:26:00 -
[102] - Quote
Slightly Degotoga wrote:Who the hell is skunkworks? Ahh, a goon alt. Hi there :) It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1373
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:27:00 -
[103] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:they just do it with the grace of a drunk Irishman Have you ever seen a drunk Irishman? Don't they look like they're have a LOT of fun? It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1373
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:28:00 -
[104] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:is this what skunksworks has been reduced to? babysitting the forums looking for places they can talk themselves up :/ you guys need to get back in the game and start griefing people again I'm SKNK's unofficial self-appointed and often disavowed Minister of Forum Propaganda. Anyone who doesn't realize this by now hasn't been paying attention for the past six months. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
877
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:32:00 -
[105] - Quote
AstarothPrime wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:I run incursions when I need isk. The funny thing is I've seen more than a few people who posted 'HTFU' 'CAERBEAR TEARS' 'nerfed incursions GG CCP!' in here begging to be let into fleet with badly fit ships. oh well vOv I tried incursions once or twice when I was waiting for my JC 24 hr timer to run out so i can jump back to null... I browsed loadouts and found nice "abaddon VG LFAF" which cost no more then 20M isk in mods + hull which I already had to fit... Opened journal, found incursion site, got there and spammed "abaddon VG LFAF" for 10 mins till someone had mercy and let me in, so i joined TS etc etc, joy... Next thing -> we got into site, FC marked primaries pew pew, shot 3-4 frigates, 2-3 cruisers, 1 BS -> 5-10 mins altogether with warping in and out and message pops out and Im 10M isk richer. I was like FFS, whats this, why the **** am I looking over my shoulder all the time in null when there is something like this around in hisec. There, is nerf now explained? I. Where did I cry nerf/unnerf? I'll be nice to you and let you off with just that. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1374
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:44:00 -
[106] - Quote
Katy Ling wrote:* when ccp applied the nerfings, they neglected to take in account how often people spend waiting to form a proper fleet with the necessary logistics and dps / ships to run a vanguard site Get yourself an incursion corp or at least a group you can depend on running sites with. Schedule certain days and have a flexible-enough group that you can proceed with 1 or 2 members not available. Pick-up fleets SHOULD eat into your income versus having an organized and prepared group.
Katy Ling wrote:if you keep it up in this direction don't get surprised about players reactions. right now, people are already talking about unsubscribing extra accounts and buying less plexes because it's no longer necessary. TBH, if they're plexing their accounts now losing them won't hurt CCP at all. PLEX prices could drop 20% and I don't think they'd see a decline in sales of PLEX at all. Possibly even an increase as it would take 5 PLEX to hit 2 billion instead of 4. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1374
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:44:00 -
[107] - Quote
Hawk GB wrote:occasionally lose said expensive ships and fits. ...HOW?
It took me almost a year to lose my first T2-fit w-space Legion, and that was to someone finally catching me not paying attention literally 30 seconds before I was finished with the hole I was running. If you're losing Incursion ships at a rate higher than I lose ships in w-space, you or your fleetmates are doing it wrong. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:57:00 -
[108] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Hawk GB wrote:occasionally lose said expensive ships and fits. ...HOW? It took me almost a year to lose my first T2-fit w-space Legion, and that was to someone finally catching me not paying attention literally 30 seconds before I was finished with the hole I was running. If you're losing Incursion ships at a rate higher than I lose ships in w-space, you or your fleetmates are doing it wrong.
or are getting ppl doing that greifing logi thing
Ive heard thats an easy wau to lose a faction fit ship
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 14:03:00 -
[109] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Hawk GB wrote:occasionally lose said expensive ships and fits. ...HOW? It took me almost a year to lose my first T2-fit w-space Legion, and that was to someone finally catching me not paying attention literally 30 seconds before I was finished with the hole I was running. If you're losing Incursion ships at a rate higher than I lose ships in w-space, you or your fleetmates are doing it wrong.
See, it's harder to find people in wormholes to kill... Incursions it's very easy for a griefer to find a target. They just need to join a fleet, get aggro (can flip or something like that)
And their buddies come in and nuke the logi's With the logi's down the NPC's will kill everyone in the pocket... and the griefers have logis to keep them alive.
DO I REALLY NEED TO EXPLAIN GRIEFING TO A SKUNK?
Why do you think so many griefer groups have clung to the incursion community, bleeding fleets for nice loot drops?
Not to mention ninja looters that attempt to steal the faction drops from the mothership kill? |
Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
1002
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 14:05:00 -
[110] - Quote
Too far? Not far enough. |
|
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 14:07:00 -
[111] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Until Incursions are removed from High Sec or lose CONCORD protection they can never be nerfed enough, and yes lvl 4s should be next.
Nullbear detected. Though I am not sure if I have to disagree. |
AstarothPrime
Eternal Profiteers Persona Non Gratis
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 14:14:00 -
[112] - Quote
Jake Warbird wrote:
Where did I cry nerf/unnerf? I'll be nice to you and let you off with just that.
Actually IDK why I commented on your post...
My apologies, ment to simple reply to thread...
I. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1374
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 14:18:00 -
[113] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:See, it's harder to find people in wormholes to kill... Incursions it's very easy for a griefer to find a target. They just need to join a fleet, get aggro (can flip or something like that)
And their buddies come in and nuke the logi's With the logi's down the NPC's will kill everyone in the pocket... and the griefers have logis to keep them alive. Logi aggro hasn't worked in months. It was patched in November, then we discovered a rather obscure flaw in a crucible update around the end of January that was patched a week later. Anyone who gets aggro from logi after all the patching CCP did to stop us deserves it, because they've ignored very specific warnings.
That is, unless CCP broke it AGAIN, in which case I'll come see in person just how "dead" incursions are.
The only ways I know of to grief incursions today:
- Suicide jamming the logi, which (I think) Lead Farmers executed quite well for a short time before they went on to other things. - Logi abandonment, where the logi pilots don't rep or don't warp into the site with the rest of the fleet. This one I can claim as my own, I was one of the first to propose it. The problem is it has limited use as once a logi pilot is identified they have an extremely hard time getting fleets.
xVx dreadnaught wrote:DO I REALLY NEED TO EXPLAIN GRIEFING TO A SKUNK? Sometimes I just like to hear it It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 14:30:00 -
[114] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Logi aggro hasn't worked in months. It was patched in November, then we discovered a rather obscure flaw in a crucible update around the end of January that was patched a week later. Anyone who gets aggro from logi after all the patching CCP did to stop us deserves it, because they've ignored very specific warnings.
That's strange because I got aggro when scooping up a can from one of the alts of the group the other day, the alt had DC'd but the can was still sitting there. It bounced around the logis for ages till eventually we took a break.
Wardec aggro comes up the specific message but as far as I understand looted containers doesn't |
Tenchuu Khaan
x-instinct
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 15:19:00 -
[115] - Quote
Ye... Incursions are dead, back to nullsec actually playing the game. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 15:19:00 -
[116] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:[quote=Katy Ling]* when ccp applied the nerfings, they neglected to take in account how often people spend waiting to form a proper fleet with the necessary logistics and dps / ships to run a vanguard site Get yourself an incursion corp or at least a group you can depend on running sites with. Schedule certain days and have a flexible-enough group that you can proceed with 1 or 2 members not available. Pick-up fleets SHOULD eat into your income versus having an organized and prepared group./quote]
Can not disagree here. But I can question how far they shoud eat into. Imho L4s should always give less income than incursions, no matter if you are flying them with picups or not. Which leads me to the point that if incursions are fine now, than we need to nerf L4s now.
Which btw I said even before incursions were released. |
OMGFRIGATES WARPOUT
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 15:30:00 -
[117] - Quote
Trinity Six wrote:Johann Zateki wrote:Templar Nato wrote: blah blah empty quoting
If you read one post below that you would see that assaults take longer too and are not by any means the new vanguards and are in fact Tier3 scout sites. the only thing that didn't get nerfed were hq sites Ya, Assaults WERE going to be the new vanguards with what we saw on Sisi and read in the patch notes. Then CCP decided they actually love to lie to their gaming population, and ****** us all in our asses.
This attitude is quite frankly why I think public access to the SiSi server is dumb. Its called a TEST server for a reason. It isn't the "IF ITS ON HERE IT IS THE WAY IT WILL BE ON TQ" server. |
Five Thirty
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 15:34:00 -
[118] - Quote
Incursions are still one of the largest PvE moneymakers in game... |
March rabbit
Trojan Trolls Red Alliance
165
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 15:48:00 -
[119] - Quote
i think there will be this way: - less money from Incursion -> less people do it - less people do Incursion -> less CONCORD LP generated - less CONCORD LP generated -> more CONCORD LP worth - more CONCORD LP worth -> more profit for people doing Incursion
process will balance itself at some point |
o7 Ohaya
Black Aces Military Academy En Garde
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 16:20:00 -
[120] - Quote
Five Thirty wrote:Incursions are still one of the largest PvE moneymakers in game... Should have payed more attention at fanfest... they never were. not even close. |
|
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 16:25:00 -
[121] - Quote
OMGFRIGATES WARPOUT wrote:Trinity Six wrote:Johann Zateki wrote:Templar Nato wrote: blah blah empty quoting
If you read one post below that you would see that assaults take longer too and are not by any means the new vanguards and are in fact Tier3 scout sites. the only thing that didn't get nerfed were hq sites Ya, Assaults WERE going to be the new vanguards with what we saw on Sisi and read in the patch notes. Then CCP decided they actually love to lie to their gaming population, and ****** us all in our asses. This attitude is quite frankly why I think public access to the SiSi server is dumb. Its called a TEST server for a reason. It isn't the "IF ITS ON HERE IT IS THE WAY IT WILL BE ON TQ" server.
you're an idiot. It was in the patch notes. |
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 16:31:00 -
[122] - Quote
Did you spend all night crying about this in this thread? |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1380
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 17:09:00 -
[123] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:That's strange because I got aggro when scooping up a can from one of the alts of the group the other day, the alt had DC'd but the can was still sitting there. It bounced around the logis for ages till eventually we took a break.
Wardec aggro comes up the specific message but as far as I understand looted containers doesn't
Unless CCP broke it again, loot aggro now breaks logi cycles just like GCC and triggers a warning just like war aggro. Odds are your logi pilots just clicked "yes" to the warning because they trusted you to not abuse the aggro.
I'll have to fire up some highsec alts and see if something has changed from the last time we tested out aggro mechanics. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 18:03:00 -
[124] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Gonzo TheGreat wrote:Try w-space fleets, and they die a lot more often and no one is whining I know, I fly in W-space as well... Usually I'm one of the people hunting trying to find w-space fleets to kill. But never have I seen one with as much bling as any serious incursion runner. Also I wasn't whining about losing incursion fleets... I was saying that one criticism of incursions is that they are "risk free" when in reality they are not. If your logi's bail/DC/suck/grief... You can lose billions of isk
hunting or get hunted??
and what did you hunt.??
some drakes runnning C1 site??? |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 18:27:00 -
[125] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:Gonzo TheGreat wrote:Try w-space fleets, and they die a lot more often and no one is whining I know, I fly in W-space as well... Usually I'm one of the people hunting trying to find w-space fleets to kill. But never have I seen one with as much bling as any serious incursion runner. Also I wasn't whining about losing incursion fleets... I was saying that one criticism of incursions is that they are "risk free" when in reality they are not. If your logi's bail/DC/suck/grief... You can lose billions of isk hunting or get hunted?? and what did you hunt.?? some drakes runnning C1 site???
Last proper targets we got were a couple of RR domi's (one navy issue one standard) in a C3... not that it's a big deal or anything.
But as you say C1, I remember me and a corpy did go into a C1 witha pair of Assault Frigs and scored a Rook kill... I know, nothing special, but was more for the fun of it. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 18:34:00 -
[126] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Last proper targets we got were a couple of RR domi's (one navy issue one standard) in a C3... not that it's a big deal or anything.
But as you say C1, I remember me and a corpy did go into a C1 witha pair of Assault Frigs and scored a Rook kill... I know, nothing special, but was more for the fun of it.
only killing that much and you call incursion risk-free, what a shame
|
OMGFRIGATES WARPOUT
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 18:53:00 -
[127] - Quote
Trinity Six wrote:OMGFRIGATES WARPOUT wrote:Trinity Six wrote:Johann Zateki wrote:Templar Nato wrote: blah blah empty quoting
If you read one post below that you would see that assaults take longer too and are not by any means the new vanguards and are in fact Tier3 scout sites. the only thing that didn't get nerfed were hq sites Ya, Assaults WERE going to be the new vanguards with what we saw on Sisi and read in the patch notes. Then CCP decided they actually love to lie to their gaming population, and ****** us all in our asses. This attitude is quite frankly why I think public access to the SiSi server is dumb. Its called a TEST server for a reason. It isn't the "IF ITS ON HERE IT IS THE WAY IT WILL BE ON TQ" server. you're an idiot. It was in the patch notes.
It was in the patch notes that yes it would be changed. Someone took to heart that they would mirror the results from SiSi and now that they aren't they are about to implode because it doesn't match. Please continue to QQ Moar. |
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 19:02:00 -
[128] - Quote
When are you people going to learn that rats, no matter the form, do not constitute risk? |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 19:20:00 -
[129] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Last proper targets we got were a couple of RR domi's (one navy issue one standard) in a C3... not that it's a big deal or anything.
But as you say C1, I remember me and a corpy did go into a C1 witha pair of Assault Frigs and scored a Rook kill... I know, nothing special, but was more for the fun of it.
only killing that much and you call incursion risk-free, what a shame in a C5 farming fleet, the only logistics ship is carrier which if he dc, the whole fleet with 2,3 lokis, 5,6 dread all die in seconds. while your incursion fleet has 3 200m logis. isnt it risk-free
But isn't the reward from your C5 wormhole sites a lot higher than incursion running?
The risk does match the reward. Because in a decent incursion fleet before you could male about 100 mill an hour... any higher and you were in one of those "elite" fleets.
Yes 3 logi's but most spend more on their logi ship so they can get more out of it. To get all 4 reps being T2 my guardian has a Bailey plate on it, which is more than 500 mill on it's own.
And still if those logi's go down you can be losing up to 8 deadspace and faction fit Vindicators, Nightmares, Machariels... And they will all die in seconds if the logi's are down...
How often do your fleets come under attack? I imagine being in your fortress of a WH system that you have scouts every where not to mention Warp disruption bubbles on any holes while your fleets are active.
Because the Incursion fleets are out in the open for anyone to attempt a logi gank. And they do try, with some success. |
BearJews
Android Arms And Industrial Corporation Tenth Legion
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 19:26:00 -
[130] - Quote
Liliana Rahl wrote:When are you people going to learn that rats, no matter the form, do not constitute risk? Hey whatever makes you sleep at night. |
|
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 19:29:00 -
[131] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Apolyon I wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Last proper targets we got were a couple of RR domi's (one navy issue one standard) in a C3... not that it's a big deal or anything.
But as you say C1, I remember me and a corpy did go into a C1 witha pair of Assault Frigs and scored a Rook kill... I know, nothing special, but was more for the fun of it.
only killing that much and you call incursion risk-free, what a shame in a C5 farming fleet, the only logistics ship is carrier which if he dc, the whole fleet with 2,3 lokis, 5,6 dread all die in seconds. while your incursion fleet has 3 200m logis. isnt it risk-free But isn't the reward from your C5 wormhole sites a lot higher than incursion running? The risk does match the reward. Because in a decent incursion fleet before you could male about 100 mill an hour... any higher and you were in one of those "elite" fleets. Yes 3 logi's but most spend more on their logi ship so they can get more out of it. To get all 4 reps being T2 my guardian has a Bailey plate on it, which is more than 500 mill on it's own. And still if those logi's go down you can be losing up to 8 deadspace and faction fit Vindicators, Nightmares, Machariels... And they will all die in seconds if the logi's are down... How often do your fleets come under attack? I imagine being in your fortress of a WH system that you have scouts every where not to mention Warp disruption bubbles on any holes while your fleets are active. Because the Incursion fleets are out in the open for anyone to attempt a logi gank. And they do try, with some success.
The logistics of running security is effort, usually people are paid for that alone. Second, even then people lose ships because of siege and triage, there are cap kills daily.
This is why no one has any problems with LS or NS incursions having the same or greater payouts as old incursions, because people have the ability to kill your ****.
|
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 19:36:00 -
[132] - Quote
OMGFRIGATES WARPOUT wrote:
It was in the patch notes that yes it would be changed. Someone took to heart that they would mirror the results from SiSi and now that they aren't they are about to implode because it doesn't match. Please continue to QQ Moar.
Learn to read: http://community.eveonline.com/en/inferno/features/
Quote:Incursion Iteration The rewards and challenges of Sansha invasion fleets in Incursion content have been revisited to better balance challenge and reward. Vanguard invasions will now take a bit longer, while the time to complete an Assault invasions will be reduced some. In addition, the ISK reward of Vanguard invasions has been changed to bring the reward in line with the difficulty/risk. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 19:42:00 -
[133] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote: But isn't the reward from your C5 wormhole sites a lot higher than incursion running?
The risk does match the reward. Because in a decent incursion fleet before you could male about 100 mill an hour... any higher and you were in one of those "elite" fleets.
Yes 3 logi's but most spend more on their logi ship so they can get more out of it. To get all 4 reps being T2 my guardian has a Bailey plate on it, which is more than 500 mill on it's own.
And still if those logi's go down you can be losing up to 8 deadspace and faction fit Vindicators, Nightmares, Machariels... And they will all die in seconds if the logi's are down...
How often do your fleets come under attack? I imagine being in your fortress of a WH system that you have scouts every where not to mention Warp disruption bubbles on any holes while your fleets are active.
Because the Incursion fleets are out in the open for anyone to attempt a logi gank. And they do try, with some success.
yes the reward is higher because people can ambush, jump us not because the silly carrier pilot can get dced. we don't consider it's risk, period.
noone fly in wh talks about their logistcs can dc, they only talk about the real risk which is people ambush when running sleeper sites. |
Dame Judi Dench
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 21:28:00 -
[134] - Quote
My 2-ó: suspending CONCORD in high-sec incursions by itself probably would have been enough. At the very least, the killmails would be hilarious and the tears delicious. Beyond that,just decrease the payouts for VGs. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
881
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 00:42:00 -
[135] - Quote
AstarothPrime wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:
Where did I cry nerf/unnerf? I'll be nice to you and let you off with just that.
Actually IDK why I commented on your post... My apologies, ment to simple reply to thread... I. No worries. Just to be clear, I was pointing out at how ironic some of the posts were, that's all.
Astaroth is my goto in SC |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 01:33:00 -
[136] - Quote
Liliana Rahl wrote:When are you people going to learn that rats, no matter the form, do not constitute risk? Once they stop killing titans. :p |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 01:41:00 -
[137] - Quote
Gonzo TheGreat wrote:
Also, the amount of shinies in your fleet means it is risk free. If it wasn't then you wouldn't put that much money into one ship that is about to die any minute.
You logic is flawed. And titans proof this. Why would anyone using a blap titan if it could die any minute ;-)
And so far I have not seen anyone claim that VGs are great risk. Actually shiny ships even increase the risk, not as much as they increase the income, but they really do, because you become a regular gank targets in shiny ships and more important:
If something goes wrong the lose is greater; you are risking more, even when the risk that something bad happens is low.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 01:43:00 -
[138] - Quote
To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:
Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.
This is of course ignoring the technical difficulty which could be involved in making sec status and penalties dynamic in the first place. Add to that the implications on highsec route plotting/auto piloting. The concept seems simple but I'd be willing to bet the implementation is anything but. |
Gonzo TheGreat
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 03:19:00 -
[139] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Gonzo TheGreat wrote:
Also, the amount of shinies in your fleet means it is risk free. If it wasn't then you wouldn't put that much money into one ship that is about to die any minute.
You logic is flawed. And titans proof this. Why would anyone using a blap titan if it could die any minute ;-) And so far I have not seen anyone claim that VGs are great risk. Actually shiny ships even increase the risk, not as much as they increase the income, but they really do, because you become a regular gank targets in shiny ships and more important: If something goes wrong the lose is greater; you are risking more, even when the risk that something bad happens is low.
Because those titans are not solely for PvE ? because they can turn the tide of a battle ? because they are actually USED in PVP to defend their territory. They are not just fancy POS decorations ! Because as someone I know said, with a titan every hour is "Hot-Drop O' Clock" (a.k.a. Bridge). And it goes on and on ... !
If shinier ships just increase the risk and not just the income, then your logic is flawed. Why put so much shiny on it ! |
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 03:49:00 -
[140] - Quote
Good god some of you idiots actually think that the "smart AI" rats in Incursions constitute "risk." |
|
Cobalt Rookits
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 04:40:00 -
[141] - Quote
Liliana Rahl wrote:Good god some of you idiots actually think that the "smart AI" rats in Incursions constitute "risk."
Go into a site by yourself then, after all its no "risk". |
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 04:56:00 -
[142] - Quote
ITT: pubbies think hisec incursions are high-risk
News at 11. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 06:16:00 -
[143] - Quote
Gonzo TheGreat wrote:Tenris Anis wrote:
And so far I have not seen anyone claim that VGs are great risk. Actually shiny ships even increase the risk, not as much as they increase the income, but they really do, because you become a regular gank targets in shiny ships and more important:
If something goes wrong the lose is greater; you are risking more, even when the risk that something bad happens is low.
If shinier ships just increase the risk and not just the income, then your logic is flawed. Why put so much shiny on it !
There you go, I even made it bold for you, my logic seems just fine. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 06:20:00 -
[144] - Quote
I don't even mind the VG nerf...they were supposed to be entry-level sites, so it's working as intended now. But why the hell did they nerf HQs? |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 06:21:00 -
[145] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:
Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.
Yes. A low sec pocket right in the middle of high sec, with ammunition available, safe travel to the system and very good rewards for doing them? I am sure they would be played. Hey, even low sec incursions were done before the patch. I do not think people would keep using shiny ships, but the low sec bonus is big enough to just use cheap t1 ships. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 06:27:00 -
[146] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Yes. A low sec pocket right in the middle of high sec, with ammunition available, safe travel to the system and very good rewards for doing them? I am sure they would be played by griefers. Hey, even low sec incursions were done by TEST before the patch. I do not think people would keep using shiny ships, but the low sec bonus is big enough to just use cheap t1 ships.
fixed
Moving it to lowsec makes no sense, but making those systems into lowsec makes even less sense. It would be a constant disruption to trade routes, and you'd have people log off in highsec only to find themselves camped in station in a lowsec system when they relog, or worse, log in from space and land in the middle of a gatecamp. Not so bad if you're in a BC....pretty awful if you're in a freighter or somesuch. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 06:31:00 -
[147] - Quote
Cobalt Rookits wrote:Liliana Rahl wrote:Good god some of you idiots actually think that the "smart AI" rats in Incursions constitute "risk." Go into a site by yourself then, after all its no "risk". good god, gtf out of hisec |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 06:43:00 -
[148] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Cobalt Rookits wrote:Liliana Rahl wrote:Good god some of you idiots actually think that the "smart AI" rats in Incursions constitute "risk." Go into a site by yourself then, after all its no "risk". good god, gtf out of hisec Because incursions exist solely in highsec...
Also, at some points, incoming dps in specific incursion sites can top 10,000 incoming dps, peaking at about 13k in a tcrc. You don't have numbers like that and not have a bit of risk, especially if you're a logi. It might not be other players shooting at you, but you're still depending on a group of logis who sometimes need machine-like efficiency to keep you alive. The same risk as running through gatecamps in nullsec? Not so much. But compared to ratting in your thanatos with nothing but blues for 30 jumps? I'm not so sure. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 06:56:00 -
[149] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:Apolyon I wrote:Cobalt Rookits wrote:Liliana Rahl wrote:Good god some of you idiots actually think that the "smart AI" rats in Incursions constitute "risk." Go into a site by yourself then, after all its no "risk". good god, gtf out of hisec Because incursions exist solely in highsec... Also, at some points, incoming dps in specific incursion sites can top 10,000 incoming dps, peaking at about 13k in a tcrc. You don't have numbers like that and not have a bit of risk, especially if you're a logi. It might not be other players shooting at you, but you're still depending on a group of logis who sometimes need machine-like efficiency to keep you alive. The same risk as running through gatecamps in nullsec? Not so much. But compared to ratting in your thanatos with nothing but blues for 30 jumps? I'm not so sure.
last time I tried warp a marauder into escalated C5 site on sisi, it get instant poped.
and your incursion is ****, you only need 3 logis??
we have to use triage carrier to keep the whole fleet alive and the sleeper has enough neut to neut out the carrier, lucky me that they only did it once, not so lucky that I lost that carrier, but hey, I don't go on forum and whine about that as risk.
so ya, incursion is very risky
and fyi, I dont live in nullsec, I live in wh where ppl don't get aggro timer and can jump after as soon as you jump and bubble the **** up
plus you won't see a fleet jumping on you until a cloaky T3 decloak and point you |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 07:10:00 -
[150] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote: yes the reward is higher because people can ambush, jump us not because the silly carrier pilot can get dced. we don't consider it's risk, period.
noone fly in wh talks about their logistcs can dc, they only talk about the real risk which is people ambush when running sleeper sites.
Yes, logistics DCing isn't that common an error. But when you think of how many sites that are run with an incursion fleet to those of an alliance organised C5 fleet.
I've heard some certain well known groups won't let you fly Triage carrier for them unless the spec of your machine meets their minimum standard, even so asking that you have your eve install on a SSD. So yes, with Alliances and corp fleets it's much easier to enforce a doctrin set up. And if you know one guy has a fairly unstable connection you just don't let him fly the carrier...
But in incursions you can't always vet your pilots so carefully, running many sites continually, you just need a DC in one bad situation to cause a real problem.
I've been in fleet when we've had logi's DC and had several narrow escapes, usually because the spare hi-slots on our BS have additional logistics support. I've even been in a fleet where I lost a Bhaalgorn and a Paladin in incursions, but it doesn't really bother me because incursions paid for those loses and then some. Just like your C5 sites will pay for your loses and then some.
In case you don't get the point I'm making... don't be telling other people they can't shamelessly farm isk when you know that wormhole farming in your C5 is a lower risk:reward ratio. |
|
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 07:28:00 -
[151] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:last time I tried warp a marauder into escalated C5 site on sisi, it get instant poped. http://www.theoffendedblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/evil-pope.jpg
Seriously though, why'd you try to solo a C5?
Quote:and your incursion is ****, you only need 3 logis?? MY incursion? I run HQs primarily when I do incursions. That takes between 9 and 12 logi, depending on the circumstances
You need 3 logi for vanguards, the entry-level site....how many do you need for a C2?
Quote:we have to use triage carrier to keep the whole fleet alive and the sleeper has enough neut to neut out the carrier, lucky me that they only did it once, not so lucky that I lost that carrier, but hey, I don't go on forum and whine about that as risk
so ya, incursion is very risky Point of fact, incursion rats are, per capita, much more dangerous than sleepers. For example, there are single battleships that could neut out your carriers in seconds....except we have no carriers for them to focus on. The most threatening sleeper battleship does about 550 dps, give or take...there's even a frigate in incursions that outdoes it, ffs. You also don't have to deal with ECM, sniper ships, npc fleet boosters, or even strict fleet comp beyond the important roles.
Quote:and fyi, I dont live in nullsec, I live in wh where ppl don't get aggro timer and can jump after as soon as you jump and bubble the **** up Unless you have a highsec static....how many reds do you actually see? I'm curious. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 08:01:00 -
[152] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:Apolyon I wrote:Cobalt Rookits wrote:Liliana Rahl wrote:Good god some of you idiots actually think that the "smart AI" rats in Incursions constitute "risk." Go into a site by yourself then, after all its no "risk". good god, gtf out of hisec Because incursions exist solely in highsec... Also, at some points, incoming dps in specific incursion sites can top 10,000 incoming dps, peaking at about 13k in a tcrc. You don't have numbers like that and not have a bit of risk, especially if you're a logi. It might not be other players shooting at you, but you're still depending on a group of logis who sometimes need machine-like efficiency to keep you alive. The same risk as running through gatecamps in nullsec? Not so much. But compared to ratting in your thanatos with nothing but blues for 30 jumps? I'm not so sure. last time I tried warp a marauder into escalated C5 site on sisi, it get instant poped. and your incursion is ****, you only need 3 logis?? we have to use triage carrier to keep the whole fleet alive and the sleeper has enough neut to neut out the carrier, lucky me that they only did it once, not so lucky that I lost that carrier, but hey, I don't go on forum and whine about that as risk. so ya, incursion is very risky and fyi, I dont live in nullsec, I live in wh where ppl don't get aggro timer and can jump after as soon as you jump and bubble the **** up plus you won't see a fleet jumping on you until a cloaky T3 decloak and point you
FYI, just because you are in wh space, does not change a bit his argument about null sec risk. Furthermore just because you HAVE TO use triage carries does not make it risky per se. It just makes standards logistics unsuited for the job. Actually it makes me wonder why you just have to use a single triage carrier, are they not supposed to be way more effective in pairs?
Can you now please make a real argument? |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 08:25:00 -
[153] - Quote
How did this end up as a ****-swinging contest between PvE content in WH space and Incursions? idgi
"My PvE content is more bad ass than your PvE content" doesn't exactly move the conversation forwards. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 08:37:00 -
[154] - Quote
None of it is "bad ass", you're shooting red crosses. But there isk risk involved...dude here is trying to argue that wormhole content has more of it than equivalent incursion sites but, as best I can tell, was equating a C6 with vanguards.
Leads back to the "risk free isk" argument that so many people are using. |
Kodavor
Mine3
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 08:46:00 -
[155] - Quote
Mr ... can you please educate yourself that there is more to Incursions then only Vanguards ? Once you do that then please return here . |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Robotics Darkmatter Initiative
520
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 08:46:00 -
[156] - Quote
And we're back to the "make incursion sites a duckshoot" argument. Which is as likely to happen as the "Put all L4's in lowsec" argument.
Seriously, if you people are going to whine about carebears, try putting your efforts towards something that is likely to happen, and not something so remotely stupid there aren't even odds for it happening. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 08:57:00 -
[157] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:Leads back to the "risk free isk" argument that so many people are using.
Seems like most people who use that argument haven't run Incursions. It's usually the crutch of people who are angry because they feel like they're not being compensated properly for what ever they do to make their Eve income.
|
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 08:59:00 -
[158] - Quote
If Incursions were such amazing, risk-free ISK why wasn't everyone running them? |
Dark Aiden
Ganja Labs Exodus.
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 09:09:00 -
[159] - Quote
I think personally CCP wants to get less subcribers maybe because..
1) they made mining profitable.....But now it cost double what it use to in order to buy ANYTHING 2) Now that prices have sky rocketed lets completely F*&K OVER INCURSIONS so those who relied on incursions for isk can't
This seems like CCP is just out to fail cascade them selves more then they already are.... |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 09:11:00 -
[160] - Quote
Templar Nato wrote:If Incursions were such amazing, risk-free ISK why wasn't everyone running them?
They are boring? People did not notice? People did not want that ISK anyway? People did not want to make an alt for them? People did not like the nomadic lifestyle? People have better things to do? People needed to defend their tech moon instead? People have no bots to run them? People preferred isk from explorations? People preferred farming sanctums with their titan? People preferred more ISK from Wormholes? Market games are way more profitable than Incursions ever were and so people preferred them? People preferred to afk or bot mine on 10 Accounts? People could make more isk in missions than in bad vg fleets?
There are many good reasons not to run incursions even when they are top money. Just pick one of many reasons, or chose a reason not listed here. |
|
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 09:14:00 -
[161] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Templar Nato wrote:If Incursions were such amazing, risk-free ISK why wasn't everyone running them? They are boring? People did not notice? People did not want that ISK anyway? People did not want to make an alt for them? People did not like the nomadic lifestyle? People have better things to do? People needed to defend their tech moon instead? People have no bots to run them? People preferred isk from explorations? People preferred farming sanctums with their titan? People preferred more ISK from Wormholes? Market games are way more profitable than Incursions ever were and so people preferred them? People preferred to afk or bot mine on 10 Accounts? People could make more isk in missions than in bad vg fleets? There are many good reasons not to run incursions even when they are top money. Just pick one of many reasons, or chose a reason not listed here.
That's pretty well my point ... Even though the ISK was attractive, people weren't running Incursions to the exclusion of everything else. |
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 11:35:00 -
[162] - Quote
i have played this game for a long time. And i quit 2 years ago. Heroes of newerth became more atractive and pirates of the burning sea. Then my friend called me and told me about these incurtions. I went to his house. Saw him runing them and my faith in eve was restored. After the speed nerf they did. And the jump bridges/bubbles/cloaky's they just ruined it for me.
To the od 0.0 guy that is all like "blinged out ships wtf i cant blow it up waaa waaa" stop crying. Just stop it cuz you are pathetic. 0.0 and 0.7 are as difrent as 0.0 0.4 is.
I think ccp shuld be adressing jump bridges in 0.0 rather than this so people like me will actualy want to go pvp in 0.0. Limit the ship size to a capital ship for jump bridges.
If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat.
It was fun to be able to jump in to something realy fast and not have to sit around in a station and spinn your ship. Now its back to siting in a station and spining my ship. Thanks ccp for ruining my hope for this game. |
Castor II
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
38
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 11:58:00 -
[163] - Quote
Gudda wrote:If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat.
Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO. |
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 12:13:00 -
[164] - Quote
Castor II wrote:Gudda wrote:If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat. Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO.
are you sure? Last time i looked they all had bountys+ they drop boxes that gurante you at least 400 mill per a 10/10 complex. And concord buys those boxes? Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
o and complexes drop disks that are sold to concord i think to for at least 50% of the profit you make in a wormhole. |
IMeres
Hellfire Heavy Industries
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 12:15:00 -
[165] - Quote
Castor II wrote:Gudda wrote:If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat. Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO.
According to the latest dev blog on the matter (http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9115) incursion rewards were less than 1/3 of bounties, and yet CCP introduced more bounties with this patch.
Comparing reduction in incursion payouts vs. drones giving bounties right now (and the amount of bots in the Drone regions) I'm quite confident that more ISK will be entering the economy overall. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Robotics Darkmatter Initiative
520
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 12:19:00 -
[166] - Quote
Castor II wrote:Gudda wrote:If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat. Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO.
The economy constantly needs fresh isk being pumped into it. With new players, new characters comes a new demand, otherwise you'd just spread the existing wealth thinner across an increasing playerbase till either everyone has no money or you're one of the few that holds all the cards.
The current economy has gone skewed because of drone changes affecting mineral panic buy affecting ship production costs. A kneejerk reaction to that would be stupid. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 12:20:00 -
[167] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote: FYI, just because you are in wh space, does not change a bit his argument about null sec risk. Furthermore just because you HAVE TO use triage carries does not make it risky per se. It just makes standards logistics unsuited for the job. Actually it makes me wonder why you just have to use a single triage carrier, are they not supposed to be way more effective in pairs?
Can you now please make a real argument?
since when triage carrier need to go in pair??
you sound pretty clueless of how capital level thing works plus remember, once capitals in sites, they're committed until the site is done, no where to run if enemy fleet show up.
have you seen 50b lost from WI? their fleet comp is stupid but that's what you get farming C5 and someone opens to you |
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 12:21:00 -
[168] - Quote
IMeres wrote:Castor II wrote:Gudda wrote:If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat. Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO. According to the latest dev blog on the matter (http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9115) incursion rewards were less than 1/3 of bounties, and yet CCP introduced more bounties with this patch. Comparing reduction in incursion payouts vs. drones giving bounties right now (and the amount of bots in the Drone regions) I'm quite confident that more ISK will be entering the economy overall.
dont forget that they can create a jump bridge from one region to the other. It would be nice if we could make a 4 jump bridge from jita to agil. But we cant can we? Traveling time is longer in 0.5 and above its shorter in 0.4 and in 0.0 you can create your own route trugh space now cant you? Personaly i think jump bridges shuld be nerfd. Changed so that only biger ships can get trugh jump bridges. Titan bridge shuld only be able to drop cruiser and battle ships. And black ops shuld be the ones doing the stealth frigates/battle ships and shuld be the only ships capable of droping frigate sized ships on any one. |
Loysy
PamPam Flying Circus Astromechanica Federatis
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 12:47:00 -
[169] - Quote
Bonjours tous le monde, d+¬sol+¬ pour mon anglais....
Bon d+¬j+á, pourquoi grand nerf sur incursion, je ne dit pas que avec certaine fleet assez rare, c'+¬tait un peux trop rentable pour les vg. Mais, cela restait assez exceptionnel, -10/20% aurai +¬t+¬ correcte pour les VG et m+¬me +10/20% pour les autres type (hq,assault)
Je pense que beaucoup de gens de 0.0 et en WH, parlent +á tord des incursions, il n'en n'ont jamais fait ou peux... Et si c'+¬tait si facile, pourquoi il n'y a pas plus de joueur ne sont pas en train d'en faire...? Quand, je regarde mon ally et corpo amie, on est 3 personnes +á faire des incursion sur plus de 100 personnes. Le risque est l+á avec des ship co++teux, ce n'est pas en fessant 2H dGÇÖincursion que l'on devient riche. Cela demande une tr+¿s bonne organisation, des tr+¿s bon ship, de nombreuse heures, pour arriver +á de bon r+¬sultat, ce qui est rarement le cas.
En ce moment une level 4 est plus rentable en solo avec un bon ship...
Mon avis personnel:
Je trouve le jeux tr+¿s d+¬s+¬quilibr+¬ et ne favorise absolument pas le PVP. Le 0.0 gagne beaucoup trop de isk et est tr+¿s peux risque pour l'ally qui s'y trouve. Le WH est peux dangereux pour sa rentabilit+¬. Le low sec est dangereux, mais on y trouve personne, car il n'y a aucune rentabilit+¬, pourquoi?
Je propose, que l'on supprime le meta 4 en high sec, que le meta 4 soient loot en blet low sec. Que l'on multiplie par 4/5 le pop loot faction en belt low sec . Que les officier pop en belt low sec et pas en 0.0 ou c'est s+¬curis+¬, pour les gens qui y vivent. Que les min+¬raux rare se trouvent en low.
Cela favorisera +¬norm+¬ment le pvp et les risques, donneras au gens de vrais raison pour allez prendre des risques.
Le 0.0, il restera tous ce que l'on trouve habituellement: les moon, les mineraix, les plex 10/10, les mission plus rentable, incursion plus rentable, etc... le tous avec un s+¬curit+¬ assez bonne, vu que les 0.0 est relativement bien s+¬curis+¬.
Quand au Wh, c'est bien trop abus+¬...
C'est mon point de vue bien sur... ^^
|
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:21:00 -
[170] - Quote
To address the issue of the difference between creating isk and transferring isk.
Missions, belt rats, incursions, complex's, anoms, exploration, sleeper npc's, selling plex and mining... al of these activities creates isk out of thin air.
The bonus is for some of these activities you are also given loot, which does sell for a lot of isk... But one thing I'm unsure of, is who buys the majority of faction/deadspace modules in hi-sec. Because as I remember it's mostly incursion runners. That incursions have actually helped to increase the market for high-meta modules. That running complex's and such is more profitable today because of incursions.
The price of faction stasis webs is an obvious indicator. Federation Navy Webs were less than half their current price when incursions started. But since they kinda became a standard for most BS running Vanguards the prices rocketed.
Meaning everyone that farms their tags and hands them in to create fed navy webs (lvl4 mission runners) are getting more money for their LP.
The same goes for Faction Damage mods, EANM's and Tracking enhancers/computers. All of these have increased in price, partly thanks to incursion runners.
The same can go for the T2 rig sales. They have went up also with the popularity of incursions.
So, tell me how incursion runners are bad for the economy in eve... when we help stimulate the economy for people looting/producing these items. |
|
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1386
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:31:00 -
[171] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:
Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.
This is of course ignoring the technical difficulty which could be involved in making sec status and penalties dynamic in the first place. Add to that the implications on highsec route plotting/auto piloting. The concept seems simple but I'd be willing to bet the implementation is anything but. Sigh. Okay, here's how you solve the "problem" of the incursion constellation going lowsec: Stage up in a neighboring highsec. Come through the gate with your incursion fleet put together so that any gate camp will have to fight an organized high-DPS fleet with logi support. If you bring 2-3 VG fleets through at the same time we're talking a 30-ship fleet full of battleships and T3s with a half-dozen logis supporting them. With a marginally competent FC, they'd demolish almost anything they run across. This would be a lowsec pocket in the middle of highsec, not FW or borderland low. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Robotics Darkmatter Initiative
520
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:39:00 -
[172] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:
Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.
This is of course ignoring the technical difficulty which could be involved in making sec status and penalties dynamic in the first place. Add to that the implications on highsec route plotting/auto piloting. The concept seems simple but I'd be willing to bet the implementation is anything but. Sigh. Okay, here's how you solve the "problem" of the incursion constellation going lowsec: Stage up in a neighboring highsec. Come through the gate with your incursion fleet put together so that any gate camp will have to fight an organized high-DPS fleet with logi support. If you bring 2-3 VG fleets through at the same time we're talking a 30-ship fleet full of battleships and T3s with a half-dozen logis supporting them. With a marginally competent FC, they'd demolish almost anything they run across. This would be a lowsec pocket in the middle of highsec, not FW or borderland low.
Because they're only going to engage in gatecamps and not come flying into the actual incursion plexes with significantly more x your fleet's number and just roflstomp you. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:39:00 -
[173] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:
Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.
This is of course ignoring the technical difficulty which could be involved in making sec status and penalties dynamic in the first place. Add to that the implications on highsec route plotting/auto piloting. The concept seems simple but I'd be willing to bet the implementation is anything but. Sigh. Okay, here's how you solve the "problem" of the incursion constellation going lowsec: Stage up in a neighboring highsec. Come through the gate with your incursion fleet put together so that any gate camp will have to fight an organized high-DPS fleet with logi support. If you bring 2-3 VG fleets through at the same time we're talking a 30-ship fleet full of battleships and T3s with a half-dozen logis supporting them. With a marginally competent FC, they'd demolish almost anything they run across. This would be a lowsec pocket in the middle of highsec, not FW or borderland low.
That's all ok if you are an organized group already... Test and Goon do that for their low-sec incursions. But I believe the idea of incursions were to bring people together to work as a group without needing to already be all blue'd out or alliance mates already. That it was to build a community feel and give people a sense of working together...
In saying that, I wouldn't mind a delay being added to concord in Incursion constellations. Would even play into the storyline of they are busy fighting back the Sansha so their response time is reduced. But complete suspension would just lead to more problems... for instance pipelines would cut off much of hi-sec from others. Can you imagine the amount of complaints there would be if someone set autopilot on their freighter and then while they were heading towards Jita an incursion spawned around them and suddenly they lose a freighter. |
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:51:00 -
[174] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:
Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.
This is of course ignoring the technical difficulty which could be involved in making sec status and penalties dynamic in the first place. Add to that the implications on highsec route plotting/auto piloting. The concept seems simple but I'd be willing to bet the implementation is anything but. Sigh. Okay, here's how you solve the "problem" of the incursion constellation going lowsec: Stage up in a neighboring highsec. Come through the gate with your incursion fleet put together so that any gate camp will have to fight an organized high-DPS fleet with logi support. If you bring 2-3 VG fleets through at the same time we're talking a 30-ship fleet full of battleships and T3s with a half-dozen logis supporting them. With a marginally competent FC, they'd demolish almost anything they run across. This would be a lowsec pocket in the middle of highsec, not FW or borderland low.
How about this? A incurtion in 0.0 The gang all warps to a tower in system with a jump bridge and WAM they are 10 jumps away from the fleet that you just spent the last 10 hours forming up so that you could gank these scurvy incurtion pilots in 0.0?
|
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1386
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:06:00 -
[175] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Missions, belt rats, incursions, complex's, anoms, exploration, sleeper npc's, selling plex and mining... al of these activities creates isk out of thin air.
No, mining does not create isk. It creates ore, which is sold on the market for existing isk. No new isk is injected into the system by mining. Here are the isk faucets that I know about, in no particular order
- Mission rewards - Incursion rewards - Bounties (from missions, ratting, exploration, and...do incursion rats have bounties? I never really paid attention to that detail. - NPC buy orders (sleeper loot, Overseer effects)
Tech moons, ore, sleeper salvage, faction/officer mods...none of those contribute to inflation. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Robotics Darkmatter Initiative
520
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:11:00 -
[176] - Quote
Incursion rats do not have bounties.
Missions and Incursions however also have isk sinks in their overall mechanics. Ratting bounties/Exploration bounties and NPC buy orders do not. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1386
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:17:00 -
[177] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Because they're only going to engage in gatecamps and not come flying into the actual incursion plexes with significantly more x your fleet's number and just roflstomp you.
...in a lowsec pocket, surrounded by highsec and full of incursioners. You think they're going to land 15+ ships in an OTA, stomp the incursion fleet, and gtfo without losing ships? And then they'll...what? Take their newly-trashed sec status and haul off to another incursion?
You're not thinking this through. Wiping a full fleet in an incursion would drop your sec status HARD. The people looking to do this wouldn't have a lot of sec to spare in the first place and would quickly plummet into the realm of "free kill" while they are surrounded by high-DPS fleets. Incursion piracy would actually be incredibly hard in such situations.
xVx dreadnaught wrote: I believe the idea of incursions were to bring people together to work as a group without needing to already be all blue'd out or alliance mates already. That it was to build a community feel and give people a sense of working together....
And that would all still be possible. Like I said, build your fleet in highsec, then enter the incursion. A little scouting/intel and you'll have more than enough to smash/chase off any would-be gatecamp.
Gudda wrote:How about this? A incurtion in 0.0 The gang all warps to a tower in system with a jump bridge and WAM they are 10 jumps away from the fleet that you just spent the last 10 hours forming up so that you could gank these scurvy incurtion pilots in 0.0?
How about it? Force projection in 0.0 is a completely different conversation and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Kodavor
Mine3
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:24:00 -
[178] - Quote
How about you Mr. Floppie ? How about you go and actualy do them incursions now ? Get into a ship . Go into BTL Pub and get a fleet . Run for 3 hours ( counting from the moment you posted your fit for the first time and asked for a fleet ) and see how good you do . Don't post anything here untill that . |
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:40:00 -
[179] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Because they're only going to engage in gatecamps and not come flying into the actual incursion plexes with significantly more x your fleet's number and just roflstomp you. ...in a lowsec pocket, surrounded by highsec and full of incursioners. You think they're going to land 15+ ships in an OTA, stomp the incursion fleet, and gtfo without losing ships? And then they'll...what? Take their newly-trashed sec status and haul off to another incursion? You're not thinking this through. Wiping a full fleet in an incursion would drop your sec status HARD. The people looking to do this wouldn't have a lot of sec to spare in the first place and would quickly plummet into the realm of "free kill" while they are surrounded by high-DPS fleets. Incursion piracy would actually be incredibly hard in such situations. xVx dreadnaught wrote: I believe the idea of incursions were to bring people together to work as a group without needing to already be all blue'd out or alliance mates already. That it was to build a community feel and give people a sense of working together.... And that would all still be possible. Like I said, build your fleet in highsec, then enter the incursion. A little scouting/intel and you'll have more than enough to smash/chase off any would-be gatecamp. Gudda wrote:How about this? A incurtion in 0.0 The gang all warps to a tower in system with a jump bridge and WAM they are 10 jumps away from the fleet that you just spent the last 10 hours forming up so that you could gank these scurvy incurtion pilots in 0.0? How about it? Force projection in 0.0 is a completely different conversation and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed.
ore is not created? Dude how long have you been playing eve? You make no sense at all. Do you even know what game you are playing? What hapens wen a ship is blown up. Does the isk get moved to the guy that blew that ship up? You are trying to talk aloot of sense into us here good sir but you are not making any sense your self, Have you run incurtions? Have you been in low sec hi sec null sec wormhole space? Have you been a part of a big alliance and got sucked into the bloody politics? How old are you ? |
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
97
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:41:00 -
[180] - Quote
Kodavor wrote:How about you Mr. Floppie ? How about you go and actualy do them incursions now ? Get into a ship . Go into BTL Pub and get a fleet . Run for 3 hours ( counting from the moment you posted your fit for the first time and asked for a fleet ) and see how good you do . Don't post anything here untill that .
heh... be kinda hard for him... I understand he is on every single blacklist related to incursions in the game
-Arazel |
|
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Robotics Darkmatter Initiative
520
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:41:00 -
[181] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Because they're only going to engage in gatecamps and not come flying into the actual incursion plexes with significantly more x your fleet's number and just roflstomp you. ...in a lowsec pocket, surrounded by highsec and full of incursioners. You think they're going to land 15+ ships in an OTA, stomp the incursion fleet, and gtfo without losing ships? And then they'll...what? Take their newly-trashed sec status and haul off to another incursion? You're not thinking this through. Wiping a full fleet in an incursion would drop your sec status HARD. The people looking to do this wouldn't have a lot of sec to spare in the first place and would quickly plummet into the realm of "free kill" while they are surrounded by high-DPS fleets. Incursion piracy would actually be incredibly hard in such situations.
Really, you haven't thought about the logistics? A group that wanted to could easily have alts ship their stuff from constellation to constellation while they podwarp across highsec. Orcas and/or freighters cover everything they need.
Quite frankly dropping 20-30+ ships on a 10 man fleet already taking damage with an idea of their fleet comp before you even go in? Yeah, it's doable and would happen as soon as this idiotic idea would be put in the game. You forget this is EVE, if something is achievable, there'll be a group there to pull it off. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:43:00 -
[182] - Quote
Arazel Chainfire wrote:Kodavor wrote:How about you Mr. Floppie ? How about you go and actualy do them incursions now ? Get into a ship . Go into BTL Pub and get a fleet . Run for 3 hours ( counting from the moment you posted your fit for the first time and asked for a fleet ) and see how good you do . Don't post anything here untill that . heh... be kinda hard for him... I understand he is on every single blacklist related to incursions in the game -Arazel
Even if he wasent black listed. I Got a nightmare. I want to run incurtions. And for the last 2 days i have been on the channels posting my fits joining all the groups and yet NO FLEETS? why ? cause there are none. If you have a incurtion fleet up and running and need a high dps nightmare hit me up! ive been waiting for the last 4 hours for a fleet! |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1387
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:59:00 -
[183] - Quote
Kodavor wrote:How about you Mr. Floppie ? How about you go and actualy do them incursions now ? Get into a ship . Go into BTL Pub and get a fleet I'll just stop you there, because that's where you plan falls apart. I'm on every incursion blacklist there is It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1387
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:01:00 -
[184] - Quote
Gudda wrote:ore is not created? Dude how long have you been playing eve? You make no sense at all. Do you even know what game you are playing? What hapens wen a ship is blown up. Does the isk get moved to the guy that blew that ship up? You are trying to talk aloot of sense into us here good sir but you are not making any sense your self, Have you run incurtions? Have you been in low sec hi sec null sec wormhole space? Have you been a part of a big alliance and got sucked into the bloody politics? How old are you ? What I said:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:No, mining does not create isk. It creates ore. What you read:
???????? It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1387
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:12:00 -
[185] - Quote
Gudda wrote:Even if he wasent black listed. I Got a nightmare. I want to run incurtions. And for the last 2 days i have been on the channels posting my fits joining all the groups and yet NO FLEETS? why ? cause there are none. If you have a incurtion fleet up and running and need a high dps nightmare hit me up! ive been waiting for the last 4 hours for a fleet! I have a Nightmare, too. How I got it is why I'm blacklisted :D
Butterflies born the day the patch came out haven't even died yet, and everyone is throwing up their hands and acting like it's just the end of incursions. That should tell you just how "fun" incursions really are, when people simply bail out of them as soon as the isk faucet gets turned down. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
IMeres
Hellfire Heavy Industries
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:26:00 -
[186] - Quote
The more I think about it, the more I start believing that this Incursion nerf is either CCP being dumb (as usual) or simply a marketing move.
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree the ISK/hr was a bit too much and it needed a nerf, but in the context of what's currently happening in eve it's pretty hard to understand the real aim of this nerf.
Is it to reduce the amount of ISK entering the economy? If so, why add an arguably bigger ISK faucet in the same patch (Drone bounties)?
Is it because too few people are accumulating too much isk ? If so how come tech (and moon mining in general, if it's not tech it will be a new bottleneck for tech 2 production) is still untouched? There's maybe 1500-2000 ppl doing incursions, and substantially less that are getting their hands on tech ISK (which is a few ordes of magnitude more that incursion payouts).
And before you say 'it's part of a bigger income rebalance CCP will get to later', I've been playing since 2007 and I can't name a single thing that CCP promised to iterate on at a later date and actually has..
Only reason I can see (barring cluelessness) is that it's a marketing move to appease the economic doomsayers (EVE economy does have a problem, since isk enters the game almost 2x as fast than it exits). They can pound their chests proudly and say 'we're doing something', and the incursion community is not large enough to cause much of a stir (or income issues even if they all quit). |
Loysy
PamPam Flying Circus Astromechanica Federatis
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:01:00 -
[187] - Quote
I have many bad economist ^^
More isk is good for pvp More isk is good for economy --> many buy More isk is good for mining --> many build More isk is only bad for Plex
Stopping plex trade and finished problem... ^^ |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
187
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:22:00 -
[188] - Quote
Loysy wrote:I have many bad economist ^^
More isk is good for pvp --> more loss More isk is good for economy --> many buy More isk is good for mining --> many build More isk is only bad for Plex
Stopping plex trade and finished problem... ^^
Install a decreasing price over time for the player and other accout and problem is resolved, the economy was never as good as now...
Less isk is very bad for economy...and player.
Anyway there are players who hate to farme, which will buy always plex... It will always be easier to work one hour Irl more than farmer Not bother to hide the eyes, I'm right
Not enough producers and too many isk farmers -> Economy is in full failcascade mode if you haven't looked at the prices recently, no amount of isk farming is going to make enough isk soon to buy ships and modules. T2 prices have more than doubled and are set to explode even higher. |
Loysy
PamPam Flying Circus Astromechanica Federatis
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:31:00 -
[189] - Quote
Yes before, producers and miner is bad for win isk. Now is better, with time many producers and miner come back, before they were discouraged. The economy naturally going to be balanced. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:38:00 -
[190] - Quote
these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.
they're mad because they're in their right place.
if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you |
|
Miss Yanumano
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:47:00 -
[191] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.
they're mad because they're in their right place.
if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you
So what do you have to say to null/low sec Incursion runners that got hit too? |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:49:00 -
[192] - Quote
Miss Yanumano wrote:Apolyon I wrote:these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.
they're mad because they're in their right place.
if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you So what do you have to say to null/low sec Incursion runners that got hit too? I dont see any nullsec corps complaining.
and since when NPC corps run incursion in nullsec????? |
Loysy
PamPam Flying Circus Astromechanica Federatis
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:52:00 -
[193] - Quote
This is wrong, the 0.0 has always been encouraged for isk. The high is no good for isk. Many player no live 0,0, Because, he have no time to play long time and there is quite a constraint. Only the low sec is very bad for the isk and very discouraged. |
Lord MuffloN
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:54:00 -
[194] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Miss Yanumano wrote:Apolyon I wrote:these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.
they're mad because they're in their right place.
if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you So what do you have to say to null/low sec Incursion runners that got hit too? I dont see any nullsec corps complaining. and since when NPC corps run incursion in nullsec?????
Let's try this again, the null/low sec Incursion runners have gone back (Hint: CFC Incursion group is dead now) to running Sanctums/Havens/Hubs solo in a Tengu because it's better ISK/h than Incursions, less risk and cost and we can still hang on comms because we're CFC wide, not just a public group.
Good enough you intellectually dishonest fool with an agenda? |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:57:00 -
[195] - Quote
Lord MuffloN wrote:Apolyon I wrote:Miss Yanumano wrote:Apolyon I wrote:these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.
they're mad because they're in their right place.
if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you So what do you have to say to null/low sec Incursion runners that got hit too? I dont see any nullsec corps complaining. and since when NPC corps run incursion in nullsec????? Let's try this again, the null/low sec Incursion runners have gone back (Hint: CFC Incursion group is dead now) to running Sanctums/Havens/Hubs solo in a Tengu because it's better ISK/h than Incursions, less risk and cost and we can still hang on comms because we're CFC wide, not just a public group. Good enough you intellectually dishonest fool with an agenda?
dont be mad, I didn't say anything about null/low in my post, can you read?? |
Lord MuffloN
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:03:00 -
[196] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Lord MuffloN wrote:Apolyon I wrote:Miss Yanumano wrote:Apolyon I wrote:these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.
they're mad because they're in their right place.
if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you So what do you have to say to null/low sec Incursion runners that got hit too? I dont see any nullsec corps complaining. and since when NPC corps run incursion in nullsec????? Let's try this again, the null/low sec Incursion runners have gone back (Hint: CFC Incursion group is dead now) to running Sanctums/Havens/Hubs solo in a Tengu because it's better ISK/h than Incursions, less risk and cost and we can still hang on comms because we're CFC wide, not just a public group. Good enough you intellectually dishonest fool with an agenda? dont be mad, I didn't say anything about null/low in my post, can you read??
Your intellectual/argumental fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Now tell, me where did I ever say that you had commented on that? I didn't? Oh I didn't, I asked you a question that you didn't want to answer, why? Why wouldn't you just answer the question? Got something to hide?
EDIT: Also, we've seen people in NPC corps running low sec Incursions, we killed them and drove them off. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:07:00 -
[197] - Quote
Lord MuffloN wrote:Your intellectual/argumental fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manNow tell, me where did I ever say that you had commented on that? I didn't? Oh I didn't, I asked you a question that you didn't want to answer, why? Why wouldn't you just answer the question? Got something to hide? EDIT: Also, we've seen people in NPC corps running low sec Incursions, we killed them and drove them off, to answer your question. In before "ohlololol it was troll u stupid testie huehuehue" to deflect any shortcomings of your posting. my thought about LS,NS https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1191897#post1191897
I'm happy with nerf on hisec incursion, I dont give a f*ck about you NS, if you want, complain with CCP |
Lord MuffloN
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:10:00 -
[198] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Lord MuffloN wrote:Your intellectual/argumental fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manNow tell, me where did I ever say that you had commented on that? I didn't? Oh I didn't, I asked you a question that you didn't want to answer, why? Why wouldn't you just answer the question? Got something to hide? EDIT: Also, we've seen people in NPC corps running low sec Incursions, we killed them and drove them off, to answer your question. In before "ohlololol it was troll u stupid testie huehuehue" to deflect any shortcomings of your posting. my thought about LS,NS https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1191897#post1191897I'm happy with nerf on hisec incursion, I dont give a f*ck about you NS, if you want, complain with CCP
Well you see, low/null sec Incursions are now very very dead due to reasons explained earlier, so you won't have those targets, now tell me, does that not affect you as you claim to percive them as such?
EDIT: And of course we agree on the nerfs to high sec Incursions, screw them all to hell, they're putting nothing on the line. |
DJ N00B
National Order Of Bastards Yearning
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:22:00 -
[199] - Quote
The truth here is that some fleets could make 160 mil/hr but that is only during peak optimal conditions. We're talking shiny blitz fleet catered to do OTA's, running nothing but OTA's in that hour. having no competition, not having to wait for sites to spawn, and not having to swap anyone out in fleet. How often does that happen? Rarely. Now that is for shield fleets. Legion fleets could make that and more doing NCO's, but again we are talking optimal conditions here.
The reality is that most decently run fleets were making about half that. Pug fleets were making even less. Then when you factor in taking breaks, keeping fleet comp together, site competition, waiting for site spawns, etc etc. All those things drop the isk/hr substantially and it only gets worse during peak times or when there are fewer incursions availble. Then you add in the fact that more and more people were running incursions and this again was already reducing the isk/hr due to more frequent over crowding. So again the reality here is that most incursion runners were only making on average 60-100 mil isk/hour. That is really nothing go all QQing about. There are many other places you can make that kind of isk and more.
I think most people agree that the blitzing fleets making 160/mil an hour needed to stop. Granted again that is only during peak optimal conditions but still, that isk/hour potential is far greater than many other isk earning opportunities in the game. However CCP has gone WAY to far with this nerf.
First off lets talk potential isk/hour. As it stands today, If you were to optimize your fleet to run only NCO's you can do them in about 5min. So in total peak optimal conditions you might be able to make 120 mil isk/hour. The problem with that is your fleet is going to be totally screwed in other sites where nmc's might take you 10min and OTA's will take you much longer than that. So that isk/hour number is rarely going to happen. So even with optimal conditions (shiny fleet, no competition, no breaks/waiting) your maximum isk potential is about 70mil isk/hour. The reality is that you will have breaks etc, so you fleets will only be making about 50-60 mil isk/hour. Now those numbers are for nice shiny/experienced fleets. Pug fleets are going to make half that. The end result here is where are talking about a earnings potential reduction upwards of 50%. Sure, many who run incursions love the community aspect and this is a big part of it. However the fact is that we all need to make isk and these drastic cuts in earning potential is forcing people to make the decision to go elsewhere.
So what has this done.....
- Many of the incursion groups/channels have gone quiet. Experienced incursion runners, as well as a number of fc's, have seen their isk/hour drop so dramatically that they have decided to go do other things in eve because they can make more isk/hour.
- Those who are still interested in running incursions are spending hours trying to find fleets and this includes those with nice shiny ships.
- Those fleets that are running have got wait lists so long that most people end up dropping off before they even get into a fleet, and those people will likely end up just giving up on incursions all together becuase it just takes too long to get in to a fleet.
- PUG fleets are non existant. Again, the isk/hour has dropped so low for these groups that they just can't be bothered with them anymore. Plus, with the added focus fire of npc's, as well as time it takes to remove dps off the field, vanguards have become much more risky for these groups and the risk/reward is far too great for them to be worth doing.
- Without PUG fleets, new pilots/incursion runners no longer have an avenue to get into running incursions. The end result is that the talent pool for pilots will VERY quickly dry up.
The end result of all of this is that CCP has effectively destroyed incursions and the incursion community. You will have a scattering of shiny fleets that might still run vg's as well as some that might move to assaults. For many though, the risk vs reward just isn't worth it to make the move. You'll have the usual suspects that currently run as/hq's that will continue to do so. But, eventually the talent pool will dry up and even those with large and experienced communities will start finding it hard to maintain their fleets with the resulting impact on isk/hour causing many to just give up on incursions all together.
CCP, you stated that incursions were one of the best things to come to eve and that community aspect was something you wanted to maintain. Then you turn around and destroy it. GREAT JOB CCP!
|
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:29:00 -
[200] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Lord MuffloN wrote:Your intellectual/argumental fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manNow tell, me where did I ever say that you had commented on that? I didn't? Oh I didn't, I asked you a question that you didn't want to answer, why? Why wouldn't you just answer the question? Got something to hide? EDIT: Also, we've seen people in NPC corps running low sec Incursions, we killed them and drove them off, to answer your question. In before "ohlololol it was troll u stupid testie huehuehue" to deflect any shortcomings of your posting. my thought about LS,NS https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1191897#post1191897I'm happy with nerf on hisec incursion, I dont give a f*ck about you NS, if you want, complain with CCP
why does it make you happy?
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Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
11
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Posted - 2012.04.26 19:31:00 -
[201] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.
A good chunk of incursioners live in null sec, myself included.
Apolyon I wrote:they're mad because they're in their right place.
if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you
Please read the thread. A lot of us have stated that we would have been fine with a single Nerf (either make the sites longer or reduce the ISK payout per site). Double nerfing incursions has made them a waste of time to run.
Apolyon I wrote:I dont see any nullsec corps complaining.
Again, please read the thread. A number of people have stated their frustration that low sec and 0.0 Incursions were nerfed as well as the high sec ones. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:56:00 -
[202] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Gudda wrote:Even if he wasent black listed. I Got a nightmare. I want to run incurtions. And for the last 2 days i have been on the channels posting my fits joining all the groups and yet NO FLEETS? why ? cause there are none. If you have a incurtion fleet up and running and need a high dps nightmare hit me up! ive been waiting for the last 4 hours for a fleet! I have a Nightmare, too. How I got it is why I'm blacklisted :D Butterflies born the day the patch came out haven't even died yet, and everyone is throwing up their hands and acting like it's just the end of incursions. That should tell you just how "fun" incursions really are, when people simply bail out of them as soon as the isk faucet gets turned down.
While I agree, you have to admit the a decent rewards helps to make good content better. Not that incursions are that good content, but they are better content than L4s and should give better isk than l4 imo. Which they seem to give anymore, which leads me to my call for a mission nerf. |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:07:00 -
[203] - Quote
lol tho
I like how the nullbears qq switched to their true targets after ppl started crying "Incursions r ded".
QQ moar about them lvl 4s guys, keep up the good fight an I bet CCP will care...
Only way theyll actually care is if you quit en masse and put in the reason line "lvl 4s arent in low/null" maybe then theyd care. Seems theyre still all about watch what they do not wwhat they say.
Tenris Anis wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Gudda wrote:Even if he wasent black listed. I Got a nightmare. I want to run incurtions. And for the last 2 days i have been on the channels posting my fits joining all the groups and yet NO FLEETS? why ? cause there are none. If you have a incurtion fleet up and running and need a high dps nightmare hit me up! ive been waiting for the last 4 hours for a fleet! I have a Nightmare, too. How I got it is why I'm blacklisted :D Butterflies born the day the patch came out haven't even died yet, and everyone is throwing up their hands and acting like it's just the end of incursions. That should tell you just how "fun" incursions really are, when people simply bail out of them as soon as the isk faucet gets turned down. While I agree, you have to admit the a decent rewards helps to make good content better. Not that incursions are that good content, but they are better content than L4s and should give better isk than l4 imo. Which they seem to give anymore, which leads me to my call for a mission nerf.
QQ missions *put in incorsions* QQ Incursions *Nerf incursions* QQ Missions So if they nerf missions guess what is next... QQ Incursions
While 0.0 guys quietly nom infinite income from tech moons all in the name of "fair". We dont need YOUR for of fair.
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
276
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Posted - 2012.04.26 20:25:00 -
[204] - Quote
DJ N00B wrote: CCP, you stated that incursions were one of the best things to come to eve and that community aspect was something you wanted to maintain. Then you turn around and destroy it. GREAT JOB CCP!
Perhaps they pulled head from ass and realized Incursions were actually one of the worst thing they had ever added to EVE. Also as evidenced by all the whines it was mostly about the risk free fountain of ISK not any community BS.
DJ N00B wrote: - Those fleets that are running have got wait lists so long that most people end up dropping off before they even get into a fleet, and those people will likely end up just giving up on incursions all together becuase it just takes too long to get in to a fleet.
So there's lots of players waiting to get in an exiting fleet rather than taking the initiative and forming their own with all these others waiting?
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:05:00 -
[205] - Quote
Xorv wrote:DJ N00B wrote: CCP, you stated that incursions were one of the best things to come to eve and that community aspect was something you wanted to maintain. Then you turn around and destroy it. GREAT JOB CCP!
Perhaps they pulled head from ass and realized Incursions were actually one of the worst thing they had ever added to EVE. Also as evidenced by all the whines it was mostly about the risk free fountain of ISK not any community BS. DJ N00B wrote: - Those fleets that are running have got wait lists so long that most people end up dropping off before they even get into a fleet, and those people will likely end up just giving up on incursions all together becuase it just takes too long to get in to a fleet.
So there's lots of players waiting to get in an exiting fleet rather than taking the initiative and forming their own with all these others waiting? If incursion runners where the only ones to ever complain when they had their income nerfed then your point might be valid, but amongst any group there are people who participate for the isk. When the isk is gone they leave. Regardless of how much enjoyment is there, if it doesn't pay the bills it's not worth doing for them. It was obvious if incursions were nerfed this would happen, but it needed to be done. But if it's lower than other isk in highsec then we come to a situation where you are effectively taking a hit by doing them. So you have to choose, PvE that is less boring and more social than other PvE but makes you less (assuming you are somewhat efficient at missions and can beat the 30-40m/h numbers people are giving now) or do more boring PvE but get more out of it and have to do it less to get to the aspects you truly enjoy.
Taking that into account it makes sense that people would leave even if they did like them. |
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
0
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:14:00 -
[206] - Quote
well i am going to make it my goal to crack the code of incurtions . Drop the time down to 6 minutes per site. Put it up on youtube. And give all you haters the middle finger :D chao bello |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
15
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:15:00 -
[207] - Quote
I clearly stated that I have no hard feeling for NS, if CCP overnerf NS incursion, it's their fault.
I totally agree with CCP nerf on hisec incursion |
Loysy
PamPam Flying Circus Astromechanica Federatis
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:18:00 -
[208] - Quote
I like incution, but I do not do without an income / risk appropriate It was already difficult to get a fleet before, so now it's really unrealistic. I like the isk for my asset, i no need, i have isk for buy 2000 year accout. |
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ISD LoneLynx
Community Communications Liaisons
3
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:29:00 -
[209] - Quote
Minor deletions. Please be constructive and refrain from personal attacks. ISD LoneLynx Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1411
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:50:00 -
[210] - Quote
Gudda wrote:well i am going to make it my goal to crack the code of incurtions . Drop the time down to 6 minutes per site. Put it up on youtube. And give all you haters the middle finger :D chao bello And I will applaud your tenacity and creativity. If you can put together a group that will put in the time to learn how to optimize the new system, you'll deserve every bit of isk you make. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
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xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
28
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Posted - 2012.04.26 22:03:00 -
[211] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote: I clearly stated that I have no hard feeling for NS, if CCP overnerf NS incursion, it's their fault.
I totally agree with CCP nerf on hisec incursion
Incursions are incursions. Null, Low or High security systems... they are still the same incursions.
What I have explained and countless others is that there are 3 ways they have been nerfed and they should only have had one set of changes... either mixing up so pure bred fleets like all machs or all legions would work any better than a mixture of BS and T3's... extend the sites in time so blitzing doesn't work. Or reduce payment so the elite fleets wouldn't have as high an incentive to do VG's all day, that maybe they will do Assaults or HQ's instead if they are more profitable.
But they have done all three of these changes and nerfed incursions into the ground.
I was in a fleet tonight doing Assault sites and they have messed with the spawns in those, it took just short of half an hour to do our first Nation Consolidation Network which previously took 20 minutes... we managed to grind the time down to about 25 after getting some luck with the spawns.
I'm not disputing that incursions needed to be altered to deter isk farmers... it's just that an awful lot of regular incurions runners aren't wanting to do them now because they are made harder for less pay.
I mean would you be happy if someone made the C5 sites harder, longer and decreased the pay out on them? |
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
277
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Posted - 2012.04.26 22:15:00 -
[212] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote: Incursions are incursions. Null, Low or High security systems... they are still the same incursions.
High Sec Incursions do not have to deal with potential player threats like those in Null and Low, so no they're not the same. Likewise your question regarding C5s, there's substantial risk in operating in Wormholes, there's barely any in High Sec Incursions. But yes there was no need to nerf Null and Low Sec Incursions. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 22:37:00 -
[213] - Quote
Xorv wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: Incursions are incursions. Null, Low or High security systems... they are still the same incursions.
High Sec Incursions do not have to deal with potential player threats like those in Null and Low, so no they're not the same. Likewise your question regarding C5s, there's substantial risk in operating in Wormholes, there's barely any in High Sec Incursions. But yes there was no need to nerf Null and Low Sec Incursions. Dunno how many low/null incursions you've done, but people don't typically mess with them. The sov space ones are obviously claimed by whoever holds the area. NPC null ones are just ignored mostly, largely because of the difficulty getting there in the first place. Lowsec ones are often claimed by alliances for some reason, but people don't generally venture through them very much because the HQ systems have sansha camps capable of wiping out your average ~10 person BC gang.
They really aren't bad if you can get your fleet out there in the first place.
And if you do encounter a marauding gang, they still have to be good enough to overcome a high dps/tank logi-supported mostly-battleship fleet. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
28
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Posted - 2012.04.26 22:37:00 -
[214] - Quote
Xorv wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: Incursions are incursions. Null, Low or High security systems... they are still the same incursions.
High Sec Incursions do not have to deal with potential player threats like those in Null and Low, so no they're not the same. Likewise your question regarding C5s, there's substantial risk in operating in Wormholes, there's barely any in High Sec Incursions. But yes there was no need to nerf Null and Low Sec Incursions.
Suicide ganking logi's and logi griefing are not risks... Oh thank the stars I never realised how easy we had it.
Fact is in the null and low sec incursions you are set up primarily for PVP and any threat you face you form up a fleet to fight. With your countless scouts that cover all the systems leading into the incursion areas.
Us in hi-sec need to form pug fleets now and again... and even in our established and trusted community some people can turn around and grief people just for the lols or to make a quick bit of pocket change.
So I'd say yes we do take risks... because we're not all part of the same alliance... Also I've done low-sec incursions a couple of times. I know they are a lot more secure than people make out... if they weren't so profitable why are they doing them is the obvious point to make.
As for the C5's i already essplained in another post... They have their system in lockdown before they start farming, camps on every wormhole leading in with bubbles up and most likely the hole sitting on critical. So the chances of them actually being attacked by a force that could do damage to them is highly unlikely. Also to the fact of if someone wanted to attack them they'd have to go through several other wormholes before finding a connection to the C5. Several holes deep. So the chances of a random roaming fleet finding you that far into the rabbit hole it's almost non existent risk.
If someone wants to grief a high-sec incursion fleet, they only have to open up their journal and set destination to the nearest one. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
655
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 22:43:00 -
[215] - Quote
Slightly Degotoga wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships. Exactly this. Literally all that had to be done was to lower concord arrival times to that of a .5 in all high sec incursions and presto, no more blinged out nightmare or whatever fleets. Now anyone who runs incursions is just an idiot because they could be making more isk running ridiculously broken l4s missions. Nicely done CCP.
As one of the hottest L4 nerf supporters on this subforum (feel free to eve search), I can say that now L4s are almost OK.
Incursions imo were nerfed wrong.
They were meant to be a social aggregation content.
Of course they got monopolized not by the intended players but by super-extra pimp mega farming elites.
The nerfs should have nerfed them, not the average Joes. What will happen now is that the super extra pimps due to their maxed ships and skills will still be able to farm incursions (at reduced income) but the average players will stop.
This is exactly the opposite of how it should have done: to nerf the pimps while still letting the averages (proportionally taking more time and risks) get > L4 income.
Furthermore, a blanket "all secs" nerf is terrible, those doing incursions outside of hi sec should have not been nerfed. They both cannot use super-pimp plus they have to deal with PvP.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Myz Toyou
Bite Me inc Exhale.
51
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Posted - 2012.04.26 22:43:00 -
[216] - Quote
Just stealing a quote from a different thread:
"Despite the numerous claims that Incursions were all about the social aspect and fleeting up and having fun, nobody wants to run them now that they don't pay as well and people might actually lose ships." |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 22:55:00 -
[217] - Quote
Myz Toyou wrote:Just stealing a quote from a different thread:
"Despite the numerous claims that Incursions were all about the social aspect and fleeting up and having fun, nobody wants to run them now that they don't pay as well and people might actually lose ships." How can you loose ships now that they are easier, though much longer, than they were before? |
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
17
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Posted - 2012.04.26 23:32:00 -
[218] - Quote
lose* |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
11
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Posted - 2012.04.26 23:33:00 -
[219] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Myz Toyou wrote:Just stealing a quote from a different thread:
"Despite the numerous claims that Incursions were all about the social aspect and fleeting up and having fun, nobody wants to run them now that they don't pay as well and people might actually lose ships." How can you loose ships now that they are easier, though much longer, than they were before?
The Incursion nerf made the sites harder, not easier. Not sure where you're getting your information from.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
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Posted - 2012.04.26 23:37:00 -
[220] - Quote
Templar Nato wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Myz Toyou wrote:Just stealing a quote from a different thread:
"Despite the numerous claims that Incursions were all about the social aspect and fleeting up and having fun, nobody wants to run them now that they don't pay as well and people might actually lose ships." How can you loose ships now that they are easier, though much longer, than they were before? The Incursion nerf made the sites harder, not easier. Not sure where you're getting your information from. Apparently not the same source your info is coming from. I've been hearing that they are just longer from a VG perspective. Don't know anyone who runs assaults, but to that point I suppose I am at folly for using hearsay instead of going out and finding the results directly. |
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Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 23:39:00 -
[221] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Xorv wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: Incursions are incursions. Null, Low or High security systems... they are still the same incursions.
High Sec Incursions do not have to deal with potential player threats like those in Null and Low, so no they're not the same. Likewise your question regarding C5s, there's substantial risk in operating in Wormholes, there's barely any in High Sec Incursions. But yes there was no need to nerf Null and Low Sec Incursions. Suicide ganking logi's and logi griefing are not risks... Oh thank the stars I never realised how easy we had it. Fact is in the null and low sec incursions you are set up primarily for PVP and any threat you face you form up a fleet to fight. With your countless scouts that cover all the systems leading into the incursion areas. Us in hi-sec need to form pug fleets now and again... and even in our established and trusted community some people can turn around and grief people just for the lols or to make a quick bit of pocket change. So I'd say yes we do take risks... because we're not all part of the same alliance... Also I've done low-sec incursions a couple of times. I know they are a lot more secure than people make out... if they weren't so profitable why are they doing them is the obvious point to make. As for the C5's i already essplained in another post... They have their system in lockdown before they start farming, camps on every wormhole leading in with bubbles up and most likely the hole sitting on critical. So the chances of them actually being attacked by a force that could do damage to them is highly unlikely. Also to the fact of if someone wanted to attack them they'd have to go through several other wormholes before finding a connection to the C5. Several holes deep. So the chances of a random roaming fleet finding you that far into the rabbit hole it's almost non existent risk. If someone wants to grief a high-sec incursion fleet, they only have to open up their journal and set destination to the nearest one.
all you need is random connection open into you. not only wh corp like to kill farming caps, even NC kill them too.
stop being clueless, would you?? |
Gonzo TheGreat
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
12
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Posted - 2012.04.27 00:35:00 -
[222] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:As for the C5's i already essplained in another post... They have their system in lockdown before they start farming, camps on every wormhole leading in with bubbles up and most likely the hole sitting on critical. So the chances of them actually being attacked by a force that could do damage to them is highly unlikely. Also to the fact of if someone wanted to attack them they'd have to go through several other wormholes before finding a connection to the C5. Several holes deep. So the chances of a random roaming fleet finding you that far into the rabbit hole it's almost non existent risk..
You can get incoming wormholes from other people opening their statics or wormholes.
Over the top of my head , I can name like 10 corps that roll only C5s in their prime time to find fleets running sites and fights.
Here is how it works, For example you have a C5 static connection, this means that at anytime there will be a wormhole signature in your system that will point to another C5 via a H296 connection.
Now, what people do is,
1. you assemble your pvp fleet.
2. you scan the static wormhole connection. or crash the one you already have by putting enough mass through it. A C5-C5 (H296) is a 3 billion kg mass hole so it will collapse if 3 billion mass is put through it. The crashing can be done with a Dread and one orca jumping in an out (or other combinations),
3. Then you have a new connection, you scan it down,
4. PvP fleet warps to the new connection, scout jumps in and checks for wrecks/ships on D-Scan.
5. If there is a site running fleet, they have like 1 minute before you scan them down in a site (less if in an anomaly), your whole fleet jumps and goes for the kill.
6. If you don't get a good hole, scout jumps back and you crash it.
7. GOTO 2
This process take like 5-10 minutes per rolling.
Now add it to the fact that caps (dreads/carriers) won't be able to move in siege/triage (and they can't cancel the cycle immediately) and sleepers point randomly. |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 07:07:00 -
[223] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Apparently not the same source your info is coming from. I've been hearing that they are just longer from a VG perspective. Don't know anyone who runs assaults, but to that point I suppose I am at folly for using hearsay instead of going out and finding the results directly.
My information is from first hand experience. Whilst there is obviously still a formula to run sites successfully, the incoming DPS in some of them has been increased significantly and is more lumpy, therefore making the sites harder. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
28
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Posted - 2012.04.27 07:43:00 -
[224] - Quote
Myz Toyou wrote:Just stealing a quote from a different thread:
"Despite the numerous claims that Incursions were all about the social aspect and fleeting up and having fun, nobody wants to run them now that they don't pay as well and people might actually lose ships."
for about the dozenth time... Yes they are more social and enjoyable than missions... which is why I still choose to do them, I was running assaults last night.
The fact is, there is a great group of people coming together and working as a group to meet a goal, that goal should be rewarded since we are all working and taking risks together.
The money is not everything, but it's a part of it. It's the part that brings new people in. And we need new people in.
Before mission runners would think
"why am I doing these on my own when I could be doing incursions with other people and make a bit more money"
Now there is no initial incentive for the lvl 4 mission runner to come out and join us. Even if they had a pay degrading system. Where your pay was reduced slightly over the number of sites you'd completed that day. So your pay would start at 10.5 mill, then after 10 sites it would drop to 9.7 mill and after 30 sites 8.5 mill and then it would stay at 8,5 mill till next downtime.
This would discourage blitz fleets and cash grinders without taking away from the casual incursion runner. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
45
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 07:50:00 -
[225] - Quote
Templar Nato wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Apparently not the same source your info is coming from. I've been hearing that they are just longer from a VG perspective. Don't know anyone who runs assaults, but to that point I suppose I am at folly for using hearsay instead of going out and finding the results directly. My information is from first hand experience. Whilst there is obviously still a formula to run sites successfully, the incoming DPS in some of them has been increased significantly and is more lumpy, therefore making the sites harder.
But is this really a big deal? As long as the encounters are overall still easy. Twice close to zero risk from npcs is still close to zero risk. And it is not like the site actually got twice as hard, they just got harder compared to mind numbing easy. Which is important for the risk vs reward equation, but not so much for the feel of the sites. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 07:56:00 -
[226] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:
all you need is random connection open into you. not only wh corp like to kill farming caps, even NC kill them too.
stop being clueless, would you??
As you said "random connection"
People actually have to work to find you in the first place... and my point was it's a lot more work for someone to find a C5 fleet farming than it is for griefers to find the nearest hi-sec incursion... to which you've not given any argument
Gonzo TheGreat wrote:
You can get incoming wormholes from other people opening their statics or wormholes.
yes, and what's the probability on that... I remembered watching a Clarion call video where they did the math on finding a specific C6 system. Now if I remember right the math worked out at something like a 0.9% chance of finding the specific C6, now since there are more C5's than C6's I'd assume that number is a lot lower.
So the probability of someone finding your C5 is a lot lower than finding a hi-sec incursion fleet to grief isn't it? and the multi billion ships in the hi-sec incursion are just as expensive as your C5 fleet if not more in some cases. Especially if you were to hit a mach/nightmare fleet in the second wave of an OTA, use a couple of T1 caldari frigs (think the Heron gets the bonus to ECM) to suicide jam out their logi for a couple of cycles. And bam, you'll have a few juicy losses. to loot and steal from.
Like I said before... if the C5's are not worth doing because you're constantly being attacked. why are you doing them???
It makes no sense unless there is profit.
But still, if they made the Sleeper sites as hard as incursion NPC's and doubled the length of completion in some cases and reduced the amount of isk you were likely to make doing them, would you be happy to just sit back and make a lot less than you used to? |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 08:58:00 -
[227] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:[quote=Templar Nato]
But is this really a big deal? As long as the encounters are overall still easy. Twice close to zero risk from npcs is still close to zero risk. And it is not like the site actually got twice as hard, they just got harder compared to mind numbing easy. Which is important for the risk vs reward equation, but not so much for the feel of the sites.
Actually, I was hanging out with a fleet yesterday while they were running I was just sitting in wait list, and heard them lose an Oneiros in an NCO... Apparently he got webbed to hell and then the new harder hitting DPS popped him quicker than the logi's reps could cycle.
So yeah, the new sites are much harder.
It's not just the Vangaurds though... it is all the different types of sites that are harder. So the Assaults and HQ's are more difficult and take a lot longer to complete. I wouldn't have minded if they had made HQ's more profitable than the others, that would be our equivalent to 8/10 - 10/10 or C5's and C6's (where of course the Vanguards are entry level) The problem is there is no isk/hour increase as you go up the different size sites. So there is no incentive to do the bigger sites... and this is why people have just farmed Vanguards, because they had no reason to do bigger riskier sites for less isk.
If they made the bigger sites pay out more per hour then more people would want to form up Assaults and HQ's |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 09:00:00 -
[228] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:But is this really a big deal? As long as the encounters are overall still easy. Twice close to zero risk from npcs is still close to zero risk. And it is not like the site actually got twice as hard, they just got harder compared to mind numbing easy. Which is important for the risk vs reward equation, but not so much for the feel of the sites.
The difference is significant enough that I was watching tanked T3s explode before reps hit (with a booster running in sys). I wouldn't say the sites are twice as hard, just incoming DPS is a lot more lumpy. I actually think it's a good thing since it keeps logi pilots awake and makes the sites a challenge, however dropping effective rewards to less than mission bounty+ payout is harsh. It's hard to keep a community together when there is greater reward and far less risk running a L4 mission where it's rare that you're even pointed and can manage aggro by sequencing the triggers.
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Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 09:05:00 -
[229] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote: The problem is there is no isk/hour increase as you go up the different size sites. So there is no incentive to do the bigger sites... and this is why people have just farmed Vanguards, because they had no reason to do bigger riskier sites for less isk.
If they made the bigger sites pay out more per hour then more people would want to form up Assaults and HQ's
I would have really liked to see the Assaults buffed as stated in some of the information released before the patch and perhaps the HQs as well. They're obviously a more challenging site to run, not just from the standpoint of the fleet required to run the site, but the logistics required to keep a fleet that size together and running as people come and go. It would make sense to me that those increased efforts would translate to more ISK/ hr for everyone involved just as the rewards are greater in more dangerous wormholes, to cite the examples listed previously in this thread.
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xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 09:14:00 -
[230] - Quote
Templar Nato wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: The problem is there is no isk/hour increase as you go up the different size sites. So there is no incentive to do the bigger sites... and this is why people have just farmed Vanguards, because they had no reason to do bigger riskier sites for less isk.
If they made the bigger sites pay out more per hour then more people would want to form up Assaults and HQ's I would have really liked to see the Assaults buffed as stated in some of the information released before the patch and perhaps the HQs as well. They're obviously a more challenging site to run, not just from the standpoint of the fleet required to run the site, but the logistics required to keep a fleet that size together and running as people come and go. It would make sense to me that those increased efforts would translate to more ISK/ hr for everyone involved just as the rewards are greater in more dangerous wormholes, to cite the examples listed previously in this thread.
Well that's my point... why would a corp move into a C5 if a C2 was just as profitable as the C5 with a lot less risk to losing ships.
CCP seem to have forgotten this when planning our the incursion price scaling. Last night we had a couple of close calls in the Assaults, but one thing we did confirm is that T1 BC's can activate the Cruiser gate on the NCN sites. So harby's are now an option for fleets. And the Shield fleets can take drakes... cos we all know how much they love drakes.
Although I have to say, the cruiser side of NCN's is a lot quicker than before, we were sniper heavy and the cruiser side (my side) were clearing up with only 4 T3's and 1 Myrmidon a lot faster than the BS side... At least it means you can have more BS in your fleets for higher DPS in the other sites.
(so a standard fleet isn't completely gimped if all there are left are NCN's) |
|
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 09:49:00 -
[231] - Quote
THIS THREAD IS SPIRALING OUT OF CONTROL!!!
I love how after a topic reaches 2 pages it just contains no useful conversation at all xD Oh and obligatory pony:
http://mylittlefacewhen.com/f/2948/ |
Herr Ronin
ISN - Management ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 11:17:00 -
[232] - Quote
rareden wrote:Courtesy of The Skunkworks,
Our work here is done
So are you guys still bollocks at high sec warfare, Still dropping out of corps running away from carebears?
Oh no! That's rite, You gank retards, Yes, You are very successful.
Good Job! |
Hans Momaki
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 11:18:00 -
[233] - Quote
Well, it's just another fail from CCP.
Instead of fixing Incursions at once, they just nerfed VG's. There needs to be an incentive to upgrade to Assault/HQ's, and this is still missing. It's just not worth to have the hassle (and the increased risk compared to Lv 4's) of an Assault/HQ - side, if you can make nearly same ISK/hour in Lv 4's.
Many incursion runners mentioned on various occasions that there needs to be a better incentive to upgrade, but all what CCP did was listening to scrubheads. Good job. No fix at all, just some pissed players and probably some accounts less. \o/
/facepalm
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Herr Ronin
ISN - Management ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 11:24:00 -
[234] - Quote
DJ N00B wrote:The truth here is that some fleets could make 160 mil/hr but that is only during peak optimal conditions. We're talking shiny blitz fleet catered to do OTA's, running nothing but OTA's in that hour. having no competition, not having to wait for sites to spawn, and not having to swap anyone out in fleet. How often does that happen? Rarely. Now that is for shield fleets. Legion fleets could make that and more doing NCO's, but again we are talking optimal conditions here.
The reality is that most decently run fleets were making about half that. Pug fleets were making even less. Then when you factor in taking breaks, keeping fleet comp together, site competition, waiting for site spawns, etc etc. All those things drop the isk/hr substantially and it only gets worse during peak times or when there are fewer incursions availble. Then you add in the fact that more and more people were running incursions and this again was already reducing the isk/hr due to more frequent over crowding. So again the reality here is that most incursion runners were only making on average 60-100 mil isk/hour. That is really nothing go all QQing about. There are many other places you can make that kind of isk and more.
I think most people agree that the blitzing fleets making 160/mil an hour needed to stop. Granted again that is only during peak optimal conditions but still, that isk/hour potential is far greater than many other isk earning opportunities in the game. However CCP has gone WAY to far with this nerf.
First off lets talk potential isk/hour. As it stands today, If you were to optimize your fleet to run only NCO's you can do them in about 5min. So in total peak optimal conditions you might be able to make 120 mil isk/hour. The problem with that is your fleet is going to be totally screwed in other sites where nmc's might take you 10min and OTA's will take you much longer than that. So that isk/hour number is rarely going to happen. So even with optimal conditions (shiny fleet, no competition, no breaks/waiting) your maximum isk potential is about 70mil isk/hour. The reality is that you will have breaks etc, so you fleets will only be making about 50-60 mil isk/hour. Now those numbers are for nice shiny/experienced fleets. Pug fleets are going to make half that. The end result here is where are talking about a earnings potential reduction upwards of 50%. Sure, many who run incursions love the community aspect and this is a big part of it. However the fact is that we all need to make isk and these drastic cuts in earning potential is forcing people to make the decision to go elsewhere.
So what has this done.....
- Many of the incursion groups/channels have gone quiet. Experienced incursion runners, as well as a number of fc's, have seen their isk/hour drop so dramatically that they have decided to go do other things in eve because they can make more isk/hour.
- Those who are still interested in running incursions are spending hours trying to find fleets and this includes those with nice shiny ships.
- Those fleets that are running have got wait lists so long that most people end up dropping off before they even get into a fleet, and those people will likely end up just giving up on incursions all together becuase it just takes too long to get in to a fleet.
- PUG fleets are non existant. Again, the isk/hour has dropped so low for these groups that they just can't be bothered with them anymore. Plus, with the added focus fire of npc's, as well as time it takes to remove dps off the field, vanguards have become much more risky for these groups and the risk/reward is far too great for them to be worth doing.
- Without PUG fleets, new pilots/incursion runners no longer have an avenue to get into running incursions. The end result is that the talent pool for pilots will VERY quickly dry up.
The end result of all of this is that CCP has effectively destroyed incursions and the incursion community. You will have a scattering of shiny fleets that might still run vg's as well as some that might move to assaults. For many though, the risk vs reward just isn't worth it to make the move. You'll have the usual suspects that currently run as/hq's that will continue to do so. But, eventually the talent pool will dry up and even those with large and experienced communities will start finding it hard to maintain their fleets with the resulting impact on isk/hour causing many to just give up on incursions all together.
CCP, you stated that incursions were one of the best things to come to eve and that community aspect was something you wanted to maintain. Then you turn around and destroy it. GREAT JOB CCP!
Yes cause ISN never used to earn more than 100 million a hour before the Nerf, Noooo not a all.
Maybe the problem was the community you where in, We had no problems finding people to replace and our waiting list was allways full.
You have stated some good points, In a few months BTL will go dead, Pug fleets are earning 30 million a hour, Which is just not worth it, In this sense BTL and other communitys like it that don't have a strong member base that could possibly "Blitz" will die, Due to the Nerf the better the ship fitting and skills with the T2 guns will make such a huge difference.
Currently we are doing Assaults and making 80 million a hour, Which in my opinion still doesn't cut it, CCP have really messed around with the Incursion communitys, You never know, They might Fix what they have done.
Who knows.. |
Nemo deBlanc
Phoibe Enterprises
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 11:52:00 -
[235] - Quote
Herr Ronin wrote:
Currently we are doing Assaults and making 80 million a hour, Which in my opinion still doesn't cut it, CCP have really messed around with the Incursion communitys, You never know, They might Fix what they have done.
What you fail to realize is that your opinion really only matters to you, and a few other select entitled carebears. It's the overwhelming opinion of nearly every serious player that incursions were broken. They utterly invalidated any reasons to go to null isk-wise, made low sec seem like even more of a joke, etc etc. 80 mil/hr in highsec is plenty. You probably also aren't factoring in your LP either. (I presume) What do missions make if you don't count LP? 30 mil/hr? 40?
Stop being an entitled fu-¡ck only caring about yourself, and actually consider the overall health of the game. This nerf had to happen. Just like Tech needs to be rebalanced. Just like lowsec needs income buffs. Just like local needs nerfing. Just like the dronelands needed nerfing. Just like Titans needed nerfing. Just like SC's needed nerfing. Just like loot from 4's got nerfed. Just like nano needed nerfing. The list goes on and on.
You're bit-¡ching and moaning like you're the first guy that ever got nerfed. The reason there's so many people laughing at you is because most of them understand that overall game balance is more important than some mega-bears overinflated isk stream.
TL;DR: Cry more, nobody sensible cares. |
Herr Ronin
ISN - Management ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 12:05:00 -
[236] - Quote
Nemo deBlanc wrote:Herr Ronin wrote:
Currently we are doing Assaults and making 80 million a hour, Which in my opinion still doesn't cut it, CCP have really messed around with the Incursion communitys, You never know, They might Fix what they have done.
What you fail to realize is that your opinion really only matters to you, and a few other select entitled carebears. It's the overwhelming opinion of nearly every serious player that incursions were broken. They utterly invalidated any reasons to go to null isk-wise, made low sec seem like even more of a joke, etc etc. 80 mil/hr in highsec is plenty. You probably also aren't factoring in your LP either. (I presume) What do missions make if you don't count LP? 30 mil/hr? 40? Stop being an entitled fu-¡ck only caring about yourself, and actually consider the overall health of the game. This nerf had to happen. Just like Tech needs to be rebalanced. Just like lowsec needs income buffs. Just like local needs nerfing. Just like the dronelands needed nerfing. Just like Titans needed nerfing. Just like SC's needed nerfing. Just like loot from 4's got nerfed. Just like nano needed nerfing. The list goes on and on. You're bit-¡ching and moaning like you're the first guy that ever got nerfed. The reason there's so many people laughing at you is because most of them understand that overall game balance is more important than some mega-bears overinflated isk stream. TL;DR: Cry more, nobody sensible cares.
"What you fail to realize is that your opinion really only matters to you."
That is a bit Ironic? Who says i am "Crying" I think you need to take your madness to another topic, Internet spaceships is serious business after all. |
Myz Toyou
Bite Me inc Exhale.
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 12:46:00 -
[237] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Apolyon I wrote:
all you need is random connection open into you. not only wh corp like to kill farming caps, even NC kill them too.
stop being clueless, would you??
As you said "random connection" People actually have to work to find you in the first place... and my point was it's a lot more work for someone to find a C5 fleet farming than it is for griefers to find the nearest hi-sec incursion... to which you've not given any argument Gonzo TheGreat wrote:
You can get incoming wormholes from other people opening their statics or wormholes.
yes, and what's the probability on that... I remembered watching a Clarion call video where they did the math on finding a specific C6 system. Now if I remember right the math worked out at something like a 0.9% chance of finding the specific C6, now since there are more C5's than C6's I'd assume that number is a lot lower. So the probability of someone finding your C5 is a lot lower than finding a hi-sec incursion fleet to grief isn't it? and the multi billion ships in the hi-sec incursion are just as expensive as your C5 fleet if not more in some cases. Especially if you were to hit a mach/nightmare fleet in the second wave of an OTA, use a couple of T1 caldari frigs (think the Heron gets the bonus to ECM) to suicide jam out their logi for a couple of cycles. And bam, you'll have a few juicy losses. to loot and steal from. Like I said before... if the C5's are not worth doing because you're constantly being attacked. why are you doing them??? It makes no sense unless there is profit. But still, if they made the Sleeper sites as hard as incursion NPC's and doubled the length of completion in some cases and reduced the amount of isk you were likely to make doing them, would you be happy to just sit back and make a lot less than you used to?
So, when WHing is so risk free why dont you and your Incursion whine buddies grow a pair and move there ? |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 13:01:00 -
[238] - Quote
Myz Toyou wrote:
So, when WHing is so risk free why dont you and your Incursion whine buddies grow a pair and move there ?
Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers. I have even attacked people inside C3 and C4 sites... So I know it is possible to hunt people down inside the wormholes, I also know just how difficult it is to do it effectively.
I came back to the incursion community because I got word of these changes coming a while back. Started getting back into the flow just before the patch so I would have a more objective point of view when it came to the changes.
The incursion change doesn't effect me all that much because I am at least set up to do Sleeper sites or missions to replace the isk drop from incursions. My comments are on the effect I feel it will have on the community as a whole. |
Myz Toyou
Bite Me inc Exhale.
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 13:09:00 -
[239] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Myz Toyou wrote:
So, when WHing is so risk free why dont you and your Incursion whine buddies grow a pair and move there ?
Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers.
Thats good to hear but sadly 90% of the Incursion runners ( special the ones who were new to EVE when Incursions hit the server ) are now after the last month of safety and wealth so blinded that they probably never gonna venture into space were no CONCORD saves their sore butts.
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Nemo deBlanc
Phoibe Enterprises
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 13:15:00 -
[240] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote: Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers. I have even attacked people inside C3 and C4 sites... So I know it is possible to hunt people down inside the wormholes, I also know just how difficult it is to do it effectively.
I'm genuinely curious. What's so difficult about ganking people in C3/C4's? All you really need is heavy cloakie tackle, usually neuts, and sometimes a guy that actually knows how to probe. I feel incredibly vulnerable when running sites, because I know that without alts watching all the wh's, there's a very real chance somebody is going to get in there without me knowing and cloak up. At which point I'm already dead. Killed enough people now that I've seen firsthand just how easy it is. |
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xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 13:26:00 -
[241] - Quote
Nemo deBlanc wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers. I have even attacked people inside C3 and C4 sites... So I know it is possible to hunt people down inside the wormholes, I also know just how difficult it is to do it effectively.
I'm genuinely curious. What's so difficult about ganking people in C3/C4's? All you really need is heavy cloakie tackle, usually neuts, and sometimes a guy that actually knows how to probe. I feel incredibly vulnerable when running sites, because I know that without alts watching all the wh's, there's a very real chance somebody is going to get in there without me knowing and cloak up. At which point I'm already dead. Killed enough people now that I've seen firsthand just how easy it is.
Well C4's tend to have a small group... most common I've seen are tengu's doing remote logi.
The last kill we got was 2 Domi's that were equipped for remote log and neuts, If I was solo I'd have probably not have managed it. But we had enough neuts and DPS to take them down.
I was actually in an Interdictor... got both pods
|
Nemo deBlanc
Phoibe Enterprises
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 14:03:00 -
[242] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Nemo deBlanc wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers. I have even attacked people inside C3 and C4 sites... So I know it is possible to hunt people down inside the wormholes, I also know just how difficult it is to do it effectively.
I'm genuinely curious. What's so difficult about ganking people in C3/C4's? All you really need is heavy cloakie tackle, usually neuts, and sometimes a guy that actually knows how to probe. I feel incredibly vulnerable when running sites, because I know that without alts watching all the wh's, there's a very real chance somebody is going to get in there without me knowing and cloak up. At which point I'm already dead. Killed enough people now that I've seen firsthand just how easy it is. Well C4's tend to have a small group... most common I've seen are tengu's doing remote logi. The last kill we got was 2 Domi's that were equipped for remote log and neuts, If I was solo I'd have probably not have managed it. But we had enough neuts and DPS to take them down. I was actually in an Interdictor... got both pods
ECM is pretty win in scenarios like the 2 domi's, then just some cane's for neut+dps, or drakes I suppose if it's neut domi's you're brawling. RR Tengu I consider neuts to be best, since dissolution gives them really high sensor strength, making ECM less substantial. Canes absolutely wreck these fits, dual medium neuts=ouch. Depending how many Tengu's, you might want a logi or two. RR Tengu's basically never have a prop mod, so they're pretty much sitting ducks.
Those are the cheap approaches anyways. T3's blobs are popular if you've got the isk, cloakie proteus highly recommended for initial tackle.
There could be better approaches, but that's what I've seen to work best. PvE ships really do die easily. Even if they're a billion isk.
Here's the C3 Tengu fit I consider best for example:
[Tengu, 6 Launcher Large Rep] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
<30k ehp, no prop mod, not even cap stable. You catch these things, they're going to die horribly. It's just about making enough isk that you can shrug off the loss. As a random side note, while this Tengu is what I consider the "optimal fit" for C3's, most people run somewhat more tanked fits. The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices. |
Caldari Citizen 786478786
112
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 14:17:00 -
[243] - Quote
Nemo deBlanc wrote:The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices.
Bwahahaha! Dumbass. There's no better sleeper killing ship. Though, what does this have to do with Incursions? Can we get back onto the topic of Incursion bears whining? Their tears are ridiculous AND delicious. |
Nemo deBlanc
Phoibe Enterprises
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 14:18:00 -
[244] - Quote
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:Nemo deBlanc wrote:The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices. Bwahahaha! Dumbass.
Right back 'atcha.
But yes, this was a thread about incursion bear tears. Probably best we stop derailing it. |
Zelota
hbc inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 15:15:00 -
[245] - Quote
Nemo deBlanc wrote:Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:Nemo deBlanc wrote:The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices. Bwahahaha! Dumbass. Right back 'atcha. But yes, this was a thread about incursion bear tears. Probably best we stop derailing it.
incurtion bear's? I run incurtions. Am i a bear? What is it you do in this game? If you are not some ones alt. Then what the hell is up with your chest beating? To me you have 90 life time kills.... What is it you do in eve? |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 17:18:00 -
[246] - Quote
Zelota wrote:Nemo deBlanc wrote:Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:Nemo deBlanc wrote:The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices. Bwahahaha! Dumbass. Right back 'atcha. But yes, this was a thread about incursion bear tears. Probably best we stop derailing it. incurtion bear's? I run incurtions. Am i a bear? What is it you do in this game? If you are not some ones alt. Then what the hell is up with your chest beating? To me you have 90 life time kills.... What is it you do in eve? did you buy this toon???
kill nothing for 2 years, I'm pretty sure you're bears |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 18:27:00 -
[247] - Quote
What is it with the "bears" branding...
If you're not a hi-sec bear, you're a null-sec bear or a faction warbear, a wormhole-bear or some other form of bear, unless you are a constant PVP'er... in which most of them have alts that do their carebearing for them.
This isn't a bear off, This thread is supposed to be looking at the changes made by CCP and trying to see if they are the correct changes needed.
Personally I'd like to see the same "Escalations" (see what I did there CCP, I even commented on your up coming expansion) That we see with every other aspect of eve,
Someone mines in hi-sec they can get certain roids... better roids in low-sec but more risk and effort to get them, they get even better in WH's and Null but that's even riskier... but the pay off is there for those willing to take the risk.
Missions, level 1's are easy but provide no real income for a player, so they upgrade to 2, 3 and then 4... some even go to lvl 5 and do the faction missions for a bigger reward. At a bigger risk.
Then we have wormholes, the C1 are easiest to do but don't pay the same as C4's C5's or C6's People upgrade to the bigger sites for better payout at more risk.
I could go on and on, about DED and exploration sites. But you get what I mean.
Why is it incursions are the only set up in eve, where one of the lowest entry level activities is the highest income?
The bigger sites pay more, but only barely and it takes so much longer to complete.
I wouldn't mind the Vanguard sites only being able to make 60-70 mill an hour, as long as Assaults were capable of making 120-140 mill an hour and Headquarter sites able to make 240-250mill an hour. Because the sites are much bigger, with much more things to do, more effort, more people needed, more organization, more danger... more risk... but no more reward than doing Vanguards...
CCP, can you see why Everyone wants to do Vanguards instead of Assaults and Headquarters... I know the last few days you've possibly seen more people doing these sites than any other time. But mostly this is because people are still experimenting to see which will be best for them. At the end of the day once everyone has gotten past the nerf and all they will all go back to VG's because that is the default setting for most of them. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 18:39:00 -
[248] - Quote
first reasonable post, I ran VG before while looking for a wh corp.
60-70m/hr seem a reasonable payout for HS VG but for AS and HQ, haven't ran them so I dont know much
I guess it would take much more effort but remember, it's still HS. the payout you propose for AS and HQ will once again make incursion the safest/best isk-wise pve activity and make all other form of pve obsolete even C5,C6. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:00:00 -
[249] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:first reasonable post, I ran VG before while looking for a wh corp. 60-70m/hr seem a reasonable payout for HS VG but for AS and HQ, haven't ran them so I dont know much I guess it would take much more effort but remember, it's still HS. the payout you propose for AS and HQ will once again make incursion the safest/best isk-wise pve activity and make all other form of pve obsolete even C5,C6.
Well ASS take about 20-30 mins and 20 people depending on site, and HQ take 50-60 mins and 40 people depending on the site.
|
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:16:00 -
[250] - Quote
We're not talking about numbers here, we're talking about pvp risk.
It could even take 100 people to kill a sansha titan, they'd still be against a scripted entity and safe from other players.
That's why HS incursions should not pay more than WHs or Null sec stuff.
|
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Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:36:00 -
[251] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:60-70m/hr seem a reasonable payout for HS VG
I finally agree with you.
My issue has been that HS VG has been nerfed far more than this. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:44:00 -
[252] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:We're not talking about numbers here, we're talking about pvp risk.
It could even take 100 people to kill a sansha titan, they'd still be against a scripted entity and safe from other players.
That's why HS incursions should not pay more than WHs or Null sec stuff.
They are not exactly predictable... they have random spawns, they neut, scram, web, target paint, do insane amounts of DPS, they have logi's... Not to mention... you are still at PVP risk... for anyone can come into the pocket you're in... and suicide jam out the logi's with a couple of Blackbirds with cheap fits. Your fleet not having logistic support will lose ships fast. they have alts loot your wrecks and run off.
We have blacklists with hundreds of names and incidents just like explained... and more inventive ganks on incursion community members where people have been PVP'd in incursions and lost billions of isk.
so please, don't say there's "no pvp risk" it's getting old. Some corps and alliances have made a fortune off of ganking incursion runners. Including Skunkworks and Moar tears... |
Zelota
hbc inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:57:00 -
[253] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Zelota wrote:Nemo deBlanc wrote:Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:Nemo deBlanc wrote:The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices. Bwahahaha! Dumbass. Right back 'atcha. But yes, this was a thread about incursion bear tears. Probably best we stop derailing it. incurtion bear's? I run incurtions. Am i a bear? What is it you do in this game? If you are not some ones alt. Then what the hell is up with your chest beating? To me you have 90 life time kills.... What is it you do in eve? did you buy this toon??? kill nothing for 2 years, I'm pretty sure you're bears
No i quit the game for almost 2 years cause i lost all faith in it. Incurtions came around and i started playing again. If you do not think that i am the orginal one. Here are is a link to my videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_YF4Yzuvoc this is from the time when eve had dive bombing ravens. Something i bet you do not know any thing about |
Zita Devon
Z.Devon Trade Industry.
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:02:00 -
[254] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Just Alter wrote:We're not talking about numbers here, we're talking about pvp risk.
It could even take 100 people to kill a sansha titan, they'd still be against a scripted entity and safe from other players.
That's why HS incursions should not pay more than WHs or Null sec stuff.
They are not exactly predictable... they have random spawns, they neut, scram, web, target paint, do insane amounts of DPS, they have logi's... Not to mention... you are still at PVP risk... for anyone can come into the pocket you're in... and suicide jam out the logi's with a couple of Blackbirds with cheap fits. Your fleet not having logistic support will lose ships fast. they have alts loot your wrecks and run off. We have blacklists with hundreds of names and incidents just like explained... and more inventive ganks on incursion community members where people have been PVP'd in incursions and lost billions of isk. so please, don't say there's "no pvp risk" it's getting old. Some corps and alliances have made a fortune off of ganking incursion runners. Including Skunkworks and Moar tears.
I think ppl sould remember that the only reson incurtion's have been able to fly "risk" free like you say, is due to the reson of the hard work from TDF and BTL both armor and shield comunities.... creating list of ppl who dosn't like to fly this missions and would rather greff your fleet and kill your logi's.
EVERY single day this BLACK list grow... more and more ppl are getting blocked out of the knowen comunities. becure we protect us self from this " un needed " losses. |
Jazest
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:13:00 -
[255] - Quote
CCP, you did a great job in balancing the incursions. The payouts are in line with assaults and hq payouts, the blitz fleets are no more (for the moment, tho I am sure they will be back in a week or two) and on top of it all, you present us with a new challenge to overcome. Great job once again! Keep up the good work! |
Zelota
hbc inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:15:00 -
[256] - Quote
Jazest wrote:CCP, you did a great job in balancing the incursions. The payouts are in line with assaults and hq payouts, the blitz fleets are no more (for the moment, tho I am sure they will be back in a week or two) and on top of it all, you present us with a new challenge to overcome. Great job once again! Keep up the good work!
what about all the people that could not afford a shiny ship?
|
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:53:00 -
[257] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:first reasonable post, I ran VG before while looking for a wh corp. 60-70m/hr seem a reasonable payout for HS VG but for AS and HQ, haven't ran them so I dont know much I guess it would take much more effort but remember, it's still HS. the payout you propose for AS and HQ will once again make incursion the safest/best isk-wise pve activity and make all other form of pve obsolete even C5,C6.
Apolyon I > I make 1b in 1h Apolyon I > 350m in 5' Gudda > how do you do that? Apolyon I > I dont see it's boring Gudda > gas mining? Apolyon I > that's the difference between you and me Gudda > so you make 1 billion in an hour Gudda > and you are mad at somone making 1 billion in a day Gudda > ? Apolyon I > yep, I'm that *******
nerf wormholes? |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 21:09:00 -
[258] - Quote
Gudda wrote:Apolyon I wrote:first reasonable post, I ran VG before while looking for a wh corp. 60-70m/hr seem a reasonable payout for HS VG but for AS and HQ, haven't ran them so I dont know much I guess it would take much more effort but remember, it's still HS. the payout you propose for AS and HQ will once again make incursion the safest/best isk-wise pve activity and make all other form of pve obsolete even C5,C6. Apolyon I > I make 1b in 1h Apolyon I > 350m in 5' Gudda > how do you do that? Apolyon I > I dont see it's boring Gudda > gas mining? Apolyon I > that's the difference between you and me Gudda > so you make 1 billion in an hour Gudda > and you are mad at somone making 1 billion in a day Gudda > ? Apolyon I > yep, I'm that ******* nerf wormholes?
don't you know resource in wh are limited not non-stop farming like incursion??
ignorance is bliss |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
61
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 23:46:00 -
[259] - Quote
Really?
Never heard of static chain collapsing?
Not comparing whs to incursions but as far as limitedness goes both are theoretically unlimited given some circumstances. |
TheButcherPete
Specter Syndicate CORE Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 00:53:00 -
[260] - Quote
Aww, that's cute. You abuse the fact that Incursions are easy isk, then you ***** that CCP nerfs the Vanguard. Man up and move to 0.0 where you can make 60m/hr, every day My moncole doubles as a cigarette lighter, a flashlight, a laser and x-ray goggles. If you haven't noticed yet, I'm in love with Punkturis. -á-á-á
|
|
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 03:24:00 -
[261] - Quote
It's not just the fact that they nerfed vanguards that's the problem. They nerfed HQs as well (apparently by accident?) and didn't increase really "fix" assaults, which was one of the main goals to begin with... |
Hrontore BOA
Four Gun Deadly Unknown
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 03:58:00 -
[262] - Quote
I find the changes made to incursions to be counter productive. I no longer find it to be either enjoyable or profitable to do now that the changes made have greatly reduced the VG population.
The reduction to the VG population and the change to the influence bar has made head quarter sites to be more dangerous and time consuming without increasing payout.
We are unable to break the influence without vanguards, and now that it's this dangerous HQ fleets are even more difficult to form and keep up. Actually impossible.
I flew one site today, heavy with logi's, it was slow, tedious, and not at all the experience I'd like to bring other people into. The influence bar needs to be reworked.
VG's still need balancing.
HeadQuarters still need a isk buff.
|
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 04:57:00 -
[263] - Quote
Hrontore BOA wrote:I find the changes made to incursions to be counter productive. I no longer find it to be either enjoyable or profitable to do now that the changes made have greatly reduced the VG population.
The reduction to the VG population and the change to the influence bar has made head quarter sites to be more dangerous and time consuming without increasing payout.
We are unable to break the influence without vanguards, and now that it's this dangerous HQ fleets are even more difficult to form and keep up. Actually impossible.
I flew one site today, heavy with logi's, it was slow, tedious, and not at all the experience I'd like to bring other people into. The influence bar needs to be reworked.
VG's still need balancing.
HeadQuarters still need a isk buff.
tl;dr Incursions are hard, I don't want them to be hard, I just want them to print isk for me.
Please fix ccp. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 05:32:00 -
[264] - Quote
Liliana Rahl wrote:Hrontore BOA wrote:I find the changes made to incursions to be counter productive. I no longer find it to be either enjoyable or profitable to do now that the changes made have greatly reduced the VG population.
The reduction to the VG population and the change to the influence bar has made head quarter sites to be more dangerous and time consuming without increasing payout.
We are unable to break the influence without vanguards, and now that it's this dangerous HQ fleets are even more difficult to form and keep up. Actually impossible.
I flew one site today, heavy with logi's, it was slow, tedious, and not at all the experience I'd like to bring other people into. The influence bar needs to be reworked.
VG's still need balancing.
HeadQuarters still need a isk buff.
tl;dr Incursions are hard, I don't want them to be hard, I just want them to print isk for me. Please fix ccp. Not at all. Nobody minds them being hard, to an extent. It's just that as he said, HQs are even harder to keep together now, and they now have the lowest payout and the most difficulty, both in actually running the sites and in keeping the fleet together. I don't know if you've ever run a TCRC before, but it's the most difficult pve experience in eve, bar none. When preloaded, cruiser hulls can pop before the logis can even get a lock on them. That level of difficulty for, as of now, less pay than L4s.....not very appealing to many. |
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC Vanguard.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 10:05:00 -
[265] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:really, I think blitz fleets will still be possible for the Vanguard sites. They may never be as profitable again.
But it may just mean that they are more exact in what they have in fleet.
Our group (mixed BS and cruisers) were alone in a VG system. And then an ISD player came along in a polaris frigate. Saying he was a reporter and thought it interesting that our group was the first one he'd seen doing OTA sites in the whole constellation.
"only one's brave enough" - his exact words.
I just finished running OTA sites...well rather 2 OTA sites in 2 hours. We immediately bounced to the NCOs as soon as they spawned is a faction battleship heavy fleet mind you. The new OTAs are totally broken. The recent Caldari incursion site had empty vanguard systems once it was only OTAs left. I thought wow lets get a fleet and clean these babies out. The change(nerf) can't have made them that bad. I was wrong. Now you have to kill everything and hack a can that jumps around over 100km between waves. It was impossible to kill the mara paleo without a hacker to disrupt the sansha reppers. 7 faction battleships and a tengu couldn't get the mara below 50% shields unless we hacked. The hack can is a long ways out and jumps around. I totally understand the OTA blitz fleets were getting through too quickly 120 mil isk in an hour is a bit much for almost no risk, but 20 mil an hour for a bit more risk now just isn't worth my time.
Vanguard sites will be decent until its all OTAs and then everyone will leave and go back to running L4s like I will until the next good pvp roam starts up that is. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 10:57:00 -
[266] - Quote
For what must be the millionth time... I don't have an issue with nerfing Vanguards... I'm one of the people that made most of them while they were amazing to farm.
I just feel incursions are the only aspect in eve where more effort doesn't = bigger reward.
I could farm lvl 2's till the cows come home and not make 100 mill in a whole day. or I could farm lvl 4's with a bit more work and make about 10X that of doing lvl 2's
The same kind of escalation needs to be part of incursions. VG's at 60-70 mill/hour ASS's 120-140 mill/hour and HQ's 240-280 mill/hour makes perfect sense to me.
(HQ's take a long as time to form up for. if you actually took form up time into effect, it's about 1 hour of form up minimum before you activate a gate) |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 12:18:00 -
[267] - Quote
I think 200+ per hour is a bit excessive....but 100-ish for HQs sounds perfectly reasonable for the amount of effort involved, especially considering that 100 with a consistent fleet could easily turn into 50 or less when logistical problems arise. |
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard Argon Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 13:13:00 -
[268] - Quote
Well incursions is nerfed.
Now carebears you can convo me about 0.0 rent, trollface.jpg |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 13:43:00 -
[269] - Quote
0.0 rent my ass, npc null is where the fun is at.
I don't know why you people assume we're all carebears...you have to fund things somehow. |
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard Argon Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 14:02:00 -
[270] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:0.0 rent my ass, npc null is where the fun is at.
I don't know why you people assume we're all carebears...you have to fund things somehow. We'd found a fun way of doing so, and it got nerfed to near-uselessness instead of being balanced out properly. You'd be upset too. In these npc nullsec do not rent.
We dont want fun, we looking for slaves and renters-pets. hahaha |
|
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
66
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 14:27:00 -
[271] - Quote
Vizvig wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:0.0 rent my ass, npc null is where the fun is at.
I don't know why you people assume we're all carebears...you have to fund things somehow. We'd found a fun way of doing so, and it got nerfed to near-uselessness instead of being balanced out properly. You'd be upset too. In these npc nullsec do not rent. We dont want fun, we looking for slaves and renters-pets. hahaha
I understand you, i too had fun once.
It was awful.
Btw incursions were nerfed too much!
Now i will not be able to do them |
Frooth
Unleet Industries LLC Lunar Industries Partnership
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 16:07:00 -
[272] - Quote
! |
Frooth
Unleet Industries LLC Lunar Industries Partnership
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 16:08:00 -
[273] - Quote
Frooth wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: The same kind of escalation needs to be part of incursions. VG's at 60-70 mill/hour ASS's 120-140 mill/hour and HQ's 240-280 mill/hour makes perfect sense to me.
(HQ's take a long as time to form up for. if you actually took form up time into effect, it's about 1 hour of form up minimum before you activate a gate)
you my friend are fcking brain dead. |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 16:10:00 -
[274] - Quote
This thread is still alive? Thought you would have gotten tired of all your self-congratulatory boolshite by now... |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 17:02:00 -
[275] - Quote
Frooth wrote:Frooth wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: The same kind of escalation needs to be part of incursions. VG's at 60-70 mill/hour ASS's 120-140 mill/hour and HQ's 240-280 mill/hour makes perfect sense to me.
(HQ's take a long as time to form up for. if you actually took form up time into effect, it's about 1 hour of form up minimum before you activate a gate)
you my friend are fcking brain dead.
What a mature comment, would you like to leave some substance with your abuse?
If not, move along. |
Gudda
Icelandic Sheeps
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 17:15:00 -
[276] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxe_SLk5D1s <---- made the video. So this means that vanguards are shiny fleet only from now on ? 5 minutes... they used to be 4 one sec more is not going to stop me from doing them |
Rico Ramos
STARMINE inc Solaris Mortis
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 21:56:00 -
[277] - Quote
Since the nerf, I'm on the remove Incursions bandwagon now!
And while your at it nerf WH and hisec too please.
Get rid of security status and make all of eve just like nulsec. With player corp empires that can wage war with NPC empires!
WH isk to ease ratio out of wack. NPC's in WH need to be harder! Internet Space Ships is Serious Business |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
214
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 21:56:00 -
[278] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Frooth wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: The same kind of escalation needs to be part of incursions. VG's at 60-70 mill/hour ASS's 120-140 mill/hour and HQ's 240-280 mill/hour makes perfect sense to me.
(HQ's take a long as time to form up for. if you actually took form up time into effect, it's about 1 hour of form up minimum before you activate a gate)
you my friend are fcking brain dead. What a mature comment, would you like to leave some substance with your abuse? If not, move along.
cry about it nerd.
your post provides about the same substance his does |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
214
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 21:57:00 -
[279] - Quote
Rico Ramos wrote:Since the nerf, I'm on the remove Incursions bandwagon now! And while your at it nerf WH and hisec too please. Get rid of security status and make all of eve just like nulsec. With player corp empires that can wage war with NPC empires! WH isk to ease ratio out of wack. NPC's in WH need to be harder!
needs more emoticons |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 23:25:00 -
[280] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:Frooth wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: The same kind of escalation needs to be part of incursions. VG's at 60-70 mill/hour ASS's 120-140 mill/hour and HQ's 240-280 mill/hour makes perfect sense to me.
(HQ's take a long as time to form up for. if you actually took form up time into effect, it's about 1 hour of form up minimum before you activate a gate)
you my friend are fcking brain dead. What a mature comment, would you like to leave some substance with your abuse? If not, move along. cry about it nerd. your post provides about the same substance his does
My original post was one of substance, one that stated an opinion. I was replied to with an insult... so I returned the compliment.
Then some stranger jumps on for fun..
These forums are just filled with trolls, just like you.
Back onto topic:
The blitz fleets can actually still complete OTA sites in about 5 minutes... meaning they can still make 120 mill per hour easily.
I do think the Vanguard sites need a different kind of nerf... Either that or just buff Assaults like they should have done, this may bring more people into the bigger sites instead of joining all mach/NM fleets to do OTA's as quick as possible, |
|
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
103
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 23:31:00 -
[281] - Quote
I don't entirely understand what all the complaining is about. The Vanguard sites are only slightly less profitable and not that much more difficult to blitz for a good fleet. They now merely require a more attentive FC and competent logistics. A Drake fleet with no webbers and crap composition can no longer make 60 mil an hour, but there's absolutely no reason why they should have been able to do so in the first place. A fleet with decent composition can make good ISK quite easily. Considering that running anomalies in null with a carrier usually doesn't yield more than 60mil ISK, I'd say the Vanguard sites are now quite nicely balanced.
It does take effort to put together a fleet now, but that's mainly due to lack of pilots at this point. |
Rezaa
Mercenary Cooperative Conglomerate
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 23:52:00 -
[282] - Quote
Short responce.......................Yes they went TOOO far (as usal) Its the same old crap from CCP, introduce something then nerf it in to oblivion.............
CCP, why cant to get anything right??????? Been playing of and on sice 04, EVERY single time i come back i keep thinking "yeah they changed" "their doing stuff right now"--------------Not |
AveryFaneActual
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 00:04:00 -
[283] - Quote
derp |
Jericho Hinken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 00:30:00 -
[284] - Quote
I am a newer Incursion pilot, just now getting out of my trusty Raven, so I cant really atest to the people who are making hundreds of millions of isk per hour but I can attest to the newer pilots and the average players, the Incursions were buffed WAY TOO MUCH. I attempted a Vanguard last night with some fellow TVP pilots and it took 25 shiney battleships, the same fleet we used for Assaults, 40 minutes to finish the site. I think that CCP took some of the buffs a little too far, I am not against the overall buff of Incursion NPC's it is just too far, all it is gonna do is turn newer pilots off to Incursions because now it is almost required to be sitting in a multi-billion isk battleship in order to complete the simplest of sites.
-Jericho Hinken |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 00:31:00 -
[285] - Quote
Rico Ramos wrote:Since the nerf, I'm on the remove Incursions bandwagon now! And while your at it nerf WH and hisec too please. Get rid of security status and make all of eve just like nulsec. With player corp empires that can wage war with NPC empires! WH isk to ease ratio out of wack. NPC's in WH need to be harder! jelly??? go to wh or stfu |
Caesar Desilva
Furyan Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 00:40:00 -
[286] - Quote
Dear CCP Devs,
The Incursion community of late has been losing activity. Before the recent patch DPS, Sniper and logi pilots patiently waited in queues to join fleets varying from Vanguards to MoM sites however the latest patch has reduced activity. After months of understanding incursions, perfecting them and running them effectively, it is sad to see the communities that the players have built to run incursions has come under pressure. Keeping in mind that a certain degree of nerf was required for vanguard sites, these new changes have been overdone.
Vanguard sites are slow and time consuming hence rendering them unplayable for most players.
What we would have liked to see instead : A decrease in payout by about 10% would have been sufficient to bring it a notch down.
The previous system of completing these VG sites could be kept intact whilst implementing a decrease in pay out. Consequently, those players who ran VG sites on regular bases now do not wish to run incursions. Our community is running dry.
I hope that my agrument has been constructive. I speak on behalf of many players, we would like to see the revival of VG's.
Sincerely Caesar
|
Asia Lottatang
Lemmy's BloodWolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 00:53:00 -
[287] - Quote
I would have to agree that vg have been hurt far to much. Over the last week I have seen the incursion community in both high sec and low/null shrink drastically. Hqs and assaults seem to be active still but it is unlikely the any mothership site will be run as the rate at which the incursion profile changes has dropped terribly. I think this is because fewer vanguard sites are being run . The 10% decrease in payout may have been enough to bring vanguards in line with the other incursion levels. The increase in time spent per site and the hacking can moving around and hacking be a requirement instead of a help has most likely caused this. High level skill point characters with faction battleships or t3 ships and faction fittings have these problems so I would guess that players with lower skill points and wallet have absolutely no chance of taking part in incursions any more. The possibility of having 4-7 jamming npcs on the field in assaults has most likely hurt incursions as well. |
Caldari Citizen 786478786
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 01:02:00 -
[288] - Quote
Caesar Desilva wrote:What we would have liked to see instead : A decrease in payout by about 10% would have been sufficient to bring it a notch down.
You're wrong. A 10% nerf to the 150+ mil ISK/hr that some were making would not have been sufficient. A 50% nerf most certainly was and is sufficient and, considering that many Incursioners are already reporting 60-75mil ISK/hr since the nerf, it's clear CCP may not have gone far enough in reducing the ISK payouts.
|
Toda Takauji
Posthuman Society Enclave.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 02:01:00 -
[289] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships. Lol, you are wrong if you think this change will bring about juicy targets to shoot. It certainly won't. |
Toda Takauji
Posthuman Society Enclave.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 02:06:00 -
[290] - Quote
Gudda wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxe_SLk5D1s <---- made the video. So this means that vanguards are shiny fleet only from now on ? 5 minutes... they used to be 4 one sec more is not going to stop me from doing them Horrible music. |
|
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
85
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 05:27:00 -
[291] - Quote
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:Caesar Desilva wrote:What we would have liked to see instead : A decrease in payout by about 10% would have been sufficient to bring it a notch down. You're wrong. A 10% nerf to the 150+ mil ISK/hr that some were making would not have been sufficient. A 50% nerf most certainly was and is sufficient and, considering that many Incursioners are already reporting 60-75mil ISK/hr since the nerf, it's clear CCP may not have gone far enough in reducing the ISK payouts. You make it sound like the average fleet was making 150m/hr before the nerf....it just isn't true. Factoring in downtime and suboptimal site selection, a steady 150m/hr all day would be nearly impossible, and that's for a fleet full of pirate battleships. Your average PUG was probably topping out at 80 or so...more like 40 now.
That said, I do agree with vanguards being on the lowest tier as far as payout. (unless you count scouts ) Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if youit strapped a beehive to Robocop.-Kale Eledar |
Nemahs Aideron
Three Tribbles and a Fire Extinguisher
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 05:47:00 -
[292] - Quote
I love the EVE community
"Yay Incursions nerf! Take that carebears!"
"Hey Shut up Nullbears w/ your ISK-printing moons!"
"Well we have risk!"
Cant we all just play the damn game? |
plexlon
Simplicitus
0
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Posted - 2012.04.29 06:18:00 -
[293] - Quote
Nemahs Aideron wrote:I love the EVE community "Yay Incursions nerf! Take that carebears!" "Hey Shut up Nullbears w/ your ISK-printing moons!" "Well we have risk!" Cant we all just play the damn game?
But that's really the problem, isn't it? It gets less enjoyable to play a game with drastic, random, and arbitrary, changes. |
Caldari Citizen 786478786
125
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Posted - 2012.04.29 06:29:00 -
[294] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:Your average PUG was probably topping out at 80 or so...more like 40 now.
80mil ISK/hr for a PUG was at least double what it should have been, which makes your 40mil ISK/hr now about right where it should be. OTOH, considering that number is still ahead of what the average L4 highsec mission runner makes and nearly double what highsec miners are making it might still be too high. |
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
0
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Posted - 2012.04.29 06:50:00 -
[295] - Quote
It's been a good long while since I've felt the need to voice my opinion on the forums (not like it will actually get heard).
I work in the game industry as a designer so I KNOW that CCP designers must have thought about this nerf from the myriad of angles that it had to be systematically approached from. But I still cannot make sense of it. What the **** were you thinking?
After 8 years of playing this game, Incursions were the thing that made me resub again. Being able to jump into a group activity with strangers on short notice and for a reward that was actually worth the waiting and risk? That's a brilliant game mechanic. That's the kind of stuff that makes or breaks MMOs! It filled the gap between soloing level 4's in empire and plotting to take over the universe. One takes no commitment, the other takes a second job.
So here we are again back with the butterfly effect. You talked about how changes to criminal mechanics had a massive butterfly effect that you are only now reckoning with. Why have you so blatantly ignored it now? Did you fail to consider that nerfing incursions to lvl 4 income would cause so much of the thriving community to just say "**** it" and leave? Now those of us remaining are waiting twice, three times as long for a fleet. Start doing to isk/h math for that! How long until the last few of us leave? It's pretty clear that those of us sticking around are more interested in doing something group-oriented without job-like commitments. But there are only so many nights in a row that you can log on spamming channels for invites before you give up and head off to null sec.
So, let's be clear here:
Level 4's: No risk, solo, no waiting.
Incursions: Controlled but knife-edge risk, always group, always waiting.
There is no imaginable way that Incursions should be comparable to lvl 4's in terms of isk/h. Just no way. Period. I respect your work. I really, truly do. I know how hard it is to make a game. But you need to pay attention to the delicate group dynamics at play in incursions. Make them worthwhile again for the community or I fear come May 15th, a lot of us wont be logging on again. |
Niko Takahashi
United Starbase Systems
37
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Posted - 2012.04.29 07:36:00 -
[296] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Were I of an incursion-running mind, I'd invest the time and energy into figuring out the best way to capitalize on this sudden drop in interest in incursions. There's probably a lot of profit to be had for an innovative group.
The reaction seen here is exactly why The Skunkworks took such glee in griefing incursions. When CCP yanked the rug out from under us (over and over and over again) we adapted and made the best of it. We found new ways to commit acts of piracy in high sec. Here we are, barely a day into this, and the entire "community" is throwing its hands up and saying "well, that's that, incursions are dead!" I'm not normally one to look down on others, but frankly this defeatism is appalling.
For those of you who will get out there and figure out ways to restore your income level, I beg of you: don't share it with those who won't put in the effort themselves. Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity.
Amen but you are not going to explain that to the bit slower types. Looking to get into incursions now. |
Gabriel Luminati
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.04.29 07:51:00 -
[297] - Quote
THANK YOU CCP!
So i get an email saying "Come back, we've made changes!" Blah blah blah. And i think, sure! You, know, ive missed Eve and could always do with making my fortunes and helping people out etc.
So when i resub (with a PLEX thats sky high right now!) i then find that my community and the thing i like to do most, now pretty much no longer exists!
I used to be an FC within BTL Community and remember hundreds and hundreds of players in BTL all advertising fleets etc and quite a few FCs and community organisers in channels. But now, its a handful of people desperate to try and make little more ISK than solo-ing lvl 4s with barely anyone at the helm it feels.
So yes, Thank you CCP for destroying perhaps the biggest communities in Eve and ruining the EVE Raids (For you WoW trolls). I sincerely hope 1-2 of these new changes are reverted, and soon too.
Jita is already on fire, dont make us Incursion Runners do the same to Amarr too.... |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
45
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:07:00 -
[298] - Quote
Gabriel Luminati wrote: Jita is already on fire, dont make us Incursion Runners do the same to Amarr too....
Sounds like a plan. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
85
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Posted - 2012.04.29 08:57:00 -
[299] - Quote
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:Your average PUG was probably topping out at 80 or so...more like 40 now. 80mil ISK/hr for a PUG was at least double what it should have been, which makes your 40mil ISK/hr now about right where it should be. OTOH, considering that number is still ahead of what the average L4 highsec mission runner makes and nearly double what highsec miners are making it might still be too high. You missed the bit where I said "topping out"...they didn't all make that, and the ones that did couldn't do it consistently.
L4's make 30-50m/h if you have half a brain, and require an order of magnitude less effort....just how low do incursions need to be pushed? Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if youit strapped a beehive to Robocop.-Kale Eledar |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
229
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Posted - 2012.04.29 11:36:00 -
[300] - Quote
We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes. CCP Affinity | Team Five 0 |-á @CCP_Affinity |
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Annunaki soldier
Celestial Argonauts HELL4S
0
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Posted - 2012.04.29 11:44:00 -
[301] - Quote
why people dont get it that incursions and their money involved really were adding more to pvp , also to industrialist . The money from there where spent to buying pvp ships to break all the time , that you buy t2 things , that people produce those. Now with limiting the money involved we all lose. PvPer's that had the incursion for their supply of ships will just buy less ships , cheaper ships also. That also include less money to people that produce that.
As for mining instead of limiting the other money why not fix the mining money involved and raise their profit in order to actually be profitable being a miner ( i am always talking about high sec things )
Those that say people will go low sec now they are mistaken. People that didnt go low sec , will stay high sec even if they nerf things to the bottom. If you deny their option to substain their accounts and limit the fun THEY want for them then they will just leave for another game.
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javer
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.04.29 11:44:00 -
[302] - Quote
well that is a response we can live with, thing is we can allready tell you that vanguards is overnerfed when a fleet needs to field 5x3bill+3x1.5bill+2x0.5bill ships to make 1/3 of before then ..... Quit making changes on a whim, and document what the hell you do. changes that aint in patch notes is called bugs for most companies, but for ccp then it means a gm will have to say sorry its a new feature suck it up and have fun.... |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
229
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Posted - 2012.04.29 11:51:00 -
[303] - Quote
We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats CCP Affinity | Team Five 0 |-á @CCP_Affinity |
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Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
139
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Posted - 2012.04.29 12:19:00 -
[304] - Quote
Quote:Incursions
Vanguard and Assault Sites have been revamped with the following changes: NPCs have been grouped into waves and groups have been randomized; this will prevent blitzing and increase the random element within the sites. Spawn triggers moved from individual NPCs to the group as a whole. Lowered the rewards from Vanguard sites by 10%. For more information see this blog. On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 14:28:00 -
[305] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes. Calling it now: CCP will re-assign, lay-off or otherwise divert resources so this change is never revisited. That is unless EVE's perennial cancers, CCP Greyscale or Soundwave, decide to make some arbitrary changes.
284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
19
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Posted - 2012.04.29 14:28:00 -
[306] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats
incursion is fine, don't waste your time |
Gath'ran Gammigan
Collaborative Arts Incorporated
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 15:27:00 -
[307] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats
I'm sorry but I find this a little unbelieveable. Had you truly been in touch with players after the proposed changes hit Sisi, you would have seen an overwhelming concern growing in the Incursion community.
A proper assessment on the average completion time for sites was not done. Take the OTA as an example. Blitz fleets were completing the site in 2-3 minutes (because of target prioritization) while public fleets were taking 5-7 minutes per site. With the introduced nerf multiplying the required killed ships by several factors, that time has increased to a 7 minute blitz and 10-12 minutes for a casual fleet.
Keeping these things in mind, with the reduced payouts and the longer completion times, it's no wonder that players are switching to L4 missions. Why would I bother spending 3-4 Billion ISK to maximize the performance of my ship when I can get the same if not slightly better income with a T2 fit mission running battleship?
The change additionally comes at an inopportunate time with the massive changes to the EVE market under way. The cost of ships and modules are rising, and quite frankly, it means the cost of PVP and other such activities is rising too. Where previously many of us could run a few hours of incursions a week to pay for all of our ships, we will now need to dedicate a sizable portion of our gametime to generating ISK to keep up with the ailing market.
The direct effect will most probably see people unsubbing the excess accounts they don't need and can no longer afford to keep PLEXed up, and a further shift away from combat activities to return to the old grinds. Except this time it's with a bitter taste in the mouth because you gave the player base something better - then took it away.
You say you'll be monitoring the changes over the next few months. I say in the next few months, it will already be too late. |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
214
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 15:34:00 -
[308] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Bettik and I will continue to monitor the copious amounts of crying on the forums
ftfy
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XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
214
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 15:37:00 -
[309] - Quote
Gabriel Luminati wrote: Jita is already on fire, dont make us Incursion Runners do the same to Amarr too....
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 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xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
35
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Posted - 2012.04.29 17:04:00 -
[310] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats incursion is fine, don't waste your time
Yeah, you can leave Incursions alone... But I suggest we start nerfing WH's now
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Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
170
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Posted - 2012.04.29 18:07:00 -
[311] - Quote
You want isk go to low or null else settle for what you can get. Risk vs Reward. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
36
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Posted - 2012.04.29 18:17:00 -
[312] - Quote
Katarina Reid wrote:You want isk go to low or null else settle for what you can get. Risk vs Reward.
Have you looked at the map recently?
Even before the "Burn Jita" campaign by goons, the majority of ship kills have happened in hi-sec for the longest time
The only ship losses in null are small scattered blotches, which are mostly fleet fights. The NPC'ers that are taking the "Risks" that you speak of are constantly aligned to their POS and the instance someone joins local that isn't blue or they get intel from their security channel that there are neutrals near by they warp off and sit in their bubble... I can see why these people should be able to make so much more isk/hour.
Also I said before... there has been almost 300 reported incidents of griefing activities happened against the incursion community since the forming of TDF and BTL. The actions are in most cases impossible to safeguard against... so please don't say that incursion runners don't take risks. Hi-sec is a lot more dangerous than Null-sec. |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
214
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Posted - 2012.04.29 19:04:00 -
[313] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Have you looked at the map recently?
Even before the "Burn Jita" campaign by goons, the majority of ship kills have happened in hi-sec for the longest time
This is more a result of people being terrible at this terrible game, than it is a result of "incursions are risky." |
plexlon
Simplicitus
0
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Posted - 2012.04.29 20:38:00 -
[314] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats
Hopefully that doesn't mean "We've decided to ignore this entirely. If subscriptions are not dramatically down by September we will assume you have adjusted and do other stuff now. We really have no intenion of either admitting a really dumb move or fixing it. Admissions are embarassing and fixes are work. kthnxbye."
On a related note I've heard that the changes on SiSi wer Not the same as the changes on Tranquility. If so saying the community was notified and "we monitored the test server" is a bit like a plumber turning on your ktichen sink, asking you if that looks good, then blowing up your toilet. Not a sevice I'd recommend. |
plexlon
Simplicitus
0
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Posted - 2012.04.29 20:50:00 -
[315] - Quote
I'm not sure risk/reward is a good sole metric. Effort / reward, cooperatiopn/ reward, etc are pretty well demonstrated economic and social principles. Simply doing risk/reward would suggest that virtual russian roulette would be the best game ever made. Maybe the risk/reward kneejerks (who actually often live in pretty safe territory due to a coopertave alliance) ought to reconsider, or at least stop yammering their catchprases repeatedly and do a little thinking for a change. This isn't to say incursions posed no risk, merely that risk can't possiblu be the sole means of evaluation. |
Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2012.04.29 21:26:00 -
[316] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats
The changes were different in tranquility than they were in Sisi. If you 'made changes again according to the feedback received from the incursion community' then you either misunderstood their feedback, or whoevers feedback you listened to wasn't the popular opinion. That, or you are flat out lying to us.
Feature notes stated you decreased the time for assaults. The exact opposite occurred. Assaults take even longer now.
I suggest you gather feedback in this forum and relook at incursions based on this feedback. This is the popular opinion, and an excellent resource for the direction of the game.
And if CCP ever nerfs something into oblivion again without taking the time and resources to fully test an understand the proposed changes because it is easier, I unfortunately will have completely lost my trust in the company to be capable of managing this game. Nerf now fix later only serves to infuriate the gaming population. It does not make us more accepting to change. |
Bozl1n
SiN Corp Daisho Syndicate
2
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Posted - 2012.04.29 21:36:00 -
[317] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Were I of an incursion-running mind, I'd invest the time and energy into figuring out the best way to capitalize on this sudden drop in interest in incursions. There's probably a lot of profit to be had for an innovative group.
The reaction seen here is exactly why The Skunkworks took such glee in griefing incursions. When CCP yanked the rug out from under us (over and over and over again) we adapted and made the best of it. We found new ways to commit acts of piracy in high sec. Here we are, barely a day into this, and the entire "community" is throwing its hands up and saying "well, that's that, incursions are dead!" I'm not normally one to look down on others, but frankly this defeatism is appalling.
For those of you who will get out there and figure out ways to restore your income level, I beg of you: don't share it with those who won't put in the effort themselves. Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity.
You might like to know that happened today, to a degree, after 3 days of honing slow AS sites.
We land on grid to see a fleet with 20 ships, as shinny as we were, with only 13 on grid. Our FC jumps with joy - contest.
Site ends - we get the blink. 7dps down. Win |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 21:48:00 -
[318] - Quote
plexlon wrote:I'm not sure risk/reward is a good sole metric. Effort / reward, cooperatiopn/ reward, etc are pretty well demonstrated economic and social principles
Uhhhh, wrong. Have you ever been in real life investing or new project development before? It is a rule that the riskier investments have to carry a higher interest rate in order to be attractive to potential investors. There are entire megacorporations that just evaluate how risky securities are. Effort/cooperation has absolutely nothing to do with reward in real life. In a lot of jobs you get paid a salary and in many cases hard working managers can work for 60 hrs/week and a good salesperson can work half that and make twice as much $$$. Have you ever even had a job before? This is finance and general business 101. |
CyberRaver
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 21:55:00 -
[319] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats
Either way you have overdone it, there was a great incurison community and not its gone
|
Kodavor
Mine3
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 21:55:00 -
[320] - Quote
Quote:Effort/cooperation has absolutely nothing to do with reward in real life
Back to school young man ! Back to school RIGHT NOW ! |
|
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
75
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 22:35:00 -
[321] - Quote
How far is too Far Enough?
|
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
36
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 00:20:00 -
[322] - Quote
CyberRaver wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats Either way you have overdone it, there was a great incursion community and now its gone Either revert the changes or you can add incursions to all the other great ideas you have had and lost due to kneejerk changes
Well, I'd say the problem that we face just now is. That shiny fleets may use PUG fleets to sub their income. By contesting more sites more aggressively, they may be able to make up some of the difference post patch.
The best option I'd say to make things more exciting, worth while and involve more people in the incursion community... would be increase the pay outs on Assaults by 25% and HQ's by 50%
(this would push more pilots into the bigger fleets, that are more fun to do, leaving vanguards to the super shiny blitzers and the more enjoyable stuff for the rest of us) |
plexlon
Simplicitus
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 00:41:00 -
[323] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:plexlon wrote:I'm not sure risk/reward is a good sole metric. Effort / reward, cooperatiopn/ reward, etc are pretty well demonstrated economic and social principles Uhhhh, wrong. Have you ever been in real life investing or new project development before? It is a rule that the riskier investments have to carry a higher interest rate in order to be attractive to potential investors. There are entire megacorporations that just evaluate how risky securities are. Effort/cooperation has absolutely nothing to do with reward in real life. In a lot of jobs you get paid a salary and in many cases hard working managers can work for 60 hrs/week and a good salesperson can work half that and make twice as much $$$. Have you ever even had a job before? This is finance and general business 101.
Actually it appears that most of the return on high risk investment comes from a pirvate profit/public risk model. See TARP program USA for details. I agree it is possible for a political system to be gamed or a game to be rigged to make what you say seem true, but in a less artificial environment it tends not to be all one way. Quite a few fortunes have been made by hard work over the last century or two..completely aside from ones made by imperialism or crooked tax policies and protectionism. I think your salesperson example, while extremely rare, actually contradicts your case. I did not say "time spent." I said "Hard work." If you don't know the difference...well you can cast employment aspersions at yourself in your leisure.
Finally, I see no reason why you felt a need to make this personal. Unless I hit a nerve and made you really mad by suggesting that hard work is valuable, or cooperation? In which case what does that say?
At any rate I was trying to talk about the incuriosn nerf being based on a too-narrow metric, without getting into the specifics of the nerf. From a purely gaming perspective we might look at the effects it had on other aspects of the game? What were they? I think a dev has been quoted as saying the economic impact wasn't huge. SO what..from a purely "keep people in the game, keep the game going," perspective, not a moral emotive outburst, was the issue? |
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 06:17:00 -
[324] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats
I'm sorry, but the community deserves more than a 2-paragraph excerpt on a blog about multiple topics! These changes didn't even get their own blog. How?
I quick look over at the Sisi changes thread is also very concerning. There was a complete failure to address community concerns on there. No proper explanations or rebukes were given to those offering valuable feedback: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=95113
Most of the feedback was negative. A few pilots agreed that VG's needed a nerf, but the majority pointed out that decreasing pay AND doubling the time of completion is more than a 10% nerf. Patch notes stated this:
Quote: Lowered the rewards from Vanguard sites by 10%.
No mention of doubling the time of completion.. anywhere, actually. The dev blog does not state that the changes to waves and triggers increases completion times. Should we discuss the effect of having to kill all the Maras orbiting at 60km with a close DPS fleet?
On to Assaults. This one hurts my head a bit. Escalation features site states:
Quote: while the time to complete an Assault invasions will be reduced some.
"will be reduced some" There is no data to support this. No evidence of internal testing. There is a hell of a lot of player data in the Sisi thread stating the exact opposite. Assaults were critical. You can nerf VGs to hell and back but if you made Assaults worthwhile, fleets would have shifted from elite VG groups to more public Assault fleets who attempt to keep a large group together by filling slots with pubbers. Instead, both got nerfed. Assaults are not worthwhile and the remaining VG fleets have become very, very, very exclusive. Does someone care to expand upon the iterations assaults went through in Sisi. Were they changed at all from April 04 to April 25th?
So here is what we want. All of your data and observations from testing. The reasoning behind the changes and why you think they were working during testing as intended. Comparisons of average isk/h incomes between incursions and lvl 4s and why you think the current system is acceptable. Put this together in a devblog devoted only to incursions and give us more than 2 paragraphs. Stay a few extra hours at work today to do this for your community. This change and its effects are your responsibility. We deserve a real discussion here. |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
138
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 06:54:00 -
[325] - Quote
CCP Logic: Make incursion sites more fun to run via random spawns ... Nerf the income so bad they become useless to run.
I mean ... what the **** guys ? Are you guys trolling or what ?
(On a sidenote I loooove the nullbears whining about their cashmachine 0.0 incursions being nerfed too and not just the highsec ones) |
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
281
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 07:00:00 -
[326] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.
Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well.
|
Kodavor
Mine3
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 07:12:00 -
[327] - Quote
Xorv wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes. Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well.
Do that and you will see ONLY Sansha in that constelation . |
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
281
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 07:28:00 -
[328] - Quote
Kodavor wrote:Xorv wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes. Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well. Do that and you will see ONLY Sansha in that constelation .
It's about time the Sansha won rather than be farmed like loot pinatas. However, if making Incursions into more EVE appropriate content is not possible the alternative is more nerfs to balance the risk free nature of High Sec Incursions with that of the rest of the game.
|
Keith Planck
The Great and Powerful Corporation
201
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 07:34:00 -
[329] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Kodavor wrote:Xorv wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes. Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well. Do that and you will see ONLY Sansha in that constelation . It's about time the Sansha won rather than be farmed like loot pinatas. However, if making Incursions into more EVE appropriate content is not possible the alternative is more nerfs to balance the risk free nature of High Sec Incursions with that of the rest of the game.
maybe incursions were the balanced thing and everything else in eve is just unbalanced :O |
Templar Nato
Clockwork Pineapple
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 08:37:00 -
[330] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.
Thank you. It's great to know someone is listening.
I'm sure the data will show that the changes gutted the Incursioning community and will warrant a second look at what was done.
|
|
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
68
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 10:39:00 -
[331] - Quote
Dev posts like this remember me of the last summer.
A complete disregard for honesty, willingness to admit mistakes and work towards reverting them.
They lied to the community(assaults) and they never listened to any kind of feedback or maybe they just ignored them.
This should upset even people who do not do incursions. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
167
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 11:03:00 -
[332] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.
A few god damed effing months? @#$!!!!! CCP DEVs have the deft touch of a leper in a silk store. The Incursion community will probaly die in a month with these changes http://i.imgur.com/aYOL1.jpg To the whiners : CCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
167
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 11:08:00 -
[333] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats I'm sorry, but the community deserves more than a 2-paragraph excerpt on a blog about multiple topics! These changes didn't even get their own blog. How? I quick look over at the Sisi changes thread is also very concerning. There was a complete failure to address community concerns on there. No proper explanations or rebukes were given to those offering valuable feedback: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=95113Most of the feedback was negative. A few pilots agreed that VG's needed a nerf, but the majority pointed out that decreasing pay AND doubling the time of completion is more than a 10% nerf. Patch notes stated this: Quote: Lowered the rewards from Vanguard sites by 10%. No mention of doubling the time of completion.. anywhere, actually. The dev blog does not state that the changes to waves and triggers increases completion times. Should we discuss the effect of having to kill all the Maras orbiting at 60km with a close DPS fleet? On to Assaults. This one hurts my head a bit. Escalation features site states: Quote: while the time to complete an Assault invasions will be reduced some. "will be reduced some" There is no data to support this. No evidence of internal testing. There is a hell of a lot of player data in the Sisi thread stating the exact opposite. Assaults were critical. You can nerf VGs to hell and back but if you made Assaults worthwhile, fleets would have shifted from elite VG groups to more public Assault fleets who attempt to keep a large group together by filling slots with pubbers. Instead, both got nerfed. Assaults are not worthwhile and the remaining VG fleets have become very, very, very exclusive. Does someone care to expand upon the iterations assaults went through in Sisi? Were they changed at all from April 04 to April 25th? So here is what we want. All of your data and observations from testing. The reasoning behind the changes and why you think they were working during testing as intended. Comparisons of average isk/h incomes between incursions and lvl 4s and why you think the current system is acceptable. Put this together in a devblog devoted only to incursions and give us more than 2 paragraphs. Stay a few extra hours at work today to do this for your community. This change and its effects are your responsibility. We deserve a real discussion here.
CCP DEVs lied & have thier heads up thier asses IMHO your test monkies just threw crap on the wall & look what sticking is just a smelly stain To the whiners : CCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" |
Gorenaire
Theosophical Society
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 12:58:00 -
[334] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Yeah, you can leave Incursions alone... But I suggest we start nerfing WH's now
You want WH money ? fine, setup a large POS with all the annoying logistics behind, and do the sites on your own.
You cant have the money and the risk free at the same time. You choose to do pve in high sec, which is fine, but dont envy people who have more balls than you do because they put very often expensive ships on the line each time they leave their POS or enter a wormhole.
Getting 100 mill / hour in high sec is wrong, getting that in wormhole is fine since you can ganked and podded any times. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
45
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 13:19:00 -
[335] - Quote
Gorenaire wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Yeah, you can leave Incursions alone... But I suggest we start nerfing WH's now
You want WH money ? fine, setup a large POS with all the annoying logistics behind, and do the sites on your own. You cant have the money and the risk free at the same time. You choose to do pve in high sec, which is fine, but dont envy people who have more balls than you do because they put very often expensive ships on the line each time they leave their POS or enter a wormhole. Getting 100 mill / hour in high sec is wrong, getting that in wormhole is fine since you can ganked and podded any times.
Essential you are begging to get ganked. And to get more targets, as you are inviting people to contest your system(s). Problem is, most of these incursion runners are either carebears and will not leave empire space ever, or they are null bears and just enjoyed the extra cash because their masters did not share the null sec isk with them. Either way, most will decline your invitations. And even the few that don-¦t, are mostly just returning back to wh space.
And as you know all this, its easy for you to make such invitations, just imagine if actually really several thousands new players come to wh space and what this would mean for WH income. |
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard Argon Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 14:34:00 -
[336] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Gorenaire wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Yeah, you can leave Incursions alone... But I suggest we start nerfing WH's now
You want WH money ? fine, setup a large POS with all the annoying logistics behind, and do the sites on your own. You cant have the money and the risk free at the same time. You choose to do pve in high sec, which is fine, but dont envy people who have more balls than you do because they put very often expensive ships on the line each time they leave their POS or enter a wormhole. Getting 100 mill / hour in high sec is wrong, getting that in wormhole is fine since you can ganked and podded any times. Essential you are begging to get ganked. And to get more targets, as you are inviting people to contest your system(s). Problem is, most of these incursion runners are either carebears and will not leave empire space ever, or they are null bears and just enjoyed the extra cash because their masters did not share the null sec isk with them. Either way, most will decline your invitations. And even the few that don-¦t, are mostly just returning back to wh space. And as you know all this, its easy for you to make such invitations, just imagine if actually really several thousands new players come to wh space and what this would mean for WH income. Most of people in WH is isk farmers or carebears. Most carebear in WH is one man (or 2) with large pos and 3-4 alts on dreadnought's.
Most of them pays game by PLEX. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 15:07:00 -
[337] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:Xorv wrote:Kodavor wrote:Xorv wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes. Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well. Do that and you will see ONLY Sansha in that constelation . It's about time the Sansha won rather than be farmed like loot pinatas. However, if making Incursions into more EVE appropriate content is not possible the alternative is more nerfs to balance the risk free nature of High Sec Incursions with that of the rest of the game. maybe incursions were the balanced thing and everything else in eve is just unbalanced :O leave HS, would you, please???
|
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 15:11:00 -
[338] - Quote
Vizvig wrote: Most of people in WH is isk farmers or carebears. Most carebear in WH is one man (or 2) with large pos and 3-4 alts on dreadnought's.
Most of them pays game by PLEX.
aren't incursion exactly the same???
anyway, if you say as if wh that easy, why are you still in kspace?? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 15:20:00 -
[339] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Were I of an incursion-running mind, I'd invest the time and energy into figuring out the best way to capitalize on this sudden drop in interest in incursions. There's probably a lot of profit to be had for an innovative group.
The reaction seen here is exactly why The Skunkworks took such glee in griefing incursions. When CCP yanked the rug out from under us (over and over and over again) we adapted and made the best of it. We found new ways to commit acts of piracy in high sec. Here we are, barely a day into this, and the entire "community" is throwing its hands up and saying "well, that's that, incursions are dead!" I'm not normally one to look down on others, but frankly this defeatism is appalling.
For those of you who will get out there and figure out ways to restore your income level, I beg of you: don't share it with those who won't put in the effort themselves. Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity.
Well said. But we are of course bumping up against human nature here. Some people's "morality" for lack of a better word revolves around "what works best for me".
So to them, it doesn't matter one lick if something is broken or out of place, as long as they like it. Most of us could see that being able to farm no-risk (well, no risk except the risk of someone coming in and suiciding your logi :) ) High sec content was against what eve is about.
It was exactly like that in null sec with the 1st Anom nerf (which for the record I wasn't thrilled with). Lots of people fled to either Incursions or lvl 4 missions because their "Sanctums" were gone. To bad they didn't know that Forsaken and Forlorn Hubs were (even before the 1st nerf) way better than sanctums. The moaned and moaned and moaned and CCP "buffed" anoms to the point where the already good Forsaken hubs were turn into 300 mil isk per hour Titan Farms. Of course they just not fixed that with the titan nerf, but it was crazy.
Something like that will probably happen here again. Rather than adapt to the changes and seek new opportunities (as one tends to do in a SANDBOX, the "incursion Community" will moan and moan and moan and CCP will reverse some of the changes to just stop the moaning lol.
Because some people prefer theme parks to sand boxes...... |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
116
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 15:46:00 -
[340] - Quote
Katarina Reid wrote:You want isk go to low or null else settle for what you can get. Risk vs Reward. Null-sec is not the risk-filled environment as perceived by some. And that's coming from a five-year null bitter vet. Yes, it takes great *effort* to carve out a chunk of null-sec territory, but the day-to-day risk of losing a ship is marginal.
Additionally, null-sec earnings on a per-character basis are no more than those living in high-sec considering some of the expenses associated with null. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
|
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:03:00 -
[341] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Katarina Reid wrote:You want isk go to low or null else settle for what you can get. Risk vs Reward. Null-sec is not the risk-filled environment as perceived by some. And that's coming from a five-year null bitter vet. Yes, it takes great *effort* to carve out a chunk of null-sec territory, but the day-to-day risk of losing a ship is marginal. Additionally, null-sec earnings on a per-character basis are no more than those living in high-sec considering some of the expenses associated with null.
5 years on and off in null sec and I never once lost a ratting ship to ganks. I've seen fellow incursion runners lose ships to the slightest mistake. Incursions give a false sense of security because the players have perfected their roles so well. We should not be punished for mastering a system, for equipping our fleets with lvl 5 logis and shiny BSes.
Incursions gave increased pay based on the amount of commitment the fleet was willing to put into it. That is a great system. The previous rewards gave you the confidence to fly a 3 billion isk ship despite those butt-clenching moments when a basi DCs during a heavy-dps wave.
Amazingly, Incursions made trust into a critical gameplay element. Nowhere else in eve would you trust a complete stranger with so much of your hard work. I cannot see why CCP felt this was something worth fiddling with. |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:22:00 -
[342] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Katarina Reid wrote:You want isk go to low or null else settle for what you can get. Risk vs Reward. Null-sec is not the risk-filled environment as perceived by some. And that's coming from a five-year null bitter vet. Yes, it takes great *effort* to carve out a chunk of null-sec territory, but the day-to-day risk of losing a ship is marginal. Additionally, null-sec earnings on a per-character basis are no more than those living in high-sec considering some of the expenses associated with null. 5 years on and off in null sec and I never once lost a ratting ship to ganks. I've seen fellow incursion runners lose ships to the slightest mistake. Incursions give a false sense of security because the players have perfected their roles so well. We should not be punished for mastering a system, for equipping our fleets with lvl 5 logis and shiny BSes. Incursions gave increased pay based on the amount of commitment the fleet was willing to put into it. That is a great system. The previous rewards gave you the confidence to fly a 3 billion isk ship despite those butt-clenching moments when a basi DCs during a heavy-dps wave. Amazingly, Incursions made trust into a critical gameplay element. Nowhere else in eve would you trust a complete stranger with so much of your hard work. I cannot see why CCP felt this was something worth fiddling with.
Beacause it was injecting too much isk in the economy and because the reward/risk ratio was out of whack compared to other activities.
However they dun goofd up. |
Kodavor
Mine3
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:27:00 -
[343] - Quote
Are you all f*****g gamblers ?
Money is made only in gambles ! Money is made only in gambles ! Is that the only thing that is in your head ?
RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !
GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE !
No risk = No reward . Effort = Bullshit ! . Menagement = Bullshit ! Organization = Bullshit ! Trust = Bullshit !
Do you people even see how you look from a side ? Go play some Blink !
|
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
85
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:54:00 -
[344] - Quote
^ not sure if serious....
CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats
Point of fact, to my knowledge you didn't mention the HQ nerf at all before it hit TQ.
Getting people to go test things on SISI is difficult, though....when I tried we could barely hold 10 people, much less keep enough for an assault fleet up. Perhaps something like this could be treated something like a mass test, next time? You could put the changes on SISI, and announce that, for example, whoever can gather x amount of LP in an incursion would get free skillpoints like in the mast tests. Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if youit strapped a beehive to Robocop.-Kale Eledar |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:15:00 -
[345] - Quote
Kodavor wrote:Are you all f*****g gamblers ?
Money is made only in gambles ! Money is made only in gambles ! Is that the only thing that is in your head ?
RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !
GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE !
No risk = No reward . Effort = Bullshit ! . Menagement = Bullshit ! Organization = Bullshit ! Trust = Bullshit !
Do you people even see how you look from a side ? Go play some Blink !
oh please, all capsulers that don't fly where concord is have to face those things daily.
effort, organization and trust. you HS bears shouldn't lecture us about that |
Gonzo TheGreat
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:17:00 -
[346] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote:Amazingly, Incursions made trust into a critical gameplay element. Nowhere else in eve would you trust a complete stranger with so much of your hard work. I cannot see why CCP felt this was something worth fiddling with.
Contrary to the popular belief, EvE existed before incursions and there were instances when people trusted complete strangers, it would result in scams.
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Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 18:55:00 -
[347] - Quote
Xorv wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes. Please remove CONCORD from High sec Incursions systems. A way to formally ally with the Sansha and fight on their side would be nice as well.
Oh god, if there were DED sites in Incursion constellations that you could run for equivalent rewards from the Sansha.... |
Frau Leinsmarch
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 19:07:00 -
[348] - Quote
Vizvig wrote: Most of people in WH is isk farmers or carebears. Most carebear in WH is one man (or 2) with large pos and 3-4 alts on dreadnought's.
Most of them pays game by PLEX.
All carebears ay?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13139972
That is what happens to carebear fleets in WH. I wish high-sec incursion carebears would stop bitching about how they've been slightly nerfed.
There is no risk in running incursions in high-sec, the NPCs are easier than those of a C6 WH and there is no risk in being ganked.
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drdxie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 20:17:00 -
[349] - Quote
I really don't see what all the fuss is about, you can still make more with Incursions than you can doing level 4's. The problem now is that everyone is running around crying "over nerfed" and not actually running the sites. I personally still do incursions as its a social thing for me, I make most of my isk in wh's, mostly solo :(. |
Kim Wilde
Covenant
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 21:54:00 -
[350] - Quote
javer wrote:well that is a response we can live with, thing is we can allready tell you that vanguards is overnerfed when a fleet needs to field 5x3bill+3x1.5bill+2x0.5bill ships to make 1/3 of before then ..... Quit making changes on a whim, and document what the hell you do. changes that aint in patch notes is called bugs for most companies, but for ccp then it means a gm will have to say sorry its a new feature suck it up and have fun.... QFT
the point made is that the changes on tq and sisi was not the same, and you had reports saying it was overnerfed at sisi and yet you forged ahead and deliverd a even more crippling change to tq also everything you did flies in the face of stated goals from the devblog, so the opinion that the changes made from sisi wasnt tested nor documented is quite clearly true |
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Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
86
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 21:59:00 -
[351] - Quote
Frau Leinsmarch wrote:the NPCs are easier than those of a C6 WH
Like hell they are. Incursion rats (high/low/null are all the same type) are MUCH more dangerous per capita. There's not as many neuts, no, but the incoming dps is far higher, there are jammers, there are snipers(120km+ orbits on some), there are battleships doing 800dps apiece while neuting, scramming, and painting you, there are still ships capable of draining a BS to 0 cap in seconds...hell, they even have fleet boosters. They also have shields, and generally higher EHP.
You can do a C6 with...what was it, four RR tengus? Try than in HQs and you'll get melted before you have time to take down anything that isn't a frigate. Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if youit strapped a beehive to Robocop.-Kale Eledar |
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 23:56:00 -
[352] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:
Beacause it was injecting too much isk in the economy and because the reward/risk ratio was out of whack compared to other activities.
However they dun goofd up.
There is some truth to this. Incursions were generation 8 trillion a month through a relatively low percentage of the population. Not quite the 26 trillion from bounties, but enough to compare to WH isk generation.
Dr EyjoG stated during fanfest that incursions were not the problem, but rather a balance issue involving too much isk being made by a select percentage. The possibility of 410 million isk per day seems like a lot, but I know a good many market traders, complex runners and wormholers that make a billion overnight.
Yet, this hardly warranted an immediate, rushed fix. That's exactly what this was. Affinity, your team rushed to push this out before the patch without collecting the proper data or really analyzing the impact this would have. 20 days of Sisi testing was nowhere near enough. Please include the need for urgency in the dev blog also.
Incursion populations were on the rise. Perhaps we were all drawn towards the isk faucet, but I'm willing to bet a good percentage of the population were just glad to have a source of income that didn't involve mechanics that have been around for 9 years (and don't involve living out of a POS).
The real issue facing the eve economy, as Dr EyjoG said, is a lack of isk faucets. More isk is coming into our wallets than leaving it. The solution is not to **** off your subscribers by ruining their activities, but to give us more content to spend our hard-earned isk on. Revert these changes and do this right.
Also, the low-risk issues of incursions have been discussed. Safety in incursions was/is an illusion. 2 people can run 10/10 sites. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
121
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 00:15:00 -
[353] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats Might it be possible to obtain some idea of the degree which it was intended for incursion, particularly VG income, to come down? And were the benchmarks used the average fleet or "shiny fleet" setups (or are those the average now)? |
DJ N00B
National Order Of Bastards Yearning
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 00:53:00 -
[354] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote:[quote=Just Alter]
The real issue facing the eve economy, as Dr EyjoG said, is a lack of isk faucets.
just to correct the statement....should read lack of isk sinks.
He also stated during the discussion that the amount of money coming in (faucet) was over 50 trillion per month while the money going out (sink) was only about half that. So....
Even if you take incursions out entirely you would still have a large imbalance to the faucets vs sinks. Prior to incursions they absolutely should have know that adding another faucet would only compound this issue. Again, they stated incursion money wasn't the problem and that real issue was lack of balance of faucet vs sink. Also as so many have stated, there are plenty of other ways for people to make as much as or more isk running incursions. So the whole argument about how nerfing incursions was to bring the economy back in balance is BS. |
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 00:54:00 -
[355] - Quote
DJ N00B wrote:RabbidFerret wrote:[quote=Just Alter]
The real issue facing the eve economy, as Dr EyjoG said, is a lack of isk faucets.
just to correct the statement....should read lack of isk sinks.
Corrected, thank you.. |
Galerak
CASCADE OF SPECTRES Comic Mischief
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 01:08:00 -
[356] - Quote
I completely agree with the OP. I agree that vg's needed a nerf and honestly for the past year I've been predicting a large nerf or a removal based on story and plausibility. But as CCP has opted not to remove incursions, I think they have nerfed them a little too hard. One or maybe 2 of the changes would have been sufficient to balance vg payout per time invested.
Since the changes: Fleet composition has become more specific and exclusive to compensate for the increased difficulty and public/pick up fleets are just gone. (At least I havent seen a single random fleet doing vg's since the patch)
Shiny fleet groups (such as BTL, ISN, SAQD, DTM etc) have been less active as it has been harder to fill all the roles required. For example the group I usually fleet with ran almost around the clock, replacing people/FCs as necessary and splitting into additional fleets when enough people were waiting. Since the patch, it has taken up to 7-8 hrs for the same group to get a single fleet running and the fleet runs for as little as a few hrs.
Prior to the changes, random pick up fleets took 5-6 min per vg (time is from start of one site to start of following site) and organized group fleets (BTL/ISN etc) took about 4 min. Site times are now averaging 7 minutes for organized fleets. Almost double the time for 90% of the previous payout which means ISK/hr is down about 40-60% depending on how smoothly the fleet keeps running.
In summary, I think that while a nerf was needed for balance, the number of changes have caused an imbalance in the other direction. As it is now Vanguards are as profitable as Lvl 4 missions but require the teamwork and coordination of 11 pilots in roughly 2+billion isk ships.
Also I'd like to propose that CCP consider a LP or ISK bonus for Fleet commanders. These guys work hard to tag targets, keep a waiting list, broadcast aligns/destinations, remind you to pull drones or when to start running the ore and a multitude of other things on top of flying and shooting... please show the Incursion FC's some love! |
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 01:13:00 -
[357] - Quote
Galerak wrote:
Also I'd like to propose that CCP consider a LP or ISK bonus for Fleet commanders. These guys work hard to tag targets, keep a waiting list, broadcast aligns/destinations, remind you to pull drones or when to start running the ore and a multitude of other things on top of flying and shooting... please show the Incursion FC's some love!
That's actually an amazing idea. +1
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DJ N00B
National Order Of Bastards Yearning
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 01:34:00 -
[358] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote:Galerak wrote:
Also I'd like to propose that CCP consider a LP or ISK bonus for Fleet commanders. These guys work hard to tag targets, keep a waiting list, broadcast aligns/destinations, remind you to pull drones or when to start running the ore and a multitude of other things on top of flying and shooting... please show the Incursion FC's some love!
That's actually an amazing idea. +1
Not be self serving but yeah I like the idea as well.
And for crying out loud can we get logi's some love and give them the same standings benefits the dps members get. |
Galerak
CASCADE OF SPECTRES Comic Mischief
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 01:51:00 -
[359] - Quote
DJ N00B wrote:RabbidFerret wrote:Galerak wrote:
Also I'd like to propose that CCP consider a LP or ISK bonus for Fleet commanders. These guys work hard to tag targets, keep a waiting list, broadcast aligns/destinations, remind you to pull drones or when to start running the ore and a multitude of other things on top of flying and shooting... please show the Incursion FC's some love!
That's actually an amazing idea. +1 Not be self serving but yeah I like the idea as well. And for crying out loud can we get logi's some love and give them the same standings benefits the dps members get.
DJ You and the other FCs deserve it. Personally I have no desire to FC but I appreciate and respect all the FC's that are willing to put the work, and patience into it and it only seems fitting that the longer a fleet runs the more the FC should be rewarded for the effort. And I dont think this should just apply to Incursions but any pve fleet.
As for the Logistics pilots... I agree as they are a crucial part of the fleets they should get the same rewards even something minor like standings.
But back on topic. I think removing either the Mara's or the Niarja's from the OTA's could bring them back in balance from a dificulty/time perspective. I'm not really sure what might need to be changed for the NCO/NMC's. We seemed to be doing relatively good against those. |
DJ N00B
National Order Of Bastards Yearning
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 03:26:00 -
[360] - Quote
Thank you for that Galerak
I do agree that the biggest issue on the OTA's is the Mara. When you combine the range, velocities, its mwd, and the tiny sig radius, it quite a challenge to kill. I don't mind the challenge per se, but when it's a challenge even for a nice shiny fleet it really messes things up for the pug fleets.
As far as the other sites, I haven't quite decided what changes, if any, would be good for them. I'll probably at some point in the near future put together a list of recommendations for each of the sites. There are a lot of ideas floating around right now. |
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RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
4
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Posted - 2012.05.01 05:00:00 -
[361] - Quote
Galerak wrote:
But back on topic. I think removing either the Mara's or the Niarja's from the OTA's could bring them back in balance from a dificulty/time perspective. I'm not really sure what might need to be changed for the NCO/NMC's. We seemed to be doing relatively good against those.
Possibly moving the hacking arrays to within 70k-ish of the fleet warp in. Currently, the hacker is limited by the speed of the fleet if he wants to stay in rep range. Yes you can move logis between the arrays and the fleet but that's suddenly neglecting all of those remote reps and transfers your BSes are carrying. This is being discussed here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=102984&find=unread (although not constructively).
I can understand the desire to randomize spawns a little bit and the need to kill the whole spawn was an effect of random spawns (otherwise you could end up with completely random triggers). Spawns, and probably unit types, need to be tweaked to deliver the same amount of DPS without adding an additional 5-7 targets to kill. So up the number of battleships or tweak cruiser dps. Take Mara's off the trigger requirements..
Another option is to remove the "kill the wave" mechanic and randomize the supporting units. So for example in an NMC, keep the Tama's waves a constant (and still the trigger), but randomize Niarja, Mara and Auga spawns. Keep us on our toes a little bit. Ignoring 4 or 5 Maras might become a tactical mistake. |
Gabriel Luminati
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 06:40:00 -
[362] - Quote
DJ N00B wrote:RabbidFerret wrote:Galerak wrote:
Also I'd like to propose that CCP consider a LP or ISK bonus for Fleet commanders. These guys work hard to tag targets, keep a waiting list, broadcast aligns/destinations, remind you to pull drones or when to start running the ore and a multitude of other things on top of flying and shooting... please show the Incursion FC's some love!
That's actually an amazing idea. +1 Not be self serving but yeah I like the idea as well. And for crying out loud can we get logi's some love and give them the same standings benefits the dps members get.
This is the main reason why i gave up FCing VGs and Assaults. You just dont get anything extra for stepping up and showing initiative and organisational skills. Also, i believe its the FCs that help fleet members to have a fun, relaxing and enjoyable environment. Some may be hard up but generally they encourage people to interact and laugh over shared matters. FCs are like Morpheus = "Without him, we are lost" (Matrix quote). |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 11:31:00 -
[363] - Quote
Annunaki soldier wrote:why people dont get it that incursions and their money involved really were adding more to pvp , also to industrialist . The money from there where spent to buying pvp ships to break all the time , that you buy t2 things , that people produce those. Now with limiting the money involved we all lose. PvPer's that had the incursion for their supply of ships will just buy less ships , cheaper ships also. That also include less money to people that produce that.
As for mining instead of limiting the other money why not fix the mining money involved and raise their profit in order to actually be profitable being a miner ( i am always talking about high sec things )
Those that say people will go low sec now they are mistaken. People that didnt go low sec , will stay high sec even if they nerf things to the bottom. If you deny their option to substain their accounts and limit the fun THEY want for them then they will just leave for another game.
That is a logic facility. Incursions generate nothing of real value, as isk have not much value in itself and concord LP are not much used. Miners generate ore, ore which can be used to refine to minerals, which can be used to build ships. At each of those steps value is generated. Buying those ships does not generate anything. Blowing those ships up generate demand, which is good because without demand the production chain would fail. All activities that just generate isk are mainly inflations factors, as isk has limited use besides trade. Only npc items can be "created" via isk > LP Store Items and Skillbooks mainly. Ask yourself. If everyone would just farm sanctums, incursions and missions, would there still be any ships left to buy with all the isk generated?
Still, incursions should be balanced in relation to other isk generating activities, like missions and anomalies, and as well at least partly balanced compared to production related activities like mining, t3 production, etc
Currently incursions seem to be unbalanced at least to missions, which could be fixed with either increasing incursion isk or decreasing mission isk. I would prefer the later, a general bounty nerf sounds good to me. |
Druid Cilnok
Moon In Scorpio RED.OverLord
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 16:23:00 -
[364] - Quote
I am a 0.0 bear like many incursion runners. I only ever ran incursions a couple days a month to pay for the months PVP losses which are inevitable and for a plex for my PVE alt.
Less time doing PVE means more time doing something more fun, PVP which is why i still enjoy Eve. I have never at all enjoyed grinding for isk, because its work, and this is supposed to be a game, not work. So incursions were a welcome form of PVE because like PVP i got to interact and work in a fleet, but like mission running it was predictable so i felt comfortable enough risking my expensive BS with relative strangers.
In no other place am i likely to fly and trust people like i have in incursions. I just dont understand what was broken. ANYONE could have got into an incursion fleet, most people have alts, and its not too difficult to train into a required ship type, be that a legion or machariel or basi or guardian.
So what if carebears were making tens of billions of isk and never going to 0.0. who cares? they get ganked sooner or later and we all laugh at their shiny KMs.
The likely result i can see from this, is less people being in 0.0 cos they need to spend more time grinding, as if 0.0 wasnt empty enough :o
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xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
41
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Posted - 2012.05.01 21:14:00 -
[365] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Vizvig wrote: Most of people in WH is isk farmers or carebears. Most carebear in WH is one man (or 2) with large pos and 3-4 alts on dreadnought's.
Most of them pays game by PLEX.
aren't incursion exactly the same??? anyway, if you say as if wh that easy, why are you still in kspace??
Well, not everyone that does incursions lives in K-space all the time. As I've said over and over, my alliance live in wormholes. We don't quite have your alliances infrastructure to make anywhere near as much profit from W-Space yet.
I substitute my income with incursions, I don't sit in a VG blitz fleet for hours at a time grinding. I do Assault and Headquarter, because I feel they are more challenging and enjoyable in general. I just wish there was more reward for our effort.
And no, we aren't all multi-boxing, most if not all fleet commanders I know have a strict policy against people duel boxing. (with exception of out of grid boosters for fleet bonuses)
W-Space isn't that dangerous if you prepare and are careful... we had an incident the other night where a K162 opened up into a C5. The people inside came in and chased down our Sleeper site running fleet. We managed to evade the large fleet they had with no loses. Keeping scouts on WH's and checking D-scan regularly isn't hard to do. If we had enough people online we would have fought them... but our numbers were about 1/3 theirs.
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xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
41
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Posted - 2012.05.01 21:33:00 -
[366] - Quote
DJ N00B wrote:RabbidFerret wrote:Galerak wrote:
Also I'd like to propose that CCP consider a LP or ISK bonus for Fleet commanders. These guys work hard to tag targets, keep a waiting list, broadcast aligns/destinations, remind you to pull drones or when to start running the ore and a multitude of other things on top of flying and shooting... please show the Incursion FC's some love!
That's actually an amazing idea. +1 Not be self serving but yeah I like the idea as well. And for crying out loud can we get logi's some love and give them the same standings benefits the dps members get.
It is coming... Or at least hopefully.
It was mentioned that Logistics and other Beneficial effects are likely to be showing up on KM's for contributions. If this is true, then some of this mechanic would be able to provide the server with a listing of who was assisting in the killing of people and NPC's. If I'm right it would mean that logi pilots would be able to gain Sec-status as well.
For now, you could just pack DPS drones and assign them to the Drone ball... Those little shots may not be a massive impact on the fleet but will at least be a bonus for your logi pilots. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
24
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Posted - 2012.05.01 21:47:00 -
[367] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Apolyon I wrote:Vizvig wrote: Most of people in WH is isk farmers or carebears. Most carebear in WH is one man (or 2) with large pos and 3-4 alts on dreadnought's.
Most of them pays game by PLEX.
aren't incursion exactly the same??? anyway, if you say as if wh that easy, why are you still in kspace?? Well, not everyone that does incursions lives in K-space all the time. As I've said over and over, my alliance live in wormholes. We don't quite have your alliances infrastructure to make anywhere near as much profit from W-Space yet. I substitute my income with incursions, I don't sit in a VG blitz fleet for hours at a time grinding. I do Assault and Headquarter, because I feel they are more challenging and enjoyable in general. I just wish there was more reward for our effort. And no, we aren't all multi-boxing, most if not all fleet commanders I know have a strict policy against people duel boxing. (with exception of out of grid boosters for fleet bonuses) W-Space isn't that dangerous if you prepare and are careful... we had an incident the other night where a K162 opened up into a C5. The people inside came in and chased down our Sleeper site running fleet. We managed to evade the large fleet they had with no loses. Keeping scouts on WH's and checking D-scan regularly isn't hard to do. If we had enough people online we would have fought them... but our numbers were about 1/3 theirs. I dont know what kind of sleeper running fleet you have, but probably a few drake
anyway, if you can do that in wspace, it also means incursion is even safer since there's no bubble in HS |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
41
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Posted - 2012.05.01 22:28:00 -
[368] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:Apolyon I wrote:Vizvig wrote: Most of people in WH is isk farmers or carebears. Most carebear in WH is one man (or 2) with large pos and 3-4 alts on dreadnought's.
Most of them pays game by PLEX.
aren't incursion exactly the same??? anyway, if you say as if wh that easy, why are you still in kspace?? Well, not everyone that does incursions lives in K-space all the time. As I've said over and over, my alliance live in wormholes. We don't quite have your alliances infrastructure to make anywhere near as much profit from W-Space yet. I substitute my income with incursions, I don't sit in a VG blitz fleet for hours at a time grinding. I do Assault and Headquarter, because I feel they are more challenging and enjoyable in general. I just wish there was more reward for our effort. And no, we aren't all multi-boxing, most if not all fleet commanders I know have a strict policy against people duel boxing. (with exception of out of grid boosters for fleet bonuses) W-Space isn't that dangerous if you prepare and are careful... we had an incident the other night where a K162 opened up into a C5. The people inside came in and chased down our Sleeper site running fleet. We managed to evade the large fleet they had with no loses. Keeping scouts on WH's and checking D-scan regularly isn't hard to do. If we had enough people online we would have fought them... but our numbers were about 1/3 theirs. I dont know what kind of sleeper running fleet you have, but probably a few drake anyway, if you can do that in wspace, it also means incursion is even safer since there's no bubble in HS
LOL... well our Sleeper fleet at the time was 5 tengu and a scimitar.
Their fleet was a phobos, devotor, 4 tengu, proteus, 2 loki, 2 legion, armageddon, 2 tornado... And a few more, but those are the ones I remembered off the top of my head.
I know it's not as super awesome cool as your multiple capital farming set up... But we don't want to dedicate those levels of resources that deep into W-space yet. Maybe we will upgrade later.
We had to log off the Noctis and I probed it a way out the next morning, since it wasn't actually our WH we were farming. |
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:04:00 -
[369] - Quote
Still patiently awaiting a dev response that properly addresses our concerns. |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
236
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:28:00 -
[370] - Quote
plexlon wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats Hopefully that doesn't mean "We've decided to ignore this entirely. If subscriptions are not dramatically down by September we will assume you have adjusted and do other stuff now. We really have no intenion of either admitting a really dumb move or fixing it. Admissions are embarassing and fixes are work. kthnxbye." On a related note I've heard that the changes on SiSi wer Not the same as the changes on Tranquility. If so saying the community was notified and "we monitored the test server" is a bit like a plumber turning on your ktichen sink, asking you if that looks good, then blowing up your toilet. Not a sevice I'd recommend.
The changes that went on SISI are the exact same changes that we then ported to TQ... That is just a fact :)
CCP Affinity | Team Five 0 |-á @CCP_Affinity |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
237
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Posted - 2012.05.03 10:52:00 -
[371] - Quote
Just an update, I am reading through all this feedback and we will be making a more detailed post next week about our own findings. I have also had some really valuable feedback, both while the changes were on SISI and now they are on TQ, from the owner and co-owner of BTL pub and other long-term Incursion runners. I have even run Incursions on SISI with them to see how they felt about the changes live.
I don't have anything concrete to tell you right now, but I just wanted to make an update post to let you all know I am still reading this and we do care!
I fully understand that a lot of you are angry but if we could all try and aim for constructive feedback from now on, it will help quicken this process a lot. ''I HATE IT ALL!! YOU SUCK'' <-- an example of a post that isn't going to help.
To dispel any myths - The changes on SISI and TQ were exactly the same, this isn't even up for debate as it's just a fact and it's just how our development process works. CCP Affinity | Team Five 0 |-á @CCP_Affinity |
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Galerak
CASCADE OF SPECTRES Comic Mischief
8
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Posted - 2012.05.03 11:38:00 -
[372] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Just an update, I am reading through all this feedback and we will be making a more detailed post next week about our own findings. I have also had some really valuable feedback, both while the changes were on SISI and now they are on TQ, from the owner and co-owner of BTL pub and other long-term Incursion runners. I have even run Incursions on SISI with them to see how they felt about the changes live.
I don't have anything concrete to tell you right now, but I just wanted to make an update post to let you all know I am still reading this and we do care!
I fully understand that a lot of you are angry but if we could all try and aim for constructive feedback from now on, it will help quicken this process a lot. ''I HATE IT ALL!! YOU SUCK'' <-- an example of a post that isn't going to help.
To dispel any myths - The changes on SISI and TQ were exactly the same, this isn't even up for debate as it's just a fact and it's just how our development process works.
The update is appreciated, Affinity. Sometimes it's hard to tell if any of the constructive suggestions are even being read. I mean between people arguing about WH vs Incursions vs mission and all the "This SUCKS!" posts, finding them can be a chore. As for constructive criticism, it might help if we knew what CCP's goals / guidelines for what Incursions (or vanguards) should be are. Right now everyone is kinda shooting in the dark with what the individual feels would be better but without any context from CCP there's no way of knowing if our suggestions/ideas are even aimed in the right direction.
As for the rest of us lets try to keep this on topic guys and if you have any useful suggestions on how to modify the incursions to balance them out a bit better, now would be the time to post them.
Just from my own experience, OTA's seem to be taking the longest (at least for BS shield fleets) by at least a couple minutes. Again, I think that if the Niarjas or (preferrably) the Maras were removed they would be on par with NCO's as far as difficulty and time. Really the NCO's and NMC's havent seemed very bothersome to me in shield fleets but that's just my .02 isk. We dont use hackers or at least we havent been so moving the array wouldnt make it any easier for us but i think it's a solid idea as well for those that need that to complete the sites. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:20:00 -
[373] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Just an update, I am reading through all this feedback and we will be making a more detailed post next week about our own findings. I have also had some really valuable feedback, both while the changes were on SISI and now they are on TQ, from the owner and co-owner of BTL pub and other long-term Incursion runners. I have even run Incursions on SISI with them to see how they felt about the changes live.
I don't have anything concrete to tell you right now, but I just wanted to make an update post to let you all know I am still reading this and we do care!
I fully understand that a lot of you are angry but if we could all try and aim for constructive feedback from now on, it will help quicken this process a lot. ''I HATE IT ALL!! YOU SUCK'' <-- an example of a post that isn't going to help.
To dispel any myths - The changes on SISI and TQ were exactly the same, this isn't even up for debate as it's just a fact and it's just how our development process works.
Can you possibly explain to me, maybe it's something I've just not understood or missed.
But why are Incursions the only instance in eve, where the harder, longer more effort involved actions (headquarter sites) are the lowest income per hour, when compared to the lesser sites. Such as Assaults and Vanguards?
If this same strange structure was ported over to mission runners, no one would ever go above lvl 2 missions..
I can understand that incursions weren't meant to be farmed at Vanguard levels to the point of almost exploitation. it's my opinion that they were supposed to build up to bigger fleets and bring more people together... A lot of small Vanguard fleets, leaves a combative feeling and resentment within communities. But building up to Assaults and Headquarters brings more groups of people together. But the incentive to make bigger fleets isn't there People are more likely to leave incursions back to mission than build up to Assaults. When there is no real financial benefit to make more effort and take bigger risks. |
March rabbit
Trojan Trolls Red Alliance
169
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:53:00 -
[374] - Quote
Galerak wrote:Also I'd like to propose that CCP consider a LP or ISK bonus for Fleet commanders. These guys work hard to tag targets, keep a waiting list, broadcast aligns/destinations, remind you to pull drones or when to start running the ore and a multitude of other things on top of flying and shooting... please show the Incursion FC's some love! Why CCP? Fleet members have all the things to reward fleet commanders. The same is for logistic ships.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:41:00 -
[375] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Just an update, I am reading through all this feedback and we will be making a more detailed post next week about our own findings. I have also had some really valuable feedback, both while the changes were on SISI and now they are on TQ, from the owner and co-owner of BTL pub and other long-term Incursion runners. I have even run Incursions on SISI with them to see how they felt about the changes live.
I don't have anything concrete to tell you right now, but I just wanted to make an update post to let you all know I am still reading this and we do care!
I fully understand that a lot of you are angry but if we could all try and aim for constructive feedback from now on, it will help quicken this process a lot. ''I HATE IT ALL!! YOU SUCK'' <-- an example of a post that isn't going to help.
To dispel any myths - The changes on SISI and TQ were exactly the same, this isn't even up for debate as it's just a fact and it's just how our development process works.
Please stick to your guns on this one.
Everyone who was NOT an incursion farmer (including CCP) could see the problem with the initial system. People should not have been able to make anywhere near that kind of money in "safe" space, that is supposed to be the inherent purpose of eve's sec status system.
I live in null sec and make my isk mostly by shooting npcs in anomalies in an upgraded system (dual boxing a mach and a tengu usually, it's NPC slaughter I tell you)). ONE GUY with a cloaky ship coming into system and staying there can shut me down, but im not complaining about that, that's actualy something to balances the fact that I can make so much an hour shooting rats that respawn. Either I have to stop, or (more liekly) i alert my allaince to a possible hotdrop and refit as cyno/bait (and a good time is had by all :) ).
Then I went and took a nightmare into a few shiny incursion fleets with a buddy of mine who is in one of the more well known incursion corps. OMFG, I made the same kind of isk with one ship in high sec in an incursion fleet that it takes me 2 ships to make in null. sure, in the incursions there were 10 other folks (one of grid boosting), but there was NEVEr any shortage of incursion pick up fleets looking for shiny ships even if I hadn't already hooked up with my buddies corp.
Of course I liked the isk and LP (bought some +6 implants when i had enough), but it just kind of bordered on obsecene to me, it was obvioulsy broken. i thought level 4 missions in high sec was bad (I still think that), but this is worse.
So please, stick to your guns, you shouldn't be able to do what people were doing before, not in high sec where there is less risk. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:26:00 -
[376] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Please stick to your guns on this one.
Everyone who was NOT an incursion farmer (including CCP) could see the problem with the initial system. People should not have been able to make anywhere near that kind of money in "safe" space, that is supposed to be the inherent purpose of eve's sec status system.
I live in null sec and make my isk mostly by shooting npcs in anomalies in an upgraded system (dual boxing a mach and a tengu usually, it's NPC slaughter I tell you)). ONE GUY with a cloaky ship coming into system and staying there can shut me down, but im not complaining about that, that's actualy something to balances the fact that I can make so much an hour shooting rats that respawn. Either I have to stop, or (more liekly) i alert my allaince to a possible hotdrop and refit as cyno/bait (and a good time is had by all :) ).
Then I went and took a nightmare into a few shiny incursion fleets with a buddy of mine who is in one of the more well known incursion corps. OMFG, I made the same kind of isk with one ship in high sec in an incursion fleet that it takes me 2 ships to make in null. sure, in the incursions there were 10 other folks (one of grid boosting), but there was NEVEr any shortage of incursion pick up fleets looking for shiny ships even if I hadn't already hooked up with my buddies corp.
Of course I liked the isk and LP (bought some +6 implants when i had enough), but it just kind of bordered on obsecene to me, it was obvioulsy broken. i thought level 4 missions in high sec was bad (I still think that), but this is worse.
So please, stick to your guns, you shouldn't be able to do what people were doing before, not in high sec where there is less risk.
Please stop saying there is more risk in Null sec... you just confirmed that you are perfectly safe if someone does come across you in your system, that you are not likely to die... because you either don't do the sites or you bait a Hotdrop... which of those two options are a risk?
Is your alt going to turn on you and grief you? Is your alt going to refuse reps? is your alt going to warp out the logi squad so you die and get your stuff looted by his friends?
No, these things all happen in incursions. So much so that we have to keep a list of the assholes that do them, to protect ourselves against the risk of being griefed by can flippers, logi gankers, rep withholders and suicidal ECM'ers... Yes some people can do incursions for a long time and never be griefed. But you cannot say that the Incursion community is "Risk Free"
I've no problem with reducing the income per hour, but I just hate when people say "Risk Free" because it is definitely not risk free I lost a multi-billion isk fit Paladin because a Logi held back on Reps. Are you saying that was risk free? |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:40:00 -
[377] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Please stop saying there is more risk in Null sec... you just confirmed that you are perfectly safe if someone does come across you in your system, that you are not likely to die... because you either don't do the sites or you bait a Hotdrop... which of those two options are a risk?
Is your alt going to turn on you and grief you? Is your alt going to refuse reps? is your alt going to warp out the logi squad so you die and get your stuff looted by his friends?
No, these things all happen in incursions. So much so that we have to keep a list of the assholes that do them, to protect ourselves against the risk of being griefed by can flippers, logi gankers, rep withholders and suicidal ECM'ers... Yes some people can do incursions for a long time and never be griefed. But you cannot say that the Incursion community is "Risk Free"
I've no problem with reducing the income per hour, but I just hate when people say "Risk Free" because it is definitely not risk free I lost a multi-billion isk fit Paladin because a Logi held back on Reps. Are you saying that was risk free?
deffo risk free, it's your choice to fly shiny instead of T1 in order to get 10m more an hr.
if you fly T1 noone would bother griefing you. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1460
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:30:00 -
[378] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Why CCP? Fleet members have all the things to reward fleet commanders. The same is for logistic ships. "Remember to tip your FC!"
Actually, I kind of like that idea. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:49:00 -
[379] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote: Please stop saying there is more risk in Null sec... you just confirmed that you are perfectly safe if someone does come across you in your system, that you are not likely to die... because you either don't do the sites or you bait a Hotdrop... which of those two options are a risk?
The one where people shoot at you which aside from Suicide ganking and declared wars does not happen to people in high sec.
Quote: Is your alt going to turn on you and grief you? Is your alt going to refuse reps? is your alt going to warp out the logi squad so you die and get your stuff looted by his friends?
All of which is fixed by not flying with people you don't know.
Quote: No, these things all happen in incursions. So much so that we have to keep a list of the assholes that do them, to protect ourselves against the risk of being griefed by can flippers, logi gankers, rep withholders and suicidal ECM'ers... Yes some people can do incursions for a long time and never be griefed. But you cannot say that the Incursion community is "Risk Free"
And just who said "Risk Free". I said less risk. But it IS very low , easily mitigatable risk. Concord won't help me in null sec olol.
And in a place where risk is so low, people shold not be able to make so much isk. That people are rolling around Incursions in super pimp fits is evidence of what was wrong with the system, you don't see that in low-sec or null incursions.
The outragious sense of entitlement coming from incursion farmers is the main reason why most of the rest of us have so little sympathy for you people.
Quote: I've no problem with reducing the income per hour, but I just hate when people say "Risk Free" because it is definitely not risk free I lost a multi-billion isk fit Paladin because a Logi held back on Reps. Are you saying that was risk free?
Learn to read. And don't fly what you don't want to lose. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1460
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:54:00 -
[380] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:I lost a multi-billion isk fit Paladin because a Logi held back on Reps. Are you saying that was risk free? That's the same risk as handing your ship to a stranger who promises "sure, I'll put T2 rigs on it!" Yes it's risky, it's also foolish and your own choice to trust someone you don't know is reliable. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
|
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:03:00 -
[381] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
So please, stick to your guns, you shouldn't be able to do what people were doing before, not in high sec where there is less risk.
I doubt there are many of us willing to argue that the previous system of farming VGs and ignoring everything else wasn't, at least in some way, broken. A 10 or 20% decrease in payoff is fair. Assaults and HQs should be our goal. Our problem here and the reason why CCP shouldn't "stick to their guns" is that this was far more than a pay decrease. It brought a risky, group-oriented activity on par with lvl 4 incomes which absolutely shattered the incursion community. It was improperly documented and their reasoning was not explained prior to the nerf.
Now, I am curious to see what your income would be like if you gathered 10 of your friends in shiny BSes and you blitzed anomalies all day. Eve is a game that rewards groups. Even in a "higher risk" (but not really) area, you should not be able to make more than a focused group of veteran players working towards a common goal.
CCP Affinity wrote: Just an update, I am reading through all this feedback and we will be making a more detailed post next week about our own findings. I have also had some really valuable feedback, both while the changes were on SISI and now they are on TQ, from the owner and co-owner of BTL pub and other long-term Incursion runners. I have even run Incursions on SISI with them to see how they felt about the changes live.
Thank you for the update. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:22:00 -
[382] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
So please, stick to your guns, you shouldn't be able to do what people were doing before, not in high sec where there is less risk.
I doubt there are many of us willing to argue that the previous system of farming VGs and ignoring everything else wasn't, at least in some way, broken. A 10 or 20% decrease in payoff is fair. Assaults and HQs should be our goal. Our problem here and the reason why CCP shouldn't "stick to their guns" is that this was far more than a pay decrease. It brought a risky, group-oriented activity on par with lvl 4 incomes which absolutely shattered the incursion community. It was improperly documented and their reasoning was not explained prior to the nerf. Now, I am curious to see what your income would be like if you gathered 10 of your friends in shiny BSes and you blitzed anomalies all day. Eve is a game that rewards groups. Even in a "higher risk" (but not really) area, you should not be able to make more than a focused group of veteran players working towards a common goal. CCP Affinity wrote: Just an update, I am reading through all this feedback and we will be making a more detailed post next week about our own findings. I have also had some really valuable feedback, both while the changes were on SISI and now they are on TQ, from the owner and co-owner of BTL pub and other long-term Incursion runners. I have even run Incursions on SISI with them to see how they felt about the changes live.
Thank you for the update.
hundred of NS dudes fight to hold their space, shouldn't they make more than 60m/hr??? |
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:47:00 -
[383] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:
hundred of NS dudes fight to hold their space, shouldn't they make more than 60m/hr???
You fight to hold your moons and DED plexes, don't let alliance propaganda convince you otherwise. Using the same ships and skills you still make more solo in nullsec than you would in empire. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:49:00 -
[384] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Learn to read. And don't fly what you don't want to lose.
I don't think anyone wants to lose any ship.
I believe it is "Don't fly what you can't AFFORD to lose"
I already said, I agree Vanguards were paying out too much. But there are risk that people take by flying in incursions... Even trusted members of a community turn around and screw them over. We had an incident not so long ago where one of the leaders of BTL had griefed a bunch of people.
There was a Kronos instapopped in a HQ site the other day. It just took way to much Alpha and died before logi's could get lock on him.
Yes, Concord wont come and help you... but you being in your fortress of Null-sec where you POS up as soon as a neutral enters system means you're not exactly at risk. Especially when you have the safety of having fleets near by to kill anyone that could be a possible threat.
There is no such protection for someone in an incursion that gets griefed. So why is your "Risk" any greater than ours? It's a different type of risk, but it's a risk I would say that is just as great.
My main point is still that Vanguards is the most profitable form of incursion running... Would you do do NPCing in 0.0 if it was less profitable in low-sec or hi-sec?
The argument shouldn't be "Incursions are OP" it should be that "Vanguards were OP" That Assaults and Headquarters need buffed as much as Vanguards need nerfed.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
54
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:50:00 -
[385] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote: I doubt there are many of us willing to argue that the previous system of farming VGs and ignoring everything else wasn't, at least in some way, broken. A 10 or 20% decrease in payoff is fair. Assaults and HQs should be our goal. Our problem here and the reason why CCP shouldn't "stick to their guns" is that this was far more than a pay decrease. It brought a risky, group-oriented activity on par with lvl 4 incomes which absolutely shattered the incursion community.
This is like saying "man, those cops raided our favorite drug house, which shattered the crack ******* community" lol.
As I've said in another thread, i don't mind high sec paying a small bit more than level 4s to compensate for the difficulty in getting a group organized, and I'm sure CCP will tweak things. But I'm simply responding to all the over-entitled butt hurt coming from the "Incursion community", which was nothing more than a farming community abusing ill-concieve/iterated content.
Quote: It was improperly documented and their reasoning was not explained prior to the nerf.
I've seen this claim before, b ut it's untrue. I don't even run incursions regularily and I knoew from the devblogs what was coming.
Quote: Now, I am curious to see what your income would be like if you gathered 10 of your friends in shiny BSes and you blitzed anomalies all day.
The same as i do right now, because of how anomalies and the bounty system works, as an individual you don't make "more" isk for yourself by adding more people to the anomalie (and if they do less dps than you, you make less isk because bounties don't scale to effort, 2 people in an anom split the bouties 50/50 even if one does 1000 dps and the other does 100 dps).
Quote:Eve is a game that rewards groups. Even in a "higher risk" (but not really) area, you should not be able to make more than a focused group of veteran players working towards a common goal.
You're talking giberish. No one is saying anything like that (like that Dreadnaught guy, your comprehension is lacking, probably because of your obvious bias towards easy hi-sec isk).
We are talking about individual player income really. And dude in high sec protected from non-consensual pvp (with the exception of suicide ganks and withled reps lol) by concord should not make the same isk/hour as a player who had to join a null sec alliance (and contribute to that alliances defense of it's space) and is not protected from non-consensual pvp by concord.
Incursions should be balanced with the rest of the game. Until now, they weren't.
|
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
227
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:56:00 -
[386] - Quote
Still going on about this eh? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
54
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 20:01:00 -
[387] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Learn to read. And don't fly what you don't want to lose.
I don't think anyone wants to lose any ship. I believe it is "Don't fly what you can't AFFORD to lose"
That's the common saying yes, but not mine. Don't complain about being griefed when you choose the activity. No one makes you do incursions.
Quote: I already said, I agree Vanguards were paying out too much. But there are risk that people take by flying in incursions... Even trusted members of a community turn around and screw them over. We had an incident not so long ago where one of the leaders of BTL had griefed a bunch of people.
There was a Kronos instapopped in a HQ site the other day. It just took way to much Alpha and died before logi's could get lock on him.[/quote]
None of which is the point. I said less risk. The "risk" in incursions is so minor people(like you, by your own admission) fly [/i]multi-billion isk ships[/i] in them. Some risk lol.
Quote: Yes, Concord wont come and help you... but you being in your fortress of Null-sec where you POS up as soon as a neutral enters system means you're not exactly at risk. Especially when you have the safety of having fleets near by to kill anyone that could be a possible threat.
Fleetsof PEOPLE, and POSes that people bought, which means if the people in my allaince go to sleep out out drinking, I have no back up. CONCORD doens't go out to party lol, it's always there.
You misse dhte point. ONE GUY in a cloaky ship can shut down my ratting, you you complain about making less isk in an activitey no one can stop? Sure, people can speed em up and kill the mom, but that's not the same as stopping someone cold. The point is you just shold not have that in high sec.
Low and null incursions making supre isk, sure, but not high sec, that goes against the nature of the game.
Quote: There is no such protection for someone in an incursion that gets griefed. So why is your "Risk" any greater than ours? It's a different type of risk, but it's a risk I would say that is just as great.
You're wrong, again evidenced by the shinyness of the ships you fly. real risk would mean incurions would be filled with nothing but players in tech1 ships lol
|
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 20:43:00 -
[388] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Quote: Now, I am curious to see what your income would be like if you gathered 10 of your friends in shiny BSes and you blitzed anomalies all day.
The same as i do right now, because of how anomalies and the bounty system works, as an individual you don't make "more" isk for yourself by adding more people to the anomalie (and if they do less dps than you, you make less isk because bounties don't scale to effort, 2 people in an anom split the bouties 50/50 even if one does 1000 dps and the other does 100 dps).
I'm well-aware of bounty mechanics and you are wrong. More people means that you are running through those sites exponentially quicker.
Jenn aSide wrote: I've seen this claim before, b ut it's untrue. I don't even run incursions regularily and I knoew from the devblogs what was coming.
Were you aware that they would drop below lvl 4 income? Have you run incursions post nerf or are you now arguing a point without any concrete base besides what you have experienced in the past? I welcome a debate on this topic but there is simply no way that incursions are now "balanced".
Jenn aSide wrote: You're wrong, again evidenced by the shinyness of the ships you fly. real risk would mean incurions would be filled with nothing but players in tech1 ships lol
And your mach and tengu is evidence of the risk in 0.0? 5 years in 0.0 and I never came close to losing a ratting ship. Its the same as incursions: use you're head and you'll come out alright. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:00:00 -
[389] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
That's the common saying yes, but not mine. Don't complain about being griefed when you choose the activity. No one makes you do incursions.
No, but that's a risk someone takes... And that is what you said... take a risk.
Jenn aSide wrote: Yes, Concord wont come and help you... but you being in your fortress of Null-sec where you POS up as soon as a neutral enters system means you're not exactly at risk. Especially when you have the safety of having fleets near by to kill anyone that could be a possible threat.
No, but the difference is... your activity may have to stop, because of one guy. But a single griefer can wipe out an entire incursion fleet and not only stop them from making money but cost them a lot of ships.
Jenn aSide wrote: Fleetsof PEOPLE, and POSes that people bought, which means if the people in my allaince go to sleep out out drinking, I have no back up. CONCORD doens't go out to party lol, it's always there.
You misse dhte point. ONE GUY in a cloaky ship can shut down my ratting, you you complain about making less isk in an activitey no one can stop? Sure, people can speed em up and kill the mom, but that's not the same as stopping someone cold. The point is you just shold not have that in high sec.
Low and null incursions making supre isk, sure, but not high sec, that goes against the nature of the game.
Your alliance didn't have to take Sov of those systems, they could have stuck to the NPC systems to farm, with slightly less risk of losing resources. You and your alliance made the choice to take and upgrade your systems with your resources to make more ISK
Jenn aSide wrote: You're wrong, again evidenced by the shinyness of the ships you fly. real risk would mean incurions would be filled with nothing but players in tech1 ships lol
Well if you're talking risk, why are you using a Mach and a Tengu? To maximise making money... So people buy shiny ships for incursions so that they can make more money quicker. Much as your alliances investments in Null sec they pay off but have their risks.
I don't see where your alliance taking and holding sov so you can make more money doing DED sites and Anoms is in any different light to the incursion runners investing in their ships to optimise their fleets. Your investment should be rewarded but ours shouldn't??? |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
227
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:18:00 -
[390] - Quote
Good god you actually think a form of PvE constitutes risk.
:psyduck: |
|
Hans Momaki
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 23:20:00 -
[391] - Quote
It has been stated, and was proven by evidence that highsec is dangerous. Most mass destroyed was Jita in 2011 and nullsec with intel is a joke.
On top of this, only 1% of those incursion-runners were making huge ammounts of money AND the isk faucet through incursions is not that big at all.
However, vanguards were too much ISK, and it's good that they nerfed it, but it is a bit over the top if lv 4's are paying better.
|
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 00:39:00 -
[392] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Good god you actually think a form of PvE constitutes risk.
:psyduck: How many of these have you done, then?
I run HQ regularly, and there, it's only so safe because the logis and FCs are ******* awesome. You can't be in an environment where a well tanked battleship lasts less than fifteen seconds with no logi, and claim there's no risk.
Is it the same as jumping into a fight with another fleet? No. But it's certainly not risk free. Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if youit strapped a beehive to Robocop.-Kale Eledar |
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 02:00:00 -
[393] - Quote
Stop arguing about risk. It's not the major factor at play here. And no one cares is incursions make more than a solo 0.0 ratter.
I'm going to try to lay something out here:
Basic Solo PVE Income: -Hi Sec Missions -Low Sec Missions -Null Sec Ratting
Basic Group PVE Income : -Incursions -Null Space Complexes -Wormholes
You will notice that both of these lists increase in isk/h and risk as you head down them. Of course there are many other activities and individual echelons within these activities, but for the sake of this analogy just play along.
The problem is that we are comparing Incursions in risk and reward to null sec ratting. Incursions actually fill and nice little spot among the group PVE options. However, the low ends of the group activities should at least be comparable, if not equal, to the high end of the solo. Its an MMO, embrace the group.
Hans Momaki wrote: However, vanguards were too much ISK, and it's good that they nerfed it, but it is a bit over the top if lv 4's are paying better.
This man has summed up our entire argument (also indicated by the thread). Perhaps incursions were making too much isk, but we want this nerf done right. It should have been a process of finding what made incursions tick and slowly draining the excess income, not a total carpet bomb of the system. Thats MMO design 101. We know CCP is capable of pulling this off right; we're not dealing with the EA/DICE death squad here. |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
227
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 02:21:00 -
[394] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:Good god you actually think a form of PvE constitutes risk.
:psyduck: How many of these have you done, then? I run HQ regularly, and there, it's only so safe because the logis and FCs are ******* awesome. You can't be in an environment where a well tanked battleship lasts less than fifteen seconds with no logi, and claim there's no risk. Is it the same as jumping into a fight with another fleet? No. But it's certainly not risk free.
They're npcs. Artificial intelligence. Its safe because you are a human and you are, presumably, smarter than this AI.
The risk that is considered when talking about risk vs reward is player induced risk. As in, other players that could infringe upon your reward. To say that incursions are inherently risky because of NPCs is just silly and ignorant.
Wormhole are risky, not because the NPCs are more powerful, but because of the unknown aspect of wormholes. A wormhole could open to your system while you are fighting npcs with a gang ready to jump you. That is a player induced risk. Plexes in null sec are risky, not because of the EM citadel torps or the neutralizer towers or anything else the NPCs bring to the table, but because its 0.0. A gang could come by any time. Hostiles could probe you down and destroy you.
Now people will argue that there is no risk in these situations because "0.0 is safe" or because "wormholers have the defenders advantage." However, these "safeties are in place because PLAYERS PUT THEM IN PLACE. The risk has been reduced/addressed by the players. Again, we see that the risk is a player induced and regulated aspect of the game.
The biggest risk you have in high sec is war decs (hah) and suicide gankers (lol) and these "risks" are easily regulated. |
Boschala
G and T Deep Space Enterprises Carthage Empires
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 02:23:00 -
[395] - Quote
The fundamental issue is that incursions designed for shiny t3 fleets with t2 logi min/maxed beyond belief will be terrible for anyone not in a shiny fleet. Incursions designed for t1 battleships/battlecruisers with a mix of meta and t2 modules will be farmed mercilessly by the former group.
So why don't we have gate requirements seperating the two? Make one set of incursion sites for t1 boats and balanced to give players trying to move to something more social than level 4s about the same pay as level 4s with an average pub fleet, and about 50% better than level 4s with a min/maxed fleet.The t1 logi will put a natural damper on the shininess of modules put into these fleets.
Then design the 'above t1' (including faction/t2/t3) incursion sites for ridiculously shiny fleets. Balance them around high pay (120-150 mil an hour) and design them to occasionally destroy ships -- via ECM directed at logi, high focused fire alpha, what have you. This will, again, put a damper on the max income as there will be a disinclination to put a 3bil ship on the line.
Keeping one set of sites for both, well, I don't see it working. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 04:22:00 -
[396] - Quote
Boschala wrote:So why don't we have gate requirements seperating the two? Make one set of incursion sites for t1 boats and balanced to give players trying to move to something more social than level 4s about the same pay as level 4s with an average pub fleet, and about 50% better than level 4s with a min/maxed fleet.The t1 logi will put a natural damper on the shininess of modules put into these fleets. Faction battleships are still tech level 1, and replacing logistics ships with RR battleships would be relatively easy. Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if youit strapped a beehive to Robocop.-Kale Eledar |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:26:00 -
[397] - Quote
Everyone that is complaining saying "Incursions are too much isk" are getting it wrong... "Vanguards too much isk" yes that's possibly right.
But just because the only instances of incursion running you have done or your friends have told you about are overpowered and easy to do, don't assume that the much harder and more effort to complete Assault and Headquarter sites are the same. It would be like me saying, "Oh I did one of those 3/10 DED sites. They are so easy, they should nerf all DED sites"
When we did Headquarters sites the other day, it took on average 40 minutes to complete at 31.5 mill pay per site. so that's 46/47mill per hour roughly. For Headquarters... 40 man fleet, in which some pockets have enough incoming DPS to take out a heavily tanked BS in around 10-15 seconds.
I can make more Isk on my own... I have 2 toons with lvl 4 agents, both with the same corp, so I could take missions on both and blitz them duel boxed. Would save myself the effort of finding another 39 people to do HQ sites with. But I find the Incursions more enjoyable. I just wish there was a bigger reward for doing the Assault and Headquarters sites.
Also for those that think the AI for the Incursion NPC's is easily beaten... it's not. They do rapid target switches and alpha strikes. we had several close calls and even lost ships because they would spread fire throughout the groups then suddenly focus fire on one ship. The logi's would struggle to get reps, because they are cycling off of the previous targets. |
RabbidFerret
The Long Kiss Goodnight The Gurlstas Associates
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 08:37:00 -
[398] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote: Also for those that think the AI for the Incursion NPC's is easily beaten... it's not. They do rapid target switches and alpha strikes. we had several close calls and even lost ships because they would spread fire throughout the groups then suddenly focus fire on one ship. The logi's would struggle to get reps, because they are cycling off of the previous targets.
It's a pretty daily occurring to watch someone drop into or near armor on shield fleets. Perhaps not for a perfect fleet, but common fleets often feel the pressure of listening to your logis overheat on a BS. It's often the skill of the pilots around you that keep the fleet from chaos.
A few days before the nerf we had a node drop. Half of our fleet DCed during an OTA. Luckily, 2 basis stayed online. We had them close to burning out all of their mods but they managed to save the fleet. After 8 years of playing Eve, I have never relied so heavily on the skill and aptitude of another player. That was a moment of sheer camaraderie among complete strangers; an example of why CCP should model more of it's mechanics around Incursions.
xVx dreadnaught wrote: But I find the Incursions more enjoyable.
This. |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 09:21:00 -
[399] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: Also for those that think the AI for the Incursion NPC's is easily beaten... it's not. They do rapid target switches and alpha strikes. we had several close calls and even lost ships because they would spread fire throughout the groups then suddenly focus fire on one ship. The logi's would struggle to get reps, because they are cycling off of the previous targets.
It's a pretty daily occurring to watch someone drop into or near armor on shield fleets. Perhaps not for a perfect fleet, but common fleets often feel the pressure of listening to your logis overheat on a BS. It's often the skill of the pilots around you that keep the fleet from chaos. A few days before the nerf we had a node drop. Half of our fleet DCed during an OTA. Luckily, 2 basis stayed online. We had them close to burning out all of their mods but they managed to save the fleet. After 8 years of playing Eve, I have never relied so heavily on the skill and aptitude of another player. That was a moment of sheer camaraderie among complete strangers; an example of why CCP should model more of it's mechanics around Incursions. xVx dreadnaught wrote: But I find the Incursions more enjoyable.
This. I feel bad for you, need 8 years to get to play real eve.
time to get out of HS?? |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 09:38:00 -
[400] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote: time to get out of HS??
And what... Join some massive corporation/alliance and work for them. Make them all stinking rich while working my ass off. To be told that if you don't attend CTA's and other operations that you'll be kicked out?
I can understand the appeal... But I like my corp and my corp doesn't want to join with any big null block, we also have no intention in holding SOV. So the whole Null-sec thing isn't so appealing to us.
We prefer to do a some wormhole stuff and generally take things at our own pace. |
|
Comy 1
Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
121
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:02:00 -
[401] - Quote
There are these nifty areas of null sec you can't take sov in. Rumors say the systems are NPC controlled and anyone can dock in the stations.
If it's a small tight group you want to roll with, why not take said group to one of those areas? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:25:00 -
[402] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Apolyon I wrote: time to get out of HS??
And what... Join some massive corporation/alliance and work for them. Make them all stinking rich while working my ass off. To be told that if you don't attend CTA's and other operations that you'll be kicked out? .
This goes to show the fundemental problem with the incursion "community", and why it's good CCP nerf Incursions.
The incursion people in high sec are getting something for nothing (and got so used to it that they are crying on the forums). Incursion runners (and everyone else) in low and null sec and WHs have to deal with everything the high sec runners do, but with no concord. And for what? slightly better isk per hour maybe?
In order to do what I do in null, I have to put up with being in an alliance, have to put up with non-consensual pvp or the risk thereof, have to deal with logistics (ie own a carrier and another account for a cyno) ect ect.
Trying to reframe the debate into solo pve vs group pve is non-sense, the only common metric that applies is individual pilot isk per hour, period. and no, no matter the activity, if it involved shooting at NPCs a pilot should not be making anywhere near as much in high sec/concord protected space (no matter is the sites have names like "vanguard" or "HQ") than he can in null, low or WH space.
CCP fixed an un-eve-like imbalance and I pray that they stick to it. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:25:00 -
[403] - Quote
Comy 1 wrote:There are these nifty areas of null sec you can't take sov in. Rumors say the systems are NPC controlled and anyone can dock in the stations.
If it's a small tight group you want to roll with, why not take said group to one of those areas?
-EFFORT-
|
Galerak
CASCADE OF SPECTRES Comic Mischief
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:27:00 -
[404] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
We are talking about individual player income really. And dude in high sec protected from non-consensual pvp (with the exception of suicide ganks and withled reps lol) by concord should not make the same isk/hour as a player who had to join a null sec alliance (and contribute to that alliances defense of it's space) and is not protected from non-consensual pvp by concord.
Incursions should be balanced with the rest of the game. Until now, they weren't.
Your logic is completely faulty. First of all, you're trying to compare oranges to watermelons. Stop trying to compare solo anom farming in null to Incurions anywhere. One is a group oriented activity and the other isnt. Secondly, nobody put a gun to your head an made you join a null sec alliance. Any risk to you or your possessions in null is something you consented to when you made the choice to live there. Dont try to use that as some kind of justification for why Incursions in high sec should pay less than you can make per hr solo in null. Simply put your reward for the risk of null sec is the freedom of null sec. And since you brought up the topic of entitlement, why does your choice to live in unsecured space somehow magically entitle you to be at the top of the isk/hr pile?As far as I know Incursions in null still pay more than incursions in high sec, and anoms in null pay far higher than missions, and null sec ore is still worth more per m3 than the ore in high sec belts. So quit calling everyone else 'entitled' when your own entitlement is obvious. As for Concord there is risk there as well... i cant tell you how many accidental friendly-fire incidents i have witnessed. And having a couple shiny dps or one of your logi get concorded can really wreck your fleet.
The bottom line is that Incursions reward you for relying on your fleetmates and making a coordinated effort to complete your objectives regardless of any theoretical or implied risks and regardless of security status. Risk is almost completely irrelevant to this particular thread. The topic being discussed is essentially, "the challenges of operating a 10-12 man fleet vs compensation after the changes". |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:47:00 -
[405] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote: I'm well-aware of bounty mechanics and you are wrong. More people means that you are running through those sites exponentially quicker.
Which does not matter to the individual pilot lol. Getting anomalies done quicker doesn't do anything for you.
Let me give you an example.: I rat with a ship and make 15 mil ticks. My buddy comes in with a ship that does less dps, we complete anoms faster, but get 12 mil each per tick. The anoms are pumping mre isk in to the game with 2 of us yes (24 mil per 20 minutes as opposed to the 15 mil I was doing solo), but MY share has decreased do to the current "even split" mechanic.
The even split mechanic punishes anom runners grouping up (unless you are the guy with the lower dps, then grouping up with a more powerful buddie allows you too bascially still isk from the other guy) unless (as I do) both ships belong to one actual person. Incursion Runners (and to a lesser extent, Mission Runners) don't even notice this because in addtion to bounties, Incursions/Missions give LP, so "running the sites faster" makes sense.
Quote:Were you aware that they would drop below lvl 4 income? Have you run incursions post nerf or are you now arguing a point without any concrete base besides what you have experienced in the past? I welcome a debate on this topic but there is simply no way that incursions are now "balanced".
Yes, i've run them post nerf, just like I did anoms post nerf. My buddies corp was working on the best way to do Assaults last night.
The problem wasn't the nerfs, it was the "less than creative people". After the anom nerf, many people with anom running alts went back to empire because their "sanctums and havens" were gone. Me, I learned to live off (pre-buff) Forsaken Hubs and Forsaken Rally points and scoffed at the idiots that ran.
Same thing here. Hell there are now new incursion videos on youtube from people who are figuring it out. Unlike people like you, who seem to have given up and who now demand CCP basicaly fix it for you.
Quote: And your mach and tengu is evidence of the risk in 0.0?
Yes, because I need a TWO THOUSAND TOON Alliance behind me to make that possible. Incursion runners fly more expensive fits than I do and have concord to prevent all but the most suicidal non-consensual pvp other than wardecs..
Quote: 5 years in 0.0 and I never came close to losing a ratting ship. Its the same as incursions: use you're head and you'll come out alright.
Yes, your head and 2000 of my closest friends lol.
|
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:26:00 -
[406] - Quote
Galerak wrote:
Your logic is completely faulty. First of all, you're trying to compare oranges to watermelons. Stop trying to compare solo anom farming in null to Incurions anywhere. One is a group oriented activity and the other isnt. Secondly, nobody put a gun to your head an made you join a null sec alliance. Any risk to you or your possessions in null is something you consented to when you made the choice to live there. Dont try to use that as some kind of justification for why Incursions in high sec should pay less than you can make per hr solo in null. Simply put your reward for the risk of null sec is the freedom of null sec. And since you brought up the topic of entitlement, why does your choice to live in unsecured space somehow magically entitle you to be at the top of the isk/hr pile?As far as I know Incursions in null still pay more than incursions in high sec, and anoms in null pay far higher than missions, and null sec ore is still worth more per m3 than the ore in high sec belts. So quit calling everyone else 'entitled' when your own entitlement is obvious. As for Concord there is risk there as well... i cant tell you how many accidental friendly-fire incidents i have witnessed. And having a couple shiny dps or one of your logi get concorded can really wreck your fleet.
The bottom line is that Incursions reward you for relying on your fleetmates and making a coordinated effort to complete your objectives regardless of any theoretical or implied risks and regardless of security status. Risk is almost completely irrelevant to this particular thread. The topic being discussed is essentially, "the challenges of operating a 10-12 man fleet vs compensation after the changes".
it's not entitlement, it's the core of this game, risk vs reward, since forever.
Galerak wrote: i cant tell you how many accidental friendly-fire incidents i have witnessed. And having a couple shiny dps or one of your logi get concorded can really wreck your fleet.
this only proves only how brainless incursion runners are, in other term, stupid. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:20:00 -
[407] - Quote
Galerak wrote:[ Any risk to you or your possessions in null is something you consented to when you made the choice to live there.
Just like lower isk making potential is what you consent to when you live in the highest security space.
This is why a mission in an 0.5 system pays more than a mission in a 1.0 system. Incursions (before now) violated this principle, the core principle of what is supposed to be a pvp-centric risk vs reward game..
It's not really different from the old "gunmining vs mining" problem CCP also just fixed (and that some people who benifiteed form the old way complained about). CCP understood that you just shouldn't have been able to mine "better" with a gun than you can with a mining laser, thus the end to drone poo. Well, a person in less risky space should accept that if they WANT more, they have to RISK more.
Quote: Dont try to use that as some kind of justification for why Incursions in high sec should pay less than you can make per hr solo in null. Simply put your reward for the risk of null sec is the freedom of null sec.
The "freedom of CTAs and hotdrops lol.
Quote: And since you brought up the topic of entitlement, why does your choice to live in unsecured space somehow magically entitle you to be at the top of the isk/hr pile?As far as I know Incursions in null still pay more than incursions in high sec, and anoms in null pay far higher than missions, and null sec ore is still worth more per m3 than the ore in high sec belts. So quit calling everyone else 'entitled' when your own entitlement is obvious.
Someone needs a dictionary. Something you EARNED (by taking it, by having to defend it) is not an entitlement.
This is what I hate about hi-sec dwellers, they don't want to go to the trouble, face the frustrations and risk as those of us who venture out from under the loving embrace of high sec, yet they still want all the goodies. It's like high sec people = the Welfare hoodrats of real life lol.
In the recent past, CCP has shown some wisdom in this regard, nerfing anomalies so that all null space isn't the same, killing gunmining so real miner can thrive, and nerfing incursions out from under the coddled minority calling itself the "Incursion Community". I just hope their bravery doesn't waver.
Sure, make incursions worthwile, but keep to the Risk vs Reward spirit of the game. |
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:58:00 -
[408] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Sure, make incursions worthwile, but keep to the Risk vs Reward spirit of the game.
You keep rambling on about risk vs reward as if there is this massively greater risk when ratting in null vs running hi-sec incursions.
null:
dead end ratting constellations with 10-20 bubbles on gates = near 0 risk, your only real risk is an awoxer. Which will be burnt as soon as it's used to tackle you.
supers running anoms in null = virtually 0 risk unless your stupid (or get awoxed) They will always align to pos as soon as they hit the anom, and anyone enters local and they warp out to safety
The only real risk is if you are jumping around loads of systems that isn't part of a bubbled dead end.
hi-sec incursions:
pub fleets = med-high risk, it's a bit pot luck, end up in a fleet with greifers or just bad pilots and you've a good chance of losing your ship
efficient inc fleets = low risk, but there is still a risk due to loads of scramming frigs and you still need to count on others who may discon etc.
Sure, leave incs as they are, nbd, but CCP please then balance out the isk vs reward side of things and spawn npc HICs in the better 0.0 anoms |
Galerak
CASCADE OF SPECTRES Comic Mischief
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:19:00 -
[409] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Galerak wrote:[ Any risk to you or your possessions in null is something you consented to when you made the choice to live there.
Just like lower isk making potential is what you consent to when you live in the highest security space. This is why a mission in an 0.5 system pays more than a mission in a 1.0 system. Incursions (before now) violated this principle, the core principle of what is supposed to be a pvp-centric risk vs reward game.. It's not really different from the old "gunmining vs mining" problem CCP also just fixed (and that some people who benifiteed form the old way complained about). CCP understood that you just shouldn't have been able to mine "better" with a gun than you can with a mining laser, thus the end to drone poo. Well, a person in less risky space should accept that if they WANT more, they have to RISK more. Quote: Dont try to use that as some kind of justification for why Incursions in high sec should pay less than you can make per hr solo in null. Simply put your reward for the risk of null sec is the freedom of null sec.
The "freedom of CTAs and hotdrops lol. Quote: And since you brought up the topic of entitlement, why does your choice to live in unsecured space somehow magically entitle you to be at the top of the isk/hr pile?As far as I know Incursions in null still pay more than incursions in high sec, and anoms in null pay far higher than missions, and null sec ore is still worth more per m3 than the ore in high sec belts. So quit calling everyone else 'entitled' when your own entitlement is obvious.
Someone needs a dictionary. Something you EARNED (by taking it, by having to defend it) is not an entitlement. This is what I hate about hi-sec dwellers, they don't want to go to the trouble, face the frustrations and risk as those of us who venture out from under the loving embrace of high sec, yet they still want all the goodies. It's like high sec people = the Welfare hoodrats of real life lol. In the recent past, CCP has shown some wisdom in this regard, nerfing anomalies so that all null space isn't the same, killing gunmining so real miner can thrive, and nerfing incursions out from under the coddled minority calling itself the "Incursion Community". I just hope their bravery doesn't waver. Sure, make incursions worthwile, but keep to the Risk vs Reward spirit of the game.
Did you even read half of what you quoted here? Risk vs Reward is why low and null sec incursions pay more than high sec. Thats not an issue. Trying to say that a ten man fleet in high sec should make less isk/hr than a solo pilot in null is just ludicrous. And yet this makes us 'entitled' cause we believe it was over-tuned a bit? Unless you have something to say related to the actual topic of the thread please stop trolling. You're only making it harder for feedback to be passed along.
|
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:19:00 -
[410] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
This goes to show the fundemental problem with the incursion "community", and why it's good CCP nerf Incursions.
The incursion people in high sec are getting something for nothing (and got so used to it that they are crying on the forums). Incursion runners (and everyone else) in low and null sec and WHs have to deal with everything the high sec runners do, but with no concord. And for what? slightly better isk per hour maybe?
How often are null sec NPCers or WH sleeper fleets Griefed from within?
Because I've already stated that there's over 250 incidents been recorded and people blacklisted for attacks against incursion runners in sites.
Also not everyone is a 23/7 player. I wasn't always as active before. I used to be part of a Null sec alliance back in the day. And I would log in and find out the fleet was 30+ jumps away I'd jump in a ship and start making my way to join in. Then get there and it's all over time to go home... And I was told that I had to be more active and be on every operation otherwise the Directors would be pissed at me... so I quit the corp. Because being a casual player I didn't want someone dictating to me when I'd be active and what I'd be doing while I was active.
Just because I don't want to belong to a nullsec alliance/corp doesn't mean I should be denied the ability to make some isk. And I'm not saying "Vanguards" were balanced. What I am arguing is that Assaults and Headquarters sites are dramatically underpaid.
But I just had the epiphany today, the reason why non of the null-bears comment on my problem of HQ and ASS sites paying out less is that when they grinded incursions, they abused the broken Vanguards and got as much isk as they could before CCP fixed it.
So when they think "Incurison runners get paid too much" they don't realise that in a headquarter fleet you'd be lucky to make 46 mill per hour. which is about 1/3 of what vanguards used to pay and still less than 1/2 of what they pay now.
Assaults and HQ's need more isk/hour.
|
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:22:00 -
[411] - Quote
TheSkeptic wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Sure, make incursions worthwile, but keep to the Risk vs Reward spirit of the game.
You keep rambling on about risk vs reward as if there is this massively greater risk when ratting in null vs running hi-sec incursions. null: dead end ratting constellations with 10-20 bubbles on gates = near 0 risk, your only real risk is an awoxer. Which will be burnt as soon as it's used to tackle you. supers running anoms in null = virtually 0 risk unless your stupid (or get awoxed) They will always align to pos as soon as they hit the anom, and anyone enters local and they warp out to safety The only real risk is if you are jumping around loads of systems that isn't part of a bubbled dead end. hi-sec incursions: pub fleets = med-high risk, it's a bit pot luck, end up in a fleet with greifers or just bad pilots and you've a good chance of losing your ship efficient inc fleets = low risk, but there is still a risk due to loads of scramming frigs and you still need to count on others who may discon etc. Sure, leave incs as they are, nbd, but CCP please then balance out the isk vs reward side of things and spawn npc HICs in the better 0.0 anoms
Hard to believe there are so many obtuse Incursion Runners, no wonder y'all can't figure out how to make the new system work for you and need ccp to hold your hands. You should be embarrased.
High Sec is the games "safe"-ish zone. By staying there instead of venturing out to less secure space where people have an easier time of killing you or forcing you to group up for self defense, you are tacitly agreeing to lower income across the board.
In order to be "safe"-ish in null tkaes a massive effort by a lot of people (with a lot of other people trying to make you unsafe). part of that effort is joining a corp, making frineds, joining an alliances, following someone else rules, fighting against others ect. You don't have to really do ANY of that in high sec or high sec incursions (or just about any other activity in high sec).
CCP should put it's foot down and continue to say "you want better, go forth into the wilderness". Even as they stand right now, High sec incursions are wrong for this kind of game. I enjoy them, the game needed group pve content, but that doesn't make them any less wrong.
I accept that many people are too weak willed (even in a video game) to put real effort into something, but I really wish CCP would stop handing them more stuff for them to get spolied by, even if ccp is trying to stay in business.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:31:00 -
[412] - Quote
Galerak wrote: Trying to say that a ten man fleet in high sec should make less isk/hr than a solo pilot in null is just ludicrous.
And who escatly is saying that? I'm saying the individuals in that 10 man fleet shooting npcs should make less isk per hour than an individual shooting npcs in space not protected by CONCORD. 1 guy should make more than 10 people lol.
The solo pilot in null either went out there on his own and is squatting, or joined a corp/alliance that holds space. Why should 10 random people in HIGH SEC make more isk/hr than hundreds of people who have to stop ratting to defend their space?
Quote: And yet this makes us 'entitled' cause we believe it was over-tuned a bit?
Yes, because at the core of it, you think people in "coddled space" should make comparable isk/hr as people who worked for their income ("worked" meaning jumping through all the hoops you have to to get to null/low/WH space in the 1st place). High Sec Incursions are Welfare for eve players lol.
Quote: Unless you have something to say related to the actual topic of the thread please stop trolling. You're only making it harder for feedback to be passed along.
Boo Hoo, I pay my subs like you do, I will continue to speak out against the stupidity that is high sec entitlement (in this case incursions). Let people play in high sec, no skin off my back (and the economy needs high sec players, to build stuff for people like me to blow up), but I wish they'd understand that they can't have everything, low/null/WHs are also vital to this game.
|
Galerak
CASCADE OF SPECTRES Comic Mischief
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:01:00 -
[413] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: In order to be "safe"-ish in null tkaes a massive effort by a lot of people (with a lot of other people trying to make you unsafe). part of that effort is joining a corp, making frineds, joining an alliances, following someone else rules, fighting against others ect. You don't have to really do ANY of that in high sec or high sec incursions (or just about any other activity in high sec).
CCP should put it's foot down and continue to say "you want better, go forth into the wilderness". Even as they stand right now, High sec incursions are wrong for this kind of game. I enjoy them, the game needed group pve content, but that doesn't make them any less wrong.
I accept that many people are too weak willed (even in a video game) to put real effort into something, but I really wish CCP would stop handing them more stuff for them to get spolied by, even if ccp is trying to stay in business.
For high sec incusions, those fleets you're whining about making more isk than you, those are the guys, that either joined a corp JUST for incursions, or developed a solid reputation in the community and worked their way into an incursion network like BTL, DTM, SAQD, ISN etc. ALL of which work hard at protecting their fleets without outside support, which means having rules to follow, keeping a blacklist, and always having the eye out for those griefers. And the sad thing is you act like you cant BOTH live in null and run high sec incursions. I did that with jump clones for a long time before i decided i was sick of CTAs and pos bashes. Pretty much the only thing holding sov garuntees you is the right to shoot anyone for any reason. Trying to imply that also entitles you to make more isk than anyone else regardless of conditions is about as 'entitled' as it gets. I can promise you that every member of an incursion fleet works harder for that isk than you do in null. Running incursions is way harder than any pve i ever did in null, and i will even go so far as to say that flying 9 2-5bil isk ships in high sec is a hell of a lot more of a risk to fly than a 60-70mil isk bc in null. I think it's fairly obvious that you hate living in null and just want everyone else to be as miserable as you are. |
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:14:00 -
[414] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: In order to be "safe"-ish in null tkaes a massive effort by a lot of people (with a lot of other people trying to make you unsafe). part of that effort is joining a corp, making frineds, joining an alliances, following someone else rules, fighting against others ect. You don't have to really do ANY of that in high sec or high sec incursions (or just about any other activity in high sec).
Or a dead end pocket, 2 accounts, 1 tower and about 10 anchorable bubbles.
Your argument is totally flawed, not sure you even read my post before sperging your reply. I don't really care about the incursions, I'd like to see a better balance of the risk vs reward you speak of especially in null.
Anyone who argues there is no risk with running hi-sec incs obviously doesn't run them... Sure with a competent group there is less risk, just like you say about how you believe you make null safer. You need to build a network of friends in order to make it safer. But it's PvE risk, not PvP risk. Unlike null where the PvE is low risk, it's PvP you need to be careful of.
The risk is still there, just a different aggressor.
|
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
179
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:18:00 -
[415] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:We will be monitoring the feedback and looking at the stats over the next couple of months, comparing them to the stats we had pre-escalation, to see how things look once everyone has settled into the new changes.
In other words you will do a post mortem after you'vekilled an entire community. Unintentional bug Working as IntendedGäó...-á-á http://i.imgur.com/aYOL1.jpg
|
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
179
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:20:00 -
[416] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:RabbidFerret wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote: Also for those that think the AI for the Incursion NPC's is easily beaten... it's not. They do rapid target switches and alpha strikes. we had several close calls and even lost ships because they would spread fire throughout the groups then suddenly focus fire on one ship. The logi's would struggle to get reps, because they are cycling off of the previous targets.
It's a pretty daily occurring to watch someone drop into or near armor on shield fleets. Perhaps not for a perfect fleet, but common fleets often feel the pressure of listening to your logis overheat on a BS. It's often the skill of the pilots around you that keep the fleet from chaos. A few days before the nerf we had a node drop. Half of our fleet DCed during an OTA. Luckily, 2 basis stayed online. We had them close to burning out all of their mods but they managed to save the fleet. After 8 years of playing Eve, I have never relied so heavily on the skill and aptitude of another player. That was a moment of sheer camaraderie among complete strangers; an example of why CCP should model more of it's mechanics around Incursions. xVx dreadnaught wrote: But I find the Incursions more enjoyable.
This. I feel bad for you, need 8 years to get to play real eve. time to get out of HS?? Go **** yourself Unintentional bug Working as IntendedGäó...-á-á http://i.imgur.com/aYOL1.jpg
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:33:00 -
[417] - Quote
TheSkeptic wrote: Or a dead end pocket, 2 accounts, 1 tower and about 10 anchorable bubbles.
And if you don't own the space, it will last until the actuall owners show up and drop dreads on it. In order to keep it, you need an alliance level commitment behind you. That means fighting, losing ships, putting up with ego manic FCs and CEOs, trying to figure out jabber and TS ect ect. No one gives it to you, you have to go take it.
Know what I had to do to get into incursions? Buy a Nightmare and fit it, then link fit in incursion chat when my buddy is asleep lol.
Quote: Your argument is totally flawed, not sure you even read my post before sperging your reply.
I read it, found it lacking.
Quote: I don't really care about the incursions, I'd like to see a better balance of the risk vs reward you speak of especially in null.
The risk I deal with is Goons coming to take it all away...or one guy in a cloaky ship just sitting there lol.
Quote: Anyone who argues there is no risk with running hi-sec incs obviously doesn't run them... Sure with a competent group there is less risk, just like you say about how you believe you make null safer. You need to build a network of friends in order to make it safer. But it's PvE risk, not PvP risk. Unlike null where the PvE is low risk, it's PvP you need to be careful of.
And eve is a pvp game.....
In low/null/WH space, you risk PVP AND PVE risks (like scramming frigs and that damn super torp in a few of the 10/10s), where as in high sec, the pvp risk is lessened by concord. Why people like you think that a place with half the risk (high sec) should be as profitiable as places with BOTH types of risk is beyond understanding for me.
I will never get high sec players. It's obvious to most peopel I think that in a game with a safe zone and then less safe zones, more "adventure" or in our case, isk) would be the further away from safety. But high sec players feel like it's somehow proper to have good profitable content in a place where non-consensual pvp risk is lessened? I imagine high sec players eat a lot of burger king because they love to "have it their way" lol. |
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:27:00 -
[418] - Quote
rofl |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
230
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:02:00 -
[419] - Quote
|
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:37:00 -
[420] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:And eve is a pvp game.....
No, it isn't. It's a sandbox. Nothing more, nothing less.
You don't go on a garry's mod server and ***** about people building stuff instead of shooting each other, do you? Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if youit strapped a beehive to Robocop.-Kale Eledar |
|
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
231
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:59:00 -
[421] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:And eve is a pvp game..... No, it isn't. It's a sandbox. Nothing more, nothing less. You don't go on a garry's mod server and ***** about people building stuff instead of shooting each other, do you?
No, its a pvp game.
Pvp is not limited to shooting stuff. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
125
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:19:00 -
[422] - Quote
I think the multi boxers where the final nail in the coffin for incursions. |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
231
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:56:00 -
[423] - Quote
No one cares about people multiboxing, especially not CCP. |
xVx dreadnaught
The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:37:00 -
[424] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:I think the multi boxers where the final nail in the coffin for incursions.
Multiboxers can still do incursions... There's one guy with a fleet of Tengu that does rather well at them. I don't think he does OTA's but even if he takes 10-15 mins a site... he's getting all the isk for each site. That would work out about 400-450 mill per hour. |
Leeloo Alizee
Orion Constellation Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 11:09:00 -
[425] - Quote
Njurg, Njurg bla bla truc truc cry
Good, no more greed in incursion, now fun fleets starts. New player, t1 BS or something similar with T2 it had noooooo chance to get into fleet, or to get in to so called "fail fleet" or "kitchen sink fleet" and all they were able to do, is to assist and "help" legion leet to do site faster.
Now that new players are geting somwhere, in fleet and learning, and geting some isk, and legion "uber buber shiny blitz super extra" fleet is disbound.
More fun, more time to do site, less payment..... all ok
What i personaly dont like, is sansha cheating. Example: Oneiros logi pilot, hi grade halo set (omega included) with perfect OGB (signature radius with all bonuses 35m) orbiting with speed of 600m/sec with 1600 plate with resist 90/85/94/80 armor tanking elite certificates, going deep into armor with 2 strikes, even before it is posible to switch repers from other logis. Not going to mentioned if he gets webbed. that is panic.
Problem is, that cruiser with cruiser size plate WILL INSTAPOP before repers finish their cycle.
UNEXEPTABLE CCP
Dont care what are you going to do, but this cant stand here, cruiser is biggest logi ship that can enter site, fix incoming damage on cruisers, or make tier 4 BC with logi abilitis, or even BS or F urself
Best regards
Leeloo Alizee |
Katy Ling
Crimnson Concept Flame Flaming Nebula
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:06:00 -
[426] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Just an update, I am reading through all this feedback and we will be making a more detailed post next week about our own findings. I have also had some really valuable feedback, both while the changes were on SISI and now they are on TQ, from the owner and co-owner of BTL pub and other long-term Incursion runners. I have even run Incursions on SISI with them to see how they felt about the changes live.
I don't have anything concrete to tell you right now, but I just wanted to make an update post to let you all know I am still reading this and we do care!
I fully understand that a lot of you are angry but if we could all try and aim for constructive feedback from now on, it will help quicken this process a lot. ''I HATE IT ALL!! YOU SUCK'' <-- an example of a post that isn't going to help.
To dispel any myths - The changes on SISI and TQ were exactly the same, this isn't even up for debate as it's just a fact and it's just how our development process works.
well, i wonder if you tryed to get an alt and actually try to run them on the live server ? in both shield and armour fleet ? during a normal day of the week ? (less people available)
right now, vanguards are considerably hard (riskier) because of the extra incoming DPS, so you need a full grid of 3 logis and 7-8 DPs (-10% payout if you run with 8, on top of -10% nerf) , when before, was doable with 2 logis and 4-6 DPS (but not advisable due to possible disconnections)
so, lots of times you can't pull enough members to even run a fleet , not even trying to get ppl from BTL and TDF and other channels, because most people are simply not up to put with the increased risk vs long time waiting to get full fleet members.
when you get a bunch of people to go on the test server, it seems doable ... but when you test on the real server, waiting the hole day to have a fleet moving and you don't get enough people, you realise that you might as well not waste you're time waiting for a fleet that is not gonna roll and next day, you don't even bother x'xing up ...
simply put ... you did not took in consideration the time people take to have 10 people to fly a fleet. wile before, you could run with 2 logis, now you need 3 minimum, and if 1 pilot leaves, the fleet will be unable to run, which will might take minutes to hours, and when people spend hours waiting and the fleet does not run, people don't bother x-xing up after a couple days like that.
|
Herr Ronin
Malum Crusis
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:10:00 -
[427] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:I think the multi boxers where the final nail in the coffin for incursions.
Dual box with IS Boxer and you will make more than enough to keep you happy, But this is a interesting point, This might be the new dawn of dual/triple boxing, Somthing i don't want to see imo. Management Of ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
182
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 06:52:00 -
[428] - Quote
Katy Ling wrote:[quote=CCP Affinity]Just an update, I am reading through all this feedback and we will be making a more detailed post next week about our own findings. I have also had some really valuable feedback, both while the changes were on SISI and now they are on TQ, from the owner and co-owner of BTL pub and other long-term Incursion runners. I have even run Incursions on SISI with them to see how they felt about the changes live.
I don't have anything concrete to tell you right now, but I just wanted to make an update post to let you all know I am still reading this and we do care!
I fully understand that a lot of you are angry but if we could all try and aim for constructive feedback from now on, it will help quicken this process a lot. ''I HATE IT ALL!! YOU SUCK'' <-- an example of a post that isn't going to help.
To dispel any myths - The changes on SISI and TQ were exactly the same, this isn't even up for debate as it's just a fact and it's just how our development process works.
Where is this quote from? Has a single real armor veteran been questioned? BTL is only a shield chaanel for all intensive purposes. What TDF council member was consulted? Unintentional bug Working as IntendedGäó...-á-á http://i.imgur.com/aYOL1.jpg
|
Devore Sekk
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:57:00 -
[429] - Quote
RabbidFerret wrote:A few days before the nerf we had a node drop. Half of our fleet DCed during an OTA. Luckily, 2 basis stayed online. We had them close to burning out all of their mods but they managed to save the fleet. After 8 years of playing Eve, I have never relied so heavily on the skill and aptitude of another player. That was a moment of sheer camaraderie among complete strangers; an example of why CCP should model more of it's mechanics around Incursions.
And despite half the fleet dropping, you still completed the site. Now THAT'S risk! CCP, please make more content which can be massively overpowered and still provide great income.
Ok, so so far the risks to incursions are:
- war decks and suicide gankers - logi pilots falling asleep and your shiny faction BS not getting reps in time - half the fleet DCing
This IS very much a conversation about risks, and don't try to turn it around. Everything in EVE is about risk/reward. |
Janoun
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 10:14:00 -
[430] - Quote
Leeloo Alizee wrote:Problem is, that cruiser with cruiser size plate WILL INSTAPOP before repers finish their cycle.
UNEXEPTABLE CCP
Dont care what are you going to do, but this cant stand here, cruiser is biggest logi ship that can enter site, fix incoming damage on cruisers, or make tier 4 BC with logi abilitis, or even BS or F urself
I agree, It's completely unexeptable |
|
Herr Ronin
ISN - Management ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:26:00 -
[431] - Quote
xVx dreadnaught wrote:Kara Books wrote:I think the multi boxers where the final nail in the coffin for incursions. Multiboxers can still do incursions... There's one guy with a fleet of Tengu that does rather well at them. I don't think he does OTA's but even if he takes 10-15 mins a site... he's getting all the isk for each site. That would work out about 400-450 mill per hour.
If i recall thats Dingodan, He's a funny guy, Full Nightmare's and RR Tengu's, He is very good with the IS Boxer etc, The amount of Isk he was racking in Pre Patch was crazy. Management Of ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
|
Herr Ronin
ISN - Management ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:28:00 -
[432] - Quote
Devore Sekk wrote:RabbidFerret wrote:A few days before the nerf we had a node drop. Half of our fleet DCed during an OTA. Luckily, 2 basis stayed online. We had them close to burning out all of their mods but they managed to save the fleet. After 8 years of playing Eve, I have never relied so heavily on the skill and aptitude of another player. That was a moment of sheer camaraderie among complete strangers; an example of why CCP should model more of it's mechanics around Incursions. And despite half the fleet dropping, you still completed the site. Now THAT'S risk! CCP, please make more content which can be massively overpowered and still provide great income. Ok, so so far the risks to incursions are: - war decks and suicide gankers - logi pilots falling asleep and your shiny faction BS not getting reps in time - half the fleet DCing This IS very much a conversation about risks, and don't try to turn it around. Everything in EVE is about risk/reward.
There is a reason why you run with communitys and not Public fleets, Regarding the isk issue at this minute, There is not a problem for the high end communitys, They are earning 100 mill per hour roughly, However the problem at this time is the public fleets.
But seriously, Join a decent community, It isn't CCP's fault if you didn't do research on the current FC. Management Of ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
|
Herr Ronin
ISN - Management ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:35:00 -
[433] - Quote
Katy Ling wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:Just an update, I am reading through all this feedback and we will be making a more detailed post next week about our own findings. I have also had some really valuable feedback, both while the changes were on SISI and now they are on TQ, from the owner and co-owner of BTL pub and other long-term Incursion runners. I have even run Incursions on SISI with them to see how they felt about the changes live.
I don't have anything concrete to tell you right now, but I just wanted to make an update post to let you all know I am still reading this and we do care!
I fully understand that a lot of you are angry but if we could all try and aim for constructive feedback from now on, it will help quicken this process a lot. ''I HATE IT ALL!! YOU SUCK'' <-- an example of a post that isn't going to help.
To dispel any myths - The changes on SISI and TQ were exactly the same, this isn't even up for debate as it's just a fact and it's just how our development process works. well, i wonder if you tryed to get an alt and actually try to run them on the live server ? in both shield and armour fleet ? during a normal day of the week ? (less people available) right now, vanguards are considerably hard (riskier) because of the extra incoming DPS, so you need a full grid of 3 logis and 7-8 DPs (-10% payout if you run with 8, on top of -10% nerf) , when before, was doable with 2 logis and 4-6 DPS (but not advisable due to possible disconnections) so, lots of times you can't pull enough members to even run a fleet , not even trying to get ppl from BTL and TDF and other channels, because most people are simply not up to put with the increased risk vs long time waiting to get full fleet members. when you get a bunch of people to go on the test server, it seems doable ... but when you test on the real server, waiting the hole day to have a fleet moving and you don't get enough people, you realise that you might as well not waste you're time waiting for a fleet that is not gonna roll and next day, you don't even bother x'xing up ... simply put ... you did not took in consideration the time people take to have 10 people to fly a fleet. wile before, you could run with 2 logis, now you need 3 minimum, and if 1 pilot leaves, the fleet will be unable to run, which will might take minutes to hours, and when people spend hours waiting and the fleet does not run, people don't bother x-xing up after a couple days like that.
Why are you even posting that when you lack the information before hand, Vanguards have less incoming dps than they did Pre-Patch, Due to there is no Triggers, So no DDD, Duh... The other thing is like i said again, Join a decent community, Is it CCP's fault that you join the worst fleet in Incursion History, No it isn't.
I just cannot simply understand why this is even up for debate, Have you heard of a Off Grid Booster, You know, The thing that gives you some love, For future reference please use the correct fleet comp and use known pilots, Join a community that is trust worthy and get a group of people you trust.
Vanguard is easly done with 2 logi and 10 dps, ISN runs 12 on grid for many reasons, Just make sure you do some research on the FC and check the Logistic's, We have been testing the new site's and they are not that bad, All my tank is on my Vindi is a Pith C type Inv, and a damage control, No LSE or rig's, This is the wonder of a Off Grid Booster.
Invest in the correct fleet comp instead of idiots hitting F1. Management Of ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
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Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:51:00 -
[434] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:I think the multi boxers where the final nail in the coffin for incursions.
Multi-boxers just means more income and customer base stats for CCP, any way you cut it. |
Herr Ronin
ISN - Management ISN - Incursion Shiny Network
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 13:31:00 -
[435] - Quote
Katja Faith wrote:Kara Books wrote:I think the multi boxers where the final nail in the coffin for incursions. Multi-boxers just means more income and customer base stats for CCP, any way you cut it.
Yup, All comes down to the Numbers in the End. | Management Of ISN | Skype: Herr-Ronin | Twitter: @Herr_Ronin |
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Tierere
The Corporation of Noble Sentiments Sleeper Social Club
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:02:00 -
[436] - Quote
RIP incursions |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
159
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:56:00 -
[437] - Quote
Saw an Armageddon get popped in an OTA last night and almost lost a pimped out tanked Mach. On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
188
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:59:00 -
[438] - Quote
I have trouble with the words balanced & Incursions when I see near 100% OTA's in Khanid & SIB Vanguards and 100% NCN's in Assaults CCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 23:23:00 -
[439] - Quote
Just trying to gather the new issues here, just quote and put the problem that actually makes it difficult and too the point, probably have to go back to the tactics we used in the starter days of the incursions. Damage is too high for logistics even with 100k ehp ships? |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 12:55:00 -
[440] - Quote
Yesterday I've checked all vanguard systems in 2 incursions (Sib and Wyll), visited every site I could find and found only *one* vanguard fleet in action (40k people online at that moment). I couldn't believe this and re-checked Sib vanguards (shield community focus constellation) - with same result. Only 10 people out of 40k. Plus maybe 1-2 fleets for armor community (didn't check that constellation).
CCP literally killed vanguards farm. I've seen such "balance" before in real life. It's called "graveyard". How about revert all changes a.k.a. "damage"? |
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yugi272
F---ing Nublets Broken Toys
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:08:00 -
[441] - Quote
Since this is beeing such a pain for null/low sec farmers, who QQ the most here, my constructive feedback would be to make incursions as someone mentioned oriented in such a way when the incursions land in a random factions space they either "assimilate" those factions workers or just make sansha "cooperate" with the local faction (gurista, serpentis, angel and so on). It would add diversity for pilots and the blitzing would definitly be stoped as you would constantly have to fit your ship differently. As things are now incursions are just gonna die off, and as someone mentioned i did all the sites and one thing stands out
OTA's are IMPOSSIBLE to do with any normal fleet with 3 logis without the booster and at half influence or more :/ As a logi pilot we almost lost a pimped out mach, in assaults a logi poped in assaults also cause of pilot error, i also poped cause the high dps in nmc from the romi was just too much for a logi pilot to take... I for one still didn't recover from that loss, but it doesnt matter i still run a few incursions when i can. But all in all they are just not worth the time/isk invested into them... hence i moved to do other things in eve, whoever said ratting/anomaly in low/null is "very risky" they were dead wrong, it's easier then incursions and pays almost the same if not more. QQ nerf anoms/rats in null/low |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians The Aurora Shadow
994
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 00:02:00 -
[442] - Quote
yugi272 wrote: OTA's are IMPOSSIBLE to do with any normal fleet with 3 logis without the booster and at half influence or more :/ As a logi pilot we almost lost a pimped out mach, in assaults a logi poped in assaults also cause of pilot error, i also poped cause the high dps in nmc from the romi was just too much for a logi pilot to take... I for one still didn't recover from that loss, but it doesnt matter i still run a few incursions when i can. But all in all they are just not worth the time/isk invested into them... hence i moved to do other things in eve, whoever said ratting/anomaly in low/null is "very risky" they were dead wrong, it's easier then incursions and pays almost the same if not more. QQ nerf anoms/rats in null/low
Did you hack the OTA? Obviously not quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
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yugi272
F---ing Nublets Broken Toys
0
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Posted - 2012.05.14 05:49:00 -
[443] - Quote
yes we hacked it :/ it gets easier but still hard as hell :/ very hard for a random fleet :( |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2012.05.27 18:21:00 -
[444] - Quote
gfldex wrote:xVx dreadnaught wrote:And those don't require me to buddy up with 9 other players in order to make my income. But I thought folk are running incursions for the fun and social experience? Don't say it was just all about the money!
A telling point.
Since Null Alliances seek to occupy territory for the "fun and social experience" as well, I think tech moons should be placed EVERYWHERE today!
Oh. Yeah. You are just a mouthy punk. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2012.05.27 18:29:00 -
[445] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Simple nerf for incursions would have been to drop sec status below 0.5 to at least form some story of Concord losing control. Sadly EVE is cloning WOW and pvp is now optional. The ground breaking days of eve dies with incursions and now it's all grind and spiders... I mean space ships.
As we can see, where I am not watching and insulting them, the Goon runs around pretending to be a "helpful player" while lying wildly.
Oh yes, Incursions can be run in expensive ships in 0.4 where a Titan Blob can be CYNO'd on you at every entrance.
To say nothing of Gank Fleets entering WHILE YOU ARE RUNNING THE SITES and already in combat.
And then they target the Logi's instead of the tank ships.
1/5 the fleet strength could grief Incursion runners and their really isn't anything they can do about it.
Needless to say, the Titan Blob at the entrance to the site may also be a problem.
Nobody would run it except people with Null Sec blobs backing them, and probably not even them.
AS THE ABOVE POSTER WELL KNOWS. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2012.05.27 18:35:00 -
[446] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS
Adapt or die
Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons.
Actually vgs are not really that much harder. They just need more time to get cleared. How is it harder to watch npcs explode longer? If they would have increased npc damage or reduced our tanks, but keep the maximum possible isk the same (minus those 10%), than I could agree that its harder. But that is not what they changed, they just make us now shoot longer on rats. Still you are right, adapt or die is the call and people already starting to adapt. Assaults are the new vgs. And vanguards are the new scouts.
Except they don't pay as well as Lvl 4's either!
I prefer "not dealing with Null Vermin and unsubscribing".
Where does that put me, Null Bear? |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2012.05.27 18:42:00 -
[447] - Quote
drdxie wrote:Aryana Ucksth wrote:C'mon CCP, the changes on Singularity were perfect, all you needed to do on top of that was reduce the payouts for nullsec to like 80%, reduce hisec to 50%, and leave lowsec at 100%. Sites would have been balanced at around 100m/hr for lowsec, armor vanguards and shield assaults could both run, and it would encourage hisec (no risk) runners and nullsec (no risk in friendly space) runners to come play in lowsec! It would have been fun!
Now nobody is going to run incursions with me anymore :( This made me chuckle.... the null bears wanted the change, but now that it impacts them.. they come out whining..
Only High Sec income is to be nerfed.
And non-PC Null Sec, of course.\
They themselves whine like little girls if they don't make money in complete safety.
Just start a thread about removing Local and watch the whining.
Or read a thread about "AFK Cloakers" shutting down whole systems. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2012.05.27 18:49:00 -
[448] - Quote
Comy 1 wrote:There are these nifty areas of null sec you can't take sov in. Rumors say the systems are NPC controlled and anyone can dock in the stations.
If it's a small tight group you want to roll with, why not take said group to one of those areas?
Which is why the Drone Regions were nerfed.
A good point though, Null Bear. I mean as in "Note to Null Bear, Must Nerf all non-PC Controlled Null". |
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