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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:10:00 -
[61]
ARRGGGGG
NPC HAVE NEVER BEEN INVULNERABLE TO ECM!!!
sigh..
All the e-war works on npc, you can jam a sleeper quite easily. even nos and neuts have a affect on NPC, yes they have infinite cap. that doesn't mean that nos and neut don't have an affect on them. People have been assuming that because they have infinite cap that nos doesn't work on them.
People have assumed that because you can't defend against a Gurista jamming you that the reverse is true. It is not, you can jam a NPC and make it stop attacking.
I did a test and used a drone boat with heavy drones. I used 4 ecm drones, and 1 ogre II against 3 sleeper frigates.
I put 2 ecm drones on each of two two sleepers, and then killed the last frigate with the remaining drone and medium guns. then recalled 2 ecm drones and launched 2 more ogre and killed the second, then wasted the third.
I was using mostly T2 modules and T1 rigs in a T1 ship. It was initially touch and go on the tanking but pulled through fine once 2 frigates where under ECM.
This was a lower end encounter.
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Kim Telkin
Caldari Kingfisher Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:11:00 -
[62]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Kim Telkin One question: Will they run away?!...
Not Yet, it is something that has been discussed and we have some paper napkin drawings of how it would work. nothing concrete yet.
Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll swap that scrambler for an ECM mod or such. Still looking forwards to this (:
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Zothike
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:15:00 -
[63]
how much (let say in %) does the sleeper overall strenght will be nerfer for the final tranquility realease ?
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King Hopy
Interstellar eXodus Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:16:00 -
[64]
People stop whining until you try them. Wormhole space is not supposed to be so that you can solo in it or farm it. If you take losses to complete the sites it will be compensated in the reward (unless others are more clever and dont take losses).
Also as has been said you can ECM rats as it is. You can also neut them, it doesn't empty their cap but it makes them repair less.
Don't try to make CCP turn wormhole space into another carebearland with no risk. If you dont like the rist involved guess what.. you dont need to enter w-space.
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:16:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Kim Telkin
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Kim Telkin One question: Will they run away?!...
Not Yet, it is something that has been discussed and we have some paper napkin drawings of how it would work. nothing concrete yet.
Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll swap that scrambler for an ECM mod or such. Still looking forwards to this (:
No problem. Also if you get on sisi join the channel 'wormholes' and a GM/QA will spawn a wormhole for you to play in. As have been brought up there is some bugs in the new scanner code and until then the wormholes channel is your way to get into testing them.
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:18:00 -
[66]
Like I said above.
Join 'Wormholes' on sisi and a GM/ QA will move you to wormhole space.
Also be aware there is a pending bug fix for part of the drone problem. the drones where generating double the threat they should have been so the NPC where seeing them as the most desirable target.
Should be patched this week on sisi.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:19:00 -
[67]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 23/02/2009 16:20:16 Even if they don't run away....can I still use a Warp Scram to shut off their MWD?
I haven't seen this one covered yet.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:20:00 -
[68]
Originally by: CCP Incognito It applies to AI also, we can build a AI that we can't beat, but a group of players will come in, think of something we didn't and turn it into a farming site.
Something just came into mind.
If the hardest encounters require caps to do, they'll be insanely rewarding. They'll have to, as putting ships like that inside a space that could be cut off any time from friendly space is dangerous.
But once inside, those sites can be be farmed 24/7, once you know how to do them, and if you don't need to get out. And it would be relatively easy to get the goods out with a few blockade runners.
So, is there not a huge risk that those sites would become paradises for isk-farmers, like some 10/10 complexes in the south?
And speaking of those, you have to be aware by now that a certain alliance is doing RMT on a industrial scale. Why haven't you put a stop to it yet? ------------------------------------------
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Aganola
Amarr Ten Below Zero
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:22:00 -
[69]
Ok...
I've read again and I would like to point out a few things that I think are flawed in logic...
1: "One of goals we have worked towards is making PvE combat more like PvP combat."
- IMHO there is a reason why PVP is PVP and PVE is PVE... Diffenrent skills, different level of combat tactics... making PVE harder will eventually suck out a lot of peps from PVP because there will be "more loot, same effort"...
2: "First, new players get a taste of what PvP is like while still doing PvE encounters."
--If the NPC hardening happens this will render FW useless since the danger is the same minus the PVP part...
3: "which means that when the victi... um, player gets jumped by another player he has a fitting that will allow him to fight back effectively, or at least run away."
-- He/She will already have his/her hands full in keeping the PVE in bay... this will only be helpful, if the NPCs would switch to the intruder too in a "why don't you let us dish it out alone" kind of menthality...
4: "This means that NPCs will take longer to arrive at orbit distance, but they will have a high transversal velocity the whole way in. It also looks bloody cool!"
-- No it doesn't (look cool)!
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:26:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Aganola ... -- He/She will already have his/her hands full in keeping the PVE in bay... this will only be helpful, if the NPCs would switch to the intruder too in a "why don't you let us dish it out alone" kind of menthality...
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Alora Venoda
GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:37:00 -
[71]
ok so if these encounters are supposed to be like PvP... which PvP would that be exactly?
1. 10 ships to gank a single hauler at a gatecamp... no 2. call in a bigger blob and/or capship hotdrop when your gang attacks them... no 3. run away when they don't have 100% chance of victory... not likely 4. use baiting, logon traps, scouts, etc to setup an ambush... not likely 5. gank or sniper setups with no tank... doesn't sound like it 6. etc...
my point is that PvP in EVE is almost always more like sharks vs minnows rather than dog vs dog. so you need to qualify the statement with something like "They will be more like fighting players in terms of weapons and combat tactics such as switching targets, logistics, etc."
on another note... with the introduction of a threat mechanic, we will be needing some ways to "pull threat off of other party fleet members" and also to drop aggro, etc... otherwise everyone in the fleet will need to sport hefty tanks, which is not usually the case in PvP. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Fergus Runkle
Minmatar Truth and Reconciliation Council
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:39:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Fergus Runkle on 23/02/2009 16:40:23
Originally by: CCP Incognito ARRGGGGG
NPC HAVE NEVER BEEN INVULNERABLE TO ECM!!!
sigh..
Erm, are you sure ? I thought all officers were immune to all forms of e-war? and though you may be technically correct in saying that npc's have never been invunerable to ECM, practically do the npc's not have insanely high sensor strengths ? on the order of a couple of hundred ? sure it maybe possible to jam them, in reality its quite different.
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:42:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Fergus Runkle Edited by: Fergus Runkle on 23/02/2009 16:40:23
Originally by: CCP Incognito ARRGGGGG
NPC HAVE NEVER BEEN INVULNERABLE TO ECM!!!
sigh..
Erm, are you sure ? I thought all officers were immune to all forms of e-war? and though you may be technically correct in saying that npc's have never been invunerable to ECM, practically do the npc's not have insanely high sensor strengths ? on the order of a couple of hundred ? sure it maybe possible to jam them, in reality its quite different.
Officers may have sensor strength that high, but generally your run of the mill npc has the same sensor strength as a T1 ship.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:43:00 -
[74]
Originally by: CCP Incognito ARRGGGGG
NPC HAVE NEVER BEEN INVULNERABLE TO ECM!!!
sigh..
In the current game they more or less are due to sheer numbers. Not much point in jamming a couple NPC's when you've got 30 of them attacking you.
It's a mindset, give it time to change.
Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:44:00 -
[75]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Siobhan Ni If you really want to make the encounters more like pvp then have the sleepers smack talk in local and ransom you pod
Sorry I tried really really hard but design would not let me make sleeper pod players :(
intresting since they target my pod and warp scrambled and webbed it .....
also we just had a small 20 man fleet go out to take on a pocket and we all died... even with 6 logistic at the helm doing a good job until they dropped 20 frig and cruiser and pretty much we lasted almost 2 minutes _ with every single enemy warp scrambling, webbing and insta killing.
do you not think the aplha on these is just a little strong, that 6 logistics aiding a mega being shot by these lots was able to die?
there is a fleet being forumed after SISI current downtime to actually take on the complex which is located with inside 2 wormholes here
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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Mrs Snowman
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:49:00 -
[76]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
In short if you try to use the same-old same-old tactics against sleepers then you will have problems. Think out of the box and you will win.
Yes, I think your message here is loud and clear sir! However I put it to you that these tactics in noway what so ever resemble pvp.
Just thought I'd point that out to you.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:00:00 -
[77]
Actually, we've been pretty successful with Sniper setups so far.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:00:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Armoured C intresting since they target my pod and warp scrambled and webbed it .....
They also scrammed a wreck. So...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:04:00 -
[79]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Armoured C intresting since they target my pod and warp scrambled and webbed it .....
They also scrammed a wreck. So...
AI where is it ?
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:26:00 -
[80]
let us not forget the truly important thing about this new AI. we know exactly whom to express our feelings on the subject come the next party at the top of the world
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Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:30:00 -
[81]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
IE they have unlimited cap, but you can still paint them, ECM, warp scramble, and web them.
This is the biggest unbalance, and as long as this exists, it will be death to a PvP feel. The ability to nute or nos your target and keep them from being able to retaliate is a major tactic and if pirates and rats can do it, I damn sure want to be able to return the favor.
DL The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out! |
Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:40:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CCP Incognito ARRGGGGG
NPC HAVE NEVER BEEN INVULNERABLE TO ECM!!!
sigh..
Don't worry, there are a few of us players who know that.
The reason you don't use ECM on K-Space rats isn't because it doesn't work. It is because they spawn in such large numbers that it is pointless. Why bother fitting an ECM module to take out a single rat, when you can fit a hardener to reduce the damage from the remaining 20.
Now if Sleepers are balanced closer to a 1v1 relationship with players instead of the 1v30 ratio that you can easily handle with K-Space rats, then fitting ECM will become a more useful tactic.
However, if Sleepers are still balanced so that they vastly out number the players that are supposed to engage them, then ECM will remain impractical.
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oh moma
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:42:00 -
[83]
aldo the ideeas of new things in eve are generaly to improve the gameplay i must say this: the game is geting so boring. Most of my friends (that used to play eve for years) quited the game. i see myself geting in the same situation. imo eve universe needs a system expansion at least 3 times the current one. it's to crowded.it's cool that u want to make pve guys taste pvp action at some level but remember this: at some point even pvp players like to chill out and do a full pve simpleminded action. just my 2 cents.
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Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:46:00 -
[84]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Officers may have sensor strength that high, but generally your run of the mill npc has the same sensor strength as a T1 ship.
I call BS on this, there are several missions, (blockade lvl 4 for one) where I have been targeted by frigates at over 350k (i don't know of any t1 frigates that can target at that range since they aren't being remote boosted currently) and a dual range boosted domi cant target past 200k. There needs to be a extensive re-evaluation of what you at CCP feels is normal and what is ACTUALLY possible. until these perception differences are corrected, you will be creating ships that can not be countered.
DL
DL The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out! |
Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:47:00 -
[85]
A question regarding the Sleepers: are their attributes going to be listed in the data dump, or should we expect them to be excluded to keep their capablities unknown?
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:48:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr I call BS on this, there are several missions, (blockade lvl 4 for one) where I have been targeted by frigates at over 350k (i don't know of any t1 frigates that can target at that range since they aren't being remote boosted currently) and a dual range boosted domi cant target past 200k.
Targeting range is not the same as sensor strength.
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Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:50:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr I call BS on this, there are several missions, (blockade lvl 4 for one) where I have been targeted by frigates at over 350k (i don't know of any t1 frigates that can target at that range since they aren't being remote boosted currently) and a dual range boosted domi cant target past 200k.
Targeting range is not the same as sensor strength.
I know this, but it was an example to disprove the statement that the rats are not capable of anything a standard t1 ship can do.
If they can target at this range, what else can they do that is far above the standard ability of ANY player owned t1 ship?
DL
The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out! |
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:50:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Ki Tarra A question regarding the Sleepers: are their attributes going to be listed in the data dump, or should we expect them to be excluded to keep their capabilities unknown?
TBH I have no clue.
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Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:50:00 -
[89]
The only thing that seems to upset me in the whole equation is the use of nos/neut by the NPCs, particularly neuts. The idea behind neuts is that you have to sacrifice your own cap to kill another ship's cap, and with infinite cap in these NPCs, its not the loss:loss trade off that PvP fits actually have to account for. If these critters are going to be doing as much damage as you say they are, they should not be able to mess with the cap of a player's ship. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Viktor Del'Grande
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:00:00 -
[90]
Hi,
i have a few questions:
- Are they affected from tracking disruption the same way as players are affected from it? Is their optimal range and falloff behaviour the same as at the players? Or are these attribute like the cap infinite? There are NPCs out there which shoot you with blasters from 50km+
- Are they the same way affected by sensor dampening (targeting range) as players? Or do they have infinite targeting range .. or maybe 250km?
I have fought some sleepers in a gang with 2 MSes and a carrier and a moros + some BSes. We were maybe 30 people in the gang and we got heavy losses at the smaller (BS and smaller) ships. I lost my falcon as we got respawn. This was on thursday 02/19.
We have to ask whick kind of e-war works against them, because the e-war is not the same as against players.. you know .. nos/neut cap and so ...
Best Regards
Viktor Del'Grande
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