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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
Kayn Otar
Samurai Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:02:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr I call BS on this, there are several missions, (blockade lvl 4 for one) where I have been targeted by frigates at over 350k
Targeting range is not the same as sensor strength.
But it makes a huge difference if you are trying to re-cloak a stealth bomber.
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:02:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr I know this, but it was an example to disprove the statement that the rats are not capable of anything a standard t1 ship can do.
You mean like how they never run out of cap, or how their E-war has a fixed chance of success regardless of what the target is, or any number of other things that are specific to NPC mechanics.
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:07:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Ki Tarra on 23/02/2009 18:08:06
Originally by: Viktor Del'Grande
- Are they affected from tracking disruption the same way as players are affected from it? Is their optimal range and falloff behaviour the same as at the players? Or are these attribute like the cap infinite? There are NPCs out there which shoot you with blasters from 50km+
They certainly have the same tracking mechanics.
As an example, this type of NPC will attack at long range, but won't actually hit until it gets up close.
It is hard to tell if tracking disruption affects those attributes as expected. With K-Space rats it is probably not worth trying as you end up using a full module to neutralize only one rat.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:10:00 -
[94]
So... they do not self repair, but they spidertank
Odd behavior. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:18:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Incognito ARRGGGGG
NPC HAVE NEVER BEEN INVULNERABLE TO ECM!!!
sigh..
Don't worry, there are a few of us players who know that.
The reason you don't use ECM on K-Space rats isn't because it doesn't work. It is because they spawn in such large numbers that it is pointless. Why bother fitting an ECM module to take out a single rat, when you can fit a hardener to reduce the damage from the remaining 20.
Now if Sleepers are balanced closer to a 1v1 relationship with players instead of the 1v30 ratio that you can easily handle with K-Space rats, then fitting ECM will become a more useful tactic.
However, if Sleepers are still balanced so that they vastly out number the players that are supposed to engage them, then ECM will remain impractical.
Or you pick and chose you engagements? You know, like in PvP? -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Marnix
Gallente Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:21:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Incognito ARRGGGGG
NPC HAVE NEVER BEEN INVULNERABLE TO ECM!!!
sigh..
Don't worry, there are a few of us players who know that.
The reason you don't use ECM on K-Space rats isn't because it doesn't work. It is because they spawn in such large numbers that it is pointless. Why bother fitting an ECM module to take out a single rat, when you can fit a hardener to reduce the damage from the remaining 20.
Now if Sleepers are balanced closer to a 1v1 relationship with players instead of the 1v30 ratio that you can easily handle with K-Space rats, then fitting ECM will become a more useful tactic.
However, if Sleepers are still balanced so that they vastly out number the players that are supposed to engage them, then ECM will remain impractical.
Or you pick and chose you engagements? You know, like in PvP?
Because being lucky if you get 3 fights a day PvPing isnt enough, you gotta have the same luck with PvE now?
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:25:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Incognito ARRGGGGG
NPC HAVE NEVER BEEN INVULNERABLE TO ECM!!!
sigh..
Don't worry, there are a few of us players who know that.
The reason you don't use ECM on K-Space rats isn't because it doesn't work. It is because they spawn in such large numbers that it is pointless. Why bother fitting an ECM module to take out a single rat, when you can fit a hardener to reduce the damage from the remaining 20.
Now if Sleepers are balanced closer to a 1v1 relationship with players instead of the 1v30 ratio that you can easily handle with K-Space rats, then fitting ECM will become a more useful tactic.
However, if Sleepers are still balanced so that they vastly out number the players that are supposed to engage them, then ECM will remain impractical.
Or you pick and chose you engagements? You know, like in PvP?
Because being lucky if you get 3 fights a day PvPing isnt enough, you gotta have the same luck with PvE now?
No you just don't engage a full fleet of sleepers with a frigate is what I'm saying. There's only one alliance I know of that engages regularly with a full fleet of frigates, with the expected results. For all the lulz, I think even they gave up on that idea ...
You know, use your head? -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:26:00 -
[98]
Lets assume it was 1v30.
1v29 is actually better than 1v30.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:43:00 -
[99]
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium "The new NPCs may optimize their approach to maximize transversal in order to avoid to be instantly destroyed by player volleys.
I'm gonna call it: "Shark NPCs."
≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store | eve-maps.com |
Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:51:00 -
[100]
yeah they were moving about 2l a sec so they did that very well
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:58:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Viktor Del'Grande Hi,
- Are they affected from tracking disruption the same way as players are affected from it? Is their optimal range and falloff behaviour the same as at the players? Or are these attribute like the cap infinite? There are NPCs out there which shoot you with blasters from 50km+
- Are they the same way affected by sensor dampening (targeting range) as players? Or do they have infinite targeting range .. or maybe 250km?
They should be, I would have to spelunk the code to be 100% sure. It should have the same affect as it does on players, one thing to be aware of is the npc have different ranges and falloffs than most pc ships.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.23 19:09:00 -
[102]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Fakespace So, unlimited rang AND uber tank AND crazy dps AND (current npc-like) immune to e-War ?
I realy realy hope i'm wrong here.
You are.
They don't have unlimited range, they do have across the board DPS and resists, No stacking all explosive hardeners and sleeping through the encounter. They are just like current NPC in the e-war side of things. IE they have unlimited cap, but you can still paint them, ECM, warp scramble, and web them.
For all but the solo content you will need some remote repairing capability with you. Either a drone boat with repair drones, or a remote rep on the drones, or a dedicated logistics ship. The harder level stuff will require capital ships, and the rewards scale as the difficulty does.
1) NPC number are still usually higher than players numbers, so most "usable" EW become useless; 2) some of the old NPC are totally immune to EW, included target painters, I hope no new NPC has that ability; 3) as things currently stay with WH space I doubt the reward will meaningfully scale with risk, as for it to scale the T3 cruisers would cost billions, but then the number sold would be very limited.
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Fakespace
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Posted - 2009.02.23 19:25:00 -
[103]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Viktor Del'Grande Hi,
- Are they affected from tracking disruption the same way as players are affected from it? Is their optimal range and falloff behaviour the same as at the players? Or are these attribute like the cap infinite? There are NPCs out there which shoot you with blasters from 50km+
- Are they the same way affected by sensor dampening (targeting range) as players? Or do they have infinite targeting range .. or maybe 250km?
They should be, I would have to spelunk the code to be 100% sure. It should have the same affect as it does on players, one thing to be aware of is the npc have different ranges and falloffs than most pc ships.
yay, i was wrong (see previous post) Anyway, please do spelunk the code for this
So, basically only nos/neut problem remains? *Everlasting npc neuts (can be handled with cap transfer and targetswitching/warouts and so) *Nos-ing an npc gives a couple of cap-boost, and reduce the npc's repair a %. However, these npc's dont repair now do they? Will nos now reduce the npc's abillity to remote repair?
Anyway, we can work with this, and not to hard to overcome i guess... as long as the npc's ranges and falloffs arnt to crazy ofc (for dampeners).
Finally, wouldnt if make more sence to use "standar" ship rangees and falloff's? Just so people wont be forced to use "new npc non-pvp" fittings, removing the whole point?
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Marnix
Gallente Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.02.23 19:26:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Originally by: Marnix Because being lucky if you get 3 fights a day PvPing isnt enough, you gotta have the same luck with PvE now?
No you just don't engage a full fleet of sleepers with a frigate is what I'm saying. There's only one alliance I know of that engages regularly with a full fleet of frigates, with the expected results. For all the lulz, I think even they gave up on that idea ...
You know, use your head?
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Or you pick and chose you engagements? You know, like in PvP?
Solo and small gang PvP comes down to ganks, running, and a few lucky fights.
You know, what you don't want for PvE?
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Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
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Posted - 2009.02.23 19:28:00 -
[105]
I have certainly been annoyed at frigates targeting me at 100+km. I'm pretty sure they shouldn't be able to do that.
But, good work! I hope the npc's get smarter and smarter. I for one welcome our new npc overlords!
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Gadrin Demarr
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.23 19:34:00 -
[106]
First off, I was happy to read the dev blog! Updates to the AI are direly needed and it will be very interesting to see what tactics people can come up with against these monsters!
To all those who are complaining that its unfair that the Sleepers have uber-stats: You know, these guys are supposed to be the bad ass alien mofos from an unknown universe. I don't think they were meant to be "fair", they were meant to strike fear into our hearts! I look forward to get myself omgwftpwned.
That said, however, it is of course important that clever usage of in-game mechanics is rewarded. If a completely sound tactic fails only because "oops, they happened to be immune" for no particular reason, that is kind of immersion breaking. Hopefully this is just something that will be fixed soon and we will be able to use all our tricks to turn the table against them!
About the PvP vs PvE discussion: I must say that when you say that "PvE should be PvE, and PvP should be PvP", I really do not understand what you are saying...
If by "being PvE" you mean something completely predictable which present little to no challenge but simply rewards you for taking your time to sit through it (compare grinding low lvl mobs in wow), then I wouldn't call that PvE. I'd call it booring and fundamentally flawed. Some people may enjoy push-over fights but most prefer a bit of a challenge. It makes the victory all the sweeter when you finally prevail.
Personally I'd like to see the stale and older-than-wow (which is frakking old and uninventive) PvE content to be revised with new ideas: Real ship fitting and real characters with strengths and weaknesses. I'd like to be getting real escort missions in normal non-deadspace space which may be intercepted by real players or AI pirates all the same! Real assassinations where I am required to track and follow a target far away using my locator agents before someone else happens to pop him. Something which blends into and enriches the normal gameplay by creating interesting scenarios for the players (all of us) to interact with instead of the static sandbox PvE playground. Something different from the old "go here, kill that" or "go there, bring that".
Anyway, an improved AI is at least a step in the right direction. Great work! I can't wait until this stuff works its way down into the regular content! (well, uber-stats and cheating excluded then of course)
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Surana Rens
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Posted - 2009.02.23 19:42:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Gadrin Demarr Personally I'd like to see the stale and older-than-wow (which is frakking old and uninventive) PvE content to be revised with new ideas: Real ship fitting and real characters with strengths and weaknesses. I'd like to be getting real escort missions in normal non-deadspace space which may be intercepted by real players or AI pirates all the same! Real assassinations where I am required to track and follow a target far away using my locator agents before someone else happens to pop him.
Hey! Those are great ideas. Would that type of thing be too hard to add? Devs?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.23 19:48:00 -
[108]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
A lot of people here are taking the new AI and sticking on the current NPC ships. The new ships are different than what is in K-Space (like that term...). The sleepers don't have shields for one and they don't self repair. So hit and run tactics are valid, but if you try to bull doze them with brute force you lose. (not quite true, they will self repair them selves but only if you are out of the grid for a while)
You have to rethink how PvE works, brute force attacks will be playing into there strengths. While different tactics that don't work against K-space NPC could work against sleepers.
In short if you try to use the same-old same-old tactics against sleepers then you will have problems. Think out of the box and you will win.
Hit and run = spend lot of time
and from what I have seen of combat screenshopts they warp disrupt like crazy
If you are convinced it will work and be fun
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Public Funded War Targets
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Posted - 2009.02.23 20:01:00 -
[109]
We're in the septic tank now !
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.23 21:01:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: CCP Incognito
A lot of people here are taking the new AI and sticking on the current NPC ships. The new ships are different than what is in K-Space (like that term...). The sleepers don't have shields for one and they don't self repair. So hit and run tactics are valid, but if you try to bull doze them with brute force you lose. (not quite true, they will self repair them selves but only if you are out of the grid for a while)
You have to rethink how PvE works, brute force attacks will be playing into there strengths. While different tactics that don't work against K-space NPC could work against sleepers.
In short if you try to use the same-old same-old tactics against sleepers then you will have problems. Think out of the box and you will win.
Hit and run = spend lot of time
and from what I have seen of combat screenshopts they warp disrupt like crazy
If you are convinced it will work and be fun
Frigates as tacklers? What a shocking development that has surely never happend.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Ordais
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Posted - 2009.02.23 21:46:00 -
[111]
This wont work.
If you want to make PvE like PvP, then the NPCs need to be like real ships, meaning they need to have ALL the weaknesses as players. Otherwise, you just have a cheating AI, and this is nothing like real PvP.
They are not affected by NOS or NEUT for example, so if i go in there with a curse...i do exactly "nothing" to them....tell me HOW is that like real PvP?...
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J Valkor
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.02.23 21:58:00 -
[112]
All the crying about not being able to farm sleepers is great. Good job CCP. That half the posts are by pilots that never read any other material on them is even better.
ALL ECM BUT CAP WARFARE WORK ON THEM.
Get on SISI and try them instead of whining about it. They don't have bounties you know.
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Viktor Del'Grande
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Posted - 2009.02.23 21:59:00 -
[113]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
.... They should be, I would have to spelunk the code to be 100% sure. It should have the same affect as it does on players, one thing to be aware of is the npc have different ranges and falloffs than most pc ships.
Thanks for the answer CCP Incognito!
Best Regards
Viktor Del'Grande
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari Husarian Loyalists
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Posted - 2009.02.23 22:01:00 -
[114]
Originally by: CCP Incognito ARRGGGGG NPC HAVE NEVER BEEN INVULNERABLE TO ECM!!!
sigh..
I know I am nitpicking but it's not everyday when you can correct a dev. There was a time around 2004 when NPC were immune to jamming. I know because I tried to use Blackbird on a mission and failed miserably.
I think you introduced jammable NPC with changes in ECM (randomizing jamming).
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.02.23 22:26:00 -
[115]
Any chances of hunter npcs?
You know the kind that sorta chase you though warp and possibly call reinforcemtns if you took it to a repair camp? =============
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
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Imnar Blade
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Posted - 2009.02.23 22:36:00 -
[116]
Dunno about the rest, but I've found NOS to be quite useful in regular PvE. It lets me drop a Cap power relay in favour of an overdrive, and still have just over 29 mins of cap with all guns blazing and my tank running full time.
Oh actually I do have one comment on the rest. B45t4rd5
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 22:43:00 -
[117]
Originally by: CCP Incognito Webs are needed for frigates, target painters and dampeners are still useful, and ECM will still shut down a npc from attacking.
The changes we want to make int he future to E-War is to make the NPC less capable when it comes to jamming, and sleepers don't use Jamming.
As an Amarr ships only player I'm somewhat concerned that it seems like Sleeper NPCs will be immune to Tracking Disruptors and Energy Neutralizers and Nosferatu's (just like regular NPCs are now). From what you say it seems like all racial ECM expect Amarr-based Electronic Warfare will work against sleepers. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 22:45:00 -
[118]
Originally by: J Valkor All the crying about not being able to farm sleepers is great. Good job CCP. That half the posts are by pilots that never read any other material on them is even better.
ALL ECM BUT CAP WARFARE WORK ON THEM.
Get on SISI and try them instead of whining about it. They don't have bounties you know.
Great news if at least tracking disruptors work now against the Sleeper NPCs. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 22:53:00 -
[119]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
All the e-war works on npc, you can jam a sleeper quite easily. even nos and neuts have a affect on NPC, yes they have infinite cap. that doesn't mean that nos and neut don't have an affect on them. People have been assuming that because they have infinite cap that nos doesn't work on them.
People have assumed that because you can't defend against a Gurista jamming you that the reverse is true. It is not, you can jam a NPC and make it stop attacking.
ECM has always worked on NPCs, webifiers have always worked, warp disruption may have worked but was unneccessary, dampeners never seemed to work, and tracking disruption certainly does not. Got this confirmed that it was intentional game design after bug reporting it on when testing out new FW NPCs.
With the old AI model its easy to understand why Tracking Disruption wouldn't work, otherwise one TD could simply disable one hostile NPC battleship. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Avernus
Gallente Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul
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Posted - 2009.02.23 23:20:00 -
[120]
Question for you;
Is cycle jamming a viable tactic?
Previously (been a while since I NPC'd), NPC's could insta lock you, there was no delay, so cycle jamming wasn't an option. Do W-Space NPC's have lock times?
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