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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.24 11:38:00 -
[151]
Edited by: CCP Incognito on 24/02/2009 11:38:27
Originally by: Eileene
Just make sure there is a point to fit ECCM modules. As it is now NPC ignore your ECCM modules and use static tables with jam chances.
As stated above, this was pushed back till after release, so you won't see it yet, but it is high on the backlog.
But since the w-space npc don't use jamming it wasn't viewed as critical yet.
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Princess Boon
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Posted - 2009.02.24 12:12:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Princess Boon on 24/02/2009 12:13:25 The new AI sounds great.
I think most of my comments have been said before, but to reiterate.
NPCs that behave like real players is fantastic, and will certainly spice up PVE combat. However, I hope that, just like humans, the AI will make mistakes. The Sleepers, with their awesome technology, already have a huge advantage over conventional ships; add to that the reaction times of a computer, and the ability to magically see all the capabilities of all the ships they engage, could make the whole experience feel unrealistic. Will it be possible to actually out smart the Sleepers?
I think it's a shame the AI is not being applied to NPCs we are already familiar with; to ease us in to the hash realities of w-space combat.
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Winter Star
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2009.02.24 12:13:00 -
[153]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Winter Star I wonder if trying ot cycle the primary target of the sleeper would prove effective? Agro could maybe be grabbed by a dps increase acheieved through heat or somesuch and cycling your mwd to increase signature?
Sry we use the unmodified signature radius, we are looking to compare class not get your frigate popped by the battle ship cause your mwd makes you look like one.
Oh yeah /doh! Disregarding the mwd part - is the theory still osund in principle, would a method of cycling and threat management through Heat be feasible iyo? I know i oculd just pop on sis and try this but i'm stuck at work and this is more fun ;)
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Pliauga
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.24 12:21:00 -
[154]
Originally by: CCP Incognito Edited by: CCP Incognito on 24/02/2009 11:38:27
Originally by: Eileene
Just make sure there is a point to fit ECCM modules. As it is now NPC ignore your ECCM modules and use static tables with jam chances.
As stated above, this was pushed back till after release, so you won't see it yet, but it is high on the backlog.
But since the w-space npc don't use jamming it wasn't viewed as critical yet.
But this is critical!!!
If the players entering W-space dont't bring any ECCM (as there is no point) then they will be vulnerable to ECM PvP. Hence this brings us to our current situation. PvE and PvP require different type of fits and different aproaches.
------- "Skynet" is my internet provider, should I be worried? |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.24 12:25:00 -
[155]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
We are both right, if you have been fighting a NPC for a while, and surviving then the NPC will have observed you are a good tank, and your threat is reduced by a multiplier.
I will not expand on how this works, just to say that someone that has been tanking for a while will be a less valuable target than someone with no history.
depending on how long the fight has been going will kinda influence if the npc attacks the new target, or assumes that he is a ally arriving late.
In either case the npc doesn't care if he is a ally or a interloper. It shoots at the best target. If it knows you are a good tank, it will see if the new target is a good tank or not. If it doesn't know yet then it will use the signature radius and threat as a basis for picking a good target.
So the bottom line is there is no hard fast rule that says the AI will behave this way. It all depends on what you do...
We didn't like the mechanic of first ship in holds threat for the whole battle so we changed that. You will have to fight the W-space npc and make your own guesses about when they will and won't switch targets.
I will say this.
The npc do not use faction standing/ criminal flagging/ security status for any of it's evaluation of targets.
Perfect, 10/10.
The NPC will not automatically switch targets (exploitable) but will "consider" it based on several factor.
I can't ask more.
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2009.02.24 13:10:00 -
[156]
Originally by: CCP Incognito If it observes an assistance affect like remote reping, then it will consider that as a possible target.
This reads to me as: "Don't bring logistic ships, they're insta-dead".
Is this correct? We should use buffer-tanked Battleships and Frigates, but anything between likely is dead on arrival. |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.02.24 13:40:00 -
[157]
Will we ever see rats that can change there damage type ?
Guri rats that fire missiles and yet stick with KIN when firing againt 90% resists have allways seemed the dumbest of the dumb when it comes to the AI IQ stakes.
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SmokeyJones
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Posted - 2009.02.24 14:06:00 -
[158]
How we are suposed to kill them and survive?
If they use evasive manevauring to have max transversal velocity, guns will be useless. Theu can swith target, then your drones can be easely killed.
Their DPS and resists are high. So a gang with 5 ships in spider tank can't beat them.
I was trying to thinl out of the box, but without a good tank and with useless weapon, it becomes a even hard task.
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Eclats de verre
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Posted - 2009.02.24 14:13:00 -
[159]
So, we should be able to use several things against them like : -Tracking disruptors -Sensor dampeners -others
If I damp a sleeper for range, will he approach to be able to lock again if no target is in range?
If I use an optimal tracking disruptor on a med/long range sleeper so he can't get a hit, will he come closer?
If I use a tracking script on the same tracking disruptor, will the NPC try to reduce his speed or match mine to shoot me better (lower the transversal/angular velocity)?
So, do they react when they are incapacitated by such modules? If The long/med range one approaches and I switch my tracking disruption script, will I be able to screw him on tracking? Well, will be be able to build real tactics around the EW? -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! |
Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade eXponential maXimum
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Posted - 2009.02.24 14:49:00 -
[160]
Well, this all demos the problem with making AI, I think. Eventually the players will figure out the script and make their own response to control the battle, then post it on the net and everyone will follow. Meantime you cant spend enough time make the npcs smart enough to beat a real player. But its sure a step better than the current NPCs. Either way, if you want a real fight, go fight real people. If you want a scripted fight, fight NPCs. I just hope the rewards scale to the challenge.
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brinelan
Caldari Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.24 15:16:00 -
[161]
Edited by: brinelan on 24/02/2009 15:16:31 Awesome ccp! The mission runners asked for smarter AI and are all upset when they got it.
I for one am looking forward to the occasional npc'ing run again.
Cap ship required fights \0/
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. |
Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2009.02.24 15:26:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Originally by: CCP Incognito If it observes an assistance affect like remote reping, then it will consider that as a possible target.
This reads to me as: "Don't bring logistic ships, they're insta-dead".
Is this correct? We should use buffer-tanked Battleships and Frigates, but anything between likely is dead on arrival.
How about spider-tanking? Ever thought of that? It will have the Sleepers switch between the partners in the spider tank. In fact, the tanker will be prefered over the one being tanked, if I read the algorithm right. Sounds like a good tactic ... if you're good enough to pull it off ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Nikuno
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Posted - 2009.02.24 15:33:00 -
[163]
A quick question regarding the rats and mining the new clouds. With the new AI and the rats choosing the easier targets won't mining the new clouds be almost impossible using industrial ships? Surely they'll be targeted and killed very quickly without a massive fleet of warships guarding them?
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.24 15:39:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Originally by: CCP Incognito If it observes an assistance affect like remote reping, then it will consider that as a possible target.
This reads to me as: "Don't bring logistic ships, they're insta-dead".
Is this correct? We should use buffer-tanked Battleships and Frigates, but anything between likely is dead on arrival.
bring everything, and the kitchen sink.
secondary targets work on other things than the main threat list. So observing remote rep is most likly going to get you a secondary attack. but it might tip you into the top threat position...
Play on sisi and tell me what it plays like but logistics ships have a definite role in the encounters.
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.24 15:41:00 -
[165]
Originally by: SmokeyJones How we are suposed to kill them and survive?
If they use evasive manevauring to have max transversal velocity, guns will be useless. Theu can swith target, then your drones can be easely killed.
Their DPS and resists are high. So a gang with 5 ships in spider tank can't beat them.
I was trying to think out of the box, but without a good tank and with useless weapon, it becomes a even hard task.
You are assuming that they do allt hat all the time, well the dps and resists are all the time. But the evasive maneuvers are only on closing with target. They go back to orbit behavior when in optimal range. The Remote rep has a chance and is not on all npcs
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Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
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Posted - 2009.02.24 16:10:00 -
[166]
Originally by: SmokeyJones How we are suposed to kill them and survive?
If they use evasive manevauring to have max transversal velocity, guns will be useless. Theu can swith target, then your drones can be easely killed.
Their DPS and resists are high. So a gang with 5 ships in spider tank can't beat them.
I was trying to thinl out of the box, but without a good tank and with useless weapon, it becomes a even hard task.
Good Lord Man! Have you ever pvp'd? They try to keep their traversal high... so what... that's what web is for. They switch targets... so what... that's what repping your drones or ecming the npc is for. They spider tank... so what... jam them...
These are all things that pvpers do all the time. pvpers use tracking to their advantage, switch targets (even smartbomb drones), they spider tank, have high resists, have high dps, and do lots of things that the npc's can't do.
Are they invulnerable???
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2009.02.24 16:58:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane How about spider-tanking? Ever thought of that?
Yes. That's why I asked. If a spider-tank is necessary, a logistic ship probably won't be useful, because I doubt it can be tanked well and still be of much use. |
Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2009.02.24 17:01:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder
Originally by: SmokeyJones How we are suposed to kill them and survive?
If they use evasive manevauring to have max transversal velocity, guns will be useless. Theu can swith target, then your drones can be easely killed.
Their DPS and resists are high. So a gang with 5 ships in spider tank can't beat them.
I was trying to thinl out of the box, but without a good tank and with useless weapon, it becomes a even hard task.
Good Lord Man! Have you ever pvp'd? They try to keep their traversal high... so what... that's what web is for. They switch targets... so what... that's what repping your drones or ecming the npc is for. They spider tank... so what... jam them...
These are all things that pvpers do all the time. pvpers use tracking to their advantage, switch targets (even smartbomb drones), they spider tank, have high resists, have high dps, and do lots of things that the npc's can't do.
Are they invulnerable???
Can they do all that at the same time? No? I didn't think so. If you fit for PvP you have a specific task in mind. Spider tanked gangs are different then buffer tanked gangs/fleets. If you choose one, you can't do the other. That's what makes EVE fun, the choices you have to make.
Unless you're a Sleeper, then you can have high resists, passive armour tanking (!), do spider tanking, sensor boosters that let you lock at large range and at incredible speeds, a massive buffer tank, do some nano and have high speeds, have high DPS and neut at the same time, a scrambler, a webber, enough cap for infinite MWD without resolution penalty, etc. etc. etc.
Now, give me the PvP ship and setup that can do all that. No? I didn't think so. Perhaps you should do some PvP before posting about it.
I don't mind the challenge. I relish it. But this isn't a challenge, this is bad game design. And it has nothing to do with the AI. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2009.02.24 17:05:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane How about spider-tanking? Ever thought of that?
Yes. That's why I asked. If a spider-tank is necessary, a logistic ship probably won't be useful, because I doubt it can be tanked well and still be of much use.
I thought about it some more as well, and a spider-tank is probably not possible. The Sleepter neut. So what are you going to run those remote reppers on?
Sigh, let's face it, these ueber-stats are just broken ...
I'm gonna try to get in some wormhole tonight, but I don't have much hope I'll enjoy the experience. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.24 17:24:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Unless you're a Sleeper, then you can have high resists, passive armour tanking (!), do spider tanking, sensor boosters that let you lock at large range and at incredible speeds, a massive buffer tank, do some nano and have high speeds, have high DPS and neut at the same time, a scrambler, a webber, enough cap for infinite MWD without resolution penalty, etc. etc. etc.
You are ascribing all the current ability of a npc to the sleepers, they lack some of the things you talk about. Others they use in balance with there abilities. So a player can't do all of these things at the same time... We are talking about beings from another galaxy, of course they are going to do things that you can't. That is what makes them from a another galaxy. T3 ships are what tech you salvage from blowing up these beings.
But that is all the fiction, plain and simple we could make any npc in eve with the stats and ability that the sleeper has. Simple fact we can make a encounter that is numerically impossible to beat. All it takes is setting the dps to 10 billion and there isn't a ship that could survive.
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.02.24 17:24:00 -
[171]
Sleepers have a big punch, strong armor, and nos web and scramble. Do all the sleepers have all that, NO! Do they have other weaknesses, YES. Are players beating the highest level encounters, Yes! Are they losing ships, Yes! Are we tuning them from play tests so that they are fun, Yes!
We worry about all the points you worry about and more. Can the sleepers be exploited? Can they be farmed? Can they provide a challenge? Are the majority find them fun? Will it attract new players? Will it be interesting for experienced players? Are they two hard? to easy? Trivial for one type of set up? Impossible for a type of setup?
Remember the code on sisi is being updated daily, we have been adjusting the code and the AI and the DPS, nos chances, .... daily, some of those changes will hit sisi before release.
Please provide feedback to sleeper encounters in the forms, idle speculation of what they do and don't do without playing against them is pointless. We are working to make them balanced, and we watch players fighting the sleepers, we see what is way to overpowered, and what is not powerful enough.
Personally I have great faith in the player base. I fully expect that in a month of thins hitting TQ that there will be tactics and fitting setups that will make farming w-space possible. If the minimum we have is that you can't watch TV while doing a encounter then we as developers and designers have won! We have created a AI that is adaptive enough to hold your attention and make you play the game.
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Clurk Brodon
Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.24 17:44:00 -
[172]
Originally by: CCP Incognito If the minimum we have is that you can't watch TV while doing a encounter then we as developers and designers have won! We have created a AI that is adaptive enough to hold your attention and make you play the game.
And if you create content that can't be reliably soloed, you fail. Most pilots will ignore your high-risk AI and stick to grinding easy-mode L4 (and complain that it's boring).
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Gar Ddhen
Gallente Can't Decide Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.02.24 18:04:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane How about spider-tanking? Ever thought of that?
Yes. That's why I asked. If a spider-tank is necessary, a logistic ship probably won't be useful, because I doubt it can be tanked well and still be of much use.
Dual fit Guardians/Basilisks using remote cap transfer on each other plus their remote reps can maintain a hell of a turtle... especially if the logi pilots have logistics 5 so have cap to play with when hit by the neuting effects. Most logistics 5 pilots only need the one large energy transfer on them to maintain all systems... the second allows a good buffer against cap warfare.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.02.24 18:18:00 -
[174]
Originally by: CCP Incognito Sleepers have a big punch, strong armor, and nos web and scramble. Do all the sleepers have all that, NO! Do they have other weaknesses, YES. Are players beating the highest level encounters, Yes! Are they losing ships, Yes! Are we tuning them from play tests so that they are fun, Yes!
We worry about all the points you worry about and more. Can the sleepers be exploited? Can they be farmed? Can they provide a challenge? Are the majority find them fun? Will it attract new players? Will it be interesting for experienced players? Are they two hard? to easy? Trivial for one type of set up? Impossible for a type of setup?
Remember the code on sisi is being updated daily, we have been adjusting the code and the AI and the DPS, nos chances, .... daily, some of those changes will hit sisi before release.
Please provide feedback to sleeper encounters in the forms, idle speculation of what they do and don't do without playing against them is pointless. We are working to make them balanced, and we watch players fighting the sleepers, we see what is way to overpowered, and what is not powerful enough.
Personally I have great faith in the player base. I fully expect that in a month of thins hitting TQ that there will be tactics and fitting setups that will make farming w-space possible. If the minimum we have is that you can't watch TV while doing a encounter then we as developers and designers have won! We have created a AI that is adaptive enough to hold your attention and make you play the game.
And those players that are doing well are testing things with groups far larger than will be viable using WHs on TQ will allow i mean come on one of the first testing groups had 30 people or something including 2 MS and and a carrier that was hardly a realistic group and they were supposed to be taking on a 10 man site iirc yet they still lost a number of ships.
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.24 18:32:00 -
[175]
Originally by: CCP Incognito Like I said above.
Join 'Wormholes' on sisi and a GM/ QA will move you to wormhole space.
Also be aware there is a pending bug fix for part of the drone problem. the drones where generating double the threat they should have been so the NPC where seeing them as the most desirable target.
Should be patched this week on sisi.
Nice to see CCP that there was indeed a bug to explain the drone killing extravaganza. But, the question still remains, is an Ishtar with 5 Ogre II's or 5 Sentries still going to be worthwhile in a group. Clearly, if the Ishtar is the best DPS boat in the squad, the drones are toast using the threat assessment AI you have built.
But what about those Ogre II's in a squad of Laser and Missle based boats? If the drones are still very high on the threat assessment list (yes, I read about the tanking portion of the targeting assessment), then Gallente drone boats are still not a viable weapon platform. I am hoping to organize a crew within my corp to do some testing this weekend, so will withhold further comment until then.
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Avernus
Gallente Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul
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Posted - 2009.02.24 18:57:00 -
[176]
Ingconito,
Great replies so far, happy to see how things are shaping up. I've seen it asked by it hasn't been touched on yet;
Do Sleepers have insta-reactions? eg. locking, switching targets.
And have you figured out the loot tables? Obviously everything will have it's rarity value, but I'm wondering if some things are only obtainable from the hardest spawns?
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2009.02.24 19:46:00 -
[177]
I really don't see this style of combat giving any more love to logistics pilots. And that sucks. As NPC's will attack ships that aren't even locking them, and can dish out some SERIOUS hurt very quickly, logistics seem to be a bit screwed. You really can't get a decent tank on them, and I suspect people will die REALLY fast.
I may be wrong, but this sort of thing seems to be implying that people should be bringing standard PvP spidertank/buffer fits through wormholes. And that sucks. Really sucks. Like the alliance tournaments have shown, having everyone in boring ships and there being no particular ship that looks to be important, you get sucessful but boring fights.
I don't want to see just standard PvP gang set-ups, especially becuase it doesn't give a niche for hybridised PvE/PvP set-ups that have sustainable tanks and decent firepower, but still have points and webs and so forth. That would be good. Basically what im saying is that everyone having cap boosters, remote reps and plates, its still as boring.
I HOPE to god that thigns are better than i think.
I think it'd be great fun to be able to dump a couple of snipers into an encounter, slap the frigates, and then warp assault frigs and EAFs onto the bigger ships, so the snipers can still do damage. That would be awesome. But it really depends if the sleepers have realistic sensor ranges and sensor strength. IF you can cut their targetting range to under 50km with one or two damps, things will be good. If not, things will just be a bit... well ... meh.
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Tohms
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Posted - 2009.02.24 20:32:00 -
[178]
So what happens if the sleepers just destroy your gang and you are all in pods. how are we going to get back to empire given that the wormhole that we came through collapsed?
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2009.02.24 21:01:00 -
[179]
Moving toward PvE and PvP combat being similar is def the way to go but there is a major hurdle that you so far have not talked about.
PvE in EVE is a net profit activity while PvE is a net loss. We can go into why this is but its not important for the discussion at hand. Those roles are not going to change and both are critical for the current EVE game system.
This is the root of the issue when people talk about the reward. MOST PLAYERS ARE NOT GOING TO PVP AT A NET LOSS. But in EVE losing even the occasional ship hurts. Yes you can fly cheaper ships to lessen the damage but this will also increase the chance of defeat. This is made even worse by the vastly decreased chance of recovering yourt can if defeated by a sleeper.
SO lets assume that you actually come up with sleepers that destroy a player's ship maybe once out of 10 encounters. Those other 9 better pay off damn well (and thats assuming the other 9 are all wins).
This sin't even talking about balancing against the isk per hour rate of running l4s.
Another issue is that fitting and refitting is a key element in PVE and PVP. EVE is the only game where you can essentially "switch out whole characters". Many fights are one and lost in the fitting area. This is all good except there aren't any stations in W space. No places to refit, no places to replace lost drones, fix armor and hull, etc etc.
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Jaabaa
Minmatar Dental Drilling Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.24 21:24:00 -
[180]
http://www.eveonline.com/apocrypha/index.html
The flash link "How the AI Pew Pews the Player" goes to:
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=624 -> "This Blog entry does not exist"
and not
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=636
as it should.
Just a heads up -- EVE Mobile Skill Planner V3 !! http://evemsp.sourceforge.net/ |
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