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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.02.25 21:45:00 -
[1]
Help me decide here. The Raven can absorb a lot more damage. What speaks in favour of the Cerberus?
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.25 21:48:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier Help me decide here. The Raven can absorb a lot more damage. What speaks in favour of the Cerberus?
Do not ever fly a raven in pvp , cerb is okayish ,but the raven will be a waste of sp and isk.
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.02.25 21:48:00 -
[3]
What is missile gang pvp?
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Acinonyx Jubatus
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.25 22:07:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Jack Bombardier Help me decide here. The Raven can absorb a lot more damage. What speaks in favour of the Cerberus?
Do not ever fly a raven in pvp , cerb is okayish ,but the raven will be a waste of sp and isk.
Raven's not too bad if fit/flown/used right... Though personally I've never used one, nor do I really want to... but if you've got the skills and a raven, you can't really hate the added damage it can dole out. Probably preferrable you didn't though, but depends on the gang/fc, and ofcourse skills.
Here's my take ont he two.
Raven - insurable, takes more punishment, more damage potential, increasing worthlessness the smaller the target, slow. Cerb - almost total loss when killed, more mobile, less damage potential but wider target selection, impressive cruiser range, fragile compared to raven.
Then again, you could fit torps to the raven and venture into .5 belts... ooOOOooo
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.25 22:10:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Jack Bombardier Help me decide here. The Raven can absorb a lot more damage. What speaks in favour of the Cerberus?
Do not ever fly a raven in pvp , cerb is okayish ,but the raven will be a waste of sp and isk.
ROFL
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Arno Villanova
Amarr Galactic Defence Syndicate Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.25 22:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Jack Bombardier Help me decide here. The Raven can absorb a lot more damage. What speaks in favour of the Cerberus?
Do not ever fly a raven in pvp , cerb is okayish ,but the raven will be a waste of sp and isk.
Troll!!!
Decide based on the gang. If the FC needs BS's then the raven, and if the FC wants HAC's then take the cerb. Its really based on the fleet goal.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.25 22:15:00 -
[7]
Raven is pretty decent if used right.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.25 22:46:00 -
[8]
So how do you use right the raven? with salvagers and remote reps huh?:D
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Akor Flandres
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Posted - 2009.02.25 22:52:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Akor Flandres on 25/02/2009 22:51:50
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Do not ever fly a raven in pvp , cerb is okayish ,but the raven will be a waste of sp and isk.
This response proves why you shouldn't ever take as gospel one person's response on a forum but wait for varied discussion.
Flying a raven in solo PVP isn't going yield the best results, but as part of even a small gang, the DPS it can deal out with siege is formidable, especially if you have your target webbed down, and with a bit of ingenuity you can put a decent tank and damage mods on there to boot. The HAC is probably more versatile, but I wouldnt rule the Raven out in one fell swoop.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2009.02.25 22:58:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Haradgrim on 25/02/2009 23:00:08
Originally by: Naomi Knight So how do you use right the raven? with salvagers and remote reps huh?:D
Try sensor boosters, a decent buffer and missile range rigs. Best HIC killer out there for fleets. And yes, remote reps are a good idea...
To the OP: How big is the gang and what are you shooting? --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:02:00 -
[11]
I consider myself a very open minded person but I always get a bit suspicious when someone says that something is "good when you use it right" because it always seems to be something that ended up with the short end of the stick (ie druids)
If something is just plain good then people say just that. They just say that it's good (ie Megathron) You're never gonna hear anyone say that the Megathron is good when used right.
The size of the gang is varied greatly. I asked what ship they preferred me to use and they said I could use whatever I want. I want to use a ship with missiles so it comes down to these two then. Although if the general attitude is "use whatever you like" then I suspect that I'm going to find a lot of people in well armoured battleships and hence a support ship like the Cerberus might be warranted.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier I consider myself a very open minded person but I always get a bit suspicious when someone says that something is "good when you use it right" because it always seems to be something that ended up with the short end of the stick (ie druids)
If something is just plain good then people say just that. They just say that it's good (ie Megathron) You're never gonna hear anyone say that the Megathron is good when used right.
The size of the gang is varied greatly. I asked what ship they preferred me to use and they said I could use whatever I want. I want to use a ship with missiles so it comes down to these two then. Although if the general attitude is "use whatever you like" then I suspect that I'm going to find a lot of people in well armoured battleships and hence a support ship like the Cerberus might be warranted.
Both ships are widely used, if you are flying around low sec pirating at gates than you should be using a raven. If you are roaming around 0.0 looking for targets of opportunity; fly a cerb. If you are in a fleet fight, unless light support is badly needed for some reason; fly a raven.
As with all ships in EVE; which one you choose is situation based. Personally, I fly both. If you want an "all around" sort of ship; train amarr and get a Curse... --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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Aegis Osiris
Gallente Demonic Retribution Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:34:00 -
[13]
Cerb.
Solid damage, excellent range, good mobility, and you can set your midslots to aid your gang and so pull double duty (dps + damps).
If your gang is going to go out in BS's, the Raven is ok, but if your talking an RR gang, then it best be a shield RR one. I like violet more then pink. |
Cautet
Better Dead Then Smeg Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:34:00 -
[14]
Have you considered using a crow instead? Thats a missile ship you could take to most types of fights.
I am slightly suspicious of your fc telling you to bring anything you want. Did he specify a range for the engagement? What ships are other people bringing? General rule of thumb would be that its acceptable to bring some Hacs to a BS gang but not so much for a lone BS to tag onto a HAC gang. Inty can tag on to either. Also, if it's a RR BS gang then you might have to armor tank the Raven and use Armor Remote reps.
It depends on the speed the gang needs to move at, what the targets are likely to be, what other people are bringing, etc. I would take a crow along personally.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:45:00 -
[15]
As a Caldari pilot, who's flown both in PvP, permit me to share my experiences of them.
They're basically different tools for different jobs - they Raven has an excessive amount of firepower, and a healthy amount of tank - it makes a superb close range slugger, and anti-battleship weapon. Sadly I haven't used the Raven much recently, because in my opinion it doesn't fit as well in a remote repair gang as ... well, almost any other battleship actually.
As a cruise missile platform it can deploy missiles at extreme range, pack a lot of electronic warfare and still carry heavy neutralisers and drones. That use is ... I'm afraid though, rather niche - because of the nature of battleship combat, you tend to only use 'extreme range' when in a sniper fleet, and at that point your damage latency puts you out of the picture. It can be used, but it mostly requires gangs set up around the concept, rather than an ad-hoc bolt on - Burn Eden in particular have managed to make a good thing of the 'long range raven'.
The cerberus is basically a horse archer - it exists to long range and mobile. It's pretty fragile - certainly by Raven standards, but probably by most HAC standards as well - it just doesn't have the powergrid to do much in the way of tanking. But it's also quite agile, and ... will get to 150km significantly faster than a Raven will.
Heavy missiles are generally better 'anti-support' weapons, as they hit cruisers harder than cruise missiles will. And with 180km range, it will actually do more damage than even battleships at that kind of range - you just have to accept that you don't get _instant_ damage, which actually works way better when you're taking about a smaller formation, such as you're likely to be using in a HAC gang.
Er. Well, let me put it this way - I fly in gangs of less than 10 the vast majority of the time - I've used the Raven ... no times, and the Cerb (and caracal pretending to be a Cerb) quite a lot - over the last 6 months or so. (Although, i might use the Raven in an RR gang, I tend to find a Falcon or Guardian to be way more useful)
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:59:00 -
[16]
There was mention that most encounters would be at close range 30km and less.
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Radcjk
Caldari Failed Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.02.26 00:30:00 -
[17]
Swiss or Cheddar on my cheeseburger ? Theres variables mate. A lot of them, but here are the three general ones.
1: Finances - What can you afford to lose ? Insured BS or HAC ? If Insurance is a must, Take the Raven. If not, the Cerberus is still viable.
2: Target - Do the intended target(s) typically or are currently heavy with BS and only some smaller support ships ? Take the Raven. Cruise or Torps are best when the enemy is BS / BC heavy.
If they tend to fly smaller boats, take the Cerberus and get the most out of your agility and missile damage type.
3: Location - Roaming ? Static camp ? Empire or 0.0 ?
Leave the Cerb at home for (non war target) gate camps. It doesnt tank gate guns + enemies well, and by the time your missiles exceed the 150 km sniper point the target is likely dead. Take the Raven.
In small, agile, 0.0 roams the Cerb is far more beneficial. In belt, station, and gate games with war targets and lower risk of getting randomly screwed on the gate, refer back to Point # 2.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.26 01:07:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Soporo on 26/02/2009 01:07:59 Just bring a HAM Drake (short range) or a HML Drake. Btw, When asking these sorts of pvp questions you need to tell us where: LowSuck, O.o, or Empire as the fits can vary wildly depending.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.02.26 01:22:00 -
[19]
wars and mercenary jobs mainly.
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Trader20
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Posted - 2009.02.26 01:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Jack Bombardier Help me decide here. The Raven can absorb a lot more damage. What speaks in favour of the Cerberus?
Do not ever fly a raven in pvp , cerb is okayish ,but the raven will be a waste of sp and isk.
Ignore this, a torp raven can be awsome when shooting at painted, webbed, tackled bc/bs in gang pvp.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.02.26 01:50:00 -
[21]
I like the Cerberus but I'm worried that if I'm in one then I'l be picked off by enemy ships as a priority target when our side just has battleships mainly as well.
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6Bagheera9
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.26 03:17:00 -
[22]
A Cerb in a fleet of BS probably won't be primaried as it doesn't do a ton of dps. If you're afraid of the cost of losing it, go with a Drake. Also at >30km, Ravens should be fitted with torps. Cruise don't do nearly as much damage and your extreme range will be wasted.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.02.26 04:10:00 -
[23]
I meant Torpedoes. I wrote missiles as in the missile category.
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dibblety
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Posted - 2009.02.26 04:47:00 -
[24]
Forget both of them, get a Falcon or Scorpion
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Tractory
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Posted - 2009.02.26 07:42:00 -
[25]
I would always go with the raven as it doesnt cost the earth to replace if its insured. Warp in on top of your target, or sit off the gate in low sec and pound away with your torps:-
[Raven, torps and armor] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II
ECCM - Gravimetric II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution ECCM - Gravimetric II Warp Disruptor II Target Painter II
Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Large 'Arup' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Salvager I
Anti-Explosive Pump I Anti-Kinetic Pump I Anti-Thermic Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
Im sure someone is going to have something negative to say about a fitting like the above but this has the sensor strength of a carrier, so let the falcons waste their jam cycles on you, locks pretty fast, does a pile of damage, remote reps and tanks on armor and brings a 24km point to the party for when your initial tackler has to run away. And with the ever increasing build prices on T2 ships due to the prom / dysp costs going through the roof, a cerberus is going to become more and more expensive to replace. Plus missile ships need to be on top of their targets due to flight time issues imo so sniping with heavies isnt ideal, especially on a HAC that is often described as mediocre...
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.02.26 07:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier I like the Cerberus but I'm worried that if I'm in one then I'l be picked off by enemy ships as a priority target when our side just has battleships mainly as well.
Cerbs really shine if you have lots of Falcon-style bookmarks set up already. Since you have Caldari Cruiser V, may I suggest putting some time in with a fast frigate making bookmarks around gates and stations that you're likely to be spending time fighting around? Being able to warp straight to a point 150Km from the enemy gang does the same for the Cerb (and Eagle, come to think of it) as it does for the falcon: transforms it from an irritating but fragile nuisance into a deadly menace.
With a big range tank like that, you can fill the cerb's mids with Sensor boosters and ECCM, and the lows with BCS II, as God intended, and be applying 400 DPS to the mid/large sized target of your choice.
Bookmarks, my friend. I'm serious. Start making them as a matter of habit.
Pro-TipÖ: think up a good naming convention before you start doing this. I use place-distance-orientation; eg: "Jita Gate 163Km below" for a bookmark in Perimeter. You don't need to specify system. This means when I am in Perimeter, all my Jita gate BMs are grouped together when I right click. That reduces confusion.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.02.26 09:43:00 -
[27]
If your gang is going into unbookmarked space, an option is to have an interceptor pilot MWD around acting as a mobile warp-to point. This will help your Falcons as well.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.02.26 09:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tractory I would always go with the raven as it doesnt cost the earth to replace if its insured. Warp in on top of your target, or sit off the gate in low sec and pound away with your torps:-
[Raven, torps and armor] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II
ECCM - Gravimetric II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution ECCM - Gravimetric II Warp Disruptor II Target Painter II
Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Large 'Arup' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Salvager I
Anti-Explosive Pump I Anti-Kinetic Pump I Anti-Thermic Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
Im sure someone is going to have something negative to say about a fitting like the above but this has the sensor strength of a carrier, so let the falcons waste their jam cycles on you, locks pretty fast, does a pile of damage, remote reps and tanks on armor and brings a 24km point to the party for when your initial tackler has to run away. And with the ever increasing build prices on T2 ships due to the prom / dysp costs going through the roof, a cerberus is going to become more and more expensive to replace. Plus missile ships need to be on top of their targets due to flight time issues imo so sniping with heavies isnt ideal, especially on a HAC that is often described as mediocre...
I like the design where you're not at the mercy of falcons.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.26 10:02:00 -
[29]
Your rigs fail. Just use trimarks and eanms in lows. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Tractory
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Posted - 2009.02.26 10:45:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Tractory on 26/02/2009 10:47:03 Agreed, tri-marks work better. I threw the rigs on very fast while sat at work and confess to not eft warrioring long enough on the fitting. At the end of the day the rigs take the ship from absolutely disposable to a 45mil isk hit if you die, but even at that cost its still an easier hit to the wallet than losing a cerb. I would necessarily go with eanms though, as statistically i think you come up against kin / therm damage more than exp / em but thats only an opinion and we all know what they say about those ;)
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