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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mara Villoso
Big Box The Toy Box
70
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:04:00 -
[61] - Quote
A clever, appropriate action for the Jita Burn event. I like this very much. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:04:00 -
[62] - Quote
Celebrate. |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:05:00 -
[63] - Quote
Being a goon is an exploit. Please stop this exploit! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6279
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:06:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:Sooner or later, CCP is going to have to come to grips with the "sandbox." If all content is player driven, then all content is player controlled. They can't let their game and their business be held hostage by a subgroup capable of manipulating the entire market, industrial base, and player experience. So you want them to shut down highsec?
Quote:However, its a slap in the face to the relevant playerbase that they've become a toy for another human being. No, that's pretty much by design and a rather direct effect of the move towards making everything in the game player-driven. You are here to prove me with content.
Jade Constantine wrote:Jita is the biggest trading hub in Eve and commercial capital of the caldari state. Is it that much of a stretch to believe that the npc leaders of the caldari state might set Goonswarm -10 for the duration? Yes, largely because it would completely violate the dynamics of the game. If someone managed to shut down Jita, it would move somewhere else, and that is the proper response GÇö artificially maintaining it makes no sense whatsoever. If they did that, then the Goons would be in a position to say that GÇ£hey, CCP, someone is invading Deklein, please sic some NPCs at themGÇ¥ GÇö after all, that would just be another player-made concentration of [whatever] that now needs NPC protection.
Quote:Best outcome is that Goonswarm get to burn jita to their heart's content and then the event team work out an appropriate sanction in roleplay terms to demonstrate there is a consequence to attacking the biggest trading hub in Eve. No, the best outcome is that the Goons mess up Jita for a while, and then the player base moves the hub farther away from the Goons so they'll be less inclined to mess with the next one. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
TWHC Assistant
2
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:08:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:TWHC Assistant wrote:What people do not seem to get is that the high price of Technetium is primarily caused by people fighting over it, but not by controlling it. You must be crazy. Two people competing with one another to sell an item they both have leads to competitive pricing. Cartels control the price for the purpose of raising it. In fact, the announcement of OTEC says EXACTLY THAT. Goons are more than two people. They will want to sell every bit of Technetium they get out of the moons. It will lead to a flooding and they would be stupid if they did not lower the price by i.e. 10% in order to sell 20% more. Profit is not defined by price alone, it is price * volume / time. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
210
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:14:00 -
[66] - Quote
Let the goons have their way. If there are no targets any more they will all celebrate their victories in a world where noone cares but themselves. It's ok to lose interest. Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1942
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:21:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Yes, largely because it would completely violate the dynamics of the game. If someone managed to shut down Jita, it would move somewhere else, and that is the proper response GÇö artificially maintaining it makes no sense whatsoever. If they did that, then the Goons would be in a position to say that GÇ£hey, CCP, someone is invading Deklein, please sic some NPCs at themGÇ¥ GÇö after all, that would just be another player-made concentration of [whatever] that now needs NPC protection.
Apologies if I misunderstand you.
But are you arguing that Goonswarm is too big to take consequence for ingame actions? I demonstrated that in the past a small alliance like Star Fraction has been punished by an npc organization for firing on its event actors. Which we were absolutely fine with. Why should Goonswarm be protected against the consequences of messing with an npc empire's sovereign space?
Here's the thing Tippia. You might not care about the roleplay side of eve and the way the npc's empires are pereceived by roleplayers in the game. But CCP themselves put a lot of effort into the backstory of New Eden and it is a bit ridiculous to consider that a massive attack on a commercial hub in Jita would not have some political consequences.
I'm not saying that CCP should intervene to STOP the goons burning Jita. Let them do it if they can. I am saying there should be consequences for their organization longer term.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Beckie DeLey
Brigade of Guards SpaceMonkey's Alliance
45
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:23:00 -
[68] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:I am saying there should be consequences for their organization longer term.
There are. They are pissing off a lot of people who will now surely come after them!
Oh wait. It's The Legendary Extraordinary Me |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
311
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:27:00 -
[69] - Quote
Nah, let GSF remain. Atleast all major dung in one pile, easier to find that way.
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Velicitia
Open Designs
879
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:28:00 -
[70] - Quote
VaMei wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Assuming worst case, that burn jita, the deathsquad, and the technitium monopoly all succeed, force a large player base from eve, and CCP opted to disbanded goons, how would you view this? That'd be the end of the sandbox, and time for me to move on.
much as I might dislike the goons (need someone to dislike, ever since BoB fell ... )
... pretty much this. |
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Niko Takahashi
United Starbase Systems
35
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
Othran wrote:Crap (active dev/GM interference) has been dropped in the "sandbox" from time to time.
People still believe in the sandbox.
BoB were once viewed in the same way as Goons are now. Things change, when they stop changing Eve is dead.
Pretty much this no matter how I personally dislike goons I think people are overreacting.
1. They are nowhere as powerful as most people think 2. They are not yet up to the point where the whole rest of the game will descent upon them as they did against bob 3. They are very much vulnerable to breaking under pressure from inside.
And if by any case all this fails CCP will just shuffle the moon goo again and break their back that way. |
Niko Takahashi
United Starbase Systems
35
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:30:00 -
[72] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Nah, let GSF remain. Atleast all major dung in one pile, easier to find that way.
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Jame Jarl Retief
Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne
35
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
Honestly? I wouldn't care one way or the other. I'm pretty sure most of EVE's player base also wouldn't give a toss either way.
On a purely theoretical level though, I'm against interference in a sandbox game. But I've yet to see one where developers or GMs didn't interfere or facilitate things for certain groups. So I feel it balances out somewhat.
As long as they are doing what they're doing within acceptable limits without intentionally attempting to do things like crash the server, they can do whatever they like as far as I'm concerned. But once behaviour crosses that line, I've been people banned in just about every MMO, so why should Goons in EVE be any different? |
Avid Bumhumper
Furian Necromongers
55
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:33:00 -
[74] - Quote
I doubt many people care about Jita burn or Goons in general. CCP is running such a broken game now.
What with a few large 0.0 Alliances making so much isk they couldn't possible spend it on anything other than ship replacement and new cars, the sandbox has filled up with cement. The moon-goo realignment made it possible for a few large alliances to control everything, have to wonder what they were thinking when they did it. No one can fight these Tech holders now, because no matter how good you are, you can't replace ships endlessly unless you already have the tech.
In game paradox, best dox.
My Tinfoil hat has been sugically implanted, so no,it is not for sale..... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6280
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:34:00 -
[75] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:But are you arguing that Goonswarm is too big to take consequence for ingame actions? No, I'm arguing that the Goons, having pissed off a whole bunch of players (and really no-one else), should have the consequences of those actions being meted out by players.
The example you showed was an alliance being punished for messing things up for (essentially) NPCsGǪ or game-master characters, which in ye olde pen-and-paper RPG days were the same thing. So their being given an NPC-related punishment made some sliver of sense.
In this case, though, the goons are going after players in a player-created environment where players have chosen to congregate en masse. The only special thing about it is that CCP has it on its own reinforced node, but that's not reason enough to have NPCs punish the goons for breaking up the party. If it causes any problems, it might be reason enough to punish the network technicians for not being able to reinforce the node of whatever new trading hub springs up from the ashes (should it actually go that far, which would be insanely awesome). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3515
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 19:40:00 -
[76] - Quote
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:Let the goons have their way. If there are no targets any more they will all celebrate their victories in a world where noone cares but themselves. It's ok to lose interest.
Fortunately, not all non-goons are terrible weaksauce scaredy-pusses like yourself. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
773
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 19:43:00 -
[77] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Assuming worst case, that burn jita, the deathsquad, and the technitium monopoly all succeed, force a large player base from eve, and CCP opted to disbanded goons, how would you view this?
Edited to add:
My apologies to all. I, in no way, was requesting CCP to disband Goons. I should have worded my initial post to reflect a more neutral manner of discussion such as, "what action on CCPs part would you view as going too far?". I just thought that disbanning an alliance would be a good starting point for such a discussion on what would be too much intervention in this game.
Again, my apologies.
Are you asking because you don't know how to feel yourself and need someone to tell you the popular opinion, or are you just secretly hoping someone will teach you how to spell "DISBAND"?
Here's your sign... |
Mara Villoso
Big Box The Toy Box
70
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:44:00 -
[78] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:Mara Villoso wrote:TWHC Assistant wrote:What people do not seem to get is that the high price of Technetium is primarily caused by people fighting over it, but not by controlling it. You must be crazy. Two people competing with one another to sell an item they both have leads to competitive pricing. Cartels control the price for the purpose of raising it. In fact, the announcement of OTEC says EXACTLY THAT. Goons are more than two people. They will want to sell every bit of Technetium they get out of the moons. It will lead to a flooding and they would be stupid if they did not lower the price by i.e. 10% in order to sell 20% more. Profit is not defined by price alone, it is price * volume / time. You completely misunderstood both OTEC and my comment. OTEC is not just Goonswarm, so the competition that might have been experienced by GSF selling against whoever else would have lead to price declines as they competed for the market. This is economics 101. The Cartel's STATED PURPOSE (srsly did you read it) is to raise the prices. |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
31
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:46:00 -
[79] - Quote
CCP disbanning the GOONs over Jita Burn? honestly I love the idea but....you should have known there would be one. Disbanning over the Jita burning would not solve anything they j start a new corp/alliance with a new name and still be the center of the drama llama **** storm that they love to create. i say just ban the lot for 30 dadys if they create problems via forum with an alt they missed ban them for another 90 days and if that still does not work perma ban them |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
62
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:52:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Assuming worst case, that burn jita, the deathsquad, and the technitium monopoly all succeed, force a large player base from eve, and CCP opted to disbanded goons, how would you view this?
Edited to add:
My apologies to all. I, in no way, was requesting CCP to disband Goons. I should have worded my initial post to reflect a more neutral manner of discussion such as, "what action on CCPs part would you view as going too far?". I just thought that disbanning an alliance would be a good starting point for such a discussion on what would be too much intervention in this game.
Again, my apologies.
Another Dumb Post, CCP has never said they would interfere, only drama queen posters have said that.
The whole thing is 100% made up drama queen bullshit.
Why would CCP care?
If they were going to give in to care bear whines they would have a long time ago.
*facepalm*
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Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
83
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:59:00 -
[81] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Assuming worst case, that burn jita, the deathsquad, and the technitium monopoly all succeed, force a large player base from eve, and CCP opted to disbanded goons, how would you view this?
Edited to add:
My apologies to all. I, in no way, was requesting CCP to disband Goons. I should have worded my initial post to reflect a more neutral manner of discussion such as, "what action on CCPs part would you view as going too far?". I just thought that disbanning an alliance would be a good starting point for such a discussion on what would be too much intervention in this game.
Again, my apologies. Are you asking because you don't know how to feel yourself and need someone to tell you the popular opinion, or are you just secretly hoping someone will teach you how to spell "DISBAND"?
You caught me. I really just wanted to learn how to spell all variants of disband before a big spelling test tomorrow.
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FeralShadow
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
95
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Posted - 2012.04.25 20:04:00 -
[82] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:A clever, appropriate action for the Jita Burn event. I like this very much.
I think this would be perfect as well. The caldari state should be rightly pissed that goonswarm is going to take so much income away from them, ganking capsuleers that would otherwise be paying rediculous amounts of sales taxes on buying/selling goods.
At any rate, Goons are just a long-lasting soap opera star in this series called All My Capsuleers. They get the most attention because they do the most visible stuff. Nothing new there, really. "I do believe in karma. -áThat means that whenever I do something sh**y to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1945
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 20:10:00 -
[83] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The example you showed was an alliance being punished for messing things up for (essentially) NPCsGǪ or game-master characters, which in ye olde pen-and-paper RPG days were the same thing. So their being given an NPC-related punishment made some sliver of sense.
Well not strictly so. It was an Event. There were players with their own agendas on both sides. Some were working against us, some wanted to defend Mordu's / SOE of course. It had an impact in their roleplay and understanding of the game world/
Tippia wrote:In this case, though, the goons are going after players in a player-created environment where players have chosen to congregate en masse. The only special thing about it is that CCP has it on its own reinforced node, but that's not reason enough to have NPCs punish the goons for breaking up the party. If it causes any problems, it might be reason enough to punish the network technicians for not being able to reinforce the node of whatever new trading hub springs up from the ashes (should it actually go that far, which would be insanely awesome).
I can see you have an argument for why they should take no consequence from the actions - but I still think its a bit weak and pathetic. Seriously, as the leader of a nihilistic armageddon-cult alliance the goonswarm exec should rejoice at being outlawed in response to this event. It would commemorate things in a way that forum whines never will.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
464
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Posted - 2012.04.25 20:11:00 -
[84] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:I think this would be perfect as well. The caldari state should be rightly pissed that goonswarm is going to take so much income away from them, ganking capsuleers that would otherwise be paying rediculous amounts of sales taxes on buying/selling goods. The amusing thing? The neutral alts and altcorps that are being used to trade and produce/compress in highsec. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Kinis Deren
EVE University Ivy League
43
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Posted - 2012.04.25 20:17:00 -
[85] - Quote
OP, I would feel that CCP had gone too far and broken the spirit of the sandbox completely. I'd also feel the same if CCP stepped in and did something outside of normal game play mechanics (or game balancing) to influence what happens during the Burn Jita, death squad and technitium initiatives.
I dislike GSF but I fully support their freedom in making of the sandbox what they will, within the confines of the EULA and TOS. |
Digital Messiah
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
200
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Posted - 2012.04.25 20:18:00 -
[86] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:Sooner or later, CCP is going to have to come to grips with the "sandbox." If all content is player driven, then all content is player controlled. They can't let their game and their business be held hostage by a subgroup capable of manipulating the entire market, industrial base, and player experience. While I'm sure they'd like to pretend that all that is necessary is occasional refereeing, its clear its going to take more than that to keep the game experience legitimate.
Consider the Goons farming of miners. They build the ships and sell them, they gank them, repeat. An entire profession has been turned into a mini-game where the miner is little more than an NPC. Nothing outwardly wrong with that. All within the rules. Frankly, its also a thing of certain beauty. However, its a slap in the face to the relevant playerbase that they've become a toy for another human being. Its not so much about PvP and blowing things up and don't fly what you can't... or any of that. This is a problem at the meta-level. Players and organizations that thrive on the idea of making other people miserable can be relied on to make people miserable. Miserable people don't want to pay for that experience, so they won't. The further this goes and the more obvious the manipulation becomes, the more people will realize that they are playing a game where the cards are stacked against them and the less likely they are to continue playing. If I were the paranoid type, I would think it pretty obvious that some people are doing what they're doing for precisely that reason. They're playing EVE at a whole different level; they're playing against Hilmar.
Between contracts, trading, and other market hubs, there is no reason why anyone has to even buy what GSF has to offer. In all honesty it would be better if everyone boycotted them. Sure it might hurt prices or availability for a while. But this is the sandbox and you can always find more sand to play with elsewhere. "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Dragon Outlaw
The Scope Gallente Federation
77
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Posted - 2012.04.25 20:31:00 -
[87] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:Mara Villoso wrote:A clever, appropriate action for the Jita Burn event. I like this very much. I think this would be perfect as well. The caldari state should be rightly pissed that goonswarm is going to take so much income away from them, ganking capsuleers that would otherwise be paying rediculous amounts of sales taxes on buying/selling goods. .
I agree as well...after all, the sandbox should also include the NPC governements of all four factions. When you create a universe where RL players and NPCs come across each other on a regular basis, one would expect to see some level of "reaction" from the 2nd group when the behaviour of the 1st group affects them (in good or bad).
It would be funny to see some CCP videos where characters from current Eve`s lore would mention some of the existing Player Alliances.
" So much blood has been spilled in the name of our faith. To many have died at the ends of Goonswarm Federation."...
just imagining here. |
Mara Villoso
Big Box The Toy Box
72
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Posted - 2012.04.25 20:37:00 -
[88] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mara Villoso wrote:Sooner or later, CCP is going to have to come to grips with the "sandbox." If all content is player driven, then all content is player controlled. They can't let their game and their business be held hostage by a subgroup capable of manipulating the entire market, industrial base, and player experience. So you want them to shut down highsec?
You seem to have misread my comment as an extension of the perpetual and perpetually-missing-the-point forum argument of "carebear vs pvper" or "hisec vs nosec" or "bad guys vs good guys." The issue here is that in a total sandbox it is entirely possible that a subgroup can take over the game. It doesn't MATTER which subgroup it is. Which was precisely my point: CCP is going to have to decide whether or not this is a total sandbox. Because if the power is in the hands of the players, you can be absolutely certain that some group will seek to extend that power as far as permitted.
Let's go totally into theory land for a moment: imagine that a single group managed to grab total control of technetium and ice. Imagine that instead of selling it, they kept it off the market. They provide their own industrial materials through mining, PI, etc. and simply withhold/deny the rest from/to everyone else. How long before EVE grinds to a halt? It would be totally within game rules and mechanics. But when does CCP step in and say, you know what, you're having an outsized effect on the game and it is affecting other players in an unintended way. When do they exert control over their own product?
I'm not here to argue the merits of any particular group's activities. Its irrelevant to do so if their actions are within the rules and mechanics. I'm simply commenting on the larger meta game. If anyone is getting caught up in reading this as Goon-specific, simply replace them in your mind with a group twice or three times that size. Imagine a coordinated group of 15k or 20k and what they could do if they put their minds to it.
(please don't bother telling me it isn't likely/probable/etc. That is irrelevant. It is definitely possible to do, however unlikely. You don't build things on the principle that bad things aren't likely. You build them so bad things can't happen at all.) |
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
87
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Posted - 2012.04.25 20:39:00 -
[89] - Quote
This seems really stupid... I dont even see how goons pewing jita is an in game offense? I mean dozens of people do it everyday that aren't goons.
Once again the notion even of this idea or a hypothetical is dumb. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
824
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 20:47:00 -
[90] - Quote
Why?
Goons are there to remind the players that no matter how terrible at the game you are, it could be worse.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
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