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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1511
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Posted - 2012.06.15 05:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Say I want to protect whatsits from harm. You have no idea what a whatsit is, so you go and shoot something. Would it be fair if I told you after you shot the thing that it was a whatsit and now you must be punished for shooting the protected whatsit?
On the flip side, getting concrete definitions is what you hire lawyers for. Does CCP want to get into space lawyering and trying to nail that slab of jelly to the wall?
How about this: if you want to gank people risk-free, stay out of rookie systems. The definition of rookie needs to be vague otherwise the wannabe gankers will attempt to game the system at the rookie's expense. Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1511
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 06:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:The Rookie Protection rule says it's illegal to mess with Rookies* in starter systems**.
*intentionally vaguely defined. **Needs to be defined.
The protection from loopholes is in the "mess with Rookies" part. The protection from confusion is in the definition of "starter system"
Fixed that for you. Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1513
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 23:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:RubyPorto wrote:The Rookie Protection rule says it's illegal to mess with Rookies* in starter systems**.
*intentionally vaguely defined. **Needs to be defined.
The protection from loopholes is in the "mess with Rookies" part. The protection from confusion is in the definition of "starter system" Fixed that for you. The current rule is that you cannot mess with Rookies in starter systems. Both parts of the protected class definition must be met to be eligible for protection. You can mess with Non-Rookies in starter systems. You can mess with rookies Outside starter systems.
That's right. Part of the definition is intentionally vague. The other part of the definition is concrete. The part of the rule that is intentionally vague is vague in order to prevent gaming of the rules by people who just want to find out where the line is that they shouldn't cross.
You can't define rookie by age of character, number of skill points, hours logged in or number of login sessions. Any of these do not indicate that a player has been through the tutorials or learned how to fly a ship. By the same token, having less than 1M SP doesn't mean that the player behind the character doesn't know what they're doing: that character could be intentional bait, it could be a disposable cyno alt: it could be anything other than a rookie.
Thus the definition of "rookie" falls to factors outside the qualities that you can perceive in-game, and thus the actual definition of rookie is meaningless to anyone who is not a GM. Attempting to find a definition that suits you as a player while still being useful to rookies and GMs is an exercise in futility: you are chasing an impossible dream.
So settle for the concrete fact that you are at risk of getting banned if you bait players in starter systems. Move your PvP elsewhere. If you must "PvP" in starter systems, be prepared to accept the possibility that the person who bought that hulk mining character has no idea about the rules of the game and has only been playing for a few hours.
Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1514
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 04:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:I don't frankly care how the GMs define a rookie internally, because we're discussing an externally facing rule.
I can't think of any "externally facing" rule that wouldn't be gamed by people to get innocent gankers such as yourself banned.
Here are a few ideas on what classifies as a rookie, using information we can determine by just looking at the character and the ship that they fly, without having to know account details or play history. Define a rookie as any character you encounter who satisfies 3 of the following conditions:
- Is flying a T1 frigate
- Is younger than three months
- Has fitting modules fitted (e.g.: coprocessor, MAPC, power diagnostic system)
- Is mining in a combat ship, or has weapons mounted on a mining ship (e.g.: someone trying to do the combat tutorials in a Navitas)
- Has civilian modules fitted
- Is carrying cargo only spawned in tutorial missions (encrypted codex or some such)
- Is a member of a starter NPC corporation
Of course, any definition that we as players come up with will necessarily conflict with whatever definition the GMs are using. At least this definition realistically allows any player to determine "rookie status" through in-game inspection of the other pilot. It can be gamed by having an older character flying a frigate with civilian modules and a PDS fitted: but then if you intentionally aggress a 4yo character flying a merlin with civilian modules fitted, you deserve what you get.
Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1521
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 06:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Here are a few ideas on what classifies as a rookie, using information we can determine by just looking at the character and the ship that they fly, without having to know account details or play history. Define a rookie as any character you encounter who satisfies 3 of the following conditions: The problem with that list is that it's easily gameable to provide protection to non-rookies.
No, it doesn't provide protection to anyone. The point of my definition was to provide guidance to players about who might or might not be safe to gank in rookie systems. The GMs have access to better information than us. I purposefully use the type of diagnosis applied to psychological or medical conditions because in those fields we also lack perfect information and are required to work on only that information that we can perceive.
Sure, you might be after a definition which is sealed in GM blood which allows players to determine who is safe to gank or not. Such a binding definition would be gamed far more easily then my suggested definition for player-diagnosis or other-player rookie status. To provide such a binding definition would also require exposing private information about the player behind the character.
So as a ganker, you could use the suggested diagnosis tool and avoid ganking people who are likely to be rookies.
The fascination with hard and fast rules implies that a lot of people are interested in gaming any rules that exist, more than they are interested in helping new players learn how to play the game.
Quote:They have one in-house, and it depends on variables that are not available to outsiders. This makes it a rather useless and near-impossible policy to follow for those outsiders. This once again points to a policy that works without defining rookies as being a better option.
So you would prefer that GMs use a policy about not trapping new players with complex game mechanics, that doesn't even attempt to define what makes a "new player"? Perhaps a blanket ban on can flipping and baiting in starter systems? Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
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