Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Ehranavaar
|
Posted - 2009.03.01 17:16:00 -
[1]
one of the screwy things with eve is that large ships are often at the mercy of frigates. this is well just nuts because if you look at large ships they have mounted a variety of different sized weapons to deal with different sized threats.
eve however only gives you 7 or 8 high slots and generally that doesn't let you mount any weapons suitable to deal with frigate sized pests without gimping your ability to fight other large ships.
i propose adding a module which contains either 4 small guns or 2 med guns. the stats for this module to be based on generic average guns rather than letting the player load the module with his own choices. a large ship would be able to mount one perhaps 2 of these modules and this would give some ability to fight somewhat effectively against frigate sized ships without overly impairing your real mission of fighting other large ships. neither i think would this make your own support frigates etc useless as they can mount better weapons and gain the value of their ship bonus.
this would be quite helpful to bs and i don't think it would hurt eve.
|
Neesmah
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.03.01 17:26:00 -
[2]
It would be more realistic yes, every spaceship you've seen on tv or in a film, can kill small ships, with lots of smaller guns, but, the obvious reason that this is not in the game is because it would completely kill any roles for small ships in pvp. You would have to fight in a big ship, there would be no need for frigates, you have to balance off your firepower vs your likelyhood of being tackled and ganked, if you dont want to be tackled then go for a small ship? or perhaps fit a smart bomb, or use some good old warrior 2's. BS already have anti frigate capabilities, but there are by no means effective, which is the way it should be. Immensea |
Stick Cult
|
Posted - 2009.03.01 17:28:00 -
[3]
It would be good, but then small ships couldn't kill larger ones, making them near useless..
|
ITTigerClawIK
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
|
Posted - 2009.03.01 18:56:00 -
[4]
Cap ships really need this, but anything smaller. no
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Ineun
Minmatar Internal Anarchy
|
Posted - 2009.03.02 01:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: ITTigerClawIK Cap ships really need this, but anything smaller. no
moros + light drones, :) ohai i is your resident Socialist... |
Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
|
Posted - 2009.03.02 08:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Neesmah It would be more realistic yes, every spaceship you've seen on tv or in a film...
Oh the irony
well mannered a**h*** |
Rhinanna
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.03.02 08:30:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Rhinanna on 02/03/2009 08:36:46 Like cap ships aren't powerful enough already........
Do you really want cap ships to be able to destroy anything to the point where theres no real point taking anything OTHER than a cap ship into PvP?????
Oh as for ever large ship in TV/film been effective vs smaller ships....
BSG - Relies on it's Vipers for anti-fighter defence (barrage guns are a 2nd line of defence, as shown not as effective, mainly there to try and blow up long range missiles)
Space above and beyond - Fighter vs Fighter again, big ships suck against them.
Wing Commander (games and film) - Fighter vs Fighter again, big ships have trouble hitting them
So not every TV and film by a long way
|
Ehranavaar
|
Posted - 2009.03.02 18:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Stick Cult It would be good, but then small ships couldn't kill larger ones, making them near useless..
the current state of affairs is pretty silly. several t1 frigates can destroy a bs because the game rules are literally silly. tracking is a pretty dubious idea as you don't point the great big gun at where the little ship is you point it at where the little ship will be when the shell arrives. light drones against player frigates is a fairly weak defense because the players will just shoot the drones down and then carry on with chewing on the bs.
the point defense module isn't good enough to replace a player frigate but it is good enough to give the bs a sporting chance of driving off a frigate without gimping it's fit for it's primary function.
|
Neesmah
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.03.02 23:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rhinanna Edited by: Rhinanna on 02/03/2009 08:36:46
So not every TV and film by a long way
So....... all big ships in TV/Film have some form of effective counter against small ships? with lots of smaller guns? technicaly i didnt say these smaller guns were on the "mothership".
I think it would be a nice idea (perhaps not a good idea however) to have larger ships have more efective defenses against smaller ships, but this be countered with some ability for the smaller ship pilots to in essence dodge these defences. Ultimatly its not to difficult to say orbit a bs in an inty, and providing they dont have a web, your safe from that ship essentially, yes you can be killed but its unlikely.
Don't ask me how any kind of dodging system would work, i doubt it would, but it would add alot more involvment. Immensea |
Sigras
|
Posted - 2009.03.02 23:37:00 -
[10]
Only if i get to fly my X-Wing down your thermal exhaust port and fire a single photon torpedo to destroy your death star
|
|
Marcus Gideon
Gallente Excessive Force
|
Posted - 2009.03.03 01:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sigras Only if i get to fly my X-Wing down your thermal exhaust port and fire a single photon torpedo to destroy your death star
"Only if I get to fly my Assault Frigate down your thermal exhaust port and fire a single Light Missile to destroy your Titan." *fixed* --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
|
Posted - 2009.03.03 01:36:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ehranavaar one of the screwy things with eve is that large ships unexperienced pilots are often at the mercy of frigates.
Fixed that for you.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Jin Labarre
|
Posted - 2009.03.03 02:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ehranavaar this is well just nuts because if you look at large ships they have mounted a variety of different sized weapons to deal with different sized threats.
If you are referring to real naval ships, return to your history books and take a look at the Falkland war. Keyword: Exocet missile. Today, any ship large enough to launch an anti-ship missile can take down the largest type of ships around. Why do you think carriers operate in carrier groups, protected by dozens of smaller ships like frigates, cruisers and destroyers?
Originally by: Ehranavaar eve however only gives you 7 or 8 high slots and generally that doesn't let you mount any weapons suitable to deal with frigate sized pests without gimping your ability to fight other large ships.
That is what you have drones for. Light drones + webber = dead frigates.
The easiest way to achieve some kind of compromise would be to fix the dual cannons in EVE. As they are now, they make absolutely no sense at all and if they were brought in line with their description, they would be the best in the way of what you are looking for, yet not gamebreaking.
|
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2009.03.03 02:12:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 03/03/2009 02:13:59 OP makes no sense. You already -can- fit smaller-sized guns on your battleship to fend off smaller targets. It's just a horrifically ****ty idea since it's space you could be using to mount size-appropriate guns, and big ships have plenty of other ways to deal with small ships.
In fact, as far as logic goes, I'd argue most of the other sci-fi big ships are unrealistic in that regard.
That's from an RP perspective. From a gameplay perspective, you want big ships to be solopwnmobiles, which is just a horribad idea.
Also, people can stop with the analogies to other sci-fi settings. This is not Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, or anything else. It's EVE. EVE is a unique setting that is incredibly detailed and fleshed out courtesy of CCP. I'd go so far as to say that, if you get into the backstory, there's easily as much or more backstory to EVE than there is to virtually any other setting.
Stop trying to turn the uniqueness that is EVE into some other setting.
|
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
|
Posted - 2009.03.03 02:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jin Labarre The easiest way to achieve some kind of compromise would be to fix the dual cannons in EVE. As they are now, they make absolutely no sense at all and if they were brought in line with their description, they would be the best in the way of what you are looking for, yet not gamebreaking.
Exactly this. I agree and have always thought it would be a good idea to modify them like that.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2009.03.03 02:22:00 -
[16]
Quote: The easiest way to achieve some kind of compromise would be to fix the dual cannons in EVE. As they are now, they make absolutely no sense at all and if they were brought in line with their description, they would be the best in the way of what you are looking for, yet not gamebreaking.
Having battleship-sized DPS with cruiser-sized tracking is bad, mkay?
|
Easley Thames
The Maverick Navy Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.03.03 02:31:00 -
[17]
Do not want.
The game does not need to conform to the "bigger = better" philosophy. Comparing a frigate and a battleship is like comparing a dagger and a sledge-hammer. They each have strengths and weaknesses. Furthermore, they must be used properly to be effective.
If you are solo in a BS you should fit to counter tacklers (heavy neut, smart bombs, light drones or even ewar). If you are in a gang, bring some anti-support ships. A BS shouldn't crush everything smaller simply "because it is bigger."
Eve once favored large ships heavily. There was no tracking and damage mods had no stack penalties. You can imagine how BS's handled frigates (and everything else) in those days. Thankfully balancing occurred and eventually BS fell into specific roles instead of being "pwnmobiles."
However, Since Quantum Rise larger ships have gained significantly over even the more-expensive T2 cruisers and interceptors thanks to the removal of speed-tanking as a viable choice for most ships. The only frigates that were buffed were assault ships (and that was an indirect buff - they still are missing one of their T2 bonuses).
With the sudden spike in t2 ship costs and BS prices remaining static I can't imagine why anyone would be expected to pay 25 mil for a frigate that will just get melted tackling a BS.
As for point defense of a capital? If it takes a turret or missile hardpoint this could be acceptable but I don't think dreads were intended to counter sub-capitals (especially not frigates). Carriers/moms and titans already handle sub-capitals (although they require support). I'm wary of making capitals too strong against sub-caps because we could end up with capital ships online. IMO being able to kill a stupid dread pilot who thought his ship made him invincible against a rag-tag band of small ships with courage and skill is a great part of the game. |
Ehranavaar
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Ok, to add something more constructive, frigates (mind the plural) destroying a battleship is absolutely not silly. Actually it's pretty much realistic, and apart from that, good for game balance. Today a single small submarine can sink an aircraft carrier. Why shouldn't an organized and trained group of small ships be able to destroy a single battleship in EVE?
the problem with your analogy is that eve isn't modelled after modern combat it seems to be based more on ww2 era combat. nothing in eve short of a ddd is anything like a one shot kill weapon like a modern torp or sunbeam missile is likely to be on a frigate much less a real warship.
if you strip away the torpedoes (which eve does) i think you'd have to agree that an Iowa or Bismark captain being told he was about to be attacked by 3 or 4 frigates or destroyers wouldn't exactly be soiling himself at the thought of annoying pests with popguns messing up the paint job on his battleship.
given the rules in eve no navy would bother building battleships when they could buy dozens of fully fitted frigates in place of each bs forgone.
you can make a feeble sort of argument based on "game balance" but as soon as you try to drag in "real world considerations" the goofiness of the existing rules become rather blatantly obvious.
|
Ehranavaar
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 03/03/2009 02:13:59 OP makes no sense. You already -can- fit smaller-sized guns on your battleship to fend off smaller targets. It's just a horrifically ****ty idea since it's space you could be using to mount size-appropriate guns, and big ships have plenty of other ways to deal with small ships.
That's from an RP perspective. From a gameplay perspective, you want big ships to be solopwnmobiles, which is just a horribad idea.
thank you for reinforcing what i was saying in the OP.
and no putting a point def module on doesn't make a bs a solopwnmobile. would however give the bs pilot an option for those days when he doesn't have anyone around to fly support for him.
|
Madcat Adams
Amarr Romulan Technologies Limited
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 19:10:00 -
[20]
Smart bombs seem to be the only thing in Eve that really comes close to point defense guns. Problem being, fitting the things is extremely dangerous for the ship pilot himself. Fix that, perhaps give some module the ability to extend their range, and problem fixed.
Honestly, big ships should carry point defense guns. Simple logic dictates, that a battleship should be able to carry more guns than a destroyer. However, Eve mechanics don't allow for this. I've always tried to imagine that those guns were actually gun batteries.. otherwise, it totally shatters immersion in Eve.
Oh, the fellow that stated Galactica has problems handling fighters... you should watch more BSG. Their only problem seems to be the large numbers of cylon fighters. Because otherwise, they totally shred entire attack flights with those beautiful guns of theirs. Tactically, they use a WWII style of flack cannons, a very intersting approach in sci fi.
|
|
Grarr Dexx
Amarr Broski Enterprises
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 19:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Madcat Adams Smart bombs seem to be the only thing in Eve that really comes close to point defense guns. Problem being, fitting the things is extremely dangerous for the ship pilot himself. Fix that, perhaps give some module the ability to extend their range, and problem fixed.
Honestly, big ships should carry point defense guns. Simple logic dictates, that a battleship should be able to carry more guns than a destroyer. However, Eve mechanics don't allow for this. I've always tried to imagine that those guns were actually gun batteries.. otherwise, it totally shatters immersion in Eve.
Oh, the fellow that stated Galactica has problems handling fighters... you should watch more BSG. Their only problem seems to be the large numbers of cylon fighters. Because otherwise, they totally shred entire attack flights with those beautiful guns of theirs. Tactically, they use a WWII style of flack cannons, a very intersting approach in sci fi.
Logic in Eve? How about inertia, micro-warp drives, lasers having color, sound in space?
|
Rhinanna
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 19:23:00 -
[22]
Errr, I suggest you watch BSG again.
The flak screen is a final line of defence vs fighters, not a main defence.
Yes there are a lot of cylons which always causes problems but the glactica's flak screen has some problems.
1: Its not effective on all sides, has only limited coverage (about 60' x 40' of the arcs) so it can be outflanked. 2: A fair number of ships get through it (several eps showed this) 3: Its range fixed so once a fighter gets through it, there isn't much more the Glactica can do about the fighter after that - much like eve where the BS has a chance to hit when the tracking is still low because of range. One decent volley from a BS will wipe out a frig :)
|
Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 19:49:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 04/03/2009 19:49:49
Originally by: Rhinanna Errr, I suggest you watch BSG again.
The flak screen is a final line of defence vs fighters, not a main defence.
Yes there are a lot of cylons which always causes problems but the glactica's flak screen has some problems.
1: Its not effective on all sides, has only limited coverage (about 60' x 40' of the arcs) so it can be outflanked. 2: A fair number of ships get through it (several eps showed this) 3: Its range fixed so once a fighter gets through it, there isn't much more the Glactica can do about the fighter after that - much like eve where the BS has a chance to hit when the tracking is still low because of range. One decent volley from a BS will wipe out a frig :)
My Sentinel agrees. How many times haven't I been shot down due to a lucky strike on the initial zigzag approach? ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die. |
Madcat Adams
Amarr Romulan Technologies Limited
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 20:08:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Madcat Adams on 04/03/2009 20:08:51
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Logic in Eve? How about inertia, micro-warp drives, lasers having color, sound in space?
Those are very minor hicups. Ships have some inertia, and thrusters could be canceling the drifting. Warp drive has been described in physics, so a micro warp drive isn't a biggie. Lasers could have color, unless there is something in science that proves otherwise. In fact smaller ones, like the pointers and such, do have colored beams. No reason a millitary grade laser couldn't end up with one. Sound... *shrugs* well it would get awfully boring without it, lets not nitpick.
Anyway, your taking basic warship design logic, and comparing it to matters of physics.
Originally by: Rhianna
Errr, I suggest you watch BSG again.
The flak screen is a final line of defence vs fighters, not a main defence.
Yes there are a lot of cylons which always causes problems but the glactica's flak screen has some problems.
1: Its not effective on all sides, has only limited coverage (about 60' x 40' of the arcs) so it can be outflanked. 2: A fair number of ships get through it (several eps showed this) 3: Its range fixed so once a fighter gets through it, there isn't much more the Glactica can do about the fighter after that - much like eve where the BS has a chance to hit when the tracking is still low because of range. One decent volley from a BS will wipe out a frig :)
1. At maxium range the Galactica pitches itself, to bring the maxium number of guns to bear, creating the "flak screen." First off, she can pitch pretty easily from what we see in show. Inside and past that, the kill zone I think they refer to it, the guns would still be effective. Not as effective, but effective. Difference between volly fire, and engaging on multiple sides for any warship. If you notice, they actually carry auto cannons along the sides, while the flak guns are mostly mounted on top. And of course, we just don't know what is mounted on the bottom. Just cuz they produce hasn't shot it, doesn't mean it isn't there. But I'll agree probably less than on top. In ship to ship, they probably assumed building the thing that pitching wouldn't be a problem till the ship was dead anyways.
2. Yeah, some fighters get through. That only makes sense. The ideal of a point defense gun is something that can shoot down small ships at close range. But no point defense is impentrable. Still, how many do they kill that don't get through?
3. As mentioned in 1, I'm fairly sure if they stopped vollying, the guns on the ship could still fire against fighters. At the very least, the auto cannons should be able to fire at them. Just like in modern naval warefare, they can't hit everything. That's why we still use fighters along with the point defense guns/missles/interceptor systems.
Come on, look at the size of those battleships. I could make the crew put on vac suits and lean out the windows with laser rifles, to get some kind of anti frigate fire. When there should just be more guns squeezed onto the thing. And any sensible navy would send back warships that big with only 8 guns (okay, 16 if you count the doubles we see graphically.)
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |