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Radioactive Bear	Posted - 2009.03.05 17:22:00 - [121] - Quote about the blast, i belive that even a supernova blast wouldn't create the wormholes. maybe those wormholes were there all the time but that isogen-5 blast send a frequency that enable us to find them (to be aware of them). my reason for this conclusion is that it's imposible (even for a science-fiction story) that a single blast in ONE PLACE could do so many time-distance ruptures (wormholes) ALL OVER the eve universe in so little time. i belive that the blast went through the wormholes not that the wormholes were created by the blast. and also the blast frequency reached the sleepers grounds thus waking them up. just my thoughts
Internet Knight Amok.	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:44:00 - [122] - Quote Originally by: Eventy One blah blah blah Your thoughts on life and such are different than mine. Notwithstanding that, it seems to me like you haven't really been playing for very long. Playing the missions and doing exploration can help you piece together a puzzle about the backstory of these events. In my opinion, you're the one that's trying to make EVE mirror reality by explaining your anger with real calculations and such and not explaining exactly what in the story is "non-conformative". ---
Cole Skywalker	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:11:00 - [123] - Quote AMAZING chronicle this one was. Like all in the End of the world series. I have only one question on this. The Eve universe is, if I recall correctly, around 20000+ years after our time(not sure about that). Now to my knowledge after the fall of the EVE gate, the colonies were weakened, and many people died until the Jovians and the other races resurfaced. So many years later, how are we sure that mankind other than Jovians(who almost immediately resurfaced from said cataclysmic event) , consider themselves human? Do they remember they are actually descendents of a race that began it's life many thousand years ago, on a small planet named Earth? I'm asking this due to the name of the chronicle(We Humans) and the statement that includes these words, used by captain Kotan, in his attempt to turn the drones to his cause.

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:23:00 - [124] - Quote Originally by: Cole Skywalker AMAZING chronicle this one was. Like all in the End of the world series. I have only one question on this. The Eve universe is, if I recall correctly, around 20000+ years after our time(not sure about that). Now to my knowledge after the fall of the EVE gate, the colonies were weakened, and many people died until the Jovians and the other races resurfaced. So many years later, how are we sure that mankind other than Jovians(who almost immediately resurfaced from said cataclysmic event) , consider themselves human? Do they remember they are actually descendents of a race that began it's life many thousand years ago, on a small planet named Earth? I'm asking this due to the name of the chronicle(We Humans) and the statement that includes these words, used by captain Kotan, in his attempt to turn the drones to his cause. This is a theme (Earth-specific words) that comes up fairly often. Here's my take on it: Nobody in the EVE cluster is speaking contemporary English; that's pretty much a given. You can assume that everything you read is "actually" spoken in whatever tongues the speakers are fluent in, and the English is basically a translation. So, for example, the Gallente surely have a word for their race, and it's surely not written "h-u-m-a-n" (they quite likely don't have the same alphabet even). However, to present that in English for the purposes of players actually reading it, the sense is clearly "Human"; if you translate it to say "Ascheba" (because let's assume it's the closest phonetic equivalent, which it actually isn't), you're losing meaning and making your translation inconsistent. So instead, we render their word for themselves as "Human" in the text we right, just as we render the Caldari's word for a bird they associate with death and power as "Raven"; even though they're not talking about ravens that we'd recognise as ravens (they may be pink, for example), the sense is the same, which is what matters. You can in this way assume that any Earth-related words that pop up in EVE texts are simply a good equivalence rather than an accurate and direct reference. (My personal interpretation, not to be taken as gospel at this time.)

Smoke Adian Caldari Northern Storm	Posted - 2009.03.05 23:17:00 - [125] - Quote Edited by: Smoke Adian on 05/03/2009 23:18:29 Originally by: SadisticSavior Quote: Who says that mechanical or computational evolution, is sufficient for life? Mechanical or computational evolution extrapolated, merely results in greater complexity ... NOT LIFE. How are you making a distinction? Any sufficiently complex system can appear infinite. How do you know people are any different from those drones? How do you know our "programming" (Biology + Experiences) is not simply a more complex version of what they have? It could just be a matter of scale. So I disagree with your analysis. Yes, complexity alone may be sufficient for life. We have no evidence to prove that "life" is not simply a finite system that is too complex for us to understand. So in the EVE universe it is reasonable to assume that programming that is sufficiently complex is "alive". Quote: Even in the EVE universe, this view is clearly suggested, that the basis for life is not physical. It is part of this universes' core-assumptions. How can we leap from clone to clone, materially separate things, and still be the same person? The EVE universe suggest that what makes us alive, is not our physical parts, our body, our clones; but rather our memories, our experiences, our metaphysical self. How do you quantify a "metaphysical self"?? How do you know it exists at all? No, to the contrary, the EVE universe suggests (via things like Jump Clones) that we have no "metaphysical self"...that we are ultimately just a very very complex program. I agree we need more details on how drone AI works to make stories like this more believable. But I think the story is certainly consistent with the EVE universe as it has been described so far. Great chronicle! Couldn't agree w/ you more sadistic. People can try all they wish but at the end of the day, how does one measure consciousness? There is simply no way. When it comes to the 'mind' you only have one to experiment on: your own, and it's a deceptive little monkey. This question of attaining 'intelligent life' (i.e. consciousness)outside the realm of biology has been around awhile. Norbert Wiener and Ray Kurzweil are well known as pioneers in the cybernetics field. If you're interested in this kind of stuff you should pick up The Human Use of Human Beings by Weiner or The Age of Spiritual Machines by Kurzweil (although I don't have much respect for Kurzweil, but that's another topic :) ). Or for more fun, you could just watch The Prestige. Yay! Personally I don't believe it will ever be possible to achieve consciousness outside of a biological system, but that's just an opinion in a huge wasteland of debated ideas. If fiction didn't step outside the realm of reality it wouldn't be any fun! :) And yes, as Sadastic mentioned, EVE already assumes that Kurzweil's wild dreams of brain uploads and transfers are already a reality (downloading to clones, etc).
Letheeth Kayl Amarr Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.03.06 01:35:00 - [126] - Quote Originally by: Pesets Originally by: Letheeth Kayl You're forgetting scale of time. We have no idea how old these drones are. Not that old. You cut out the next sentence there Pesets, and it was the most important of the paragraph. The rogue drones originating from the Gallente Amarrian drones are only a few decades old, but rogue drones could be a recurring problem for civilizations. While that's only wild speculation on my part, I brought out the example of salinization of the soil to try to show a parallel to support my argument. Salinization destroyed civilizations in ancient times, and is a huge problem still, today, as it destroys farmland and assists in the abandonment and desertification of land the world over. Something real to parallel something fictitious. (Switching topics) As for the whole argument about machines ever being able to obtain life, and then trying to use ourselves as a base line guide, here's a little can of worms. We. Are. Animals. The only thing that sets us apart from chimpanzees, ravens, dolphins, and others, is our ability to communicate. We're doing it right now, you do it every time you speak to another person, or even write. Something you wrote ten years ago can be read to day, and will (likely) be understood. This is a superior form of communication, and from it, we've been able to build our repertoire of responses to certain impetuses. Using the baseline psychology tests reserved for humans on animals and their actions, it has been deduced: either psychology has to be drastically revamped to account for these new inconsistencies, or animals are self aware in a greater capacity than was originally thought. An example (and this will probably go over some people) is the Scrub Jay. The bird steals food, and understands that other birds (particularly other Jays) will try to do the same. To protect its food stash, a Jay will uncover, and then move a stash to a new (and hopefully secret) location if it observed another Jay watching it hide the food. To be able to understand another jay would steal the food is to show a precursory understanding of self, trust, and an ability to break said trust when it is beneficial. Many people will say I (and those who helped form these opinions) am projecting onto animals, but these are not isolated events, spanning a vast range of species, and within species a plethora of actions. I am afraid those that denounce me will have to change their yard sticks, because I'm using theirs right now. Put down the mirror and return to live With pain With sin With despair Live with penance in God's glory Lesson of Tobias and the Mirror Scriptures Verses26-29
JirAnarion Atriedes Caldari Es and Whizz	Posted - 2009.03.06 17:40:00 - [127] - Quote More proof that Thukkers are the ****zle. Hedonistic Imperative: Recruiting open-minded and far-flying Thukker-types since 2006.
Alcazabedabra	Posted - 2009.03.08 09:22:00 - [128] - Quote The theme of EVE Online is the blurring of the line between Man and Machine. Rogue sentient drones are a perfect example of this. Man, through sentient thought and reason, can defeat hardwired instincts and inhibitions and rise above the apparent capabilities of the human body. The body is secondary to what Man is. If a machine can acquire sufficient sentience to act contrarily to its programming for the purpose of higher survival, then that machine can perhaps be said to be alive. Perhaps these machines are inhabited by living beings? Must the human spirit necessarily manifest itself as a human body?
Dr Karsun Gallente Empire News	Posted - 2009.03.08 10:38:00 - [129] - Quote Well, I've read quite a few bad comments about it here. I personally am quite surprised about what happened, their decision. Especially the drones decision. I understand that the humans choice was between taking the weapon and destroying eden, probably together with everyone they knew, or destroying it, together with all the technology, sacraficing them selves, but allowing humanity to live further. I can understan that choice really, in fact, probably most people would make that choice if they were in such a situation. The thing that bothers me is why they decided to also kill them selves there. The captain, anyone could have sacraficed to do that, I think, no need for everyone to die. Or the drones them selves could have done that, if they opened the hive, they might as well blasted the isogen. But this way, it looks so dramatic :) Nice. Never the less, grand decision, captain. I'm sure this event will be long remembered salutes And thanks for these chronicles, they are amazing :D ------------------------ http:/
eWrath Caldari Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive	Posted - 2009.03.09 16:47:00 - [130] - Quote Regardless of the negative feedback I've read so far in this thread, I have to say: Well done. To people who dispute the possibility of "sentient machines", Let me tell you this: If nanobot technology was all that possible nowadays, and if I possessed a huge amount of them (an average Amarr battleship has its armor composed of layers over layers of nanites, that's like.. millions of trillions of them, right?), the first thing I would do is to program them to connect like biological neurons do, in an organic brain, that's enough brainpower to find the ultimate question of Life, the Universe, and Everything; and to answer that question simultaneously. Stuff for geeks: Before we get started, I must state one crucial fact: Memory is the baseline for intelligence, and sentience ensues. Let's get into Neurobiology, if you study the field, you'll find that the mathematical representation of your "sentience"/memory is in fact a huge array with an astronomical number of bounds and near-infinite entries (as in, floating-point/decimal indices), that would look like this: Output[x] = Memory(Input1, Input2, Input3, ..., x) In this array, each entry in the array represents a possibility, a possibility is the state of all sensory inputs and internal states (some neural microcircuits can provide their own inputs, a la: internal clock), some biological states such as the presence of certain hormones/brain chemicals may also contribute as input data, feed-back circuits that channel previous outputs as new inputs do exist and do influence the system too; this makes the brain the closest thing to an "infinite state machine", for the lack of a better term. The outputs are connected to nerves that channel commands to every single muscle in your body (except for the myocardium, heart muscles get their own "controller"), and glands that control secretions in the blood, affecting its performance in various ways, amongst other things. Learning happens by adjusting the values in the "Memory" array, to find the optimal outputs for a certain possibility, in a real neural network/brain, this happens by adjusting thresholds of neurons and weights on the synapses connecting them, this is the simplest description I can verse, and I won't go deeper into this for now. The only measure of detail here is the number of neurons (finite) versus the number of possibilities (infinite). Thus, more neurons means more precision, and naturally, more memory, more intelligence, and at a certain threshold, "sentience" emerges. If you can comprehend the big picture above, now imagine if each neuron could do computer logic too (AND/OR/XOR/NOT), and I don't mean learn them collaboratively with neighboring neurons like biological ones do, but have them as built-in functions WITHIN the neuron, and that's a trivial task to a nanobot with that tech level, I'd say. You may dispute (and I would agree), the possibility of a sentient machine that uses linear memory storage like current computers do, but one that imitates a biological construct may as well succeed in exhibiting the same behavior. ----- Beware miners with guns!


CCP Abraxas	Posted - 2009.03.10 17:32:00 - [131] - Quote Last story will be published tomorrow, March 11. Hope you guys enjoyed the downtime news.

Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.03.10 17:52:00 - [132] - Quote Just realized that this 'We Humans" is fitting to "I Robot" -------- Ideas for: Mining
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.03.10 18:19:00 - [133] - Quote Originally by: CCP Abraxas Hope you guys enjoyed the downtime news. Absolutely! I had hoped for more explanaitions of those wormholes suddenly appearing all over. Or at least a discovery that they are appearing at all - only two brief notes there. But it is said we should stay tuned for another story! Oh, and also the model of the molten planet is really great. Looks like hell incarnate ... those poor souls on the (former) planet ...
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.03.10 20:11:00 - [134] - Quote Downtime story was good but as I feared the Sleepers just appeared out of nowhere and we automatically know who and what they are. No explanation of how we know the drones are sleepers. Know explanation of why pilots would meet these new ships and automatically go and call them sleepers. There should have been a story about a archaeologists in a wormhole finding some old relic/drone and linking it to the sleepers of old. After which eveyone starts calling the new drones sleeper drones. Or something along those lines. I hope its explained in tomorrows story. As for the news if the planet was blown up the ship shouldn't have been able to warp to the planet then find there is no planet. Without the planet gravity well to lock onto the ship would never have made it into warp. Ships need gravity wells either real ones or ones produced by technology to know when to come out of warp. I suppose it could have been in warp then the planet got hit. Do our ships only need gravity wells to enter warp? So what does happen if the gravity well vanish in mid warp? Do the ships get stuck in warp, drop out of warp or just act as normal? Those people saying don't warp to the planet are odd, why would they say that knowing that almost no one could warp to it? ______ How to Passive Shield Tank
Slawomir Venera Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2009.03.10 20:39:00 - [135] - Quote Originally by: eWrath Thus, more neurons means more precision, and naturally, more memory, more intelligence, and at a certain threshold, "sentience" emerges. Your post is beautiful, but for this clause: Sentience does not necessarily emerge. We simply do not know whether this is an expected emergent behavior or just a fluke of nature. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
eWrath Caldari Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive	Posted - 2009.03.11 03:50:00 - [136] - Quote Originally by: Slawomir Venera Your post is beautiful, but for this clause: Sentience does not necessarily emerge. We simply do not know whether this is an expected emergent behavior or just a fluke of nature. Thank you, and you raise a valid point, but let's define sentience. In my own belief, Sentience is self-awareness, the ability to question one's existence and justify it. So, what differentiates humans (as sentient beings) from animals for example? We communicate? so do animals. We have emotions? so do animals. (if you have a pet, you'll know what I mean) We build a social structure? so do animals. (flocks, etc) We imagine, then we invent; they do not. (although I do believe they have some form of primal and immediate imagination) So, the question now becomes, what is is Imagination, and how does it work? If you look at this from the same perspective as I do, you can define imagination as the ability of making up new memories, or altering old ones. Right now I can close my eyes, and imagine a gigantic structure, a beautiful woman, a dreamy melody, a fine piece of art, a smell of a perfume, or even have someone say something they never said to me before in their own voice, all in my head. How does the human mind do this? Quote: ScarryFs thesis was given some support by a PET study that demonstrated that reading words denoting color will stimulate regions of the temporal cortex adjacent to those involved in the perception of color, and reading words denoting action will stimulate areas in the temporal cortex that register the perception of motion (Martin, Haxby, et al. 1995). This study is consistent with the contention that imagination imitates perception both experientially and neurologically. (Arnold H. Modell, Imagination and the Meaningful Brain) Let's do an experiment, close your eyes, and try to imagine a cube, as simple as that; a cube. You can almost see it, but not quite, correct? This is because of the "feedback" mechanism I mentioned above, you only see a figment of the cube, and not a real cube, because the information is fed to the visual cortex, instead of the LGN, the visual cortex only receives the "description" of said cube. Now try to retain that cube in your imagination for as long as possible, you'll find that you can't retain the image unless you imagine it rotating, etc; and you'll also find it near-impossible to retain that image if you don't keep on repeating the word "cube" in your head. This is because the feedback/feedforward mechanisms also have a decay property in the way they function, when the information is constantly the same, it decays, unless it changes to something else. Repeating the word "cube" has the effect of providing an associative reference and triggering the visual image of a cube. From this we conceive that we simply have the ability to control the creation of memory, but what differentiates us from animals is the ability to control the learning process, learning is the process of propagating memory across the brain, applying new weights and thresholds to synapses and neurons as it passes by, and we have the ability to control the flow of this process (i.e training), by propagating an imaginary resemblance of what we conceive to be "the right thing to do", so, in short, I think sentience is the ability to observe and supervise one's own learning. This also leads to another conclusion, not only is it the amount of neurons present that affects the performance of a brain, but also the physical structure and wiring of the brain, and this only develops through genetic selection and in early childhood. And I believe that if a synthetic entity imitates all of the above, it might as well grow a consciousness, but all remains a theory, since we're no where near experimenting with the subject at hand. ----- Beware miners with guns!
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.03.11 05:17:00 - [137] - Quote so its the 11th where the last crhonicle
Alex V0X2 Minmatar Exiled. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.03.11 10:18:00 - [138] - Quote Originally by: ollobrains2 so its the 11th where the last crhonicle this ----------------- http://cakematar.wordpress.com/ (epicness in rabbles)
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.03.11 10:46:00 - [139] - Quote maybe downtime today then ?
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2009.03.11 13:22:00 - [140] - Quote Originally by: Alex V0X2 Originally by: ollobrains2 so its the 11th where the last crhonicle this Quoted because i too wish to know how this ends pretty please <3 --------- Liberty Rogues Site[/center]

lyndo	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:04:00 - [141] - Quote hi would like some one to mail me from the dev team to tell me what i shud do coz i have just paid for two mounths and its says that i cant play eve because of my graphics card

CCP Abraxas	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:19:00 - [142] - Quote Originally by: ollobrains2 so its the 11th where the last crhonicle Next chronicle is coming up later today. I remember you asked for it last time as well, ollo, and while I applaud your enthusiasm, I very much doubt that we'll ever post a chronicle as early as five in the morning. Also, in case anyone missed it, the Breaking News page very much continues the plot from the End of the World. The last chronicle will tie everything together and summarize much of what happened in the last day or so. It will not explain everything in the End of the World cycle. Some things you will discover for yourselves as you explore w-space; others we'll reveal at a later date. As you'll find when you've read what we wrote, it's up to you now. Originally by: lyndo hi would like some one to mail me from the dev team to tell me what i shud do coz i have just paid for two mounths and its says that i cant play eve because of my graphics card As luck would have it, I was a Game Master for years. So here's what you do: Go to https://support.eve-online.com/pages/petitions/createpetition.aspx and fill out every field. Make sure you include the type of graphics card you have. Send it off and wait for a response

lyndo	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:29:00 - [143] - Quote thx very much abraxas

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