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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1187
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Posted - 2012.04.26 13:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Our Team Security is ever watchful, hunting down illegal activity in and around EVE Online.
CCP Sreeg describes in his newest blog some of the ongoing operations and their impact on illegal activity like RMT. Since he knows that we all are curious people, hungry for numbers and statistics, he also included exactly this: numbers and statistics of seized isk and assets and more.
Please read CCP Sreeg's newest devblog here. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
134
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Posted - 2012.04.26 13:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
First On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
227
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Posted - 2012.04.26 13:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
RMT tears best tears. Looking forward to some to drink from soon. Can I get a virtual hug anyway?
Also, second. http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
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St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
736
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Posted - 2012.04.26 13:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
^5 Internet Space Friend devs |
Squizz Caphinator
Woopatang Happy Endings
36
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Posted - 2012.04.26 13:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote: HTFU! whoop whoop! thats the sound of the space police!!!
Seems appropriate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5xvkAPXB9c http://evewho.com - Alliance and Corporation Member Listings http://evechatter.com - Free Alliance and Corporation forums for all. |
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CCP Punkturis
C C P C C P Alliance
1820
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Posted - 2012.04.26 13:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hi Five to my Team Security bros CCP Punkturis | EVE UI Programmer | @CCP_Punkturis |
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Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
134
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Posted - 2012.04.26 13:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Grideris wrote:RMT tears best tears.
agreed
On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1028
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Punkturis wrote:Hi Five to my Team Security bros
Only 800 likes less cool than our UI programming bros :( "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Pirmasis Sparagas
Final Fortress Happy Tree Fiends
11
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fantastic work! Maybe any numbers about boters too? |
Sundarbolt
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
13
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
In terms of getting the message out to new and existing players, why not use the ingame billboards and the captain's quarters screen to run numbers/tickers of reclaimed assets/ISK and banned players etc
oh and great work guys |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3274
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Very nice!
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1668
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Seem like the 3 strikes and you're out strategy is really paying off. Hard core offenders are starting to finally reach the end of their "grace" period, but I'm sure many more stop after the first temp. ban.
Thanks for keeping us somewhat in the loop. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Adonis Helios
Everlasting Forge
5
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Suggestion...
Have updates or warnings for the new players via the TV in the Captain's Quarters or even on the odd billboards floating around space by the jumpgates?
Kinda like those annoying drug control ads on TV lol
"I.e xxx amount of RMTers banned since xxxx date - Crime doesn't pay!" or some other equally corny phrase. |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
55
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Good work and hi-five to the team.
Sterling job I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Remulon McNab
The Galactic Collective Sovereign Technologies
1
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
[edit] will take this out of the message as I dropped an e-mail instead of using the forums.
Either way you guys did a great job got #tweetfleet? Follow @ZeroNRG |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1668
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Adonis Helios wrote:Suggestion...
Have updates or warnings for the new players via the TV in the Captain's Quarters or even on the odd billboards floating around space by the jumpgates?
Kinda like those annoying drug control ads on TV lol
"I.e xxx amount of RMTers banned since xxxx date - Crime doesn't pay!" or some other equally corny phrase.
I doubt they want to "break immersion" that way. Not saying a clever way to do it couldn't be found, but they probably want to keep most of those messages in something like the launcher or EVE Gate rather than in the game world itself. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Mr Bigwinky
4U Services Inc. Talocan United
205
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Remulon McNab wrote:@CCP Sreegs it might be useful to remind people again who the "allowed" GTC sellers are, heard "a" story from a person who bought a GTC from someone that was a not so "legal" seller Out of curiosity, if something security related happens during the day and people send an e-mail to security@ what is the "response" time. (aka which hamster is looking at that box when you are asleep) Either way you guys did a great job Why must you "type" like this? Welcome to EVE online, here's your rubix cube, go F*** yourself GÖÑ |
spookydonut
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
100
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hey can you give us an updated count of false positives?
At fanfest sreegs said it was only 1 false positive.
I know for a fact that it's at least 15 now, and maybe as high as 50. |
Andrea Griffin
266
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
My signature - it's true.
Thank you Sreegs and the rest of the security team. Much love. Keep up the awesome work! CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
26
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
If you want an effective log in banner for newbies to see just show a wallet with -100 000 000.00 ISK and say "THIS COULD BE YOU!"
That would scare the crap out of me! |
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Olaf4862
Supreme Authority of Questionable Descisions. SoulWing Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Punkturis wrote:Hi Five to my Team Security bros
Quoted for truth! |
Drago Palermus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
21
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sundarbolt wrote:In terms of getting the message out to new and existing players, why not use the ingame billboards and the captain's quarters screen to run numbers/tickers of reclaimed assets/ISK and banned players etc
oh and great work guys Because you should have Captain's Quarters turned off and billboards are only posted in Candy Land. |
Ifly Uwalk
Concentrated Evil Mining For Profit Alliance
210
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP ipwnallyersorrya$$esSreegs wrote:ps. I need to give a shout out to Team Security, CCP Arkanon, CCP Peligro and CCP Stillman. They put a lot of hard work into this stuff and they deserve a hi five. o/\o |
Terje Teinturier
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
0
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
<3 <3 Team Security! |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1034
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
spookydonut wrote:Hey can you give us an updated count of false positives?
At fanfest sreegs said it was only 1 false positive.
I know for a fact that it's at least 15 now, and maybe as high as 50.
That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity.
It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Savage Creampuff
Ion Corp.
9
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
impressive numbers for 3 weeks :D great job guys! |
TheButcherPete
Specter Syndicate CORE Alliance
146
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:CCP Punkturis wrote:Hi Five to my Team Security bros Only 800 likes less cool than our UI programming bros :(
Punkturis isn't a bro.. ohgod
/me cries My moncole doubles as a cigarette lighter, a flashlight, a laser and x-ray goggles. If you haven't noticed yet, I'm in love with Punkturis. -á-á-á
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Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
49
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Good work. |
Simvastatin Montelukast
Irregular Warfare
22
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Other then isk, did the banned accounts have lots of :
Ore? Faction Goodies? other items of interest? |
Allaun
BattleFleet Scarus
0
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Does anyone actually own a beeper? Seriously, when was the last time anyone here saw someone with a beeper? Bare minimum, you can buy a 15 dollar throw away phone for that. |
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Brinid Navarre
Green-Core Elysian Empire
1
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
Turelus wrote:If you want an effective log in banner for newbies to see just show a wallet with -100 000 000.00 ISK and say "THIS COULD BE YOU!"
That would scare the crap out of me!
That's not very much isk. You can make that in an hour playing fairly. Try again. ;) |
Morne Vyvorant
Random Precision. Broken Toys
1
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:39:00 -
[32] - Quote
As I gaze upon the fruits of CCP's security team's efforts, I am in awe.
Let the RMT apocalypse begin.
Seriously though, great job guys. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
196
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:spookydonut wrote:Hey can you give us an updated count of false positives?
At fanfest sreegs said it was only 1 false positive.
I know for a fact that it's at least 15 now, and maybe as high as 50. That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity. It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire.
If this proves to be true in some of your ongoing investigations (I have a friend who is still banned who only just received any sort of reply from you guys after almost a month of hearing absolutely nothing...) will you come out and admit it? |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
146
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
You big beautiful bastards! Keep up the amazing work sercuity team because you are doing everything right. Everything.
<3 I'll be joining the FDU on May 1st.-á Ladies! Please contain yourselves.-á Blog to launch soon, because my ego demands it, watch this space.-á Both Pew and ummm whatever sound industry makes.
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1046
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
Simvastatin Montelukast wrote:Other then isk, did the banned accounts have lots of :
Ore? Faction Goodies? other items of interest?
Assets are calculated into an isk value for the sake of simplicity. You can imagine that items seized run the gamut. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Perramas
Pan Caldarian Ventures
45
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
This war against the bots and RMT networks is the reason I have resubscribe to EVE online. Keep up the great work! |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
170
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
Allaun wrote:Does anyone actually own a beeper? Seriously, when was the last time anyone here saw someone with a beeper? Bare minimum, you can buy a 15 dollar throw away phone for that.
I still have one.
It still works (tested it for fun some time ago) but I have to admit that I haven't been carrying it around for the last 15 years or so.
ps. Once upon a time I even had a supercool watch with builtin beeper ... ds.
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Adonis Helios
Everlasting Forge
6
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Adonis Helios wrote:Suggestion...
Have updates or warnings for the new players via the TV in the Captain's Quarters or even on the odd billboards floating around space by the jumpgates?
Kinda like those annoying drug control ads on TV lol
"I.e xxx amount of RMTers banned since xxxx date - Crime doesn't pay!" or some other equally corny phrase. I doubt they want to "break immersion" that way. Not saying a clever way to do it couldn't be found, but they probably want to keep most of those messages in something like the launcher or EVE Gate rather than in the game world itself.
I understand your point entirely. Perhaps it can be worked in such a way to be seen as a crime in-game? I'm sure the Eve story guys can work their magic.
I.e Concord(not CCP) banning players laundering ISK? .. I dunno |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1669
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:46:00 -
[39] - Quote
corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:spookydonut wrote:Hey can you give us an updated count of false positives?
At fanfest sreegs said it was only 1 false positive.
I know for a fact that it's at least 15 now, and maybe as high as 50. That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity. It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire. If this proves to be true in some of your ongoing investigations (I have a friend who is still banned who only just received any sort of reply from you guys after almost a month of hearing absolutely nothing...) will you come out and admit it?
In all fairness, if your internet "friend" actually was doing something in violation of the EULA (botting, RMT, or otherwise) are you really sure they would admit it to you... When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
196
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:47:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:spookydonut wrote:Hey can you give us an updated count of false positives?
At fanfest sreegs said it was only 1 false positive.
I know for a fact that it's at least 15 now, and maybe as high as 50. That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity. It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire. If this proves to be true in some of your ongoing investigations (I have a friend who is still banned who only just received any sort of reply from you guys after almost a month of hearing absolutely nothing...) will you come out and admit it? In all fairness, if your internet "friend" actually was doing something in violation of the EULA (botting, RMT, or otherwise) are you really sure they would admit it to you...
Edited some clarification in; he was running a bond in the alliance. It'd have been all too easy for him to get false flagged. |
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Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
89
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:47:00 -
[41] - Quote
Good news, good news indeed. Way to go and keep it up! Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
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Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
27
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
Brinid Navarre wrote:Turelus wrote:If you want an effective log in banner for newbies to see just show a wallet with -100 000 000.00 ISK and say "THIS COULD BE YOU!"
That would scare the crap out of me! That's not very much isk. You can make that in an hour playing fairly. Try again. ;)
I think for a brand new EVE player that would seem a lot of money. Although a few billion might be more around the right mark to make an actual statement to newbies. |
Jastra
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
88
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
good stuff |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1049
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:spookydonut wrote:Hey can you give us an updated count of false positives?
At fanfest sreegs said it was only 1 false positive.
I know for a fact that it's at least 15 now, and maybe as high as 50. That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity. It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire. If this proves to be true in some of your ongoing investigations (I have a friend who is still banned who only just received any sort of reply from you guys after almost a month of hearing absolutely nothing...) will you come out and admit it?
I believe we have. We've also reimbursed people who were wrongly caught in the crossfire. I'll add to that though that everyone in prison is innocent and not everyone claiming to have been caught in some massively wide net that doesn't exist is doing so honestly. :)
I don't feel any pain one way or another by admitting a mistake. We did the same by admitting we had any false positives at all. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Rrama Ratamnim
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
1
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:49:00 -
[45] - Quote
Turelus wrote:If you want an effective log in banner for newbies to see just show a wallet with -100 000 000.00 ISK and say "THIS COULD BE YOU!"
That would scare the crap out of me!
Agreed a negative wallet picture with a big caption "Don't be a statistic! RMT is wrong!"
That said
is it just me or for all the good work team security does do they need a new name??? Its just so .. normal....
I vote for Team RoboCop!
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Denidil
Larimer Highlands Heavy Industries
261
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:49:00 -
[46] - Quote
corestwo wrote:
Edited some clarification in; he was running a bond in the alliance. It'd have been all too easy for him to get false flagged.
and just as easy for him to try to be hiding his illicit activities under the legal ones. I have found this new mysterious resource called "Life" |
SabotNoob
Sabot Industries
46
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Posted - 2012.04.26 14:51:00 -
[47] - Quote
"...which can be used by you to fund your game time and the money goes into developing a better spaceship game instead of buying the equivalent of a digital drug dealer a cool new diamond-covered blingy case for his beeper."
Beeper?! Who the hell still uses a beeper? They should be shot (in-game), then banned. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
I think that moving all the offenders to a corp of 'Banned Players' while they were banned would have been a good way to indicating that they were 'bad'. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
196
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
Denidil wrote:corestwo wrote:
Edited some clarification in; he was running a bond in the alliance. It'd have been all too easy for him to get false flagged.
and just as easy for him to try to be hiding his illicit activities under the legal ones.
While I'll be the first to admit that goons were probably as riddled with RMTers as any other nullsec alliance, he's also one of the last people I'd expect to have been RMTing. And the fact that every goon wasn't involved in RMT is just as obvious as your bias towards thinking we were.
@CCPSreegs: I'll hold you to that, then, once you guys finish. Given how long it took him to get one reply, I suppose I'll be reporting back sometime in 2013. |
gfldex
493
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
All hail our new RMT overlo ... no wait! All hail our new Internet Space Friend CCP Sreegs! When someone burns down your sandcasle, bring sausages. |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
282
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:03:00 -
[51] - Quote
Wow..... AWESOME!!!!!
If 1268 accounts are now permabanned.... are you getting any flack from management about the loss of 1268 Monthly Subs??
That would be a loss of $20,000 in monthly income for CCP???
How can we get management off your back!!!! |
Eric Deloitte
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:10:00 -
[52] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Wow..... AWESOME!!!!!
If 1268 accounts are now permabanned.... are you getting any flack from management about the loss of 1268 Monthly Subs??
That would be a loss of $20,000 in monthly income for CCP???
How can we get management off your back!!!!
They were probably costing CCP a lot more in Plex sales that sub fees |
Francisco Bizzaro
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:11:00 -
[53] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Wow..... AWESOME!!!!!
If 1268 accounts are now permabanned.... are you getting any flack from management about the loss of 1268 Monthly Subs??
That would be a loss of $20,000 in monthly income for CCP???
How can we get management off your back!!!!
It probably just means 1268 ISK-purchased PLEX don't get consumed every month. Still an issue, but less direct than missing $20k.
And anyway, if the RMTers were contributing $20k to CCP every month, they must have been earning even more than that via their RMT business. That business now gets shifted to legal CCP-endorsed PLEX. |
Faith Patrouette
Careless Carebears Inc.
5
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Posted - 2012.04.26 15:12:00 -
[54] - Quote
I never thought i would openly admit this but Sreegs.. I think I love you!
Keep up the great work guys! |
Cpt Arareb
Ideal Machine Many Reckless Corps
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:13:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nice work indeed sreegs and team ..keep up |
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
375
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:14:00 -
[56] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity.
It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire.
I have refrained from commenting or arguing with you on the forums, thus far, because I seriously respect you for this undertaking. You are doing a good thing and have to contend with a legion of idiots while doing so. Props.
However, the response time we are seeing on certain things is a little disconcerting, and it is what motivated corestwo to post. In the case that corestwo is posting about, it took us nearly a month to get any sort of response despite repeated petitions and e-mails to your security@ e-mail address. Having to wait for such a long period of time without even a "we are looking at this" e-mail, while you are posting about the low false positive rate on the forums -- I'm sure you can see how these events make me sad. Nevertheless I have tried to be patient, but now it has been a month since the original bannings.
Also, I know of at least one person who was unbanned a week ago and who had all of his accounts compensated with 14 days of game time for the false positive ban. You declined to provide an explanation for the false positive to this person, but I can only surmise that you considered him innocent rather than in the "was doing something shady" category.
I'm trying to say this nicely because I genuinely want your efforts to be successful and I respect what you have done so far. This is why I haven't been harassing you about hypotheticals like the previous devblog thread. But the case I'm talking about is almost a textbook example of a false positive and so far it isn't being handled very well. Right now we have 200 billion ISK in assets (belonging to around 20-25 real people who invested in the bond) that are sitting unusable and have been for a month. In light of that situation, continuing to read posts about "no false positives" and "doing something else they shouldn't have been" at this point is aggravating. It is especially even more aggravating because there is no way the lost income from that 200B in assets will be compensated fairly by CCP if the person IS unbanned -- it is just gone, and there is no way for you to fairly rectify the consequences of a false positive of this magnitude.
Like I said. I don't have any desire to start an Internet slapfight or rake you over the coals on this stuff since I think you're doing a pretty good job at a great thing. But yeah -- there are still issues, and for me they aren't just hypotheticals.
Ranger 1 wrote:In all fairness, if your internet "friend" actually was doing something in violation of the EULA (botting, RMT, or otherwise) are you really sure they would admit it to you...
I have access to the API data of the banned accounts that were mentioned by corestwo so I could go check if I really wanted to. But yes, in this case I am sure. |
Shepard Book
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:15:00 -
[57] - Quote
Anything being done to prevent them making new accounts? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1669
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:16:00 -
[58] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Denidil wrote:corestwo wrote:
Edited some clarification in; he was running a bond in the alliance. It'd have been all too easy for him to get false flagged.
and just as easy for him to try to be hiding his illicit activities under the legal ones. While I'll be the first to admit that goons were probably as riddled with RMTers as any other nullsec alliance, he's also one of the last people I'd expect to have been RMTing, for a variety of reasons. And the fact that every goon wasn't involved in RMT is just as obvious as your bias towards thinking we were. @CCPSreegs: I'll hold you to that, then, once you guys finish. Given how long it took him to get one reply, I suppose I'll be reporting back sometime in 2013.
My original question was an honest one, and I have no prejudice toward goons in general. Any alliance or corp can have botters, RMT, or ISK laundering going on and the general membership may very well not be aware of it.
I've had more than one person that I thought I knew fairly well finally fess up to dabbling in those activities over the years... it happens.
One thing to keep in mind if it takes that long to get a response other than "Goodbye" it could very well mean they are taking the time to be thorough, which in my mind is preferable a fast and probably negative outcome. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
196
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:21:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:One thing to keep in mind if it takes that long to get a response other than "Goodbye" it could very well mean they are taking the time to be thorough, which in my mind is preferable a fast and probably negative outcome. At least one case in which CCP decided that the player was, shall we say, partially guilty (unbanned, minus some cash), the player in question was unbanned on all of his multiple accounts in less than a week. I'm sure kazanir can provide more examples of swift turnaround times. So, you can see why we're kind of upset about a month without so much as a "we're looking into it". |
Ayame Tao
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:27:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Simvastatin Montelukast wrote:Other then isk, did the banned accounts have lots of :
Ore? Faction Goodies? other items of interest? Assets are calculated into an isk value for the sake of simplicity. You can imagine that items seized run the gamut.
Can I have their stuff?
o/\o for Team Security.
|
|
BugraT WarheaD
Astromechanica Federatis
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:29:00 -
[61] - Quote
Hi five you people ! Keep up this nice work ;) |
Daneel Trevize
The Scope Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
Quote:illicit businessmen who could really care less about their impact on New Eden ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw Edumacate thy selves. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1669
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:32:00 -
[63] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:One thing to keep in mind if it takes that long to get a response other than "Goodbye" it could very well mean they are taking the time to be thorough, which in my mind is preferable a fast and probably negative outcome. At least one case in which CCP decided that the player was, shall we say, partially guilty (unbanned, minus some cash), the player in question was unbanned on all of his multiple accounts in less than a week. I'm sure kazanir can provide more examples of swift turnaround times. So, you can see why we're kind of upset about a month without so much as a "we're looking into it".
I fully understand that, I'm not trying to say your concern is not valid.
But if this situation involved a lot of ISK transactions/transfers it's going to take a much longer period of time to trace the income from all those sources.
That being said, I'm just applying common sense (that I think you can agree with). It could also just as easily be that the case you are concerned about slipped through the cracks somehow. It's unlikely, but they are only human so it is possible.
It's also possible that some RMT monies were in the mix that your friend was unaware of, which would complicate things a great deal.
You are doing what you should do, check back on the situation periodically for progress. Just don't lose sight of the fact that many of the details about any of these cases really can't be released (which makes it hard to keep in perspective when it's a long time aquaintance involved).
That, and my original point still holds. You can know someone for years in this game, and yet still be surprised by them dabbling in activities like this... often out of curiosity or a non-reoccuring need. Embarrassment keeps them from fessing up right away, which is understandable too.
You know what I'm saying... and that I'm not trying to throw stones directly at you or your friend.
When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Reginald Zebranky
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:36:00 -
[64] - Quote
Keep up the good work!
also, incidentally: spectrum of caring |
Arckaon
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
well, if Market bot IS ban i'll be happy :)
Nice job CCP |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
196
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:38:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:corestwo wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:One thing to keep in mind if it takes that long to get a response other than "Goodbye" it could very well mean they are taking the time to be thorough, which in my mind is preferable a fast and probably negative outcome. At least one case in which CCP decided that the player was, shall we say, partially guilty (unbanned, minus some cash), the player in question was unbanned on all of his multiple accounts in less than a week. I'm sure kazanir can provide more examples of swift turnaround times. So, you can see why we're kind of upset about a month without so much as a "we're looking into it". I fully understand that, I'm not trying to say your concern is not valid. But if this situation involved a lot of ISK transactions/transfers it's going to take a much longer period of time to trace the income from all those sources. That being said, I'm just applying common sense (that I think you can agree with). It could also just as easily be that the case you are concerned about slipped through the cracks somehow. It's unlikely, but they are only human so it is possible. It's also possible that some RMT monies were in the mix that your friend was unaware of, which would complicate things a great deal. You are doing what you should do, check back on the situation periodically for progress. Just don't lose sight of the fact that many of the details about any of these cases really can't be released (which makes it hard to keep in perspective when it's a long time aquaintance involved). That, and my original point still holds. You can know someone for years in this game, and yet still be surprised by them dabbling in activities like this... often out of curiosity or a non-reoccuring need. Embarrassment keeps them from fessing up right away, which is understandable too. You know what I'm saying... and that I'm not trying to throw stones directly at you or your friend.
Taking a good long while to properly investigate is fine and we'd be okay with that, if not for the whole lack of any contact at all. A month without so much as a "We're looking at it and will keep you updated."
And your original point is still invalidated by Kazanir's API access. |
Ines Fy
Heroes of the Past Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:39:00 -
[67] - Quote
Quote:4.2 Trillion or so isk in assets has been seized from RMTers or suppliers.
Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy. He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk.
So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process? |
Arckaon
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:44:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ines Fy wrote:Quote:4.2 Trillion or so isk in assets has been seized from RMTers or suppliers. Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy. He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk. So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process?
Well i think CCP need to put more taxes to alliance and Corp
too many isk increase price
Forcing farming bounty etc
then more isk
we need a stable amount of isk in the game |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1669
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:45:00 -
[69] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:corestwo wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:One thing to keep in mind if it takes that long to get a response other than "Goodbye" it could very well mean they are taking the time to be thorough, which in my mind is preferable a fast and probably negative outcome. At least one case in which CCP decided that the player was, shall we say, partially guilty (unbanned, minus some cash), the player in question was unbanned on all of his multiple accounts in less than a week. I'm sure kazanir can provide more examples of swift turnaround times. So, you can see why we're kind of upset about a month without so much as a "we're looking into it". I fully understand that, I'm not trying to say your concern is not valid. But if this situation involved a lot of ISK transactions/transfers it's going to take a much longer period of time to trace the income from all those sources. That being said, I'm just applying common sense (that I think you can agree with). It could also just as easily be that the case you are concerned about slipped through the cracks somehow. It's unlikely, but they are only human so it is possible. It's also possible that some RMT monies were in the mix that your friend was unaware of, which would complicate things a great deal. You are doing what you should do, check back on the situation periodically for progress. Just don't lose sight of the fact that many of the details about any of these cases really can't be released (which makes it hard to keep in perspective when it's a long time aquaintance involved). That, and my original point still holds. You can know someone for years in this game, and yet still be surprised by them dabbling in activities like this... often out of curiosity or a non-reoccuring need. Embarrassment keeps them from fessing up right away, which is understandable too. You know what I'm saying... and that I'm not trying to throw stones directly at you or your friend. Taking a good long while to properly investigate is fine and we'd be okay with that, if not for the whole lack of any contact at all. A month without so much as a "We're looking at it and will keep you updated." And your original point is still invalidated by Kazanir's API access.
API access only gives you details about that one account. You know as well as I do there are many ways around that, and that penalties are not restricted to the account that made the infraction.
So no, you don't have access to all of the information that CCP would have access to about this persons activities. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1581
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:47:00 -
[70] - Quote
"Oh dear, everyone is going to quit when you take away my illegal botting and ISK buying!!!"
/10 people quit.
LOL - Good on you.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
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Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
100
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:03:00 -
[71] - Quote
Make them suffer!!!! |
Maul555
Nuts and Vindictive Remix Technologies
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
TEAM SECURITY SMASH SMASH BAD MEN!!! TEAM SECURITY SMASH SMASH GOOD!!! |
Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions
69
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:07:00 -
[73] - Quote
You should implement a mission for new players where they have to watch a Concord movie on the CQ mainscreen that explains the issue in a not immersion breaking way. Explain them the PLEX market interactively. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity.
It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire. I have refrained from commenting or arguing with you on the forums, thus far, because I seriously respect you for this undertaking. You are doing a good thing and have to contend with a legion of idiots while doing so. Props. However, the response time we are seeing on certain things is a little disconcerting, and it is what motivated corestwo to post. In the case that corestwo is posting about, it took us nearly a month to get any sort of response despite repeated petitions and e-mails to your security@ e-mail address. Having to wait for such a long period of time without even a "we are looking at this" e-mail, while you are posting about the low false positive rate on the forums -- I'm sure you can see how these events make me sad. Nevertheless I have tried to be patient, but now it has been a month since the original bannings. Also, I know of at least one person who was unbanned a week ago and who had all of his accounts compensated with 14 days of game time for the false positive ban. You declined to provide an explanation for the false positive to this person, but I can only surmise that you considered him innocent rather than in the "was doing something shady" category. I'm trying to say this nicely because I genuinely want your efforts to be successful and I respect what you have done so far. This is why I haven't been harassing you about hypotheticals like the previous devblog thread. But the case I'm talking about is almost a textbook example of a false positive and so far it isn't being handled very well. Right now we have 200 billion ISK in assets (belonging to around 20-25 real people who invested in the bond) that are sitting unusable and have been for a month. In light of that situation, continuing to read posts about "no false positives" and "doing something else they shouldn't have been" at this point is aggravating. It is especially aggravating because there is no way the lost income from that 200B in assets will be compensated fairly by CCP if the person IS unbanned -- it is just gone, and there is no way for you to fairly rectify the consequences of a false positive of this magnitude. Like I said. I don't have any desire to start an Internet slapfight or rake you over the coals on this stuff since I think you're doing a pretty good job at a great thing. But yeah -- there are still issues, and for me they aren't just hypotheticals. Ranger 1 wrote:In all fairness, if your internet "friend" actually was doing something in violation of the EULA (botting, RMT, or otherwise) are you really sure they would admit it to you... I have access to the API data of the banned accounts that were mentioned by corestwo so I could go check if I really wanted to. But yes, in this case I am sure.
I stand behind what I said because it was true. The petition system is the place for you to air these complaints.
"I know a guy who said a thing" doesn't quite cut the mustard and unless it's your account you are not a part of the conversation by matter of policy. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
615
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:17:00 -
[75] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Wow..... AWESOME!!!!!
If 1268 accounts are now permabanned.... are you getting any flack from management about the loss of 1268 Monthly Subs??
That would be a loss of $20,000 in monthly income for CCP???
How can we get management off your back!!!!
Tell your friends that eve is being cleaned up and they should subscribe. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Camios
Minmatar Bread Corporation
100
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:23:00 -
[76] - Quote
Nice, I hope to hear news from your team every month. You could turn this into a monthly blog like "The tales of security Dad" where you tell us numbers.
That would really be a good marketing move.
Burn them all.
On a side note: what did you decide about 'scarlet letters'? |
spookydonut
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
100
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
Camios wrote:Nice, I hope to hear news from your team every month. You could turn this into a monthly blog like "The tales of security Dad" where you tell us numbers.
That would really be a good marketing move.
Burn them all.
On a side note: what did you decide about 'scarlet letters'?
After about page 3 he stopped replying in the thread. |
Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
333
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:29:00 -
[78] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I stand behind what I said because it was true. The petition system is the place for you to air these complaints.
"I know a guy who said a thing" doesn't quite cut the mustard and unless it's your account you are not a part of the conversation by matter of policy.
The petition system is staffed with tier 1 mongs that suggest answers like "reboot your computer" and "is the cable plugged into your computer". |
Pyrus Octavius
Koshaku Gentlemen's Agreement
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:30:00 -
[79] - Quote
Bravo Team Security! If I could give you an in game medal, it would say something like this:
"For dedication and tenacity to make this ******* game more AWESOME, you are hereby awarded The Savior of EVE Cross of Kicking RMTers In The Balls " award .
Keep up the good work! |
Solo Drakban
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
845
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:30:00 -
[80] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I stand behind what I said because it was true. The petition system is the place for you to air these complaints.
"I know a guy who said a thing" doesn't quite cut the mustard and unless it's your account you are not a part of the conversation by matter of policy.
We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia. The corp is mother... The corp is father...
Repeatedly claiming something is true doesn't make it so, regardless of how many people are posting in this thread on their knees wondering how to get the stain out of their clothing. |
|
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
377
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:34:00 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I stand behind what I said because it was true. The petition system is the place for you to air these complaints.
"I know a guy who said a thing" doesn't quite cut the mustard and unless it's your account you are not a part of the conversation by matter of policy.
I'm airing my complaint in here because I feel like your specific promises from the original thread aren't being honored and it is a matter of public concern. You specifically promised that while you didn't think much of the hypotheticals people were whining about, that you would look at specific, real examples of possible false positives.
The petition system in particular has seen multiple weeks with no responses to any petitions other than form letters and petitions closed without response. All of our petitions, e-mails, and forum posts have been unfailingly polite and patient and yet we're still not seeing progress.
I'm involved because the accounts in question control hundreds of billions in assets which were invested in a corporate IPO by members of my corporation. (This is a legitimate business venture, which, incidentally, is backed by CCP game mechanics in the form of corporation shares and dividends.) That means that their concerns are my concerns -- and since no one at CCP has responded to the primary party, I needed to make a little noise.
I am not wasting your time with unfunny point-scoring or other BS and so I'd also appreciate it if you didn't snarkily reply with straw-mans like, "I know a guy who said a thing." |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1079
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:36:00 -
[82] - Quote
Solo Drakban wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:I stand behind what I said because it was true. The petition system is the place for you to air these complaints.
"I know a guy who said a thing" doesn't quite cut the mustard and unless it's your account you are not a part of the conversation by matter of policy. We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia. The corp is mother... The corp is father... Repeatedly claiming something is true doesn't make it so, regardless of how many people are posting in this thread on their knees wondering how to get the stain out of their clothing.
Repeatedly saying something isnt so doesn't either. That's all the discussion that will occur in this thread on this subject. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1085
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:39:00 -
[83] - Quote
Camios wrote:Nice, I hope to hear news from your team every month. You could turn this into a monthly blog like "The tales of security Dad" where you tell us numbers.
That would really be a good marketing move.
Burn them all.
On a side note: what did you decide about 'scarlet letters'?
There's been no decision reached yet and I'm still going over the various responses. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Mahni
Stargazer Exploration Company Transmission Lost
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:44:00 -
[84] - Quote
Can you give us the number of of accs that were paid with plex and money? |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1085
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:45:00 -
[85] - Quote
Mahni wrote:Can you give us the number of of accs that were paid with plex and money?
I can not right now. I can say that I was surprised by the percentages if that's indicative of anything. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
202
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:50:00 -
[86] - Quote
Go Team Security , I also suggest a change in name, Team Robocop is good, I prefer Team Botbusters though
hi-five to all those involved, RMT is bad umkay War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Ken Kyoukan
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:51:00 -
[87] - Quote
FAO: CCP Sreegs
I did evemail you a couple of times regarding this and a bot type matter alongside an email to the security email address... Feel free to contact me regarding these or to ask me to post them again here.
Thanks in advance, Ken. |
SXYGeeK
Wrecking Shots Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:52:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity.
It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire. I have refrained from commenting or arguing with you on the forums, thus far, because I seriously respect you for this undertaking. You are doing a good thing and have to contend with a legion of idiots while doing so. Props. However, the response time we are seeing on certain things is a little disconcerting, and it is what motivated corestwo to post. In the case that corestwo is posting about, it took us nearly a month to get any sort of response despite repeated petitions and e-mails to your security@ e-mail address. Having to wait for such a long period of time without even a "we are looking at this" e-mail, while you are posting about the low false positive rate on the forums -- I'm sure you can see how these events make me sad. Nevertheless I have tried to be patient, but now it has been a month since the original bannings. Also, I know of at least one person who was unbanned a week ago and who had all of his accounts compensated with 14 days of game time for the false positive ban. You declined to provide an explanation for the false positive to this person, but I can only surmise that you considered him innocent rather than in the "was doing something shady" category. I'm trying to say this nicely because I genuinely want your efforts to be successful and I respect what you have done so far. This is why I haven't been harassing you about hypotheticals like the previous devblog thread. But the case I'm talking about is almost a textbook example of a false positive and so far it isn't being handled very well. Right now we have 200 billion ISK in assets (belonging to around 20-25 real people who invested in the bond) that are sitting unusable and have been for a month. In light of that situation, continuing to read posts about "no false positives" and "doing something else they shouldn't have been" at this point is aggravating. It is especially aggravating because there is no way the lost income from that 200B in assets will be compensated fairly by CCP if the person IS unbanned -- it is just gone, and there is no way for you to fairly rectify the consequences of a false positive of this magnitude. Like I said. I don't have any desire to start an Internet slapfight or rake you over the coals on this stuff since I think you're doing a pretty good job at a great thing. But yeah -- there are still issues, and for me they aren't just hypotheticals. Ranger 1 wrote:In all fairness, if your internet "friend" actually was doing something in violation of the EULA (botting, RMT, or otherwise) are you really sure they would admit it to you... I have access to the API data of the banned accounts that were mentioned by corestwo so I could go check if I really wanted to. But yes, in this case I am sure. I stand behind what I said because it was true. The petition system is the place for you to air these complaints. "I know a guy who said a thing" doesn't quite cut the mustard and unless it's your account you are not a part of the conversation by matter of policy.
o/\o High fives for team security.
Kazanir gave us a very measured and respectful viewpoint as one of the folks "caught in the crossfire" his and others accounts may not have been banned, but that doesn't mean they aren't affected.
I do think the response was a little vacuous.
I'd love to hear something like.. "Yes I'll see where the petitions are hung up" or "our team is currently looking into this and other potential false positive petitions" or even "I am sorry to report there are findings of legitimate wrong doing" but i understand there is a limit to how much you can disclose about specific cases.
Thanks for the hard work security bros !
|
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
74
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:59:00 -
[89] - Quote
Ines Fy wrote:Quote:4.2 Trillion or so isk in assets has been seized from RMTers or suppliers. Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy. He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk. So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process?
I like this. There was suggestion at Fan Fest that the confiscated PLEX might be sold to players, why not some of these assets as well? If it is just a pile of Merlins and Rifters, it wouldn't really be worth it, but (from the value) I'm going to guess there is some nice shiny stuff in that 4.2 trillion isk pile of assets. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1096
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:07:00 -
[90] - Quote
SXYGeeK wrote:
o/\o High fives for team security.
Kazanir gave us a very measured and respectful viewpoint as one of the folks "caught in the crossfire" his and others accounts may not have been banned, but that doesn't mean they aren't affected.
I do think the response was a little vacuous.
I'd love to hear something like.. "Yes I'll see where the petitions are hung up" or "our team is currently looking into this and other potential false positive petitions" or even "I am sorry to report there are findings of legitimate wrong doing" but i understand there is a limit to how much you can disclose about specific cases.
Thanks for the hard work security bros !
The intent of the response isn't to be vicious. The fact of the matter is that I can't discuss this here nor can I discuss an individual's situation with anyone other than this individual.
No matter how nice the post is or how rude the rest of the posts on the exact same topic are the response cannot be any different.
Were I a guy playing a videogame who had a bunch of his space stuff tied up in some other guy who I thought was innocent I might be a bit put out and I understand that completely. This just isn't the venue for that discussion as frustrating as that may be. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2303
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:09:00 -
[91] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:Ines Fy wrote:Quote:4.2 Trillion or so isk in assets has been seized from RMTers or suppliers. Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy. He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk. So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process? I like this. There was suggestion at Fan Fest that the confiscated PLEX might be sold to players, why not some of these assets as well? If it is just a pile of Merlins and Rifters, it wouldn't really be worth it, but (from the value) I'm going to guess there is some nice shiny stuff in that 4.2 trillion isk pile of assets.
CCP shouldn't be in the business of competing against produce the playerbase is also selling. ISK sinks are a nice thing, but I'm of the opinion, that simply deleting those assets is the best thing CCP can do with them. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1096
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:10:00 -
[92] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:Ines Fy wrote:Quote:4.2 Trillion or so isk in assets has been seized from RMTers or suppliers. Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy. He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk. So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process? I like this. There was suggestion at Fan Fest that the confiscated PLEX might be sold to players, why not some of these assets as well? If it is just a pile of Merlins and Rifters, it wouldn't really be worth it, but (from the value) I'm going to guess there is some nice shiny stuff in that 4.2 trillion isk pile of assets.
One problem I have with this is that we're seeing patterns of activity where the isk is botted up and in this case we're printing isk at a rate which it should not be happening at out of thin air.
At the end of the day though I'm not an economics guy so the assets sit in the banned accounts until or unless someone decides to use them for something.
I'd considered at one point using them as a reward system but I can't get over the fact that a lot of this stuff just simply shouldn't exist and that can't be good for an economy. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:11:00 -
[93] - Quote
Nice work Sreegs & team.
@ whiny Goons: Why dont you shoot the Jita monument over it while you there anyway in 2 days ? |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
275
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:13:00 -
[94] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Very nice! This is good to see.
However I am still wondering if you have any actions planned for spammers and the likes that are, many that are most likely a funding for RMT as well I'm sure.
Spam is a problem! It keeps cluttering up channels and some are very easy and obvious, day old alts. I personally report bots every day but some still keep spamming weeks in. Will there be a team/plan to instantly ban spammers sometime too?
imo some are so obvious it doesn't need any investigation - just an instant hammer.
Keep up the great work, hope to see the next update you give with even more RMT/botters/spammers gone.
/c
:P Most of these jita spammers are even using scripts/bots to spam with... that should be considered against the rules... (you can notice by the intervals) |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:14:00 -
[95] - Quote
good job guys :)
other solution may consist of cheaper GTCs (on RL money), to make RMT even harder to be profitable |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1096
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:23:00 -
[96] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Very nice! This is good to see.
However I am still wondering if you have any actions planned for spammers and the likes that are, many that are most likely a funding for RMT as well I'm sure.
Spam is a problem! It keeps cluttering up channels and some are very easy and obvious, day old alts. I personally report bots every day but some still keep spamming weeks in. Will there be a team/plan to instantly ban spammers sometime too?
imo some are so obvious it doesn't need any investigation - just an instant hammer.
Keep up the great work, hope to see the next update you give with even more RMT/botters/spammers gone.
/c
Spam is an annoying problem and I am not sure it should reside with us but I'll start some emails internally and see what kind of conversation I can stir up. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Xyfu
Love From Above
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:29:00 -
[97] - Quote
I'm worried about how effective this is. Were I an illicit ISK seller, I'd temporarily close shop and wait for you guys to utterly **** every other one, then go on to something else, (say, network manipulation becomes a bigger problem than RMT, or some ****), then start back up.
After all, it's been nearly 10 years of good business, what's 10 months of downtime? |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
617
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:31:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Chribba wrote:Very nice! This is good to see.
However I am still wondering if you have any actions planned for spammers and the likes that are, many that are most likely a funding for RMT as well I'm sure.
Spam is a problem! It keeps cluttering up channels and some are very easy and obvious, day old alts. I personally report bots every day but some still keep spamming weeks in. Will there be a team/plan to instantly ban spammers sometime too?
imo some are so obvious it doesn't need any investigation - just an instant hammer.
Keep up the great work, hope to see the next update you give with even more RMT/botters/spammers gone.
/c Spam is an annoying problem and I am not sure it should reside with us but I'll start some emails internally and see what kind of conversation I can stir up.
If the spam is being entered into chat via a macro, I think it should reside with you. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Danny Centauri
Real Time Industries
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:33:00 -
[99] - Quote
Hey there,
Some actual research that could help you guys out. First these EVE ISK companies are relying upon two methods to attack the EVE community and get customers.
Firstly letGÇÖs deal with PPC advertising on Google, I will only deal with Google as that will cover the vast majority of the issue (some similar work may be required with Bing to cover the problem in the US). Right now PPC is a massive problem as itGÇÖs an instant trip to the top of the SERPs with the majority of Google users not realising that people pay for these rankings and that it is no indication that Google actually trust these sites just purely based upon the fact that they paid to be there.
As EVE online ISK and other EVE assets are copyrighted then get in touch with Google and make a Digital Millennium Copyright Act request to Google complaining about the copyrighted materials appearing on these ISK selling websites. This will then either force the site into removing these assets or if they donGÇÖt then Google will delist them not only from the regular SERPs but also from PPC.
Secondly onto regular results in the SERPs and how these can be tackled. Well to put it simply these companies are scammy as hell and their whole online strategy is based around spammy link building something which is actually against Googles guidelines, so straight away report them: https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/spamreport?hl=en&pli=1
Then start your own site targeted towards the keyword table below, based around the effects of RMT on the EVE community and the risks of getting caught. You simply have to create better content than them and then plea to the EVE community to all write a blog post about RMT and buying ISK and link it to your site. If you ask people to use the anchor text for the exact keyword then great, if not donGÇÖt worry too much as Google have recently reduced the value of anchor text on links.
Site traffic for iskspot.com: Query Percent of Search Traffic buy isk 37.10% eve online isk 21.49% eve isk 13.41% iskspot support 2.19% buy eve isk 2.12% iskspot safe 1.98% damage dealing eve 1.29% eve high-tech weapons 1.12% eve security status 0.90% eve weapons upgrades 5 0.78%
They have 2,820 back links of which 295 come from 255 websites with the anchor text GÇÿeve ISKGÇÖ and 254 come from 225 websites with the anchor text GÇÿbuy iskGÇÖ. This is something we can easily beat as a community especially with high PR links from the main EVE sites.
Finally one last recommendation is to make a youtube video optimised for the keywords buy isk, perhaps go for a title like GÇÿbuy ISKGǪ suffer the consequencesGÇÖ. This will then with a little bit of work appear in the SERPs too as Google love putting Youtube videos at the top of the SERPS effectively giving you double top positions and knocking everyone else actually selling ISK below the fold.
If you steal their traffic you kill their industry. If you require any advice or want any further information please feel free to contact me. I'm sure there are plenty more SEO'ers in the community that could offer you further advice too. Good luck killing RMT.
Regards, Danny
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1102
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:36:00 -
[100] - Quote
Xyfu wrote:I'm worried about how effective this is. Were I an illicit ISK seller, I'd temporarily close shop and wait for you guys to utterly **** every other one, then go on to something else, (say, network manipulation becomes a bigger problem than RMT, or some ****), then start back up.
After all, it's been nearly 10 years of good business, what's 10 months of downtime?
You should encourage them all to do this. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Voidfinger
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:37:00 -
[101] - Quote
Man I love spending 500+ million for a abbadon! |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
197
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:44:00 -
[102] - Quote
These two words...they do not mean the same thing. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
668
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:44:00 -
[103] - Quote
CCP Sreegs - Were there any unique items seized? By that I mean ships like the Freki, Mimir, Adrestia, Utu, Silver Magnate, Guardian-Vexor, etc... of which only a few have been released in the game and there's no way to add more?
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Atum
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:47:00 -
[104] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Spam is an annoying problem and I am not sure it should reside with us but I'll start some emails internally and see what kind of conversation I can stir up. If the spam is being entered into chat via a macro, I think it should reside with you. How do you tell the difference between a macro running externally to the client that spams whatever window is active (EULA violation), versus some guy mashing an F-key on his Logitech G19 (legit trolling)? |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1107
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Posted - 2012.04.26 17:48:00 -
[105] - Quote
corestwo wrote:These two words...they do not mean the same thing.
I can type what I want "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1107
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:49:00 -
[106] - Quote
Gogela wrote:CCP Sreegs - Were there any unique items seized? By that I mean ships like the Freki, Mimir, Adrestia, Utu, Silver Magnate, Guardian-Vexor, etc... of which only a few have been released in the game and there's no way to add more?
I don't think so but we'll look. As I said in the blog these really aren't EVE players. They don't enjoy the game or play it as anything other than a business. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Logix42
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:52:00 -
[107] - Quote
Double high five for the security team! Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE.-á Check out the G-Doc list at http://bit.ly/wdatt or the Eve-áforum post at http://bit.ly/I56ebm |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
197
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:53:00 -
[108] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:corestwo wrote:These two words...they do not mean the same thing. I can type what I want
Drinking during the alliance panel at fanfest was hilarious, drinking at work is not. |
SXYGeeK
Wrecking Shots Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:02:00 -
[109] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:SXYGeeK wrote:
o/\o High fives for team security.
Kazanir gave us a very measured and respectful viewpoint as one of the folks "caught in the crossfire" his and others accounts may not have been banned, but that doesn't mean they aren't affected.
I do think the response was a little vacuous.
I'd love to hear something like.. "Yes I'll see where the petitions are hung up" or "our team is currently looking into this and other potential false positive petitions" or even "I am sorry to report there are findings of legitimate wrong doing" but i understand there is a limit to how much you can disclose about specific cases.
Thanks for the hard work security bros !
The intent of the response isn't to be vicious. The fact of the matter is that I can't discuss this here nor can I discuss an individual's situation with anyone other than this individual. No matter how nice the post is or how rude the rest of the posts on the exact same topic are the response cannot be any different. Were I a guy playing a videogame who had a bunch of his space stuff tied up in some other guy who I thought was innocent I might be a bit put out and I understand that completely. This just isn't the venue for that discussion as frustrating as that may be.
Thanks Sreegs, I really appreciate what your team is doing. I didn't say you where vicious! please know I don't want to infer you are doing these things out of malice. I said the statement was vacuous (lacking substance). but that is understandable based on CCP's policy of discussing user accounts.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3285
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Posted - 2012.04.26 18:02:00 -
[110] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Chribba wrote:Very nice! This is good to see.
However I am still wondering if you have any actions planned for spammers and the likes that are, many that are most likely a funding for RMT as well I'm sure.
Spam is a problem! It keeps cluttering up channels and some are very easy and obvious, day old alts. I personally report bots every day but some still keep spamming weeks in. Will there be a team/plan to instantly ban spammers sometime too?
imo some are so obvious it doesn't need any investigation - just an instant hammer.
Keep up the great work, hope to see the next update you give with even more RMT/botters/spammers gone.
/c Spam is an annoying problem and I am not sure it should reside with us but I'll start some emails internally and see what kind of conversation I can stir up. If the spam is being entered into chat via a macro, I think it should reside with you. I was just going to say this exact thing.
I'll just quote some of my recent tweets on the subject of bots in jita.
Quote:According to my stats, under the past 24h, the top 15 speakers in Jita were all spam bots, spamming 41.5% of all chat text #tweetfleet
Quote:Top 3 speakers in Jita in 2012: #1 Samantha Marley, #2 Widow Ohaya, #3 EureekasCastle Aucie #tweetfleet (all spambots btw...)
Plus some obvoius spambots: http://evelocal.com/p/Jazmine_Tsukaya http://evelocal.com/p/Jammie_Kahoudi http://evelocal.com/p/bfdy_fdsgg
Spamming by bots is a problem, and it is becoming more and more frequent. I use the report bot function every day on these guys but not sure if anything happens, at least I would love if they got banner quicker than for their trial to run out.
/c
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
607
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:14:00 -
[111] - Quote
I fapped while reading. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Florestan Bronstein
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
536
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:21:00 -
[112] - Quote
I wonder who these chest-beating, self-professed internet experts are who insist that this problem cannot be solved on the supply side...
GM Grimmi wrote:The demand for ISK is what keeps the RMT element alive. They'll keep coming back as long as players are willing to do business with them. We realize that the demand for ISK will not go away and we offer an alternative. |
Elmanketticks
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2012.04.26 18:26:00 -
[113] - Quote
After reading that I bought 6x PLEX via eveonline.com. You never know when u need em ;) FOR THE STATE! |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
68
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:27:00 -
[114] - Quote
Great Work, CCP has been doing so many things right in so many ways ... and hopefully seeing the results in player growth from giving players what they've demanded (iterative improvements always not a choice of new or old) you'll keep listenting to players (not obeying what you hear but giving it more than a passing consideration) in the future.
TO others in the thread.
Moles ! if Goons and almost every other hugely sucessful EVE alliance has engaged in spying and deep mole activities, don't you think that CCP would also engage in covert ops to gain intelligence ?
As covert agents they'd have access to out of game forums and likely could have engaged in sting operations without blowing their cover.
Lets say you get an email via an out of game forum asking you.. "hey, would you mind trading some WoW currency for some ISK" and go ahead and make that transaction assuming it was just a alliance mate.
They could use that sort of internal evidence to support their other suspicions. This isn't a court of law where they might need to give up the name of their mole and there is no reason they can't be as clever as players in their space exploits. I'm not sure that if that were a few hundred million isk and looked isolated they'd make a big deal of it.... but if they saw a pattern of exchanges done in the manner that a person requested it be done they very well might be more inclined to act.
I know that I was contacted once for a passing comment I made on an EVE forum about being willing to sell isk at a much lower price than the market IF I had CCP's blessing to do so (or if it somehow became legal to ignore that part of a EULA).
While I had made a conditional statement which clearly stated that as things stand I would not engage in such an activity, someone did contact me trying to see if I'd be willing to sell plex or isk for real $.
Now, as it was using ingame mail, it wasn't a very sneaky ploy or it was a real idiot of a player willing to ask via game channels. Of course all they got from me was a wall of text return evemail saying NO and explaining my reasoning why I would consider it stealing without CCP's blessing or a general move toward legal RMT microtransactions.
Still, such a thing coming via external channels could be quite a good way to crack down . I'd imagine it would be pretty easy for them to actually have an employer or contractor (magnum PI ?) buy gold from gold sellers and trace where the character with the isk got it from...... but they can also go the next step and post adds wanting to buy or trade isk for out of game services on outside game forums and bust people who contact them.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1103
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:29:00 -
[115] - Quote
"Be careful with whom you trade with - Team security will plunder your wallets harder than the goons."
Get |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
146
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:30:00 -
[116] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ines Fy wrote:Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy. He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk. So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process? One problem I have with this is that we're seeing patterns of activity where the isk is botted up and in this case we're printing isk at a rate which it should not be happening at out of thin air. At the end of the day though I'm not an economics guy so the assets sit in the banned accounts until or unless someone decides to use them for something. I'd considered at one point using them as a reward system but I can't get over the fact that a lot of this stuff just simply shouldnGÇÖt exist and that can't be good for an economy. I like the idea of an GÇÿEBCGÇÖ. It gives CCP a tool to sink isk from the economy without manipulating taxes & fees. Using confiscated goods (goods only, no isk) to do it would be rather like a SheriffGÇÖs Auction, but the isk would go back to the central bank rather than continuing to circulate.
I understand that you have reservations about returning ill-gotten goods to the economy, but thereGÇÖs a sizeable amount of isk in circulation that was created through illicit means as well; and Dr. E. seems to be more worried about the isk at this point.
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1131
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Posted - 2012.04.26 18:31:00 -
[117] - Quote
VaMei wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ines Fy wrote:Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy. He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk. So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process? One problem I have with this is that we're seeing patterns of activity where the isk is botted up and in this case we're printing isk at a rate which it should not be happening at out of thin air. At the end of the day though I'm not an economics guy so the assets sit in the banned accounts until or unless someone decides to use them for something. I'd considered at one point using them as a reward system but I can't get over the fact that a lot of this stuff just simply shouldnGÇÖt exist and that can't be good for an economy. I like the idea of an GÇÿEBCGÇÖ. It gives CCP a tool to sink isk from the economy without manipulating taxes & fees. Using confiscated goods (goods only, no isk) to do it would be rather like a SheriffGÇÖs Auction, but the isk would go back to the central bank rather than continuing to circulate. I understand that you have reservations about returning ill-gotten goods to the economy, but thereGÇÖs a sizeable amount of isk in circulation that was created through illicit means as well; and Dr. E. seems to be more worried about the isk at this point.
The isk was created to purchase the goods. :) "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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kakmonstret
Domain Mining and Trading Corp
6
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Posted - 2012.04.26 18:39:00 -
[118] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
The isk was created to purchase the goods. :)
Yes but alot of that goods was created by other players not cheating and thus not add to the system illegally . The stuff bought from NPC:s ofcourse was created by that isk.
The again money was sent out from the cheating player for that goods and I guess you are not reversing all those trades too.
But a middle ground here would be to sell on those things that are of a type that only players can create.
Ninja edit:
Problem is that those things *should* be in game not the isk that was traded for it. This suggestion actually helps pulling some of that isk out of the game |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
198
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:40:00 -
[119] - Quote
Except as he already stated those items shouldn't belong in the game anyway as they were often times obtained through extensive botting and so why would they sell them? |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1132
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:45:00 -
[120] - Quote
I'm seeing some confusion and need to point out that the botting actions are still ongoing. This is an RMT-related blog and doesn't touch upon botting numbers at all. We'll do those another time. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1103
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:49:00 -
[121] - Quote
oh and btw there are still market bots in jita which keep buying (small amounts of) stuff with highest buy order, set up lowest sell order right away and maintain it by keeping the order lowest until sold.
You notice these bots rather easily as they are usually involved with very many products and when you sell something to their buy order the same stuff appears to sell order always faster than it would humanly be possible to set up such order. The orders obviously stay on top/low pretty much constantly.
These things are really annoying, specially if the items involved are already manipulated or on short supply.
Please give some time to research this. Thank you.
Get |
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
377
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:49:00 -
[122] - Quote
Extensive botting being funneled into an RMT ring is probably the most common setup seen in the ~1600 banned accounts and it is safe to assume that the majority of the ISK and assets in question come either from botting or trojan-hijacked people. The latter is a problem that can only be reversed upon a detailed investigation, and botted assets should, economically speaking, remain banned.
Also, doing anything with those PLEX on banned accounts would be terrible for CCP's bottom line. PLEX that will never be redeemed are free money and should be treated that way. The accounting term for this is breakage, although I am not familiar with the nature or extent of Iceland's escheat laws that would govern unredeemed PLEX.
Anyway Sreegs is definitely doing the right thing by leaving those assets in the Phantom Zone. |
Visreae
Iskitution Philanderies Associated
12
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Posted - 2012.04.26 18:52:00 -
[123] - Quote
I have evidence of a huge RMT operation. Worth a considerable amount of plex/$ that was part of a large internet advertising campaign. The campaign was successful and the originators made out like bandits close to $30k in proceeds in one day. This lead to an obvious bump in some ship costs, especially those with prices tied closely to the cost of plex. The day this occurred you could see the avg price for plex going up as well as cost of ships, a huge, nay, obvious indicator of inflation. What is most disturbing as this originated within CCP itself. What steps are being done to make sure CCP sanctioned RMT, circumventing their own rules and ethos, doesn't impact our economy? Because all your efforts towards stopping RMT'ers seems to be guided at clearing the field of competition for ccp, and thats not just shady or monopolistic its hypocritical and mob like.... |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
68
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:55:00 -
[124] - Quote
Visreae wrote:I have evidence of a huge RMT operation. Worth a considerable amount of plex/$ that was part of a large internet advertising campaign. The campaign was successful and the originators made out like bandits close to $30k in proceeds in one day. This lead to an obvious bump in some ship costs, especially those with prices tied closely to the cost of plex. The day this occurred you could see the avg price for plex going up as well as cost of ships, a huge, nay, obvious indicator of inflation. What is most disturbing as this originated within CCP itself. What steps are being done to make sure CCP sanctioned RMT, circumventing their own rules and ethos, doesn't impact our economy? Because all your efforts towards stopping RMT'ers seems to be guided at clearing the field of competition for ccp, and thats not just shady or monopolistic its hypocritical and mob like....
LMAO
How Dare a game company try to sell more subscriptions and virtual items for $ !
Global agenda and Club Penquin must be right up there with the Gambino family! |
Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness
14
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Posted - 2012.04.26 19:00:00 -
[125] - Quote
Sorry, but I have an irresistible compulsion to be pedantic here.
RMT ISK sales are not "illegal." They do not meet any countries' legal definition of a crime (AFAIK). They are against the EULA, but breaking the EULA is not illegal (despite certain protestations by certain US federal courts and politicians whenever it happens suits their PR interests). The EULA has language specifically dealing with EULA violations, specifying cancellation of the account.
A more correct term would be "unauthorized."
I feel that I have to point this out precisely because of the aforementioned US federal courts and politicians (especially politicians!) who go out of their way to cast everything they don't happen to like as being a crime; the fact that you don't like something does not make it criminal.
(Of course, fraudulently breaking into an account may, depending upon the circumstances, meet the legal definition of a crime, but that's not what this devblog was about.)
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Visreae
Iskitution Philanderies Associated
12
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Posted - 2012.04.26 19:01:00 -
[126] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:Visreae wrote:I have evidence of a huge RMT operation. Worth a considerable amount of plex/$ that was part of a large internet advertising campaign. The campaign was successful and the originators made out like bandits close to $30k in proceeds in one day. This lead to an obvious bump in some ship costs, especially those with prices tied closely to the cost of plex. The day this occurred you could see the avg price for plex going up as well as cost of ships, a huge, nay, obvious indicator of inflation. What is most disturbing as this originated within CCP itself. What steps are being done to make sure CCP sanctioned RMT, circumventing their own rules and ethos, doesn't impact our economy? Because all your efforts towards stopping RMT'ers seems to be guided at clearing the field of competition for ccp, and thats not just shady or monopolistic its hypocritical and mob like.... LMAO How Dare a game company try to sell more subscriptions and virtual items for $ ! Global agenda and Club Penquin must be right up there with the Gambino family!
I was referring the graphics card scam they ran a few weeks ago. They charged 20 plex for a gcard worth ~16. And attempted to justify it. I almost puked. If they exchange real life goods and services for game items and vice versa then everyone else should be able to as well. There are other concerns at stake beyond our economy, customers identitys and bank accounts(and so future customer-hood) are at stake so this does need to be sniffed out and purged, but not to be replaced by CCP'Scam. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1672
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:19:00 -
[127] - Quote
Visreae wrote:Diomedes Calypso wrote:Visreae wrote:I have evidence of a huge RMT operation. Worth a considerable amount of plex/$ that was part of a large internet advertising campaign. The campaign was successful and the originators made out like bandits close to $30k in proceeds in one day. This lead to an obvious bump in some ship costs, especially those with prices tied closely to the cost of plex. The day this occurred you could see the avg price for plex going up as well as cost of ships, a huge, nay, obvious indicator of inflation. What is most disturbing as this originated within CCP itself. What steps are being done to make sure CCP sanctioned RMT, circumventing their own rules and ethos, doesn't impact our economy? Because all your efforts towards stopping RMT'ers seems to be guided at clearing the field of competition for ccp, and thats not just shady or monopolistic its hypocritical and mob like.... LMAO How Dare a game company try to sell more subscriptions and virtual items for $ ! Global agenda and Club Penquin must be right up there with the Gambino family! I was referring the graphics card scam they ran a few weeks ago. They charged 20 plex for a gcard worth ~16. And attempted to justify it. I almost puked. If they exchange real life goods and services for game items and vice versa then everyone else should be able to as well. There are other concerns at stake beyond our economy, customers identitys and bank accounts(and so future customer-hood) so this does need to be sniffed out and purged, but not to be replaced by CCP'Scam.
Game items and currency are the property of CCP. Why should anyone else be able to exchange them for goods and services without CCP's express permission?
From your point of view, I should feel quite free to come over and take your car and then go trade it for a ski boat. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
68
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:21:00 -
[128] - Quote
Visreae wrote: I was referring the graphics card scam they ran a few weeks ago. They charged 20 plex for a gcard worth ~16. And attempted to justify it. I almost puked. If they exchange real life goods and services for game items and vice versa then everyone else should be able to as well. There are other concerns at stake beyond our economy, customers identitys and bank accounts(and so future customer-hood) are at stake so this does need to be sniffed out and purged, but not to be replaced by CCP'Scam.
I understand the distinction you're making then.
Taking issue with your premise would take a detailed debate on the $ value of a plex held by a player and the cost (if any) for CCP to give free game time to players who would only play with free game time. Below is a cliff note version.
In the forum post I reffered to a few posts ago, I had mentioned that IF it had CCP's blessing I'd sell a few hundred plex for $3 a piece. Whether or not the plex are worth 17$ to you, the market would determine the value. As it is against the terms of the Eula to sell the plex they would conceiveably be worth even less than $2 to me.
IF I were to have bought the video card for plex, the "rip-off" would not be nearly in the realm you are suggesting. I'm not sure the cost of the Card at best buy, not a steep discount site.. but if the deal included shipping and handling and the card frequently sold for $40 retail there wouldn't be any "rip off" at all for people in my situation.
No-one was forced into the transaction so it could have been and EXcellent value for those with tight RL budgets (perhaps disabled, out of work, or with children who they're rather buy an additional pair of shoes on than spend extra on thier personal hobby) and hundreds of billions of isk /assets that they enjoyed piling up as carebears or traders etc (im a trader...I enjoy making isk.. i largely played the game with the sanbox goal of making isk being equal to the sandbox goal of collecting killmails.)
Just because some people are willing to buy plex for ~ $17 via legitimate channels doesn't mean that the value of real money converted to a game asset has the same reverse transaction value.
Maybe I'd grant you something in between my perpective and your perpective as I won't deny that I they both have a rational basis, yet certainly its not black or white... other than if people were informed of the RLvalue being $16 yet they still chose to use 20 plex for it, that you can't argue that those people don't have the right to determine whether or not it is a good value to them. |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
45
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:22:00 -
[129] - Quote
Visreae wrote:Diomedes Calypso wrote:Visreae wrote:I have evidence of a huge RMT operation. Worth a considerable amount of plex/$ that was part of a large internet advertising campaign. The campaign was successful and the originators made out like bandits close to $30k in proceeds in one day. This lead to an obvious bump in some ship costs, especially those with prices tied closely to the cost of plex. The day this occurred you could see the avg price for plex going up as well as cost of ships, a huge, nay, obvious indicator of inflation. What is most disturbing as this originated within CCP itself. What steps are being done to make sure CCP sanctioned RMT, circumventing their own rules and ethos, doesn't impact our economy? Because all your efforts towards stopping RMT'ers seems to be guided at clearing the field of competition for ccp, and thats not just shady or monopolistic its hypocritical and mob like.... LMAO How Dare a game company try to sell more subscriptions and virtual items for $ ! Global agenda and Club Penquin must be right up there with the Gambino family! I was referring the graphics card scam they ran a few weeks ago. They charged 20 plex for a gcard worth ~16. And attempted to justify it. I almost puked. If they exchange real life goods and services for game items and vice versa then everyone else should be able to as well. There are other concerns at stake beyond our economy, customers identitys and bank accounts(and so future customer-hood) so this does need to be sniffed out and purged, but not to be replaced by CCP'Scam.
"If they exchange real life goods and services for game items and vice versa then everyone else should be able to as well. "
Now this has to be the most stupid sentence i ever read in my whole life.
I strongly suggest you consider biomassing your char and getting accepted in some clinic for retards.
I'm actually mad because of the unique stupidity of that sentence. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1156
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:23:00 -
[130] - Quote
Toawa wrote:Sorry, but I have an irresistible compulsion to be pedantic here.
RMT ISK sales are not "illegal." They do not meet any countries' legal definition of a crime (AFAIK). They are against the EULA, but breaking the EULA is not illegal (despite certain protestations by certain US federal courts and politicians whenever it happens suits their PR interests). The EULA has language specifically dealing with EULA violations, specifying cancellation of the account.
A more correct term would be "unauthorized."
I feel that I have to point this out precisely because of the aforementioned US federal courts and politicians (especially politicians!) who go out of their way to cast everything they don't happen to like as being a crime; the fact that you don't like something does not make it criminal.
(Of course, fraudulently breaking into an account may, depending upon the circumstances, meet the legal definition of a crime, but that's not what this devblog was about.)
Selling something that doesn't belong to you against the agreements you've agreed to an the will of hte rightful owner seems pretty illegal to me but you're free to use whatever words make you the most happy. :) "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1672
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:23:00 -
[131] - Quote
Quote:detailed debate on the $ value of a plex held by a player
The $ value of a plex held by a player is zero. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
45
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:25:00 -
[132] - Quote
Danny Centauri wrote:Hey there, Some actual research that could help you guys out. First these EVE ISK companies are relying upon two methods to attack the EVE community and get customers. Firstly letGÇÖs deal with PPC advertising on Google, I will only deal with Google as that will cover the vast majority of the issue (some similar work may be required with Bing to cover the problem in the US). Right now PPC is a massive problem as itGÇÖs an instant trip to the top of the SERPs with the majority of Google users not realising that people pay for these rankings and that it is no indication that Google actually trust these sites just purely based upon the fact that they paid to be there. As EVE online ISK and other EVE assets are copyrighted then get in touch with Google and make a Digital Millennium Copyright Act request to Google complaining about the copyrighted materials appearing on these ISK selling websites. This will then either force the site into removing these assets or if they donGÇÖt then Google will delist them not only from the regular SERPs but also from PPC. Secondly onto regular results in the SERPs and how these can be tackled. Well to put it simply these companies are scammy as hell and their whole online strategy is based around spammy link building something which is actually against Googles guidelines, so straight away report them: https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/spamreport?hl=en&pli=1Then start your own site targeted towards the keyword table below, based around the effects of RMT on the EVE community and the risks of getting caught. You simply have to create better content than them and then plea to the EVE community to all write a blog post about RMT and buying ISK and link it to your site. If you ask people to use the anchor text for the exact keyword then great, if not donGÇÖt worry too much as Google have recently reduced the value of anchor text on links. Site traffic for iskspot.com: Query Percent of Search Traffic buy isk 37.10% eve online isk 21.49% eve isk 13.41% iskspot support 2.19% buy eve isk 2.12% iskspot safe 1.98% damage dealing eve 1.29% eve high-tech weapons 1.12% eve security status 0.90% eve weapons upgrades 5 0.78% They have 2,820 back links of which 295 come from 255 websites with the anchor text GÇÿeve ISKGÇÖ and 254 come from 225 websites with the anchor text GÇÿbuy iskGÇÖ. This is something we can easily beat as a community especially with high PR links from the main EVE sites. Finally one last recommendation is to make a youtube video optimised for the keywords buy isk, perhaps go for a title like GÇÿbuy ISKGǪ suffer the consequencesGÇÖ. This will then with a little bit of work appear in the SERPs too as Google love putting Youtube videos at the top of the SERPS effectively giving you double top positions and knocking everyone else actually selling ISK below the fold. If you steal their traffic you kill their industry. If you require any advice or want any further information please feel free to contact me. I'm sure there are plenty more SEO'ers in the community that could offer you further advice too. Good luck killing RMT. Regards, Danny
I think this post deserves more attention.
Btw i'm impressed by how this team is working.
Great job, keep it up. Thanks.
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Mirima Thurander
Angels of Valour G00DFELLAS
277
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:48:00 -
[133] - Quote
with out giving out numbers where more of the banned account using plex or paying with moneys?
and on your one post about thinking about using the banned items as rewards, get people to use them in CCP live events so there's a chance they might get blown up or something but there still there.
i mean all that DED/officer loot that's just sitting there if that rmt or botter hand gotten to it first it some other player would of gotten it.
now faction loot that was botted up burn it in a fire. I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh.
|
Ugleb
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
189
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:49:00 -
[134] - Quote
In the name of spreading the word and ensuring that it keeps on getting spread, why not do a simple monthly update blog on security announcing the monthly numbers of RMT bans/reversals and reminding players of the wonderful thing known as PLEX?
I like to hear about RMT'ers getting banned so would not feel inconvenienced by this. :) http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |
Celebris Nexterra
Lowsec Static
45
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:01:00 -
[135] - Quote
Voidfinger wrote:Man I love spending 500+ million for a abbadon!
^^Spotted the RMTer |
Mongo Edwards
Grey Templars Ushra'Khan
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:21:00 -
[136] - Quote
Is there any info on what percentage of the assets seized were built by the RMTers for sale? Like how much of the 4.2 trillion came from seized Capitals and Super caps? |
Mikk36
Reval Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:33:00 -
[137] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Toawa wrote:Sorry, but I have an irresistible compulsion to be pedantic here.
RMT ISK sales are not "illegal." They do not meet any countries' legal definition of a crime (AFAIK). They are against the EULA, but breaking the EULA is not illegal (despite certain protestations by certain US federal courts and politicians whenever it happens suits their PR interests). The EULA has language specifically dealing with EULA violations, specifying cancellation of the account.
A more correct term would be "unauthorized."
I feel that I have to point this out precisely because of the aforementioned US federal courts and politicians (especially politicians!) who go out of their way to cast everything they don't happen to like as being a crime; the fact that you don't like something does not make it criminal.
(Of course, fraudulently breaking into an account may, depending upon the circumstances, meet the legal definition of a crime, but that's not what this devblog was about.)
Selling something that doesn't belong to you against the agreements you've agreed to an the will of hte rightful owner seems pretty illegal to me but you're free to use whatever words make you the most happy. :) To my understanding, if it were illegal, you could sue people for RMT'ing or botting the game, but you can't, so all you can do is terminate their accounts and stop providing them the service. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
204
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:44:00 -
[138] - Quote
Mikk36 wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Toawa wrote:Sorry, but I have an irresistible compulsion to be pedantic here.
RMT ISK sales are not "illegal." They do not meet any countries' legal definition of a crime (AFAIK). They are against the EULA, but breaking the EULA is not illegal (despite certain protestations by certain US federal courts and politicians whenever it happens suits their PR interests). The EULA has language specifically dealing with EULA violations, specifying cancellation of the account.
A more correct term would be "unauthorized."
I feel that I have to point this out precisely because of the aforementioned US federal courts and politicians (especially politicians!) who go out of their way to cast everything they don't happen to like as being a crime; the fact that you don't like something does not make it criminal.
(Of course, fraudulently breaking into an account may, depending upon the circumstances, meet the legal definition of a crime, but that's not what this devblog was about.)
Selling something that doesn't belong to you against the agreements you've agreed to an the will of hte rightful owner seems pretty illegal to me but you're free to use whatever words make you the most happy. :) To my understanding, if it were illegal, you could sue people for RMT'ing or botting the game, but you can't, so all you can do is terminate their accounts and stop providing them the service.
No one cares about the semantics. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1186
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:44:00 -
[139] - Quote
Mikk36 wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Toawa wrote:Sorry, but I have an irresistible compulsion to be pedantic here.
RMT ISK sales are not "illegal." They do not meet any countries' legal definition of a crime (AFAIK). They are against the EULA, but breaking the EULA is not illegal (despite certain protestations by certain US federal courts and politicians whenever it happens suits their PR interests). The EULA has language specifically dealing with EULA violations, specifying cancellation of the account.
A more correct term would be "unauthorized."
I feel that I have to point this out precisely because of the aforementioned US federal courts and politicians (especially politicians!) who go out of their way to cast everything they don't happen to like as being a crime; the fact that you don't like something does not make it criminal.
(Of course, fraudulently breaking into an account may, depending upon the circumstances, meet the legal definition of a crime, but that's not what this devblog was about.)
Selling something that doesn't belong to you against the agreements you've agreed to an the will of hte rightful owner seems pretty illegal to me but you're free to use whatever words make you the most happy. :) To my understanding, if it were illegal, you could sue people for RMT'ing or botting the game, but you can't, so all you can do is terminate their accounts and stop providing them the service.
Your ability to sue people and legality are two distinct and different things. You can sue someone for anything. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Voidfinger
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:02:00 -
[140] - Quote
Celebris Nexterra wrote:Voidfinger wrote:Man I love spending 500+ million for a abbadon! ^^Spotted the RMTer
lol nope, my money goes to CCP every month. plus if you could looks at my isk balance you would laugh so no, no rmt'ing here. Just cried having to spend 3/4 of my balance I had on a battle ship that I could get for 70-100 million a month ago.
I'm all for squashing rmt'ing just wish it didn't flip ship prices so badly, then again I'm all for quashing the competition to leave the field open for yourself with no restrictions. Happens on the streets a lot, competition comes along and drive by ... problem solved. prices go back up :) |
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Gao Charen-Teng
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:03:00 -
[141] - Quote
I agree that RMT is bad for the game and should be stamped out where it can be found. It seems like Team Security is working on the problem, and that they will continue doing so. I applaud both.
That said, I don't think 6 trillion seized is very much. It's a lot of zeros, but a small bit of the economy. I've never seen a number for the total asset value in the game, but some sources do talk about raw ISK at least. Taken together, it sounds like trillions of isk are net-created every day, and the total isk in existence is at least hundreds of trillions and growing sharply. But even this should be a small fraction of the total asset value in the game. If you're counting everything from trit to titans, 6T sounds far, far less impressive.
This means one of two things. Either: A) There's not that much RMT after all. OR B) This round of security is pretty ineffective except possibly as a warning to potential RMTer, or just good PR.
Personally my guess is it's A. There are a handful of miscreants that we can be happy about punching in the face, but it's not really a big factor in gameplay. I know RMT happens. But I've seen far, far less of it in Eve than other games. Probably that's due to the brilliant CCP-sanctioned PLEX and character markets. And that's a good thing. Team Security dug around in their databases, did some super-secret espionage, or whatever they did, and found that "huh, the game's design already solved this problem, for the most part". |
Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:17:00 -
[142] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Selling something that doesn't belong to you against the agreements you've agreed to an the will of hte rightful owner seems pretty illegal to me but you're free to use whatever words make you the most happy. :)
That would be morally wrong, but not necessarily illegal. (Hell, governments do it all the time. They just usually pass laws that say it's not illegal when they do it.)
If something is illegal, it necessarily implies a claim on the government's monopoly of force to correct a situation. RMT (taken on its own, not including issues of where the ISK comes from), assuming the transaction is completed as advertised (IE, the RMTer doesn't take the RL money and run), does not invoke a claim on the government's monopoly of force to correct it. Therefore, it is not illegal. |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
133
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:19:00 -
[143] - Quote
Awesome work Team Security! The isk removed from the game must have been Gargantuan if the total stuff removed was was that large. As much As I would love to see the additional isk removed by selling the seized stuff, this is a miss use of time GÇ£counting beansGÇ¥ and could run against the GÇ£free marketGÇ¥ that Eve has, as CCP starts playing with things out side of Economists hands. This just opens a whole new barrel of fish and CCP has other sinks they plan to implement.
It is nice seeing new eden have its organs fixed (inferno and Crucible implementing fixes) and parasites removed (Banning of RMT, Botters)
Thank you CCP for making Eve Healthy again, able to run the long term marathon of the MMO market. The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
Danny Centauri
Real Time Industries
50
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:35:00 -
[144] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Danny Centauri wrote:Hey there, Some actual research that could help you guys out. First these EVE ISK companies are relying upon two methods to attack the EVE community and get customers. Firstly letGÇÖs deal with PPC advertising on Google, I will only deal with Google as that will cover the vast majority of the issue (some similar work may be required with Bing to cover the problem in the US). Right now PPC is a massive problem as itGÇÖs an instant trip to the top of the SERPs with the majority of Google users not realising that people pay for these rankings and that it is no indication that Google actually trust these sites just purely based upon the fact that they paid to be there. As EVE online ISK and other EVE assets are copyrighted then get in touch with Google and make a Digital Millennium Copyright Act request to Google complaining about the copyrighted materials appearing on these ISK selling websites. This will then either force the site into removing these assets or if they donGÇÖt then Google will delist them not only from the regular SERPs but also from PPC. Secondly onto regular results in the SERPs and how these can be tackled. Well to put it simply these companies are scammy as hell and their whole online strategy is based around spammy link building something which is actually against Googles guidelines, so straight away report them: https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/spamreport?hl=en&pli=1Then start your own site targeted towards the keyword table below, based around the effects of RMT on the EVE community and the risks of getting caught. You simply have to create better content than them and then plea to the EVE community to all write a blog post about RMT and buying ISK and link it to your site. If you ask people to use the anchor text for the exact keyword then great, if not donGÇÖt worry too much as Google have recently reduced the value of anchor text on links. Site traffic for iskspot.com: Query Percent of Search Traffic buy isk 37.10% eve online isk 21.49% eve isk 13.41% iskspot support 2.19% buy eve isk 2.12% iskspot safe 1.98% damage dealing eve 1.29% eve high-tech weapons 1.12% eve security status 0.90% eve weapons upgrades 5 0.78% They have 2,820 back links of which 295 come from 255 websites with the anchor text GÇÿeve ISKGÇÖ and 254 come from 225 websites with the anchor text GÇÿbuy iskGÇÖ. This is something we can easily beat as a community especially with high PR links from the main EVE sites. Finally one last recommendation is to make a youtube video optimised for the keywords buy isk, perhaps go for a title like GÇÿbuy ISKGǪ suffer the consequencesGÇÖ. This will then with a little bit of work appear in the SERPs too as Google love putting Youtube videos at the top of the SERPS effectively giving you double top positions and knocking everyone else actually selling ISK below the fold. If you steal their traffic you kill their industry. If you require any advice or want any further information please feel free to contact me. I'm sure there are plenty more SEO'ers in the community that could offer you further advice too. Good luck killing RMT. Regards, Danny I think this post deserves more attention. Btw i'm impressed by how this team is working. Great job, keep it up. Thanks.
Thanks was hoping for a response on this one, I know its a tad more than the average couple of sentences for a response. SEO could really help out CCP on the whole I wouldn't even blink if you said you was spending in the region of Gé¼10k per month with Google on PPC.
Seen it with many companies burning money on PPC that would be better spent for long term gains on SEO, simply because SEO is almost unknown by traditional marketeers especially when everyone is so busy jumping up and down about social media yet struggling to measure their results from their social spend. /rant over
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Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:35:00 -
[145] - Quote
Graphs! Where are the graphs! |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1189
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:45:00 -
[146] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:Graphs! Where are the graphs!
Graphs are Stillman's department "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Quade Warren
Urban Mining Corp Rising Phoenix Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:55:00 -
[147] - Quote
Burn them all.
On a side note, you could make these actions a part of the "eve lore" so you can insert it wherever proper.
"Money launderers were imprisoned today by a CONCORD task force that was specifically created to attack this new threat to governments in New Eden. An estimated 4.2 trillion isk was confiscated and has been used as evidence in upcoming criminal trials."
With a special footnote in italics: RMTers beware... |
Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:58:00 -
[148] - Quote
Danny Centauri wrote: As EVE online ISK and other EVE assets are copyrighted then get in touch with Google and make a Digital Millennium Copyright Act request to Google complaining about the copyrighted materials appearing on these ISK selling websites. This will then either force the site into removing these assets or if they donGÇÖt then Google will delist them not only from the regular SERPs but also from PPC.
This would be an abuse of the DMCA. ISK as a word cannot be copyrighted, because you can't copyright a word. You'd have a hard time making any copyright claim to "ISK" or "EVE Online ISK" under copyright law. Now, if they're taking images from CCP's sites, that's another matter.
And copyright law doesn't even begin to cover actions taken within the game to transfer ISK from one party to another.
That being said, I'd imagine there are avenues open under Trademark law.
(Far, far too many people confuse Copyright law, Trademark law, and Patent law. The more we can do to end that confusion, the better.)
(Standard IANAL disclaimer.) |
Danny Centauri
Real Time Industries
51
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 22:06:00 -
[149] - Quote
Toawa wrote:Danny Centauri wrote: As EVE online ISK and other EVE assets are copyrighted then get in touch with Google and make a Digital Millennium Copyright Act request to Google complaining about the copyrighted materials appearing on these ISK selling websites. This will then either force the site into removing these assets or if they donGÇÖt then Google will delist them not only from the regular SERPs but also from PPC.
This would be an abuse of the DMCA. ISK as a word cannot be copyrighted, because you can't copyright a word. You'd have a hard time making any copyright claim to "ISK" or "EVE Online ISK" under copyright law. Now, if they're taking images from CCP's sites, that's another matter. That being said, I'd imagine there are avenues open under Trademark law. (Far, far too many people confuse Copyright law, Trademark law, and Patent law. The more we can do to end that confusion, the better.) (Standard IANAL disclaimer.)
Hey this guy talks sense. A lot of the sites I looked at during my research stole pictures, the ones that didn't looked even more scammy. Simply putting in a DMCA request due to images would be a success IMO as most dodgy *insert country here* websites won't even read the mail to their analytics account and will end up getting delisted.
Personally I would argue that ISK farmers are using someones else's interlectually property to make money, surely that isn't right especially as they are using CCPs resources in order to make the profit (if we assume anyone logged on TQ is using CCPs resources).
But yeah anyway this guy made fair points the legal avenue is definately one that should be explored. Every RMT char ban is a drop in the price of PLEX - down with RMTers!
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
204
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 22:08:00 -
[150] - Quote
Toawa wrote:Danny Centauri wrote: As EVE online ISK and other EVE assets are copyrighted then get in touch with Google and make a Digital Millennium Copyright Act request to Google complaining about the copyrighted materials appearing on these ISK selling websites. This will then either force the site into removing these assets or if they donGÇÖt then Google will delist them not only from the regular SERPs but also from PPC.
This would be an abuse of the DMCA. ISK as a word cannot be copyrighted, because you can't copyright a word. You'd have a hard time making any copyright claim to "ISK" or "EVE Online ISK" under copyright law. Now, if they're taking images from CCP's sites, that's another matter. And copyright law doesn't even begin to cover actions taken within the game to transfer ISK from one party to another. That being said, I'd imagine there are avenues open under Trademark law. (Far, far too many people confuse Copyright law, Trademark law, and Patent law. The more we can do to end that confusion, the better.) (Standard IANAL disclaimer.)
Not to mention that ISK is also the currency code for Iceland's kr+¦na... |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
621
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 22:12:00 -
[151] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:Graphs! Where are the graphs! Graphs are Stillman's department
How about tables? How many and how much week one, week two, week three? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Etil DeLaFuente
New Eclipse Initiative Mercenaries
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 23:09:00 -
[152] - Quote
PIES! we want PIES! |
profundus fossura
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 23:35:00 -
[153] - Quote
Great work CCP - keep it up. and please keep the blogs on RMT/Botting coming.
+1 for pies |
Fyrkraag
The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 00:17:00 -
[154] - Quote
I've been inactive in New Eden since "monocle gate" of last year, and I have quietly been watching and reading the fixes made to the game in hopes of mustering up interest in coming back and re-activating my alts.
I have to say, this RMT clamp down has been one of those most significant actions CCP has done in rekindling my interests.
I despise people using money to gain an advantage over others, but at least with PLEX, it does go to support the development of the game and someone else somewhere can legitamitely support their account through in-game activities (I prefer to think of them as "another target"), which makes it at least bearable.
RMTrs on the other hand, are pure scum.
Please never relax your stance against RMT.
|
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 01:10:00 -
[155] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Unfortunately RMT tears are a bit harder to harvest but if you can find a way feel free to share (don't link the site) and I will give you a virtual hug in my head.
Haven't found a seller but did find a buyer...
Dumb Busted Botter wrote:so with 3 of my miners being down I couldn't afford a PLEX with isk so I bought one for 9 bucks, anyways it was taken from me and I got this nice little notification.
has anyone else been banned lately since fanfest?
Buying in-game items/ISK for real money From: GM ****** Sent: today To: ***********,
According to our logs, you have received in-game assets (ISK or other items) from characters which have been verified as having been involved in selling these assets for real money. We can only conclude that you have bought these assets for real money and we are therefore issuing a formal warning in accordance with our policies since this is a breach of the EULA section 7.B. We have also removed the PLEX you obtained from your hangar.
As we have mentioned, buying in-game items from illicit sources such as ISK selling/Real Money Trading websites or auction sites is a serious EULA violation and is damaging to our game world. The ISK or assets you obtained have been acquired by hacking into other playerGÇÖs accounts, by buying PLEX with stolen credit cards or by using modified clients and macros. We hope that you understand, in light of these facts, why we must take action against such activities. We also hope you realise that there is a possibility of your computer being at risk of being hacked by the ISK sellers and you should take steps to ensure that your computer is free of viruses, trojans, worms or other malicious software.
We would like to point out that if you need to supplement your wallet balance by buying more ISK, then you have the option to buy PLEX from the EVE Online website and then sell them on the market, since this is the only way that you may buy ISK legitimately. We also sincerely hope that this will the the only time that we will have to issue a warning of this nature and should point out that any other similar incidents in the future will lead to further action being taken against your account, up to and including a permanent ban.
Regards, EVE Online Customer Support
Botter #2 wrote:curious about this... you needed a plex so instead of just buying one from eve itself you paid hmm $6 less and got one from a place that sells isk etc when you know they go after real money traders and this is right after you got 3 14 day bans?
The Nosy Gamer |
Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 02:11:00 -
[156] - Quote
Loving it. Treat the bogey man to a permanent ban. |
Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 02:16:00 -
[157] - Quote
This is an amazing achievement, keep up the solid work guys! |
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 03:10:00 -
[158] - Quote
Go Sreegs! Hit 'em, hit 'em again, and kick 'em while they're down! |
Ayame Tao
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 03:36:00 -
[159] - Quote
Toawa wrote:Sorry, but I have an irresistible compulsion to be pedantic here.
RMT ISK sales are not "illegal." They do not meet any countries' legal definition of a crime (AFAIK). They are against the EULA, but breaking the EULA is not illegal (despite certain protestations by certain US federal courts and politicians whenever it happens suits their PR interests). The EULA has language specifically dealing with EULA violations, specifying cancellation of the account.
A more correct term would be "unauthorized."
I feel that I have to point this out precisely because of the aforementioned US federal courts and politicians (especially politicians!) who go out of their way to cast everything they don't happen to like as being a crime; the fact that you don't like something does not make it criminal.
(Of course, fraudulently breaking into an account may, depending upon the circumstances, meet the legal definition of a crime, but that's not what this devblog was about.)
RMT operations could very really be classed a crime, most likely Fraud (payment card fraud or plain selling what's not theirs to sell (criminal conversion) or Computer Crime related (unlawful access, hacking)
Difficulty is that online, it is nearly impossible without massive resources and cooperation from disparate governments and enforcement aganecies to track down, reliably identify and prosecute perpetrators.
CCP is pretty much doing the best it can by taking a stand and kicking as many of them in the nuts as hard as they can through the means they have (bans, blacklists, publicity)
(Standard IANALE disclaimer :) )
|
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
148
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 03:56:00 -
[160] - Quote
VaMei wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ines Fy wrote:Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy. He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk. So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process? One problem I have with this is that we're seeing patterns of activity where the isk is botted up and in this case we're printing isk at a rate which it should not be happening at out of thin air. At the end of the day though I'm not an economics guy so the assets sit in the banned accounts until or unless someone decides to use them for something. I'd considered at one point using them as a reward system but I can't get over the fact that a lot of this stuff just simply shouldnGÇÖt exist and that can't be good for an economy. I like the idea of an GÇÿEBCGÇÖ. It gives CCP a tool to sink isk from the economy without manipulating taxes & fees. Using confiscated goods (goods only, no isk) to do it would be rather like a SheriffGÇÖs Auction, but the isk would go back to the central bank rather than continuing to circulate. I understand that you have reservations about returning ill-gotten goods to the economy, but thereGÇÖs a sizeable amount of isk in circulation that was created through illicit means as well; and Dr. E. seems to be more worried about the isk at this point.
Basically the same thing I thought of when I read that post. Government and police often do auction of assets seized from criminals and those unable to pay their tax debts, and banks do the same with foreclosed homes, etc.. Would be an interesting way of redistributing assets on seized accounts while sinking ISK back to CCP to destroy.
I can't see how they would spend it, so it is effectively destroyed as far as I'm concerned. This also offsets the issue of redistibuting assets that were gathered by botting and such being inappropriate. Wipe the ISK on the accounts, redistribute the assets, sink the ISK from that redistribution and remove it from game.
Obviously there are going to be some assets which may be very common and potentially capable of unsettling the market in a mass redistribution, and there is the possibility that only the truly wealthy of EVE may pick up those redistributed assets. Okay, that one is very likely.
It's not like most of us have the ability to compete in auctions for anything worth anything, and auctioning T1 items in bits would be tedious at best. Stacking everything of common value and either deleting it or auctioning it wholesale would make more sense. 1000 T1 small lasers for example. as a lot item for auction. The problem being that suddenly somebody has a 1000 small T1 lasers to flood the market with at more than they paid and very likely highly competative prices.
Expensive Tech 2 ships, T3s, and Faction, Complex, and Officer stuff would make more sense. Storyline to I suppose, or other rare items that don't fall into any of those categories.
That said, it is both a good idea and a bad idea for the various reasons mentioned and more I can't be bothered to-or couldn't-think of I'm sure.
Also: o/\o <-- It's funny, I always thought that was an owl.
+ voted most interesting thread (so far) 2012. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
|
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
315
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 04:19:00 -
[161] - Quote
Sundarbolt wrote:In terms of getting the message out to new and existing players, why not use the ingame billboards and the captain's quarters screen to run numbers/tickers of reclaimed assets/ISK and banned players etc
oh and great work guys
This please.
This would make it more worthwhile for me to actually get out of my goo-filled pod and browse the CQ. The stats that I like to see posted on the CQ TV are...
- How many bots perma banned
- How many bots temp. banned
- Number of bots in each region (may need to open a window for this)
- ISK removed/reversed
- ISK in assets removed
- Number of RMT accounts perma banned
Also, it would be nice to have the stats in the CQ TV updated once a week if possible. Twice a month of you're too busy.
Quote:
The lesson that begins to appear from this is one that starts to put a real dampner on the "common" "wisdom" that it's not profitable for us to crack down on this activity. While 1268 accounts had to be permanently banned they were not what we would qualify as "EVE Players". Buyers tend to be people who make a poor decision and try to save a couple of bucks by doing something illegal, but still want to be engaged in the game. We negative this activity and give them an opportunity to continue enjoying the game and they stay loyal customers, which helps to make New Eden a more enjoyable place for everyone. Instead of people sending cash to some shady dude running a sweat shop out in *insert country name here*, they purchase a PLEX, which can be used by you to fund your game time and the money goes into developing a better spaceship game instead of buying the equivalent of a digital drug dealer a cool new diamond-covered blingy case for his beeper.
So much for the obviously-wrong conspiracy theory that CCP doesn't ban botters/RMTers as it's against their interests. Suck on that, tinfoil hat wearers. Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |
Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 04:23:00 -
[162] - Quote
I want to highlight the part of CCP Sreeg's comment that people seem to be missing: "a lot of this stuff just simply shouldnGÇÖt exist".
A police auction or similar concept might be nice, but ultimately these things have been bought into the EVE economy (one way or another) by activities that are outside the bounds of the game. Therefore if they simply cease to exist the footprint left on the game by "illegal" activity isn't as big, and problem solved.
If (almost) everything that exists in EVE is created in one way or another by active human players, then the EVE universe will be much more vibrant and interesting. Seized RMT/botting proceeds are counter-productive to this. |
Bruce Blacky
Blacky Invention Research Development YinYang
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 05:43:00 -
[163] - Quote
Hello,
GOOD STUFF...thumbs up
keep doing this and don stop.
CCP waited too long to get this started, but i am very happy and pleased that you finally got on this problem and I believe you will succeed in removing this problem from EVE completly.
sincerly a very happy customer Bruce Blacky |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
213
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 07:30:00 -
[164] - Quote
Impressive - thumbs up to Sreegs and Team Security!
A few ideas for taking it to the next step:
- Make a list of all known Internet RMT sites (you've probably done this already).
- Contact the various Eve fansites, as well as general MMO and gaming sites, and ask them (politely, ofc) to delete and refuse to accept ads, articles, or forum postings promoting these sites. They won't all agree, but a surprising number of them will do so.
- Contact the ISPs of the RMT sites and ask them to remove the sites. Again, they won't all agree, but some will, if asked politely. Sure, the RMTers will just move the site, but it does send them a clear notice that you are out to harass and shut them down.
- Do some interviews with the various Eve news sites and popular fansites, to get the word out more widely and clearly to the player base (some of whom obvously can't read the EULA).
- Ask the CCP video team to make you a very cool 3D CG video, showing what happens to folks who break the rules. Most of the Eve player base watches the 3D CG videos, even if they don't read the EULA, the dev blogs or the forums.
- Contact the leaders of the largest corps and alliances in the game, and ask them to spread the word to their members. As we've seen in the past, a large corp/alliance can be severely impacted by the poorly considered actions of just a few members - and it doesn't hurt to remind them.
And, keep up the most excellent work! |
Seloena
Mighty Orca Inc
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 09:41:00 -
[165] - Quote
Good job guys. Kick all the f*ckin bots! I hate when hulks come out and suck same ore i do.
I think you should do one more thing. Exactly the same thing you did for England. Prices for game time (not plex, but game time) should be compared to the country we live in (CCP than you for that move! For me game time in GBP will be much cheaper :] ) What exactly I mean? I did some researches and calculated some numbers:
- average pay for job here is 1800 (some units) - price of new hot game title on the store shelf is 80-120 (some units) - cost of 1 Gé¼ is 4.1 - EVE cost per month when taking 3 months is 12.95 Gé¼
4.1 * 12.95 = 53 per moth.
I earn much much more than the average, so I can afford that, but for most people here its much too much when you compare to what they earn. Most box titles after few months are available as "gold editions" or something like that in price like 40-50 (some units). So monthly EvE fee is like buying a new game every month. LOL
After some more research i found plex on black market. WOW & SHOCK!!!. This is not "few bucks"! Average price for 1 plex in different sellers was 32 (some units). This is 60% off the oryginal price - its almost like 5 months for free.
This why i think you should add more currencies based on country average earnings (like you did for GBP).
Cool job, keep it going! |
Ken Kyoukan
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 11:15:00 -
[166] - Quote
Jita spam should be easy to clear up,
Just add an internal timer, messages outside this timer are free, inside the timer would give a cspa isk cost warning and charge as well as starting a second timer, this second timer is used to double the isk cost/message.
Continual spam...spam...spam... Would (per spammer) become: Spam... Priced Spam, Double Priced Spam, Expensive Spam, Extortionate Spam, Minimal Spam.
Always worth a try, and CSPA charges are in game supposedly for spam prevention, so lets use it in spam heavy systems like Jita.
P.S. CCP Sreegs, Just so you are aware, I'm still waiting for a reply from my earlier post, evemail and email. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1264
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 11:37:00 -
[167] - Quote
Ken Kyoukan wrote:Jita spam should be easy to clear up,
Just add an internal timer, messages outside this timer are free, inside the timer would give a cspa isk cost warning and charge as well as starting a second timer, this second timer is used to double the isk cost/message.
Continual spam...spam...spam... Would (per spammer) become: Spam... Priced Spam, Double Priced Spam, Expensive Spam, Extortionate Spam, Minimal Spam.
Always worth a try, and CSPA charges are in game supposedly for spam prevention, so lets use it in spam heavy systems like Jita.
P.S. CCP Sreegs, Just so you are aware, I'm still waiting for a reply from my earlier post, evemail and email.
Neither of your evemails requested a response. You gave me information. We may or may not use it. I appreciate it and read it but there was nothing in them that seemed to require a response of any kind. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
71
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 18:33:00 -
[168] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ken Kyoukan wrote:Jita spam should be easy to clear up,
Just add an internal timer, messages outside this timer are free, inside the timer would give a cspa isk cost warning and charge as well as starting a second timer, this second timer is used to double the isk cost/message.
Continual spam...spam...spam... Would (per spammer) become: Spam... Priced Spam, Double Priced Spam, Expensive Spam, Extortionate Spam, Minimal Spam.
Always worth a try, and CSPA charges are in game supposedly for spam prevention, so lets use it in spam heavy systems like Jita.
P.S. CCP Sreegs, Just so you are aware, I'm still waiting for a reply from my earlier post, evemail and email. Neither of your evemails requested a response. You gave me information. We may or may not use it. I appreciate it and read it but there was nothing in them that seemed to require a response of any kind.
I make this mistake sometimes when I recieve a compliment in an email or a FYI something.
A one line "thanks for the support" or "I'lll read it, thanks" brings a good finality while still showing that you appreciated their time they took to share something. Of course we don't have time to enter conversations with hundreds of people each day but a one line "thanks" probably is possible. Making it really really short.. like two or three words does convey you're too busy to do justice to any further conversation while a the same time not ignoring them. |
elitatwo
Congregatio
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:00:00 -
[169] - Quote
A virtual high five from me on your work here! Well done and keep going! |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:58:00 -
[170] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:I make this mistake sometimes when I recieve a compliment in an email or a FYI something.
A one line "thanks for the support" or "I'lll read it, thanks" brings a good finality while still showing that you appreciated their time they took to share something. Of course we don't have time to enter conversations with hundreds of people each day but a one line "thanks" probably is possible. Making it really really short.. like two or three words does convey you're too busy to do justice to any further conversation while a the same time not ignoring them.
Thanks for your forum post, I'll read it later. |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
661
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:05:00 -
[171] - Quote
corestwo wrote:
Taking a good long while to properly investigate is fine and we'd be okay with that, if not for the whole lack of any contact at all. A month without so much as a "We're looking at it and will keep you updated."
The previous similar thread I was just saying the same concepts.
CCP Sreegs is really REALLY commendable in his job, it's really going to finally kick those RMTers in the ass.
BUT
The "customer care" department following the applied bans it's slow as hell.
He can tell "it's not my job don't tell me" all day long but this is the very only place where we can post something that will not be completely ignored by CCP employees.
The times are BIBLICAL, 2 months is right the average.
I have 2 petitions stuck in the same queue since 1.5 months now (just asking for clarifications about EULA and asking for CCP to investigate on a suspicious guy).
I NEVER got a single "we are working on it" message. Just nothing, full ignore.
I filed a simple petition on another account about a skill question and that too took 3 weeks to reply.
Can CCP hire some more people?
If CCP Sreegs creates 1000 bans a months CCP cannot keep the same GMs they hired when they banned 10 people a month, their queues EXPLODE.
Once again, CCP Sreegs is doing RIGHT GOOD and deserves all the applauses but please pass on your CCP colleagues the big, big discomfort the months long petition queues take just for the first reply.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
71
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:12:00 -
[172] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Diomedes Calypso wrote:I make this mistake sometimes when I recieve a compliment in an email or a FYI something.
A one line "thanks for the support" or "I'lll read it, thanks" brings a good finality while still showing that you appreciated their time they took to share something. Of course we don't have time to enter conversations with hundreds of people each day but a one line "thanks" probably is possible. Making it really really short.. like two or three words does convey you're too busy to do justice to any further conversation while a the same time not ignoring them. Thanks for your forum post, I'll read it later.
LMAO.. well, I'm happy someone read it at least |
Golden Gnu
EVE University Ivy League
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 21:58:00 -
[173] - Quote
*Hi Five* Team Security! Download is the meaning of life, upload is the meaning of intelligent life http://eve.nikr.net - home of jEveAssets |
Lemming Alpha1dash1
Lemmings Online
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 22:35:00 -
[174] - Quote
Do you start your day by punching plush toys and thinking they are RMT ppl ?
gratz team on the RMT kill reports |
Ken Kyoukan
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 23:04:00 -
[175] - Quote
Many thanks for the receipt acknowledgement CCP Sreegs.
Sorry that I have an AS Condition, if you were offended in any way sir. |
Benteen
Drone A.I. Servicing Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 05:23:00 -
[176] - Quote
Hi Five security guys... keep up the good work! |
Tazuki Falorn
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 08:21:00 -
[177] - Quote
Hi. I'm the person mentioned by Kazanir et al. earlier in the thread. Obviously I'm now unbanned but I can't say the process was in any way a good experience. Tickets were ignored or closed without comment, e-mails to security@ went unanswered - after 2 weeks of trying and failing to get anyone to reply I gave up. It's very difficult to get unbanned when your protestations of innocence disappear into a black hole.
Luckily, my CEO and another director spent a bunch of their time pestering people at CCP via various sources, eventually getting a reply to the effect of "If he is innocent, please explain Dodgy Character's actions". Dodgy Character (not his name) being a freighter/industry guy I legitimately bought and transferred to one of my accounts. Apparently it had something to do with RMT before I bought it and the character transfer wasn't taken into account when bans were handed out :(
I'm all for getting rid of bots and RMTers but there really needs to be a system in place to deal with ban appeals in a reasonable timeframe, especially with the way skill training works. My lost game time got reimbursed but I'm still out a month of training on multiple accounts. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 12:12:00 -
[178] - Quote
Tazuki Falorn wrote:Apparently it had something to do with RMT before I bought it and the character transfer wasn't taken into account when bans were handed out :(
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1269
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 12:52:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ken Kyoukan wrote:Many thanks for the receipt acknowledgement CCP Sreegs.
Sorry that I have an AS Condition, if you were offended in any way sir.
No no not offended in any way, we just get a lot of email so if the email doesn't require a response I generally don't send one. :) "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1269
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 12:57:00 -
[180] - Quote
Tazuki Falorn wrote:Hi. I'm the person mentioned by Kazanir et al. earlier in the thread. Obviously I'm now unbanned but I can't say the process was in any way a good experience. Tickets were ignored or closed without comment, e-mails to security@ went unanswered - after 2 weeks of trying and failing to get anyone to reply I gave up. It's very difficult to get unbanned when your protestations of innocence disappear into a black hole.
Luckily, my CEO and another director spent a bunch of their time pestering people at CCP via various sources, eventually getting a reply to the effect of "If he is innocent, please explain Dodgy Character's actions". Dodgy Character (not his name) being a freighter/industry guy I legitimately bought and transferred to one of my accounts. Apparently it had something to do with RMT before I bought it and the character transfer wasn't taken into account when bans were handed out :(
I'm all for getting rid of bots and RMTers but there really needs to be a system in place to deal with ban appeals in a reasonable timeframe, especially with the way skill training works. My lost game time got reimbursed but I'm still out a month of training on multiple accounts.
We're working on improving this but I will say that everyone appeals which floods the system. We didn't have anything in place to check for character transfers and that'll be rectified. CS doesn't have insight into our investigations and we don't have the people to be handling petitions so we're working on creative ways to get around that.
In this particular case the evidence was there of wrongdoing but we didn't note the transfer of character. We made a mistake in that regard and for that we apologize. We also compensated you for more than your time lost.
Ultimately it's easy to say "answer petitions faster" and as a customer that's really where your concerns end. Unfortunately for us the solution just isn't that simple. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1269
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 13:03:00 -
[181] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:corestwo wrote:
Taking a good long while to properly investigate is fine and we'd be okay with that, if not for the whole lack of any contact at all. A month without so much as a "We're looking at it and will keep you updated."
The previous similar thread I was just saying the same concepts. CCP Sreegs is really REALLY commendable in his job, it's really going to finally kick those RMTers in the ass. BUT The "customer care" department following the applied bans it's slow as hell. He can tell "it's not my job don't tell me" all day long but this is the very only place where we can post something that will not be completely ignored by CCP employees. The times are BIBLICAL, 2 months is right the average. I have 2 petitions stuck in the same queue since 1.5 months now (just asking for clarifications about EULA and asking for CCP to investigate on a suspicious guy). I NEVER got a single "we are working on it" message. Just nothing, full ignore. I filed a simple petition on another account about a skill question and that too took 3 weeks to reply. Can CCP hire some more people? If CCP Sreegs creates 1000 bans a months CCP cannot keep the same GMs they hired when they banned 10 people a month, their queues EXPLODE. Once again, CCP Sreegs is doing RIGHT GOOD and deserves all the applauses but please pass on your CCP colleagues the big, big discomfort the months long petition queues take just for the first reply.
Neither one of those petitions has anything to do with my team or this thread. I thank you for the kind words and understand your frustration but I have to point out that your feeling that this thread is the proper place to air those concerns because you don't feel anyone is listening anywhere else is misplaced. This isn't a CS thread and those are CS issues. You really need to voice your displeasure to them in the form of a petition.
I'm sympathetic to your plight but I also find it a bit offputting to have my thread sullied with complaints about another department. When the queues are long they know they're long and put a lot of effort into reducing them. That's really not your problem at all but there's also not much I'm going to be able to respond to. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
fantazmythe
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 14:14:00 -
[182] - Quote
absolutely epicsauce job your doing guys, *^5's team security*
just out of curiosity, what's the plan for you guys after you have effectively stamped out RTM. will team security be disbanded and you guys reassigned or will you stick around to make sure it doesn't flair up again?
just curious is all, your doing an excellent job and would be interested to see your awesomeness put to great use after the RMT problem is fixed.
P.S i realise that you still have a long way to go to stamp out RMT |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1273
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 15:01:00 -
[183] - Quote
fantazmythe wrote:absolutely epicsauce job your doing guys, *^5's team security*
just out of curiosity, what's the plan for you guys after you have effectively stamped out RTM. will team security be disbanded and you guys reassigned or will you stick around to make sure it doesn't flair up again?
just curious is all, your doing an excellent job and would be interested to see your awesomeness put to great use after the RMT problem is fixed.
P.S i realise that you still have a long way to go to stamp out RMT
RMT is just something we're focused on now as well as botting. We're also responsible for the overall security of the client/server EVE product, I'm presuming Dust, and CCP's corporate infrastructure. There's plenty to keep us busy. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
257
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 18:20:00 -
[184] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:CCP Punkturis wrote:Hi Five to my Team Security bros Only 800 likes less cool than our UI programming bros :(
Darius JOHNSON security officer of my heart. <3
We know what you are doing about RMT. But what does Team Security plan to do about RTM (Rub The Mittani)? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1278
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 00:50:00 -
[185] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:CCP Punkturis wrote:Hi Five to my Team Security bros Only 800 likes less cool than our UI programming bros :( Darius JOHNSON security officer of my heart. <3 We know what you are doing about RMT. But what does Team Security plan to do about RTM (Rub The Mittani)?
We're pretty sure he can rub himself just fine. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
zerokmatrix
Federation Mission Acedemy
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 02:01:00 -
[186] - Quote
Excellent news, keep up the good work
You definately need to get the message out to the new players as soon as they start.
As we all know getting ISK is hard when you are new and do not know how New Eden works.
To them, that battleship that costs over 100 Million ISK, which they think will solve all their in game problems seems so far out of reach.
That is the time they are tempted (well it was for me anyway and no I did not succumb to the dark side, but I did look into it until I found out it was illegal) |
Sarina Berghil
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
31
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 10:50:00 -
[187] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Chribba wrote:Very nice! This is good to see.
However I am still wondering if you have any actions planned for spammers and the likes that are, many that are most likely a funding for RMT as well I'm sure.
Spam is a problem! It keeps cluttering up channels and some are very easy and obvious, day old alts. I personally report bots every day but some still keep spamming weeks in. Will there be a team/plan to instantly ban spammers sometime too?
imo some are so obvious it doesn't need any investigation - just an instant hammer.
Keep up the great work, hope to see the next update you give with even more RMT/botters/spammers gone.
/c Spam is an annoying problem and I am not sure it should reside with us but I'll start some emails internally and see what kind of conversation I can stir up.
Spam is more than annoying. It's the retail level of shady internet practices, RMT being one of them. Add to that the fact that spamming rarely is viable without automation. You will probably find that some spammers are integral to the RMT enterprises.
Because of PLEX Eve is a bit of a special case, and the RMT'ers don't use spam in the same way as in other games. But I think they probably try to carry over their experiences in running spam bots in other ways. Using spam bots for jita scams would be an obvious supply line for RMT enterprises. |
TurAmarth ElRandir
Helix Pulse Rolling Thunder.
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 20:56:00 -
[188] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
"...goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk..."
"I'd considered at one point using them as a reward system but I can't get over the fact that a lot of this stuff just simply shouldn't exist and that can't be good for an economy."
"...goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk..." : TRUE
"...using them as a reward system..." : NO (not a reasonable corollary to RL)
"...this stuff just simply shouldn't exist..." : FALSE (it was illegally acquired, same as counterfeit money or any RL criminal activity, This however does not invalidate the ASSETS, just the method by which they were acquired.)
Where the ISK came from does not matter. If it was botted, it was still acquired via the std game mechanics for making ISK. That it was ILLEGALLY acquired is handled by the fact that it was therefore seized.
[Lore] ALL assets on banned accounts were seized by, and are held by, CONCORD. [therefore] CONCORD should auctions off the seized goods as an income source.
This IS an ISK SINK as the players will be paying CONCORD (IE the game) ISK for the assets.
This is how law enforcement handles assets seizures IRL. This is how CONCORD should handle asset seizures in New Eden.
I really do not understand how there can be any reasonable question on this. We need moar ISK sinks to offset the amount of ISK coming into the game via ISK faucets. ISK sinks are any and all payments of ISK made by players TO the game (IE TO NPC corps and CONCORD).
TurAmarth ElRandir HBHI VP & Salvage Operations Director Fly Safe and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/ |
Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 04:16:00 -
[189] - Quote
TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
"...goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk..."
"I'd considered at one point using them as a reward system but I can't get over the fact that a lot of this stuff just simply shouldn't exist and that can't be good for an economy."
"...goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk..." : TRUE "...using them as a reward system..." : NO (not a reasonable corollary to RL) "...this stuff just simply shouldn't exist..." : FALSE (it was illegally acquired, same as counterfeit money or any RL criminal activity, This however does not invalidate the ASSETS, just the method by which they were acquired.) Where the ISK came from does not matter. If it was botted, it was still acquired via the std game mechanics for making ISK. That it was ILLEGALLY acquired is handled by the fact that it was therefore seized. [Lore] ALL assets on banned accounts were seized by, and are held by, CONCORD. [therefore] CONCORD should auctions off the seized goods as an income source. This IS an ISK SINK as the players will be paying CONCORD (IE the game) ISK for the assets. This is how law enforcement handles assets seizures IRL. This is how CONCORD should handle asset seizures in New Eden. I really do not understand how there can be any reasonable question on this. We need moar ISK sinks to offset the amount of ISK coming into the game via ISK faucets. ISK sinks are any and all payments of ISK made by players TO the game (IE TO NPC corps and CONCORD).
Firstly, have a look at what I said about this earlier in the thread here.
To elaborate, as far as the game is concerned Sreegs' statement "this stuff just simply shouldn't exist" is actually quite true. If it weren't for a bot mining those minerals, they wouldn't have been instantiated into the game world. If it weren't for a bot getting those NPC bounties, they wouldn't have increased anybody's wallets.
Your comment "it was illegally acquired, same as counterfeit money or any RL criminal activity, This however does not invalidate the ASSETS, just the method by which they were acquired" misses the fact that items don't always exist in the game's economy to be moved around - some items (minerals, mods, ships, and ISK included) are simply created out of thin air through various in-game activities. CONCORD bounties don't exist in the game and come out of a CONCORD wallet, they are simply an amount added to a character's wallet when they kill NPCs.
Likewise, Faction BPCs/mods, Deadspace/Officer mods, and general loot simply get spawned into existence when certain events happen. If those events are being caused by bots, then all those things being spawned are being created by events that are outside the bounds of the game space, and therefore, as Sreegs has said, simply shouldn't exist. |
fantazmythe
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 04:39:00 -
[190] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:[quote=fantazmythe]
RMT is just something we're focused on now as well as botting. We're also responsible for the overall security of the client/server EVE product, I'm presuming Dust, and CCP's corporate infrastructure. There's plenty to keep us busy.
Ahh ok, thanks for the quick reply =) |
|
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
58
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 09:51:00 -
[191] - Quote
CCP Sreeg wrote:We're also exploring opportunities for how to get this messaging out to new players of the game. One of the things people mention fairly often is that they're concerned that new players can fall into this trap of "easy" isk by being targeted by these terrible isk sellers. Along with going after the supply-side of the problem we're doing a deep dive on what the best ways to reach out to new players is so that this never becomes a problem from the beginning. Part of this is word of mouth and dev blogs such as this, but we'll probably also see things like splash ads on login, news items, things in the launcher and some other stuff that's been thought of but is still being tweaked. Build something into the New Player Experience / tutorials?
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3566
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 10:34:00 -
[192] - Quote
Toawa wrote:Sorry, but I have an irresistible compulsion to be pedantic here.
RMT ISK sales are not "illegal." They do not meet any countries' legal definition of a crime (AFAIK). They are against the EULA, but breaking the EULA is not illegal (despite certain protestations by certain US federal courts and politicians whenever it happens suits their PR interests). The EULA has language specifically dealing with EULA violations, specifying cancellation of the account.
A more correct term would be "unauthorized."
I feel that I have to point this out precisely because of the aforementioned US federal courts and politicians (especially politicians!) who go out of their way to cast everything they don't happen to like as being a crime; the fact that you don't like something does not make it criminal.
(Of course, fraudulently breaking into an account may, depending upon the circumstances, meet the legal definition of a crime, but that's not what this devblog was about.)
One could make a pretty good case in most jurisdictions that RMT ISK/Item sellers are making unauthorised use of copyrighted/trademarked IP. That is, selling someone a Raven Navy Issue for $20 isn't a crime per se, but using the term and/or image for "Raven Navy Issue" on your website for commercial purposes without CCP's permission is. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3566
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 10:45:00 -
[193] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Tazuki Falorn wrote:Hi. I'm the person mentioned by Kazanir et al. earlier in the thread. Obviously I'm now unbanned but I can't say the process was in any way a good experience. Tickets were ignored or closed without comment, e-mails to security@ went unanswered - after 2 weeks of trying and failing to get anyone to reply I gave up. It's very difficult to get unbanned when your protestations of innocence disappear into a black hole.
Luckily, my CEO and another director spent a bunch of their time pestering people at CCP via various sources, eventually getting a reply to the effect of "If he is innocent, please explain Dodgy Character's actions". Dodgy Character (not his name) being a freighter/industry guy I legitimately bought and transferred to one of my accounts. Apparently it had something to do with RMT before I bought it and the character transfer wasn't taken into account when bans were handed out :(
I'm all for getting rid of bots and RMTers but there really needs to be a system in place to deal with ban appeals in a reasonable timeframe, especially with the way skill training works. My lost game time got reimbursed but I'm still out a month of training on multiple accounts. We're working on improving this but I will say that everyone appeals which floods the system. We didn't have anything in place to check for character transfers and that'll be rectified. CS doesn't have insight into our investigations and we don't have the people to be handling petitions so we're working on creative ways to get around that. In this particular case the evidence was there of wrongdoing but we didn't note the transfer of character. We made a mistake in that regard and for that we apologize. We also compensated you for more than your time lost. Ultimately it's easy to say "answer petitions faster" and as a customer that's really where your concerns end. Unfortunately for us the solution just isn't that simple.
Judging by some of the posts from botting forums reposted on nozygamer and elsewhere, flooding the petition queue is a deliberate spoiler tactic by the botters (and it wouldn't surprise me if by the RMTers as well). They're attempting to drive up the commercial cost of your campaign against them by compromising your customer service.
It might be worth improving communications with your customers here by explaining this counter-campaign and advising that petition responses are being delayed due to heavy workload. Just provide your GMs with a template response to this kind of petition so that people at least know that their petition has beenr eceived and read by someone. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 17:24:00 -
[194] - Quote
Quote:The lesson that begins to appear from this is one that starts to put a real dampner on the "common" "wisdom" that it's not profitable for us to crack down on this activity.
Who has said this?... Just curious because I would think that killing competition would indeed be profitable :/... Stop the 3rd party RMT and people have to buy from CCP. Just curious is all. Doubt I'll get a link to ppl who have said that tho.
In the past it would not have been profitable for ccp to deal with this because it would have resulted in simple account losses. Now ccp is balancing account loss (1278, not 10) with legit plex purchasing so it is logical that ccp would protect the revinue stream.
Where the question, or "wisdom"?, of profitability comes in is if they are or do start paying top dollar for google adwords on those keywords that sellers use. A bot/rmt account using a plex and then getting banned is more profitable than one that isnt created first. |
TurAmarth ElRandir
Helix Pulse Rolling Thunder.
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 06:12:00 -
[195] - Quote
Imigo Montoya wrote: To elaborate, as far as the game is concerned Sreegs' statement "this stuff just simply shouldn't exist" is actually quite true. If it weren't for a bot mining those minerals, they wouldn't have been instantiated into the game world. If it weren't for a bot getting those NPC bounties, they wouldn't have increased anybody's wallets.
I disagreeGǪ are you telling me a bot is not a GÇÿavatarGÇÖ on an GÇÿaccountGÇÖ initiated by a real person? Do we have avatars and accounts in the game that CCPGÇÖs servers did not initially accept as GÇÿlegalGÇÖ upon creation?? Is Skynet playing EVE???
The correct statement is; GÇ£If it weren't for a playerGÇÖs illegal use of a bot mining those minerals, they wouldn't have been instantiated into the game world. If it weren't for a playerGÇÖs illegal use of a bot getting those NPC bounties, they wouldn't have increased any playerGÇÖs wallets.GÇ¥
In both cases it is not the use of the games mechanics BY a bot to GÇÿcreateGÇÖ assets that is illegal, it is a REAL PERSONGÇÖS misuse of an avatar on an account via the use of a bot that is the illegal act. Actually, one can argue as the bots code is executed by a player then, by extension, the player DID initiate the software that created the normal server response to generate the assets. The player just did so willfully and knowingly in direct contravention of the EULA, Policies and Rules.
ALL assets such as ore, Faction BPCs/mods, Deadspace/Officer mods, NPC loot & salvage are simply created out of thin air in the server. Some, ore and salvage for example, are then used (modified and/or combined) by the players to create other assets, mods, ships, etc., but the BASIS for ALL assets ingame are GÇÿvirtual thingsGÇÖ created in the server. ISK is the same as ore in this regard, only it is a virtual monetary numerical change created in the playerGÇÖs wallet.
Now, what we can argue is should these, bot mined or ratted, items have been created? Of course not, but then again GÇ£illegal drugs just simply shouldn't exist", but due to the illegal acts of real people, it doesGǪ and again it is the illegal acts of people, not the tubs and scales and tools they use to make the illegal drug that is the key issue. Now we destroy the illegal drug as it is a harmful social poison with no redeeming value, however, as I argued before, RL law enforcement auctions off all the illegally used GÇÿtoolsGÇÖ they can such as cars, boats, planes, houses, etc., etc.
Imigo Montoya wrote: Likewise, Faction BPCs/mods, Deadspace/Officer mods, and general loot simply get spawned into existence when certain events happen. If those events are being caused by bots, then all those things being spawned are being created by events that are outside the bounds of the game space, and therefore, as Sreegs has said, simply shouldn't exist.
Please explain to me how; GǣGǪall those things being spawned are being created by events that are outside the bounds of the game spaceGǪGǥ
If what you meant by GÇÿboundsGÇÖ was, GÇ£GǪall those things being spawned are being created by events that are outside of the EULA, Policies and Rules of the gameGǪGÇ¥ then you will find me in complete agreement.
And the EULA, Policies and Rules have to do with how the players PLAY the game. IE The bot itself does nothing illegal, it is its USE by a player is the illegal act. The bot is just a tool. We do not punish the knife used to kill, we do not throw away the stolen diamonds... we punish the murdererGǪ then we sell the diamonds.
TurAmarth ElRandir HBHI VP & Salvage Operations Director Fly Safe and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/ |
Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 10:29:00 -
[196] - Quote
TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:are you telling me a bot is not a GÇÿavatarGÇÖ on an GÇÿaccountGÇÖ initiated by a real person? Do we have avatars and accounts in the game that CCPGÇÖs servers did not initially accept as GÇÿlegalGÇÖ upon creation?? Is Skynet playing EVE???
In short, no. If it weren't for the rest of your post actually addressing some issues and raising counter-points I would have written you off as a troll on the basis of that misrepresentation.
To clarify, when I say "the game" I don't mean the multimedia software that embodies the game, I mean the game. One aspect of the definition of the term "game" is that it is something governed by a set of rules. Almost all definitions include this or something similar like "structure" or "limiting context". The EULA is one document that defines some of that set of rules. The software implements some other rules of the game, but the rules of the game are not exclusively defined by code.
Likewise, by "bounds" I mean "rules". Actions that happen within the bounds of the game are happening within the rules of the game, same for actions outside those bounds.
Whether or not the server software accepts a bot's rule breaking commands is irrelevant, the action was initiated by something that breached the rules of the game.
As for the anology of real life goods siezed by law enforcement, it just doesn't quite hold. Real life isn't defined by rules in the same way as a game*, where things get created and destroyed with a simple change to a database entry. Items siezed from criminals existed anyway, they are just the ill-gotten acquisitions of criminal activity. Items spawned by a bot in EVE never would have existed if it weren't for those rule breaking actions, and could infact have a detrimental effect on the economy of the game by their mere continued existance (eg undue inflation, deflation of mineral prices).
* another aspect of most definitions of "game" include being artificial or separate from reality. |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
275
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 14:32:00 -
[197] - Quote
Was suggested I cross post this from MD (where in particular I was asking if there was some contract trick I was unaware of).
---
Ok so this may very well be RMT related. Which is why I reported this via petition and email a month ago (neither responded to, but that's beside the point, I wouldn't particularly expect nor warrant one).
If it is RMT then many of those below may have already been caught, there are certainly a few Doomheimer 666ers in the list. That the transactions continue into recent weeks would either hint at the scale of the task facing Sreegs' team or at the normal continuance of some other, perfectly legal, business practice I'm unaware of.
But if it is RMT, the scale is... significant.
Scam contracts. We've all seen them, many of us may have fallen for one. Few would fall for the exact same one, several times a week, over several months to the tune of tens of billions of isk. I stumbled across such an example in a public contract history, got suspicious and started following the spiders web, those who were routinely scammed, who were they scammed by, were the scammers also scamming others etc? These were all very obvious scams, almost always following the format of "you will pay 100m, you will get 1 noob ship / unit of trit / laser crystal, you will also pay 10 PLEX" - the sort that falling for once might be understandable, falling for several times a week points to something else.
Anyway, partial unravelling of said spider's web below. Names have been masked as an attempt to avoid falling foul of forum regulations but the date and timestamps are all correct as seen within public contract history. It's perhaps worth noting that almost all of these contracts were completed within minutes of being posted. ISK transfer amounts approximated based upon 500m plex for easy maths.
(a) gave: 5.1b to (b) on 04.17 @ 10:30 5.2b to (c) on 03.23 @ 07:53 500m to (d) on 03.14 @ 03:50 4.7b to (e) on 03.14 @ 02:55 1.1b to (f) on 02.20 @ 11:57 4.3b to (g) on 02.19 @ 07:45 5.2b to (h) on 01.31 @ 07:10 3.1b to (i) on 01.21 @ 02:00 1b to (j) on 01.11 @ 19:57 1b to (k) on 01.11 @ 19:17 3.3b to (l) on 12.28 @ 06:15 2b to (m) on 12.17 @ 14:17 2b to (n) on 12.17 @ 13:39 2b to (o) on 12.07 @ 09:22 1.5b to (p) on 12.07 @ 07:27 3.2b to (q) on 12.07 @ 07:23
(b) received: 5.1b from (a) on 04.17 @ 10:30 6.1b from (r) on 04.17 @ 01:19
(r) gave: 6.1b to (b) on 04.17 @ 01:19 1.5b to (s) on 04.16 @ 13:56
(c) received: 5.3b from (t) on 03.24 @ 00:28 5.2b from (a) on 03.23 @ 07:53 10.6b from (u) on @ 03.23 02:00
(t) gave: 5.3b to (c) on 03.24 @ 00:28 4.7b to (v) on 03.24 @ 00:28 2.6b to (w) on 03.23 @ 15:45 3.6b to (x) on 03.23 @ 13:24 1b to (y) on 03.23 @ 13:06
(e) received: 4.2b from (z) on 03.26 @ 05:01 4.7b from (a2) on 03.20 @ 03:15 4.7b from (b2) on 03.16 @ 16:03 4.7b from (a) on 03.14 @ 02:55 3.7b from (c2) on 03.02 @ 22:20 3.1b from (d2) on 02.26 @ 06:27 3.7b from (e2) on 02.24 @ 01:17 5.3b from (f2) on 02.11 @ 19:32 5.2b from (g2) on 02.08 @ 01:14 5.3b from (g2) on 02.07 @ 05:38 2.1b from (h2) on 02.02 @ 03:58 3.1b from (i2) on 01.31 @ 18:36 3.1b from (j2) on 01.31 @ 00:32 4.1b from (i2) on 01.30 @ 20:31 6.2b from (k2) on 01.27 @ 06:05 2.6b from (k2) on 01.26 @ 02:55 2.5b from (l2) on 01.16 @ 06:06
(z) gave: 4.2b to (e) on 03.26 @ 05:01 2.6b to (m2) on 03.26 @ 04:09 2.1b to (n2) on 02.26 @ 05:33 1b to (o2) on 02:26 @ 04:51 3.7b to (p2) on 02.26 @ 03:58
(g) received: 2.6b from (q2) on 03.22 @ 01:39 4.3b from (a) on 02.19 @ 07:45
(q2) gave: 6.2b to (r2) on 04.15 @ 02:25 5.1b to (s2) on 04.08 @ 22:28 1b to (t2) on 03.31 @ 03:24 2.6b to (g) on 03.22 @ 01:39 6.4b to (u2) on 03.03 @ 03:22 2b to (v2) on 01.17 @ 18:10 4.1b to (w2) on 01.17 @ 15:27 2b to (x2) on 12.30 @ 00:52
(u2) received: 7.1b from (y2) on 04.02 @ 05:33 7.1b from (y2) on 04.01 @ 09:08 7.4b from (z2) on 03.19 @ 06:23 6.4b from (q2) on 03.03 @ 03:22
(z2) gave: 7.4b to (u2) on 03.19 @ 06:23 6.3b to (a3) on 03.18 @ 18:31 7b to (b3) on 03.11 @ 03:19 5b to (c3) on 03.11 @ 02:44 1b to (d3) on 03.09 @ 18:00
So what's going on? If it is RMT I fear the scale is *vast* - this is merely the very partial unravelling of *one* web I happened by chance to stumble across using public in game tools yet it covers hundreds of billions of isk across dozens of characters.
Or is this merely some other (legal) business practice routinely used that I've overlooked?
---
(name of "(a)" supplied in petition of 25th March and of email tied to this account sent 3rd April - naturally holler if you need them again) |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 17:10:00 -
[198] - Quote
Tekota wrote:Was suggested I cross post this from MD (where in particular I was asking if there was some contract trick I was unaware of).
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Scam contracts. We've all seen them, many of us may have fallen for one. Few would fall for the exact same one, several times a week, over several months to the tune of tens of billions of isk. I stumbled across such an example in a public contract history, got suspicious and started following the spiders web, those who were routinely scammed, who were they scammed by, were the scammers also scamming others etc? These were all very obvious scams, almost always following the format of "you will pay 100m, you will get 1 noob ship / unit of trit / laser crystal, you will also pay 10 PLEX" - the sort that falling for once might be understandable, falling for several times a week points to something else.
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(name of "(a)" supplied in petition of 25th March and of email tied to this account sent 3rd April - naturally holler if you need them again)
I marvel that otherwise "sneaky" people don't even take rudimentary steps to make transactions a bit less suspicious by throwing in a battle cruiser with a crappy (1.5 million) kinda faction mod ... or something.
I alsow wonder why so many gold farmers and isk spammers can't take the few seconds time to grab a random word from a book (maybe followed by a few numbers if it is taken) rather than names like "asdfikll" .
Those things won't necessarily save them, but they'd be less likely to appear on the lists with the "lowest hanging fruit". |
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
4
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Posted - 2012.05.02 04:40:00 -
[199] - Quote
Thought everyone might like this one. Not only did this guy get caught for RMT, but he is/was the developer for a mission bot very popular with the RMT crowd.
Busted Bot Developer wrote:"Well it wouldn't be fair if I didnt post here :)
"I got banned yesterday on 9 of my 10 accounts. I didn't run 24/7, max 8ish hours per day. But I doubt they got me for botting, I just did a lot of RMT :) The fact that they got my mule-char (and another char that never ran a bot in its life) pretty much proves that."
His bot right now apparently is crippled. Here are some tears from a frustrated user.
Frustrated Bot User wrote:"Just saying - I support making ******* paid - but I have not had ******* in over 2 months. Its been broke that long as far as I'm concerned. (Habitually broken for longer)
"I WRITE MY OWN CODE. I'm not a complete ****** - I made my own AHK script (for anomalies) and have given up - im writing a code for missions too. Yet I look at the fixes I'm able to see, and none of them work. I've spent more time trying to fix ******* than probably would have been necessary to write my own AHK script.
Congratulations to Team Security for catching this guy.
The Nosy Gamer |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
40
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Posted - 2012.05.04 00:04:00 -
[200] - Quote
Can you separate out the petition system from the rest of the eve login network? Banned accounts cant log in (because they are banned) and thus cant log in to see their petitions. after submitting one with no response at all, they are forced to submit new petitions if they wish to get their characters/accounts back. and with CCP GM responses taking several weeks/months if at all to come, there is no way a banned person can make their case about why they shouldn't have been banned.
and with asking on the forums about bans is also against the EULA, CCP declines to give a space where such matters can be aired.
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KwaLevu
PH0ENIX COMPANY Ethereal Dawn
2
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Posted - 2012.05.06 04:28:00 -
[201] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Our Team Security is ever watchful, hunting down illegal activity in and around EVE Online. CCP Sreeg describes in his newest blog some of the ongoing operations and their impact on illegal activity like RMT. Since he knows that we all are curious people, hungry for numbers and statistics, he also included exactly this: numbers and statistics of seized isk and assets and more. Please read CCP Sreeg's newest devblog here.
NICE JOB GUYS HANG EM ALL ! |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2012.05.07 14:45:00 -
[202] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:[quote=corestwo]
Taking a good long while to properly investigate is fine and we'd be okay with that, if not for the whole lack of any contact at all. A month without so much as a "We're looking at it and will keep you updated."
The "customer care" department following the applied bans it's slow as hell.
The times are BIBLICAL, 2 months is right the average.
I have 2 petitions stuck in the same queue since 1.5 months now (just asking for clarifications about EULA and asking for CCP to investigate on a suspicious guy).
I NEVER got a single "we are working on it" message. Just nothing, full ignore.
I filed a simple petition on another account about a skill question and that too took 3 weeks to reply.
but please pass on your CCP colleagues the big, big discomfort the months long petition queues take just for the first reply.
Neither one of those petitions has anything to do with my team or this thread. I thank you for the kind words and understand your frustration but I have to point out that your feeling that this thread is the proper place to air those concerns because you don't feel anyone is listening anywhere else is misplaced. This isn't a CS thread and those are CS issues. You really need to voice your displeasure to them in the form of a petition. I'm sympathetic to your plight but I also find it a bit offputting to have my thread sullied with complaints about another department. When the queues are long they know they're long and put a lot of effort into reducing them. That's really not your problem at all but there's also not much I'm going to be able to respond to.
Its a little offputting that the best answer (and i understand that it is your only real answer) is "use the broken petition system that i know is a problem, have fun for two months trying to figure it out"
there really isnt any other forum that we can discuss this, in part because of EULA, but also because it takes so damn long to get anywhere with the petitions. The fact that the default position of CCP is not to send autoreplys or anything that would allow access to the same petition, which increased same issue petition spam. or even another auto at 14 days to show that its still somewhere. is pretty depressing,
While its not your department, CS doesnt have a thread, Team security, you do. |
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