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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Larsonist
Darkwave Technologies Doctrine.
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:18:00 -
[571]
Edited by: Larsonist on 15/03/2009 16:20:13
Quote: No need to adjust cap if dmg is boosted as they will be doing more dmg at their longer ranges so will need to mwd less to be effective.....try learning the basics of actual combat before you start trolling and ranting again.
No need to boost damage as that would cause you to start flying megas again along with everyone else...try learning the basics of nerf bats before you start attempting to swat a supposed troll.
edit: added supposed cause i dont think nightmareX is trolling. HA! Larsonist > i still enjoyed the pew pew though, all the pos sh!t ive been doing lately had me feeling like smeagle without his precious. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:20:00 -
[572]
Originally by: NightmareX back to emo trolling
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:21:00 -
[573]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 15/03/2009 16:21:21
Originally by: Larsonist
Quote: No need to adjust cap if dmg is boosted as they will be doing more dmg at their longer ranges so will need to mwd less to be effective.....try learning the basics of actual combat before you start trolling and ranting again.
No need to boost damage as that would cause you to start flying megas again along with everyone else.
Yea god forbid they actually become useful in BS gang combat.....
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:30:00 -
[574]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: NightmareX back to emo trolling
Back to post because you could not answer me.
Yeah good work.
Anyways. Will be back later. Gonna enjoy to see how this topic is going when i'm back.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:31:00 -
[575]
Originally by: NightmareX aaaaaand yet more emo trolling...
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:33:00 -
[576]
Edited by: NightmareX on 15/03/2009 16:34:31
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: NightmareX aaaaaand yet more emo trolling...
LALALALALALALALALALALA
Talk to the hand cause the face ain't listening. Like THIS.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:34:00 -
[577]
Originally by: NightmareX ...and on and on the empty and pointless emo trolling continues
....
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:37:00 -
[578]
Edited by: NightmareX on 15/03/2009 16:38:16
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: NightmareX ...and on to the points that whinabean can't answer
....
Again.
I'll wait for the next rabble rabble rabble epic trolling reply from whineabean. Keep going bud.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:39:00 -
[579]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 15/03/2009 16:39:43
Originally by: NightmareX Rude and abusive images and trolling
....reported....
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:41:00 -
[580]
Edited by: NightmareX on 15/03/2009 16:44:34
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Rude and abusive images and trolling....reported....
Ok fine then. Lets see if i have got any warnings when i'm back later today or tomorrow.
IF i have got some warnings, it's only because i have written something to a big epic troll that have been trolling and spamming so much him self that you have got a warning or a ban your self.
I'M REALLY EXITED ABOUT THAT, YAAAHHHHH.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:45:00 -
[581]
Originally by: NightmareX TROLL
Reported for off topic harassment/trolling.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:46:00 -
[582]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: NightmareX TROLL
Reported for off topic harassment/trolling.
Automaticly reported for every off topic / spam / troll reply you made. Even when i don't reply now.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:47:00 -
[583]
Originally by: NightmareX ....
Reported for off topic harassment/trolling.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.15 17:09:00 -
[584]
carry on, just bookmarking.
wtb ignore function on forums? ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.15 17:59:00 -
[585]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean I suppose you playing with EFT all the time means you do not know that piulots with good range are always going to be aligned...
I suppose that you then simply haven't figured out how one aligns your battleship. You see, you have to fly in a constant direction at 3/4 of your speed. Now, when you've got hundreds of KM of optimal range this isn't much of a big deal (but you'll still leave combat range). When you have 45km of optimal range it is a big deal. Especially when the battlefield starts off 20km spread out. If you align so that you can warp out before you're tackled and do so then there is no difference between the blaster ship and the laser ship, they both have warp times of zero. The instant they know the fight is lost they can warp out. If they don't know that the fight is lost, either one is as tackled as the other.
Originally by: Ad Valorem I was talking about a combination of factors,including tracking.
"A combination of factors not listed". What are they and why do they make a difference? Are they those things that I've shown to be non-factors?
Quote: but you have NO experience and NO evidence to support you point.
Are you aware of the concept of an argument to authority(and ad hom)? You're saying I am wrong because i have no experience. No, if i am wrong i am wrong for logical reasons. And actually i've provided evidence, though you might have had to been paying attention to the bevy of threads that have come up on this to know it. So that ain't your fault.
Quote: You moaned loudest about getting amarr buffed didn't you? I agreed Amarr needed a buff then
Not the battleships. And who were you if you agreed Amarr needed a buff then, there have been many character portrait imports since then.
Quote: BTW, words like 'rational examination to come to conclusions' might sound good, but you have NOT done that at all - you don't follow arguments or take anything in context.
show it, don't say it. You've said that i've done none of the sort, but you've not told me why the examinations fail. Why does the examination relating webs and the DPS that ships do while inside them fail? If it doesn't fail, then why are you not accounting for it?
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:11:00 -
[586]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 15/03/2009 18:16:54
Originally by: Goumindong
I suppose that you then simply haven't figured out how one aligns your battleship. You see, you have to fly in a constant direction at 3/4 of your speed. Now, when you've got hundreds of KM of optimal range this isn't much of a big deal (but you'll still leave combat range). When you have 45km of optimal range it is a big deal.
You do not need to be at 3/4 speed to be aligned you only need to be at 3/4 to warp, and you can alternate align points to help you stay in range if you need to.
Also there is the fact that ships with lower range will be heading towards you to get into range so its not likley your gonna get out of range while they do that....
See your all numbers no xp....
Originally by: Goumindong Are you aware of the concept of an argument to authority(and ad hom)? You're saying I am wrong because i have no experience. No, if i am wrong i am wrong for logical reasons. And actually i've provided evidence.
You never provide evidence you only speculate about unrealistic abilities you "think" certain ships have even though you have never flown them.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:18:00 -
[587]
Originally by: Happster At this senario i have to agree that the lasers are THE weapon to use. As range doesnt really matter much.
Actually its Drones, out of a Dominix. You get the most use for repping out of your high slots, and the most usable DPS to the most ranges with massive amounts of tank. You're least susceptable to ECM in your ability to do damage and have flexibility over the entire range of options.
Quote: In such a gang, the neuts on your pest will not matter. The ecm on your pest will not matter. All that will matter is dps and EHP and RR
You can put 2 RR in the pests highs, which leaves your drones free to do what you want with them while still getting the same repping efficiency as a 1 lar/5x heavy armor rep bot battleship. Doensn't necessarily make it better, but it doesn't make it worse either.
Quote: If your camping a gate, jumping in a gate, the distance to your target will not matter as the tackler will tackle, all you have to do is lock and get close to your rr buddies.
It absolutely matters. If the target is outside of your range you cannot kill him. If the target is inside of your range and close to the gate, the shorter range weapons are more efficient.
As well there are other issues of range that will allow your target easier escape. For instance if they're sitting on the gate they have an easier time escaping.
Of course, talking about "escape" is kinda academic, i am assuming here that were talking about two gangs that think they can fight each other. When one side overwhelms the other one side doesn't attempt to engage at all and will attempt to escape the easiest. In that situation there is no difference between the ships in their ability to escape.
Note: Not disagreeing with you specifically, or your conclusions, just clarifying and correcting somet things that need to be clarified and corrected.
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Perhaps but in gang combat omni tanks and dmg types are no as big of a issue as they are in 1 v 1.
No, in gang combat omni tanks and damage types are just as big an issue as they are in 1v1. Repping tanks are not as big a deal as they are in 1v1 (or similarly small combat situations where DPS does not exceed buffer/rep efficiency break points).
But damage types matter just as much as EHP/DPS. This is mainly because damage types and omni tanks are multipliers to DPS/EHP as they effect other ships. To claim that it has no effect or little effect is to claim that DPS and EHP are not important in gang combat.
Clearly that is foolish.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:22:00 -
[588]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean You do not need to be at 3/4 speed to be aligned you only need to be at 3/4 to warp, and you can alternate align points to help you stay in range if you need to.
1. Do you even know what "aligning" is? A: Its traveling in a single direction fast enough that you will warp as soon as you click the warp button.
2. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't, depends on the gate. It also ensures that your starting distance can be much too close for comfort(or you're not going to be able to engage half the battlefield)
Quote: Also there is the fact that ships with lower range will be heading towards you to get into range so its not likley your gonna get out of range while they do that....
They're only going to be doing that if they think they can win the fight... And if that is the case, then the battelships that are aligned aren't going to be warping and will be tackled. These aren't sniper battleships, you can't make a long determination while your HAC anti-support protects your fleet from warp ins.
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:37:00 -
[589]
Cleaned.
If you wish to indulge in a personal argument, do so using in game methods of communication. Carrying one on the forums does not help discussion and leads to pages of pointless posts.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email |
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:48:00 -
[590]
Edited by: maralt on 15/03/2009 18:56:14
Originally by: Goumindong
1. Do you even know what "aligning" is? A: Its traveling in a single direction fast enough that you will warp as soon as you click the warp button.
Only amateurs and the inexperienced align at warp speed when they do not need to, it does not surprise me in the lest that you did not know that.
Originally by: Goumindong 2. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't, depends on the gate. It also ensures that your starting distance can be much too close for comfort(or you're not going to be able to engage half the battlefield)
Its a option that ships that need to constantly be at close range NEVER have.
Originally by: Goumindong They're only going to be doing that if they think they can win the fight...
A poor avoidance of the point, nobody fights unless they think they are gonna win, unless they are getting ganked and then they have lost anyway.
Originally by: Goumindong
No, in gang combat omni tanks and damage types are just as big an issue as they are in 1v1.
Rubbish, a single BS may be able to tank another single BS with its buffer tank long enough to get into range and put up a good fight or even win due to higher relative resists to dmg types.
But in gang combat there can be 10-20+ BS all pounding on each primary making the dmg types and resists virtually irrelevant and tanking long enough to even get into range imposable.
Your gang combat experience is sadly lacking if you do not understand these basics, well either that or your just a amarr fanboi looking for weak excuses to stay way more powerful than the other races.......
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Djerin
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.03.15 21:12:00 -
[591]
Originally by: maralt But in gang combat there can be 10-20+ BS all pounding on each primary making the dmg types and resists virtually irrelevant and tanking long enough to even get into range imposable...
Actually the Goon is right. Resistances and damage types do matter in gang warfare. It's just not as obvious because both are statistically evened out between the gangs usually. But if you're clever you consider them when choosing your target. Arguably the difference isn't really huge and you'll only really now the targets resists when you get the killmail. Making the better decisions is much, much more important.
I'm pretty much Gallente specced and I don't feel particularly doomed right now. True, an Amarr BS can be superior if fitted correctly. But that requires both good skills and willingness to spend some iskies. And of course you gotta use it properly. That's pretty theoretical to me. Of course sometimes you think like 'damn, I could have been top damage dealer on that mail with a Geddon' or something. But seriously, if I started to train that fotm now I'd guarantee you they'd nerf it as soon as I rigged my first Abbadon, lol.
---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo |
maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2009.03.15 21:30:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Djerin Actually the Goon is right. Resistances and damage types do matter in gang warfare. It's just not as obvious because both are statistically evened out between the gangs usually. But if you're clever you consider them when choosing your target. Arguably the difference isn't really huge and you'll only really now the targets resists when you get the killmail. Making the better decisions is much, much more important.
Seriously dude if you consider resists when you choose your primary target in combat i suggest you have a good isk base before you pvp because you are gonna lose a lot of fights. The fact is that in most close range BS combat fights that ships on the top of the killmail are almost always amarr BS.
I have pvp'd a lot over the years and while i may consider ehp or maybe choose a T1 cruiser as primary instead of a T2 ship when i am doing hit and run combat cos it will die quicker i never have thought about deciding on a target in BS gang combat because of what its onmi resists may be.
Sorry i just think that considering the topic that what you are saying is a streach.
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Djerin
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.03.15 22:40:00 -
[593]
Dude seriously, I think you misunderstood my post. Thanks for your suggestions though even if I don't think I'll need them...
---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo |
Trader20
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Posted - 2009.03.15 23:06:00 -
[594]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 15/03/2009 14:40:57 Happster, yes it was just one example on what you can do with a Tempest.
There is tons of things you can do with a Tempest in a fleet fight.
With one ECCM and with 2x large remote armor reps for example, it can be very usefull in a RR BS gang. When the ECCM works, then it's really funny.
Heheh, now i'm waiting for sophisticatedlimabean to go omgomg reported for going off topic. But in fact, if you read the first reply to the OP, then we are free to give him some recommendation on other than just Blaster ships.
Yea but a domi can rr armor better (can fit more of a buffer tank),has a higher sensor strength (so eccm is more effective), and is cheaper.
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Trader20
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Posted - 2009.03.15 23:09:00 -
[595]
Edited by: Trader20 on 15/03/2009 23:10:55
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Djerin Actually the Goon is right. Resistances and damage types do matter in gang warfare. It's just not as obvious because both are statistically evened out between the gangs usually. But if you're clever you consider them when choosing your target. Arguably the difference isn't really huge and you'll only really now the targets resists when you get the killmail. Making the better decisions is much, much more important.
Seriously dude if you consider resists when you choose your primary target in combat i suggest you have a good isk base before you pvp because you are gonna lose a lot of fights. The fact is that in most close range BS combat fights that ships on the top of the killmail are almost always amarr BS.
I have pvp'd a lot over the years and while i may consider ehp or maybe choose a T1 cruiser as primary instead of a T2 ship when i am doing hit and run combat cos it will die quicker i never have thought about deciding on a target in BS gang combat because of what its onmi resists may be.
Sorry i just think that considering the topic that what you are saying is a streach.
But the fact is most omni armor tanks (pretty much every pvp ship) has it's highest resist vs em, and when a mega and a poc are shootin at a target, the mega will always have more damage dealt because of resist. Now if the mega is out of range and has to mwd in to deal damage well....thats a whole different story. Kinda makes you wish they would come out with a module that could let you hotdrop a bs right ontop of the targets. Mini cyno anyone?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.16 07:39:00 -
[596]
Originally by: maralt The fact is that in most close range BS combat fights that ships on the top of the killmail are almost always amarr BS.
This is mainly due to the way that killmails are formatted.
You see, there are three layers of a ships hit points, shields, armor, and structure. Each one has its own resistances and ends up with its own amount of effective hit points.
When you're looking to kill a ship, the amount of effective hit points you remove is what matters. But when the game calculates the damage that you do for a killmail, it only looks at the raw damage after resistances.
So what does that mean when were talking about "who is on top of the killmail?". Well, for armor tanked ships it means that whomever hits first and strips the untanked shield away is going to have a thousands of damage advantage over the rest of the ships, especially if they're doing EM damage.
What that means is that Amarr ships might not make the target die sooner than it would have otherwise even if they can get on top of the killmail easier due to the way that killmails total damage.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.16 07:50:00 -
[597]
Originally by: maralt
Only amateurs and the inexperienced align at warp speed when they do not need to, it does not surprise me in the least that you did not know that.
Any time you're not aligned at warp speed you're giving the enemy more time to attack you. You've got to sit somewhere and its got to be at some velocity(if its not, then you're not changing the time it takes you to align). So no matter what you're doing you're cutting down on your window.
Quote:
"much too close for comfort"Very Happy....you mean the ranges blaster ships ALWAYS need to be in????...you just owned yourself..Laughing
The middle ranges off a gate are the most dangerous. The farther you are the easier it is to warp off before being tackled, the closer you are the easier it is to deaggress and jump through(or simply not aggress and jump through).
When you're in the middle of those ranges, which you're going to be with the proposed laser ship(unless you fancy giving up your range advantage), then you're in a more dangerous position.
Quote:
A poor avoidance of the point, nobody fights unless they think they are gonna win, unless they are getting ganked and then they have lost anyway.
A poor avoidance of what? I explained how each ship will leave the battlefield. Bean claimed that laser ships have an easier time leaving the fight. I explained that they have the same ability to leave the fight when they don't want to fight, the only change is when they do want to fight. But in those situations, the ship off the gate is in the most danger, and the difference in the ability to tackle any of them is zero, making his claim false.
Quote:
But in gang combat there can be 10-20+ BS all pounding on each primary making the dmg types and resists virtually irrelevant and tanking long enough to even get into range imposable.
You heard it here first folks. Maralt saying, "The EHP of the opposing ships and the DPS that you do is irrelevant".
Frankly i don't think that is true. DPS is always relevant and anything that changes the amount of DPS you're doing is therefore relevant. EHP is always relevant and anything that changes the ability of your ship to eat damage before it dies is always relevant.
You might as well say that the falloff on blaster ships is irrelevant because when 20 neutron hyps are shooting at you even if you're 30km away you're still gonna die... Yea, we'll you're gonna die slower and that matters to the other ships you're playing with. Resists have the exact same effect.
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2009.03.16 10:52:00 -
[598]
Originally by: Goumindong
No, in gang combat omni tanks and damage types are just as big an issue as they are in 1v1.
Originally by: maralt Rubbish, a single BS may be able to tank another single BS with its buffer tank long enough to get into range and put up a good fight or even win due to higher relative resists to dmg types.
But in gang combat there can be 10-20+ BS all pounding on each primary making the dmg types and resists virtually irrelevant and tanking long enough to even get into range imposable.
Originally by: Goumindong You heard it here first folks. Maralt saying, "The EHP of the opposing ships and the DPS that you do is irrelevant".
Posting my full quote and cwhat it was in rply to as reference to show how manipulative goumindong is.
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.03.16 11:20:00 -
[599]
Damage types, resists, DPS, all these things matter in gangs. Damage types are relevant because they influence your actual DPS (i.e. not theoretical max DPS). Resists matter because they impact your actual damage taken. It's just that one ship's weapon damage types are less noticeable in a gang of say 10 people, because you're only one of many. It's much easier to tell the difference when it's 1v1 (SiSi warriors HO!), but that doesn't mean it somehow disappears in larger engagements. It might not matter as much, but it's still there.
Now, the question of how to weight information like damage types is up for discussion (I tend to think it's probably). As to whether that and the higher base DPS offsets the need to fly into range with a BB (rather than just loading scorch), well, you decide, haha.
What I'd like to see is less comparison to lasers and more to things like projectiles/torps. Honestly there isn't much at the moment that compares well against lasers (is anyone going to tell me that large autocannons and mega pulse lasers are perfectly balanced?), but how about Megathron compared to Tempest? I know "nerf lasers" is a touchy subject since they only fairly recently got buffed, haha, but I think Nightmare does have a point when saying it's easier to nerf 1 weapon than buff 3.
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.16 11:35:00 -
[600]
Originally by: heslookinatu
Originally by: Furb Killer If you just want the best it isnt even close, go amarr.
Not interested in the FOTM best i figured the post made that pretty clear.
oh, for christ sakes. well hell, blasters are as non-FOTM as you can get, stay with them!
just because amarr are FOTM doesnt mean there is anything bad with training them. ive got some SP in amarr guns, best SP i ever spent.
even if amarr get nerfed into obscurity next week, those lasers will still serve you well in missions, where the lack of ammo replacement requirements means you can easily salvage as you go!
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