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Incantare
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Posted - 2009.03.11 04:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Incantare on 11/03/2009 04:45:25 Smartbombs may no longer cause immunity to citadels but they are anything but fine. Their explosion velocity while in siege is atrociously low at about 3.25 m/s.
Using the missile damage formula I obtained the dps against various capital ships at different speeds, see for yourselves:
Phoenix damage to carriers
Phoenix damage to motherships
If the images aren't working for you, hit refresh and they should appear.
All stats are without implants nor rigs, in a max skilled char flying a phoenix with three BCU IIs and do not include drone DPS. Keep in mind no matter how many BCUs are fitted, the damage reduction percentage is the same. I used the Phoenix as an example but the problem is with citadels and affects the Nag as well, to a lesser extent.
Shockingly, the damage of citadels is so poor against moving targets a Phoenix deals more dps out of siege to a Chimera or Thanatos moving at max speed than in siege mode, and barely more against an Archon or Nidhoggur.
That's for theory - I am aware that in practice between other capitals blocking the way, the long time it takes them to accelerate and of course webs - carriers don't move at max speed for the most part, but this extreme example reveals the underlying problem: citadels' explosion velocity being far, far too low in siege mode. In fact if a carrier is flying at ~45 m/s or above, a rage siege Raven outdamages it. Even if the targeted capital is triple webbed, the phoenix still loses about a quarter of its damage due to low explosion velocity.
Even against supercaps Phoenix still loses a significant chunk of its damage, up to 64% against a moving Hel and up to 31% against a Leviathan - the ship with the single largest sig radius and tied for slowest.
I realize capital turrets have to deal with tracking but they are not penalized anywhere near the extent citadels are against other capitals short of shooting one at extreme close range. If you disagree back up your claim with some facts and not just "well turrets miss missiles always hit".
There was a time when citadels weren't just useful against caps, they could also be used effectively against battleships and some BCs but doing so either required a gimped setup or specific support and there was no flood of whine threads about how imba they were. Today this is impossible, but it's not important. What is important is that citadel torpedoes as an anti-capital weapon are massively underpowered. Aside from their (very) delayed damage and being destroyable they are crippled by their explosion velocity.
It feels as if the devs tossed out a random number for citadel explosion velocity and went with it without testing, consequences be damned. Citadels don't need a token boost, what they need is a significant increase in explosion velocity to allow missile dreads to fulfill their role in anti-capital warfare. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.03.11 11:46:00 -
[2]
The numbers are correct. I don't have the experience to properly interpret them in terms of capital fights, but they look horrific.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.11 14:49:00 -
[3]
I just get a 404 for the pictures. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Zenethalos
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.11 16:26:00 -
[4]
My numbers pretty muched matched yours. As a nag pilot this is pretty concerning. Supporting a boost.
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Incantare
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Posted - 2009.03.11 18:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Incantare on 11/03/2009 18:14:11 I've changed host for the pics, they should be working without issues now.
Also: supporting my own thread.
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Beep BeepCLick
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Posted - 2009.03.11 20:32:00 -
[6]
i so plan too run the test again so i can fraps it. just as more proof.
the test ran on Sisi was 2 part. First we use 5 phoenix and 1 thanatos
all phoenix enter siege and starting firing on the thanatos as it enter grid. at a range of around 30KM by the time the first volley reach the target it had reach the speed of 50m/s, for the next 10 mins of the cycle for siege the thanatos was easily able too deal with the dmg from the phoenix crew. it took them nearly 25% of there cycle too simple down the shields.
the next test used a mix of Revs(2) and Moros(3) dreads.
Now with them in siege and the same thanatos pilot upon entering grid he lost shields and some armor before gaining speed. even at the max of 90m/s the use of the armor rep was more then sparing. around 75% in too the cycle for siege the carrier was cycle both armor reps at times too deal with the dps output. Something is broken here
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Ryan Powers
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Posted - 2009.03.11 20:40:00 -
[7]
Good luck Incantare!
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Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.11 22:11:00 -
[8]
As someone who has flown both with and against Citadels, i can safely say that without a doubt this needs to be looked at. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:02:00 -
[9]
I've done this personally in a thanatos vs nagfail and pheonix. I cant attest to the skill levels of the pilots. However ya. Pretty much anything moving at any speed can speed tank citadels. It is a fact.
Should this be fixed? Certainly not.
At the same time I'm doing this. The nagfail's projectiles cant track at all.
The problem consists entirely in allowing the carrier to move. It should have 5 webs on the thing. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:04:00 -
[10]
What I do support though is Tech 2 ammo and guns for dreads.
Citadels get the uber dmg, short range type. Also the high precision who can hit the faster moving things.
also equivalent for the rest of the dreads. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
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Flaming Lemming
Puppeteer Press
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:19:00 -
[11]
Thumbs up in support
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Molock Saronen
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:10:00 -
[13]
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:42:00 -
[14]
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Sovereign533
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.12 02:18:00 -
[15]
*Your signature file has been removed for the inclusion of inappropriate language. -- Fallout 3 |
Beep BeepCLick
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Posted - 2009.03.12 03:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jason Edwards I've done this personally in a thanatos vs nagfail and pheonix. I cant attest to the skill levels of the pilots. However ya. Pretty much anything moving at any speed can speed tank citadels. It is a fact.
Should this be fixed? Certainly not.
At the same time I'm doing this. The nagfail's projectiles cant track at all.
The problem consists entirely in allowing the carrier to move. It should have 5 webs on the thing.
the Nagfail suffers from the cid effect too. on top of that i am talking about a cap battle. more then 1 vs 1 here. and not only just vs caps. a moros can fight sub-cap ships and kill something. it guns might miss a lot but if it lands a hit it Counts for something, on the other hand. you can fire cids all day. but if you only deal 80 dmg with all 3 then your not going too kill anything.
telling pheonix pilots too fire webs and such too make there cids worth while like amarr ships too use projectiles weapons as there cap issues with lasers.
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Incantare
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Posted - 2009.03.12 18:29:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Incantare on 12/03/2009 18:34:05
Originally by: Jason Edwards I've done this personally in a thanatos vs nagfail and pheonix. I cant attest to the skill levels of the pilots. However ya. Pretty much anything moving at any speed can speed tank citadels. It is a fact.
Should this be fixed? Certainly not.
At the same time I'm doing this. The nagfail's projectiles cant track at all.
This is simply not true outside of very close range as I said in my opening post. But rather than ask you to take my word for it again take a look at these graphs of various dreads firing at a full speed Thanatos.
With 50% of speed contributing to transveral.
With 100% of speed contributing to transversal.
All have one T2 damage mod except for the Phoenix which has three; closest range faction ammo was used in all cases. Drone damage and the Nag's citadel damage were not included in the graphs.
The curve corresponding to each weapon is as follows: Blasters - Pink ACs - Green Pulse - Teal Beams - Yellow Rails - Blue Citadels - Red
I'll be posting more data with long range ammo as well as my conclusions later tonight, but from a single glance it should be obvious that there is something very wrong with citadels as they are.
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Ignition SemperFi
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.03.12 20:31:00 -
[18]
Not to mention that while gun dreads have the ability to add tracking mods if needed, the phoenix has no such option. Supercaps are immune to Ewar and a painter wont work. But not even looking at the gun:missile comparision.... your data is about spot on with what I had been experiencing
I tried to bring this up earlier in the old boost Citadel thread.
Good luck, and supported. |
Beep BeepCLick
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Posted - 2009.03.12 21:06:00 -
[19]
The waiting game is something everyone gets too play.
but long as we keep this going maybe we can at least get a reply from CCP on the issue.
do they think it's right. or will they changed it like they changed the whole smartbomb issue.
how long will Stealth bombers be broken, how long till a phoenix is not LoL at in local channel trying too fight anything that can move.
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EdFromHumanResources
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.12 22:26:00 -
[20]
As a wyvern pilot I can say your numbers are innacurate. They may be accurate for a completely untanked ship but I was recently being attacked by four dreads(All Phoenix) and simply moving reduced their missile damage to 800 per salvo. Now my normal untriaged tank should not be able to speed tank 4 sieged dreads regardless of the race, but it was pretty hilarious.
Supporting this ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
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Alexej
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2009.03.13 00:39:00 -
[21]
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.03.13 01:45:00 -
[22]
Quote: the Nagfail suffers from the cid effect too. on top of that i am talking about a cap battle. more then 1 vs 1 here. and not only just vs caps. a moros can fight sub-cap ships and kill something. it guns might miss a lot but if it lands a hit it Counts for something, on the other hand. you can fire cids all day. but if you only deal 80 dmg with all 3 then your not going too kill anything.
cap vs cap. all the dreads are fine.
dread vs subcap? Honestly? You think pheonix needs to be boosted to allow killing subcaps? The hell? The only reason moros does so well is the drones. Even then... hotdrop the stupid moros who is killing subcaps and destroy it. Problem solved.
Quote: telling pheonix pilots too fire webs and such too make there cids worth while like amarr ships too use projectiles weapons as there cap issues with lasers.
I have that recent vid with the moros doing piracy. He had to use faction scrams(2) and web just to get those hits. Not to mention blasters. So yes... if the pheonix wants the same performance... he better fit a web or have someone with a web. Might I suggest a marauder?
Quote: This is simply not true outside of very close range as I said in my opening post. But rather than ask you to take my word for it again take a look at these graphs of various dreads firing at a full speed Thanatos.
Obviously. I was at about 11km or so. Meaning he could overload and get me. However by the time he burns out. I have only taken a fair bit of dmg, but i go back to tanking.
Quote: With 50% of speed contributing to transveral. With 100% of speed contributing to transversal.
Oh no doubt. If I wasnt in the sweet zone. I'dve been smoked lol. |
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.13 01:53:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote: the Nagfail suffers from the cid effect too. on top of that i am talking about a cap battle. more then 1 vs 1 here. and not only just vs caps. a moros can fight sub-cap ships and kill something. it guns might miss a lot but if it lands a hit it Counts for something, on the other hand. you can fire cids all day. but if you only deal 80 dmg with all 3 then your not going too kill anything.
cap vs cap. all the dreads are fine.
dread vs subcap? Honestly? You think pheonix needs to be boosted to allow killing subcaps? The hell? The only reason moros does so well is the drones. Even then... hotdrop the stupid moros who is killing subcaps and destroy it. Problem solved.
Quote: telling pheonix pilots too fire webs and such too make there cids worth while like amarr ships too use projectiles weapons as there cap issues with lasers.
I have that recent vid with the moros doing piracy. He had to use faction scrams(2) and web just to get those hits. Not to mention blasters. So yes... if the pheonix wants the same performance... he better fit a web or have someone with a web. Might I suggest a marauder?
Quote: This is simply not true outside of very close range as I said in my opening post. But rather than ask you to take my word for it again take a look at these graphs of various dreads firing at a full speed Thanatos.
Obviously. I was at about 11km or so. Meaning he could overload and get me. However by the time he burns out. I have only taken a fair bit of dmg, but i go back to tanking.
Quote: With 50% of speed contributing to transveral. With 100% of speed contributing to transversal.
Oh no doubt. If I wasnt in the sweet zone. I'dve been smoked lol.
So if cap vs cap all of them are fine why can I speed tank a group of phoenix in a wyvern? |
Beep BeepCLick
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Posted - 2009.03.14 19:55:00 -
[24]
I be happy if the phoenix could again battle with sub-cap ships and do some real dmg too them.
but i be happy if they just fix the issue where a moving target the size of a titan can speed tank a group of phoenix dreads. it's just silly.
i looking at number here. if i had a group of 10 phoenix dreads attacked by 15 battleships the phoenix crew would be Whole sale screwed.
while on the other hand any other dread in a group of 10 could at least pose a danger too the enemy.
same issue when you scale up too caps.
no group of ships of any type or race should be useless simply as your target is moving.
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Beep BeepCLick
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Posted - 2009.03.16 07:31:00 -
[25]
Bump!
and what way should we go. Buff the missile it self or add a bonus too the ships that use it?
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.16 16:30:00 -
[26]
Dreads arent supposed to be bigger, better BS. They are anti cap and tower ships. They dont need scaling for sub bs. You're supposed to deploy them with support ------------------------------------------------- Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
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Haid Arcan
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Posted - 2009.03.16 18:38:00 -
[27]
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TimGascoigne
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.03.16 19:02:00 -
[28]
I agree that the explosion velocity is crippling. The problem is that all the other capital weapons systems have a long-range lower DPS and short range higher DPS version but not for missiles. A citadel cruise missile launcher is needed and damage done needs to be based more on signature radius and less on speed. This will mean that as long as you're not using an MWD on your BS you should not get wtf ganked. Plus the Phoenix would be useful at shooting other capital ships.
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.16 20:56:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 16/03/2009 20:56:54 It should be noted that objects one can siege are supposed to be immobile. If your target is mobile, you shouldn't be in siege mode. I thought that was obvious.
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iudex
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.03.17 04:25:00 -
[30]
A titan speed-tanking citadel torps - that's just ridiculous.
Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.81 // Angel Cartel +7.60 // Minmatar Republic -8.68 // Gallente Federation -9.88 |
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