Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
vorneus
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 13:22:00 -
[1]
Edited by: vorneus on 13/03/2009 13:35:31 Ok, so I've done a fair amount of PvP. Recently I've been going into wormholes in a small gang of cruisers just for the interesting PvP you find in them - much more fun than than lowsec :)
Basically, I have a 1600mm plated close range blaster Vexor setup. My gang of cruisers came across a Domi and a Drake.. right I though, let's try and take them on. I was travelling at over 1.2k/sec with the MWD on, orbiting the drake at first. I got hit by a Scourge heavy missile for 794 damage. Volleys continued.. I continued to get hit for above 700 damage.
I have never EVER taken that much damage from a heavy missile before, not even in a BS with no resistance mods, let alone in a cruiser travelling over 1k/sec. I had 66% Kin resistance (from two EANM2s and a DCU2) on the setup.
Someone help me out here.. is this kind of damage achievable (well obviously it is) .. but is this a normal amount of damage? Or did this guy have a full rack of BC2's and highest possible skills?
Cheers,
-Ed
EDIT: I'm not a missile-boat pilot, so I can't test for real. But running things through EFT - with all skills a V, a T2 heavy launcher and faction scourge missiles (this is what I was getting hit with), I can't achieve over 450 damage in a single hit. The lows are filled with BCUIIs and a T2 missile damage rig (can't fit any more than this due to calibration). What gives? :(
|
Taelech
Caldari Caldari Design and Cryogenics
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 13:35:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Taelech on 13/03/2009 13:36:35 I seem to remember in the W-sapce dev blog that some properties of your ship (and enemies ships, presumably) will perform differently. Kinetic damage may be getting buffed and armor may be getting nerfed. Local effects in W-space, if they work like this, mean that PvP becomes quite unpredictable unless you have a well balance fleet. Yay teamwork!
But I may be wrong.
edited for spelling Taelech - Professor emeritus - Caldari Business Tribunal School of Law
|
vorneus
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 13:37:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Taelech I seem to remember in the W-sapce dev blog that some properties of your ship (and enemies ships, presumably) will preform differently. Kinetic damage may be getting buffed and armor may be getting nerfed. Local effects in W-space, if they work like this, mean that PvP becomes quite unpredictable unless you have a well balance fleet. Yay teamwork!
But I may be wrong.
Interesting.. next time I go to w-space I'll check on my resistances etc to see if they're different. Still though, to get up to nearly 800dmg in a single heavy missile? That's just ridiculous even if my resistance was 0%.
|
Taelech
Caldari Caldari Design and Cryogenics
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 13:39:00 -
[4]
Yeah, but if the alterations are static, imagine the local setups you could make. It is good to know the lay of the land...
Taelech - Professor emeritus - Caldari Business Tribunal School of Law
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 14:28:00 -
[5]
The Drake pilot had his launchers grouped. Divide those 700-odd numbers by seven.
|
Lord Myre
Caldari Heaven's Gate Scalar Federation
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 14:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gypsio III The Drake pilot had his launchers grouped. Divide those 700-odd numbers by seven.
Agreed there.
But yes as someone said the WH space changes your ships properties.....either for th good or for the bad. I have seen my ships speed increased to 400m/sec for a nighthawk with no prop mods and also seen my shields at 0 . There are many effects that you can have so maybe there could be one for missile damage but i think it was just the grouping of the 7 launchers. bout 100 dmg per missile seems right for a heavy launcher and your resists.
You know you have played way to much Eve when you are in a car accident and run away so you dont get podded. |
Jhango Fett
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 17:15:00 -
[7]
Well a MWD increases your sig too so not sure off-hand if that directly affects how much damage you take.
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 17:34:00 -
[8]
Chances are that it was not individual missiles, but grouped missiles that created those high numbers.
7 grouped HML should be about 7-800 after resists. Speed doesn't matter much when your signature is quintupled and he is using missiles designed/balanced to work against cruisers.
|
vorneus
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 19:16:00 -
[9]
Ahh! I never realised grouping had that effect. Wow now I feel a whole lot better :) I've only recently turned enemy damage notifications back on, as I have done quite a speight of mission running to regain some isk, and the NPC damage notifications are annoying as hell and get in the way of my own :D
Thanks for your insights guys. I've a long time reader of these forums but that was actually my first post :)
o/
-Ed
|
foobarx
|
Posted - 2009.03.14 01:48:00 -
[10]
If you look in the log it should identify the weapon as a missile group. Also, the sig radius thing is pretty important - you'll take a lot more damage when your MWD is running. An afterburner is a better choice for PvP, IMO, especially since a warp scrambler will disable your MWD.
|
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2009.03.14 06:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: foobarx If you look in the log it should identify the weapon as a missile group. Also, the sig radius thing is pretty important - you'll take a lot more damage when your MWD is running. An afterburner is a better choice for PvP, IMO, especially since a warp scrambler will disable your MWD.
Only if you want to become a comedy killmail. An AB may be great for killing missile ships (until they MWD away and warp off), but is suicide against gunboats. Since you can't guarantee you'll only be fighting missile ships, fit your MWD. -----------
|
foobarx
|
Posted - 2009.03.14 11:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: foobarx If you look in the log it should identify the weapon as a missile group. Also, the sig radius thing is pretty important - you'll take a lot more damage when your MWD is running. An afterburner is a better choice for PvP, IMO, especially since a warp scrambler will disable your MWD.
Only if you want to become a comedy killmail. An AB may be great for killing missile ships (until they MWD away and warp off), but is suicide against gunboats. Since you can't guarantee you'll only be fighting missile ships, fit your MWD.
Sure, until someone scrambles you and you don't have any speed boost at all. But you still have the cap penalty.
|
4THELULZ
|
Posted - 2009.03.15 22:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: foobarx
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: foobarx If you look in the log it should identify the weapon as a missile group. Also, the sig radius thing is pretty important - you'll take a lot more damage when your MWD is running. An afterburner is a better choice for PvP, IMO, especially since a warp scrambler will disable your MWD.
Only if you want to become a comedy killmail. An AB may be great for killing missile ships (until they MWD away and warp off), but is suicide against gunboats. Since you can't guarantee you'll only be fighting missile ships, fit your MWD.
Sure, until someone scrambles you and you don't have any speed boost at all. But you still have the cap penalty.
Lol at the idea of a MWD/scram cruiser like that, especially the 1600 type setups in the OP. You'll go so ludicrously slow chances are you won't land that scram in the first place.
|
oodin
Beyond Divinity Inc
|
Posted - 2009.03.16 06:43:00 -
[14]
you was in a blaster boat with a 1600mm orbiting a drake with your mwd on?
|
Aaronm100
|
Posted - 2009.03.16 07:32:00 -
[15]
Yeh i think either it was missile launcher grouping or this more i'm more certain of is the fact you had an MWD ON! this massively increases your sig radius and will make you take more damage / be easier to track.
|
Xavier Sunder
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 02:29:00 -
[16]
From my understanding, it is:
If missile speed is vastly < target speed, it might not even hit you. But this is pretty damn rare, especially if you're just orbitting.
Then it's explosion radius : target signal radius. The bigger the explosion in comparison to signal, the less damage you will take. However, I don't believe you will ever take MORE damage than 100%. Otherwise rockets would be knocking battleships out of the sky.
Then it's explosion velocity : target speed. The slower the explosion, the less damage you'll take if you're moving fast. Again, I don't think this can go over 100%.
I specifically came here today looking for the formula. Before this latest expansion they had a whole flash page that you could input all these variables and it would tell you exactly what dmg you would do--but they removed it. I wonder if the values have changed. But basically, using a WMD around missiles when you're a small ship is a horrible idea.
|
Lucia Wilber
Cupcake Brigade
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 03:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Xavier Sunder Basically, using a WMD around missiles when you're a small ship is a horrible idea.
That depends on if the mitigation from your speed outweighs the damage magnifier from your sig radius.
For example, an interceptor, even against a missile user, is better off with a MWD than an AF, because the mitigation granted by the increase in speed more than offsets the increased damage from a larger signature radius.
|
LAZEL
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 05:56:00 -
[18]
Negative. An intercepter has already the lowest sig and highest speed you can pretty much naturally reach. An AB makes them take almost nothing from sizeable missiles. Turning on the WMD takes off a huge chunk of that because half the equation, their sig, just blew up to monstrous size.
Just like the opposite, I believe there is diminishing returns for speed and signature. So if you're going 234983249823498234 m/s or going 3000 it's not a big difference--or at least not nearly as much as a simple multiplicative effect. Otherwise even a WMD cruiser would be hard to hurt. But trust me, stick to afterburners on an interceptor.
|
McDaddy Pimp
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 11:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: LAZEL Negative. An intercepter has already the lowest sig and highest speed you can pretty much naturally reach. An AB makes them take almost nothing from sizeable missiles. Turning on the WMD takes off a huge chunk of that because half the equation, their sig, just blew up to monstrous size.
Just like the opposite, I believe there is diminishing returns for speed and signature. So if you're going 234983249823498234 m/s or going 3000 it's not a big difference--or at least not nearly as much as a simple multiplicative effect. Otherwise even a WMD cruiser would be hard to hurt. But trust me, stick to afterburners on an interceptor.
wat!
an Ab on a ceptor prolly gonna be usefull only on very rare occasion, interceptors should 90% of the time fit MWDs, with a sig radius bonus of a ceptor (its now MWD sig panalty bonus, not the ship natural bonus), u will have around 80m^2 sig radius on a ceptor, thats pretty damn small imo..
|
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 12:54:00 -
[20]
Ignoring the AB vs MWD worth argument which crops up at any given opportunity I will guess that the W-Space system had some kinda flaky effect on either your ship or his missiles. Or both.
|
|
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 13:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: LAZEL Negative. An intercepter has already the lowest sig and highest speed you can pretty much naturally reach. An AB makes them take almost nothing from sizeable missiles. Turning on the WMD takes off a huge chunk of that because half the equation, their sig, just blew up to monstrous size.
You are severely wrong for two reasons:
1) The other half of the equation, their speed, also blew up to monstrous size. The missile damage reduction formula effectively ends up using the speed/sig ratio when looking at fast targets (only time this wouldn't apply as-is, is if your base sig is notable below the missile's explosion radius). Thus while most ships get a 500% increase in signature radius, they also get a 600% or more increase in speed, meaning that they will take less damage. 2) Interceptors all get a bonus that drastically reduces the sign bloom from MWDs. So in fact they'll only typically get an increase of 25% or 40% of the base amount - hardly a massive increase, especially considering the massive increase in speed that they still get.
Quote: Just like the opposite, I believe there is diminishing returns for speed and signature. So if you're going 234983249823498234 m/s or going 3000 it's not a big difference--or at least not nearly as much as a simple multiplicative effect.
No, it's not a simple multiplicative effect - it's similar to falloff. But you're not going to be taking a significant reduction in speed at 3km/s (especially on non-interceptor ships) since you'll need a MWD to get you that fast, and the increase in speed will offset the velocity at which damage reduction starts to occur.
Quote: Otherwise even a WMD cruiser would be hard to hurt.
Again, it's speed/sig related - so a MWD cruiser will have a sig radius of around 600-700m, hence the missiles with an explosion velocity around 120m can hit it quite solidly at those speeds. This was in fact one of the major drivers of the speed changes; previously it was true, at the 3-4km/s speeds that HACs were doing, you could not hit them for any real damage with missiles, and they didn't need to worry about the effects of their sig at all (vs. missiles) as the two effects were calculated completely separately. Nowadays, sig increase also affects can hthe rate at which speed mitigates damage - as CCP intended, such that an afterburner is a superior module for speed tanking.
Quote: But trust me, stick to afterburners on an interceptor.
I don't see why I should trust a stranger, especially when his advice isn't very good. There's very little point using an afterburner on an interceptor because of their bonuses to MWDs (remember, they no longer get a flat sig reduction, so an interceptor with AB has no substantially smaller sig than a frigate with AB, while the MWDing ceptor is much smaller than any other MWDing frigate). The MWD will be superior to reducing damage from missiles, and that from turrets, and more importantly is much better at moving around. The only time an AB would be superior is if you can't use your MWD because you're being warp scrambled; which also means you've entered web range (generally a bad idea in ceptors).
AB interceptors can be outpaced by MWD plated cruisers, which means they die as the cruiser can reduce their transversal to zero. They're also missing the entire point of being a fast ship - they won't be able to burn over to a ship landing 50-100km away and point it before it can warp out. I suppose you could make them work as a pseudo-AF for close-in solo work, but that's not really the role of the interceptor, nor would they be better at this than an AF (barrign perhaps the Taranis).
Just - no...
|
Vampasha
Space Piwates
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 16:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: vorneus Edited by: vorneus on 13/03/2009 13:35:31 Ok, so I've done a fair amount of PvP. Recently I've been going into wormholes in a small gang of cruisers just for the interesting PvP you find in them - much more fun than than lowsec :)
Basically, I have a 1600mm plated close range blaster Vexor setup. My gang of cruisers came across a Domi and a Drake.. right I though, let's try and take them on. I was travelling at over 1.2k/sec with the MWD on, orbiting the drake at first. I got hit by a Scourge heavy missile for 794 damage. Volleys continued.. I continued to get hit for above 700 damage.
I have never EVER taken that much damage from a heavy missile before, not even in a BS with no resistance mods, let alone in a cruiser travelling over 1k/sec. I had 66% Kin resistance (from two EANM2s and a DCU2) on the setup.
Someone help me out here.. is this kind of damage achievable (well obviously it is) .. but is this a normal amount of damage? Or did this guy have a full rack of BC2's and highest possible skills?
Cheers,
-Ed
EDIT: I'm not a missile-boat pilot, so I can't test for real. But running things through EFT - with all skills a V, a T2 heavy launcher and faction scourge missiles (this is what I was getting hit with), I can't achieve over 450 damage in a single hit. The lows are filled with BCUIIs and a T2 missile damage rig (can't fit any more than this due to calibration). What gives? :(
He has grouped his weapons. You are getting hit by a group. With skills a heavy will do about 350 each times 7 for a group before resists. -------------- I am Zsa Zsa of Borg. Prepare to be assimilated dahling |
Vampasha
Space Piwates
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 16:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: foobarx If you look in the log it should identify the weapon as a missile group. Also, the sig radius thing is pretty important - you'll take a lot more damage when your MWD is running. An afterburner is a better choice for PvP, IMO, especially since a warp scrambler will disable your MWD.
You sure about that? You take a reduction of damage due to speed but not sure if signature has any effect once higher than missile sig. -------------- I am Zsa Zsa of Borg. Prepare to be assimilated dahling |
Chssmius
Capital Support House of Mercury
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:36:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Chssmius on 17/03/2009 18:40:29
Originally by: Vampasha
Originally by: foobarx If you look in the log it should identify the weapon as a missile group. Also, the sig radius thing is pretty important - you'll take a lot more damage when your MWD is running. An afterburner is a better choice for PvP, IMO, especially since a warp scrambler will disable your MWD.
You sure about that? You take a reduction of damage due to speed but not sure if signature has any effect once higher than missile sig.
:sigh:
Stafen's Formula.
Google + 15 seconds + 3 clicks.
-----------
Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )
The exponent (log(drf) / log(5.5)) is always between 0.5 and 1 and is about 0.68 for T1 and faction HML's. Mathematically, the exponent being less than 1 slightly increases the damage done.
There are 3 regions for missile damage due to the nested Minimum functions. 100% damage, a region where only signature/exp. radius ratio are important, and the region where signature/exp. radius and velocity/exp. velocity are important. Of these three regions, the first two are typically rare in combat unless a target is heavily tackled(2 or more webs and a scram) and painted.
So most of the time a target's extra large signature runs counter to the advantages brought on by speed. There is a region where the speed/exp. velocity ratio are completely unimportant. In this region only the target signature/exp. radius are important until the ratio gets above 1. Then you are doing full damage as long as nothing changes.
EDIT: Gave a name for the link rather than just a URL and corrected a typo.
Take The EvE Personality Test today! |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vampasha
Originally by: foobarx If you look in the log it should identify the weapon as a missile group. Also, the sig radius thing is pretty important - you'll take a lot more damage when your MWD is running. An afterburner is a better choice for PvP, IMO, especially since a warp scrambler will disable your MWD.
You sure about that? You take a reduction of damage due to speed but not sure if signature has any effect once higher than missile sig.
It's a bit misleading the way that foobarx phrased it, and probably wrong in most circumstances. There's two different ways that missile damage can be reduced - sig-related and speed-related. You only ever get a damage reduction from having low sig; as you correctly state, once you match the missile's explosion radius, you get a 0% reduction due to sig. It doesn't matter if your signature radius is 500m or 500 kilometres, as in both cases the missile loses no damage due to you being too small (specifically you don't take extra damage from being big).
However, signature now also plays a part in damage reduction due to speed. The explosion velocity statistic of the missile is the speed at which a target of the missile's explosion radius' size starts to get reduced damage. Larger targets have to go faster to get reduced damage (I believe this is a 1:1 ratio i.e. a target of double that size has to go twice as fast, but I'm not sure). So here, being bigger can lead to you taking more damage - in practical terms, if you're already above the missile's explosion radius but going quite fast, someone target painting you will lead to you taking increased damage. However, in relation to "does activating a MWD lead to taking more damage", the signature increase from the MWD is always equal to or lower than the speed increase, and so in terms of the ratio you're still getting a net gain in this case.
The only time where activating a MWD would cause you to take more damage is where you were below the missile's explosion radius to start with (so you were getting damage reduction from your sig, which you've now lost) but your base speed is below the missile's explosion velocity, so that even with the MWD on you're not going fast enough to get any damage reduction from velocity. This could well happen for undersized ships that are (multiple-)webbed, but in the majority of cases it's not going to hold and the sig gain is offset by the speed gain meaning that you're not taking extra damage from missiles.
|
Xavier Sunder
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 21:30:00 -
[26]
FYI we did some informal testing yesterday. A frigate using AB, Nothing, WMD. The nothing obviously took the most dmg as it was moving the slowest. The difference between AB and WMD dmg to target was around 1%. I can't remember which was higher, sorry. But really didn't matter much at least for a frigate. But this was also with some of the advanced missile skills like Target Navigation Prediction and Guided Missile Precision.
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |