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Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
241
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Posted - 2012.04.29 16:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was wondering if anyone knew why we are locked down to a starting orbit position of a max 160 KM ? It appears if you are at warp range you can't orbit it. Why is that ?
I am also wondering if anyone knows why we can't orbit a planet, moon, sun, etc ?
It would be nice to be able to orbit anything. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1505
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Posted - 2012.04.29 17:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
I have no idea what you are talking about, regarding a "starting orbit position" ...
We can't orbit planets or moons because they are ... huge.
It's perfectly easy to orbit them manually in a fast ship, though. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
241
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Posted - 2012.04.29 17:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
IF you warp to a star gate at say 200 km you will find you can't orbit the gate, as you are in in warp distance being 200 km from the gate.
I am wondering why that mechanic is in there ?
I realize you can do anything manually but I am wondering why CCP put the mechanics in place ?
Just one of those little things that would be nice but you can't do it and I presume there is a reason why.
Or maybe at one time there was a reason and it is no longer applicable.
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Lola Humpsalot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2012.04.29 18:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think you answered your own question, you can't orbit over warp range because of warp range... |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
719
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Posted - 2012.04.29 18:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
It probably is there for technical reasons. Maybe... |
Skorpynekomimi
Omega Vector
180
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Posted - 2012.04.29 18:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maybe you just need to be able to head towards a specific point calculated from the object's position?
I don't doubt they've used something to avoid computing perfect circles. |
Kale Eledar
Mining and Industrial Services The Irukandji
41
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Posted - 2012.04.29 19:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Exactly. My guess is Eve's orbit range may not have been designed at all, per-s+¬ , but is merely an arbitrary limit CCP has imposed that is reflective of the mechanics, distances, speeds, and scales Eve uses. It probably naturally arose as upper bounds were set on ship gun and missile ranges. There are several illustrative examples we can use to highlight this point via thought experiments:
Suppose maximum ship speed was in the hundreds of km/sec range. Maximum orbit range would necessarily have to be larger to achieve the desired effect orbiting strategically gives the player.
Suppose guns were designed with extreme sniping styles in play (say 1000km) but with current average ship speeds in mind. Orbiting mechanics could be implemented at those ranges, but the advantages incurred by such maneouvres are greatly dimished due to the affects of parallax.
In addition, orbit mechanics between two moving objects in 3-dimensional space involves complicated vector calculus (Frenet-Serret forumlas come to mind) making simplifying orbit mechanics as much as possible ideal in a game where mass, acceleration, resistances, drones, and other objects must also be calculated by the server simultaneously. Setting an upper bound keeps things from being needlessly complicated (and silly). This is not to say that CCP doesn't use simplifying models to reduce workload on programmers (indeed, this is the hallmark of a good designer - see ship trail development) but Eve is probably compuationally intense as MMOs go (using SI units of mass and physical equations as well as all movement directions). Why bother including the ability to orbit planets? It behooves CCP to omit mechanics only few would enjoy using that have dubious strategic value not already served by current mechanics (safe spots, etc).
Source: no life, grad school (haha) The Irukandji is recruiting PVP pilots! APPLY NAO. You won't regret it. See our info at : -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70811&find=unread |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3329
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Posted - 2012.04.29 19:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
I haven't tried lately, but you used to be able to righ-click the orbit button on the overview and set up to 1000km orbit
/c
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Trinity Six
Hedion University Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2012.04.29 19:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
My guess is that anything over warp range has the possibility of being off-grid, and if u go off grid while orbiting, u lose the orbit anchor.
I dunno, I'm just guessing. |
Sirinda
Lead Farmers Academy Kill It With Fire
82
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Posted - 2012.04.29 19:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Orbiting a planet would be unrealistic, obviously. |
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Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
242
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Posted - 2012.04.29 21:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alot of guesses but nobody appears to remember the rationel behind the mechanic.
So if we leave out moons and planets for a minute.
Would would be the impact of being able to warp say to 300 KM off the gate and being able to orbit at that distance.
And 200 km is well within gun range of some ships.
What impact would that have.
Just trying to find a reason.
CCP you could help and give us a answer, PLEASE. |
Kale Eledar
Mining and Industrial Services The Irukandji
42
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Posted - 2012.04.29 21:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Alot of guesses but nobody appears to remember the rationel behind the mechanic.
So if we leave out moons and planets for a minute.
Would would be the impact of being able to warp say to 300 KM off the gate and being able to orbit at that distance.
And 200 km is well within gun range of some ships.
What impact would that have.
Just trying to find a reason.
CCP you could help and give us a answer, PLEASE.
Why do youwantto be able to do it? The Irukandji is recruiting PVP pilots! APPLY NAO. You won't regret it. See our info at : -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70811&find=unread |
Vangelios
26
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Posted - 2012.04.29 21:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kale Eledar wrote:
Orbiting mechanics could be implemented at those ranges, but the advantages incurred by such maneouvres are greatly dimished due to the affects of parallax. ... Source: no life, grad school (haha)
I'm sorry, I understand you try to smart-post, but you need to recheck definition of "parallax".
...-áEach small candle Lights a corner of the dark... |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
242
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Posted - 2012.04.29 21:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kale Eledar wrote:[
"just because I want to" won't work - every gameplay mechanic requires programming work. You have to consider CCP not thinking it's worth the ramifications of changing auto-abilities. it could have unforseen effects that they do not want to deal with if they don't have to.
Occam's razor!
I am afraid that answer doesn't cut it. I have lost count how many times CCP has openly admitted a mechanic they put into the game was used for something totally different then what it was intended for.
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Spy 21
Lonetrek Exploration and Salvage
58
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Posted - 2012.04.29 22:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I haven't tried lately, but you used to be able to righ-click the orbit button on the overview and set up to 1000km orbit
/c
Just tested this and it's still correct... the limit is 1000km not 160 km.
Dunno where OP is getting his info.
S
EDIT ... and the orbit button goes grey at 150km, not 160km. "The next time airport security tells you to put your hands over your head and hold that vulnerable position for seven seconds, ask yourself: Is this the posture of a free man?" |
EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.04.29 22:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
The mechanic is somewhat baffling. If you are 90KM from an object you can start orbiting it at 200KM but if you are 200KM from it you cannot start orbiting it. |
Raiz Nhell
DEEP CORPS
114
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Posted - 2012.04.29 22:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think the OP is saying you can't start an orbit from more than 160km from the object.
So you can orbit at 1000km provided you start the orbit at less then 160km.
I can't say that I have ever been in a position where I want to start and orbit from more than 160km, better to manual pilot to hold the distance.
I'm so carebear my Pod bleeds rainbow...
Beers + nullsec + dodgy fit = Loss mail |
Kale Eledar
Mining and Industrial Services The Irukandji
43
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Posted - 2012.04.29 22:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'l try to keep future posts less ranty and clearer .
Vangelios wrote:Kale Eledar wrote:
Orbiting mechanics could be implemented at those ranges, but the advantages incurred by such maneouvres are greatly dimished due to the affects of parallax. ... Source: no life, grad school (haha)
I'm sorry, I understand you try to smart-post, but you need to recheck definition of "parallax".
Everyone should try to smart-post!-áThank you for ignoring literally every other point I made, though. (also, inb4 tl;dr) However, I see how you could misintepret that as me thinking parallax is some sort of physical process or something (and using 'affect' accidentally probably didn't help). I merely meant that the primary reason people orbit -á- to dictate range and exploit gun tracking, amongst others - becomes less important at extreme ranges. Your apparent motion becomes so small from the other ship's perspective that orbiting doesn't give you a notable advantage if you want to make it harder for them to track you. That is why railgun snipers at extreme ranges don't see their dps drop in a notable amount if they move while firing - their guns have no trouble tracking something that seems like it's barely moving. I wouldn't have brought up parallax if we were talking about orbiting a pos tower for ***** and giggles, but I suppose I can use motion and tracking if you prefer that or think I mean it in an astronomical sense.
A ship orbiting you at 1km/sec -áand at 1000km distance: An orbit that size has perimeter of 3141.59km, so it would take your enemy almost an hour to orbit you once. From your viewpoint, it takes them almost ten seconds to move 1/360th of a full orbit.-á Aka - they appear to be barely moving. That's all I was highlighting. Orbiting becomes tactically far less useful provided it's for tactical reasons.. So parallax was kind of relevant, but I hope that clears it up.
Simetraz wrote:Kale Eledar wrote:[
"just because I want to" won't work - every gameplay mechanic requires programming work. You have to consider CCP not thinking it's worth the ramifications of changing auto-abilities. it could have unforseen effects that they do not want to deal with if they don't have to.
Occam's razor! I am afraid that answer doesn't cut it. I have lost count how many times CCP has openly admitted a mechanic they put into the game was used for something totally different then what it was intended for.
I gave you my main theory before which offered several ideas. I did qualify my post with "my guess is"; just offering my input. Plus, orbiting is kind of a physics thing that already exists...not something CCP invented. Including it in a space game makes sense, within reason, no? The specific point at which you can't orbit may have had an original reason that became obsoleted, too - or they picked an arbitrary point. -áUtimately, CCP is the only thing that can answer your question with finality. I am sorry the previous one isn't good enough for you, but you haven't answered my question, either, and it's not a difficult one to answer, I'd like to think! :)
EdwardNardella brings up an interesting point, though. That is odd, certainly.
The Irukandji is recruiting PVP pilots! APPLY NAO. You won't regret it. See our info at : -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70811&find=unread |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1109
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Posted - 2012.04.29 22:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:IF you warp to a star gate at say 200 km you will find you can't orbit the gate, as you are in in warp distance being 200 km from the gate.
I am wondering why that mechanic is in there ?
I realize you can do anything manually but I am wondering why CCP put the mechanics in place ?
Just one of those little things that would be nice but you can't do it and I presume there is a reason why.
Or maybe at one time there was a reason and it is no longer applicable.
Just as an FYI, orbitting something at 150+ km is absolutely pointless. You could be moving at 10km/s and your transversal would still be a joke. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.04.29 23:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Spy 21 wrote:Chribba wrote:I haven't tried lately, but you used to be able to righ-click the orbit button on the overview and set up to 1000km orbit
/c Just tested this and it's still correct... the limit is 1000km not 160 km. Dunno where OP is getting his info. S EDIT ... and the orbit button goes grey at 150km, not 160km. OP isn't talking about orbiting distance, but the distance you are from the object at the time you wish to issue the orbit command (160 km is presumably a typo):
Simetraz wrote:I was wondering if anyone knew why we are locked down to a starting orbit position of a max 160 KM ? It appears if you are at warp range you can't orbit it.
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Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
243
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Posted - 2012.04.29 23:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I haven't tried lately, but you used to be able to righ-click the orbit button on the overview and set up to 1000km orbit
/c
Your right Chibba you can technically orbit something at 1,000 KM
BUT
You have to be ~ 150km or less away from the object for the orbit button to work.
Which makes no sense as you basically end up back tracking to get to your default orbital range.
Makes no sense, the whole point of the post.
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non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
772
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Posted - 2012.04.30 00:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Just trying to figure out why anyone would care about this. It'd be easier to take seriously if it didn't seem like such a trivial thing.
What are you trying to do? Orbit gate/station/bubble at long range? Are people using sniper ships that reach 200km again? |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
243
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Posted - 2012.04.30 01:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
non judgement wrote:Just trying to figure out why anyone would care about this. It'd be easier to take seriously if it didn't seem like such a trivial thing.
What are you trying to do? Orbit gate/station/bubble at long range? Are people using sniper ships that reach 200km again?
Yes all the above at one time or another and several other reasons
Just a little thing that I have run into over the years, and again today. Every mechanic I can think of right now except this one I can say yes this is because of. This one I am drawing a blank.
No big deal obviously nobody remembers, and it may have been like this sense day one. Oh well.
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EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.05.02 12:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
I have orbited at very long ranges in stealth bombers and Covert-Ops. Not super useful but its nice to be able to do. |
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