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Thercon Jair
Minmatar InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.03.20 09:58:00 -
[61]
Now you've heard it all. And I'm sure you are now as undecided as before, with all those controverse answers
But, simply put: you already have the armor tanking skills, so the niddy would be the carrier you can get into without too much training. And you never know when CCP rebalances. Tomorrow, the niddy might be the king of carriers Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar! |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.20 15:28:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/03/2009 15:30:22
Originally by: Crackzilla
On TQ and not just armageddon day? I don't mean as support but as a carrier/dread? I flew a nano archon during armageddon day but that doesn't mean it directly translates to TQ.
What about large combat fight with tons of caps? What about hot drops? What about the-server-just-reset-log-on-now-and-slug-it-out-without-gang? What about you're the sole carrier and a small gang wants the logistics help to take out a pos? What about with 1min, 5min, 10min, and warpin-oh-gee-i'm-hung-up-lets-talk-on-coad-to-see-who-is-still-alive lag.
Somethings everyone will agree on, ie drakes passive tank well. No one else has to fly one to agree to that. I'll say that opinions from non cap pilots can be useful. I do disagree that having stepped into a cap and used one for a few hours in a controlled environment gives an accurate picture.
Hell no I haven't flown them all on TQ, and I wouldn't claim that I have really extensive experience *IN* caps. But I do have fairly extensive experience in cap fleet *battles* (and every one of those engagement types you've listed too). Armageddon day simply showed me that there wasn't anything unexpected around the capital corner. It really helped me see what the FCs meant when they said certain things and usually why they said it - both from previous and in future engagements.
In the end though, I vacillate between wanting to help the corp out and training for cap ships (Minmatar, Caldari, Gallente factions) and thinking I'd rather just train an entirely new faction instead.
(BTW You flew a nano cap in armageddon day, and I got together everyone I knew and put together fleet battles... )
-Liang
Ed: I do want to point out that a really significant amount of what I 'know' about caps is because I asked the FC/cap pilots about it. Geddon day simply helps me tie it all together (and something of, why yes... I *HAVE* flown them all... for what it's worth). I wouldn't have brought it up except that I always confuse the Niddy/Nagl hulls and Naomi is making a big deal about it. :-? -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.20 16:19:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I got together everyone I knew and put together fleet battles...
Well, you didn't invite me. *pouts*
Still, sisi is a controlled environment. No option to enable an adjustable lag. Nothing to start a random desync. Far more control about who shows up in what. Fittings that could be setup purely for a cap only battle. Sisi isn't the same as TQ.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.20 16:27:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Crackzilla Well, you didn't invite me. *pouts*
Still, sisi is a controlled environment. No option to enable an adjustable lag. Nothing to start a random desync. Far more control about who shows up in what. Fittings that could be setup purely for a cap only battle. Sisi isn't the same as TQ.
Never said it was... just that it helped me tie up what I'd seen on TQ with interface and reason. And next time I'll invite you. :P
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.20 17:01:00 -
[65]
I have not flown the nid or hel, however, with extensive experience in nyxes, wyverns, chimeras and thanatoses I believe my opinion on the topic of carriers will count for something.
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.20 17:44:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Crackzilla Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/03/2009 16:25:28 Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/03/2009 16:24:04
Originally by: Sokratesz That is a plain lie. Half the titans shield buffer, phoenixes and chimeras are very common. Shield rr has the advantage of instant effect, and when it comes down to it, any rr is good rr.
And the best tanking motherships are usually shield tankers. But this isn't the normal cap fleet. Phoenixes have their own set of issues.
Having to support chimeras mean that thannys and nids have to split their remote reps slots between armor and shield. Most fights I've ending up using shield & armor remote reps on mostly armor tankers and wishing I just had to support armor tanking. I'd rather have 3x or 4x remote armor reps on someone then just 2x.
Saying any remote rr is good rr is like saying that a sniper bs fleet should carry both remote armor and shield transfers to support the ravens. Better to standardize.
I will never understand the idiocy of armor tankers who fail to realize they benefit from both shield and armor repping. Shields stack ahead of armor damage, so even if your local tank is armor based, having shield repping applied to your ship is throwing damage resistance ahead of your tank.
Shield tanking battleships are the ones really screwed in the exchange, since they won't benefit from armor repair until after their primary tank is broken. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.20 19:05:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 20/03/2009 19:05:49
Originally by: Sokratesz however, with extensive experience in nyxes, wyverns, chimeras and thanatoses
Heres a cookie.
Originally by: Janu Hull they benefit from both shield and armor repping. Shields stack ahead of armor damage, so even if your local tank is armor based, having shield repping applied to your ship is throwing damage resistance ahead of your tank.
Shield tanking battleships are the ones really screwed in the exchange, since they won't benefit from armor repair until after their primary tank is broken.
You're converting cap into low resists shields. Enough amarr and em dmg out there that it might be 50% as effective to have the proper reps to start. I'd rather the other carrier have 2x the effect by having the proper remote rep. This is like bringing a shield transfer mod to an armor tanking rr gang.
Shield tanking *caps* are the ones screwed as half the possible reps can't be used because its for armor. So the archons and half the reps on the thannys and nids sit idle waiting for the tank on the nid/chim to break.
Then its armor without any resists mods. Get through that fast enough and the struct disappears because the carrier had cpr versus a dcu.
In the end I don't care which wins, shield or armor. I think the mixed fleets now are a larger issue than say going for max cap regen. Either way I think fleets will be forced to standardize. Pilots will be told to sell their cap and retrain for "x".
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.20 19:13:00 -
[68]
And pilots wont do that, for various reasons, so a considerate commander / leader / person with larger than normal..ego will have to take that into account.
Balanced shield/armour is a reality, failure to deal with it will lead to pretty explosions in the sky.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.20 19:29:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Sokratesz And pilots wont do that, for various reasons
This is like arguing that a mixed rr gang of armor tankers and shield tankers is acceptable.
Caps are the new battleship. Just that many cap pilots feel they've paid too much isk and too much training time to join the club.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.20 19:32:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Crackzilla
This is like arguing that a mixed rr gang of armor tankers and shield tankers is acceptable.
Caps are the new battleship. Just that many cap pilots feel they've paid too much isk and too much training time to join the club.
No matter which way things standardize (and I think they eventually will), we'll see one of the race's cap ships become largely useless. IMO it will be Caldari that falls because the Rev >> Phoenix.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.20 19:45:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Liang Nuren we'll see one of the race's cap ships
The wrench is going to be motherships and titans.
A titan isn't really handled as a fleet ship these days anyways (may as well be the tech3 version of a stealth bomber).
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.20 19:50:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/03/2009 19:51:06
Originally by: Crackzilla The wrench is going to be motherships and titans.
A titan isn't really handled as a fleet ship these days anyways (may as well be the tech3 version of a stealth bomber).
From what I've seen recently, Titans are far more useful as jump bridges and DDD cynojammer defense. But I haven't been allowed in the com channel with any titans so... I can't say for sure. Would be an expensive loss to have though.....
-Liang
Ed: But the moms that I've flown with have been used as essentially huge domis.... I don't know if that's dumb or not, but it was certainly effective. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.03.21 14:26:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sokratesz No because resists enhance remote reps received, so there is a balance between rr you can dish out and resist you fit to enhance those you get.
So then it seems like the Chimera would be an obvious win because: - Its harder to jam - It has more HP - It makes better use of RR* - Caldari BS is more useful than Minnie BS**
* I say this because when fitting SeBo+ECCM+3x Invuln, Smartie, 4x RR, and cap mods, that a homogeneous fleet of Chimeras would get ~1400 DPS tanked per rep and a homogeneous fleet of Niddies would get 1290 (includes appropriate bonuses from ships).
Simply put, resists > rep amount. It seems to be true from frigate all the way to caps.
** I love my Minnie, but I still hold this opinion.
The only reason I can see to choose a Niddy, then, is if you are repping POS's in triage or you're running with a BS gang and need faster locks more than you need to keep from being jammed.
-Liang
This is a flawed argument, because you're assuming the only thing a carrier reps in fleets are other carriers.
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Mystafyre
Caldari First Clan Corp FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.03.21 14:32:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Tefkros
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/03/2009 01:38:28
Originally by: Artemis Rose Unless I've seriously lost my mind, isn't the Nag the Vertical Dread and the Niddy is more like.
F R E A K I N G H O R I Z O N T A L
Hmmm.... I thought it was vertical. Whoops.
Quote: Personally, I'd rate the Thanny as the worst Carrier, due to the least useful bonus. Yay a DPS bonus on a giant logistics ship.
I don't disagree that the Thanny is lacking, I do disagree that it's the worst carrier. Either way, the other two carriers are obvious wins and these two are obvious fails.
-Liang
Ed: Quoting fail. I'm a double fail today! Awesome!
I find it disturbing that people who donŠt even know how a ship looks like, feel entitled to comment on its abilities based on what they "heard" or what their EFT sheets told them.
But you know that having EFT Warrior V gives you status in internetspaceshipsforum!
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.21 15:34:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Crackzilla Pilots will be told to sell their cap and retrain for "x".
Living up to your name, I see.
Mixed fleets are a reality. An FC that idiotic will quickly find himself facing issues within his own forces that will compromise his ability to deal with his opponents. No alliance I've ever been in, including some hardcore PvP alliances have ever told anyone to retrain their capitals, or even their battleships, to fit some ******ed concept of fleet uniformity. Amarrian ships aren't so common that one can sit happily behind armor's godly EM resists with so many more effective PvP ships in the Gallente and Minmatar flavors. Hell, Amarrian ships were considered a joke prior to the Empyrean expansion, and that never created any massive calls to retrain Amarr.
You can pretend that high EM resist means something, but the reality of large fleet fights is that local resist tanks won't save you much when hundreds of enemy ships decide you're going down. The odds are, not all of them will be throwing EM damage at you, and unless you're a complete moron fitting an omni tank in a PvP boat, the law of averages dictates that a good number of those ships will be burning right through your resist holes. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.21 17:06:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Janu Hull to fit some ******ed concept of fleet uniformity.
You've never been in an alliance where only certain types of ships were requested for fleets? Where only certain battleships and certain fittings were considered acceptable (ie sniper fit tempest, mega, etc)? Never watched someone bring a raven once too often to a fight to only be told to train for gallente/amarr?
Now a fleet is mostly a blob as it is tougher to coordinate who is flying what and with what fittings. So what about a rr bs gang?
There is this hubris many cap pilots have. Caps aren't special. Picking a cap based on which racial BS V you have is a poor decision.
Originally by: Janu Hull armor's godly EM resists
Hate to break this to you but EM is a fairly common armor hole as it isn't often specifically tanked (unlike exp, thm, etc). This leaves EM has having the lowest resist unless someone is using only eanm's or no resists at all.
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.21 17:26:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Janu Hull to fit some ******ed concept of fleet uniformity.
You've never been in an alliance where only certain types of ships were requested for fleets? Where only certain battleships and certain fittings were considered acceptable (ie sniper fit tempest, mega, etc)? Never watched someone bring a raven once too often to a fight to only be told to train for gallente/amarr?
Now a fleet is mostly a blob as it is tougher to coordinate who is flying what and with what fittings. So what about a rr bs gang?
There is this hubris many cap pilots have. Caps aren't special. Picking a cap based on which racial BS V you have is a poor decision.
RR BS gangs are a strawman. They are not even in the same ballgame as a capital supported PvP fleet. Its a completely different and unrelated method thinking and coordination that goes into a squad level mutually supportive operation compared to wings of capitals and support.
The only specific BS request I've ever seen in a fleet op was for Ravens. Damage selectivity for POS bashing ops (against POSes without resist hardeners).
As for coordinating mixed fleets, its not difficult for carrier pilots to watch the broadcast window for specific types of regeneration they offer. Personally, I respond to all requests, since as a Chimera pilot, I can effectively protect them all without loss of efficiency.
Quote:
Originally by: Janu Hull armor's godly EM resists
Hate to break this to you but EM is a fairly common armor hole as it isn't often specifically tanked (unlike exp, thm, etc). This leaves EM has having the lowest resist unless someone is using only eanm's or no resists at all.
Armor's inherent shield resists are superior to the default resists offered by just about any other form of tanking, aside from lunatics who hull tank behind Damage Control IIs. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.21 17:37:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Janu Hull RR BS gangs are a strawman. They are not even in the same ballgame as a capital supported PvP fleet. Its a completely different and unrelated method thinking
It is precisely the same technique. Only the scale changes.
Originally by: Janu Hull
as a Chimera pilot, I can effectively protect them all without loss of efficiency.
You do lose efficiency. You're repping shields at 0% resists when you could be repping armor at 60-75% resists. Less of your cap is converted into effective hp therefore efficiency is lost.
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A Pacifist
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Posted - 2009.04.05 10:34:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Crackzilla Edited by: Crackzilla on 21/03/2009 21:42:08
Originally by: Janu Hull RR BS gangs are a strawman. They are not even in the same ballgame as a capital supported PvP fleet. Its a completely different and unrelated method thinking
It is precisely the same technique. Only the scale changes.
If anything you've made it even more of a strawman, because in a capital engagement the nids would be primaried first out of the carriers.
After all, whats better: a dead armour repping nid, or a living shield repping chimera. NOT being primaried is a pretty damn good bonus to both remote repping, and tanking if you ask me.
At any rate, the correct answer is that there is no best carrier for all situations.
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Master tyler
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Posted - 2009.06.02 10:49:00 -
[80]
Why are nidh targeted in big fleets? because they have dones something wrong in the eyes of the enemys or really right and anyway they look the best
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Andrest Disch
Amarr Debitum Naturae
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Posted - 2009.06.02 11:14:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Master tyler Why are nidh targeted in big fleets? because they have dones something wrong in the eyes of the enemys or really right and anyway they look the best
Because they provide the best logistics while having the weakest tank. So it's not being awesome as much as being an "easy" target. |
eXtas
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.06.02 11:51:00 -
[82]
nid all the way! allso train triage :) personaly I would armortank chimera if I really had to fly one :P chimeras can rep poses but all armor tanking gang > mix shield/armor
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:27:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Crackzilla Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/03/2009 20:24:08 Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/03/2009 20:21:09
Originally by: Sokratesz A shield tank can have much much more cap than an armour tank.
But is it cap stable? So a bit of lag hits and most of that cap regen disappears into the cap booster.
Very. My Chimera can run dual Capital Shield Transporters and its own Capital Shield Booster while maintaining 72% capacitor or better. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:28:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Janu Hull
as a Chimera pilot, I can effectively protect them all without loss of efficiency.
You do lose efficiency. You're repping shields at 0% (assuming em) resists when you could be repping armor at 60-75% resists. Or put another way you're repping low resist shields when you could be repping higher resists on the armor. Less of your cap is converted into effective hp therefore efficiency is lost.
This problem, of course, magically disappears in the reverse situation.
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Ms DaisyMae
Burning Bush Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.02 21:14:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Eaiaden Ah another thread about how the minnie caps suck, i been a nidhog pilot for bout 7-8 months now, and im running the dual rep setup and it havent let me down yet, i been primaried more than once back in the war against IAC VS -A- - and im still flying the first carrier i ever got.
You can fit local tanks just fine, dont get all emo over sokratez, hes a fanatic RR freak of nature (meant in the good way) i can run dual RR with my nidhog, granted im not cap stable, but it takes a long time before i have to only run 1 and pulse the second, it havent happened to me yet i can say, usually the fights are over well before that happens.
And the big cap fights you are talking about, RR wont save you, being primaried by 10-20 odd dreads, or the not uncommon 100+ BS fleets the major alliances field theese days will melt you no matter what fleet or setup you have.
My nidhog setup is quite cheap, and still works.
HIGH 1 X True sansha large EMP smartbomb 1 X domination large proton smartbomb 1 X True sansha heavy energy neut (Bane of tacklers) 2 X Remote reps
MID 1 X Caldari navy sensorbooster 1 X ECCM II 3 X Cap Recharger II
LOW 2 X Armor reps 1 X True sansha EANM 1 X Expl hardner II 1 X Kinetic hardner II 1 X Thermal hardner II
RIGS 3 X CCC
--------------
Maybe not the best setup, but it works, im able to defend myself, and help my friends, relying 100% on your surrounding to save your azz is just not my idea of flying a 1+billion isk ship ;-D
With this setup I have been in and survived numerous encounters against (IMO) one of the absolute best PVP alliances in the game, Evil Thug and his russian crew in -A-
But really its is a matter of taste, i just found what suits me.
Remote shield repping is better here, as it is instant. If you die before the remote reps have time to cycle, then you are obviously toast. I have been primaried a few times in my thanny, and I thank god for the fact I simply load up on resist mods.
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