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Stars in WH's older then known age of universe...EXPLAINED?

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Author	Reply to Topic \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
TimMc Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.20 10:29:00 - [61] - Quote hmmmm.... alternate universe...
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.20 10:30:00 - [62] - Quote I'm all for fun discussions like this... ...but it could be that whoever wrote the star generation code was simply off by a factor of 10. Yes, killjoy, I know. "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Y Berion Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.20 10:46:00 - [63] - Quote Generaly speaking, modern physics is in serious trouble these days. For example, basically we know the effects of gravity but no one knows HOW exactly is it working, and why: http://www.on.br/site_edu_dist_2008/site/conteudo/modulo3/10-materia-escura/imagens/DarkMatterPie.jpg Things called `dark matter` and `dark energy` are something that should make more than 95% of total mass of the universe if we want our theories to work, but no one has a clue what are those and do they exist at all - perhaps they do not. Which would mean that our main theories are deeply wrong. My point regarding this thread - universe might be MUCH older and bigger than we think it is today... it's just we don't know. Yet.
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.20 10:57:00 - [64] - Quote The only reason we think the universe is 13 billion years old is because that is how far we can see. "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Primnproper	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:10:00 - [65] - Quote Originally by: Xailia The only reason we think the universe is 13 billion years old is because that is how far we can see. No its not, it's because if you apply the hubble constant (the speed of expansion of the universe) and run he process backwards then about 13 billion years ago everything would have been in a spot less than a plank length across (if i remember my physics degree correctly) ... Originally by: Graveyard Tan I call bull**** and troll. If you are deaf, how are you even able to read this or type replies?
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:14:00 - [66] - Quote Everything we see would be that distance across; it doesn't mean that there isn't space outside of the visible universe. Bubbles within bubbles... "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Y Berion Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:23:00 - [67] - Quote Originally by: Primnproper Originally by: Xailia The only reason we think the universe is 13 billion years old is because that is how far we can see. No its not, it's because if you apply the hubble constant (the speed of expansion of the universe) and run he process backwards then about 13 billion years ago everything would have been in a spot less than a plank length across (if i remember my physics degree correctly) Unfortunately it's not that simple - the speed of expansion is not constant. Today we see that universe expansion is speeding up at increased rate, but there are also indications that it hasn't been the case all the time.

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:39:00 - [68] - Quote Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 20/03/2009 11:39:44 Originally by: Tahlma The creators of this game are not physicists. This is less true than you'd think... Regardless, the ages on stars, in w-space or otherwise, have no special significance I'm aware of and are not to the best of my knowledge part of some fiendish hidden plot twist. Sorry.

Irida Mershkov Gallente Shadowsun Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:44:00 - [69] - Quote Originally by: CCP Greyscale Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 20/03/2009 11:39:44 Originally by: Tahlma The creators of this game are not physicists. This is less true than you'd think... Regardless, the ages on stars, in w-space or otherwise, have no special significance I'm aware of and are not to the best of my knowledge part of some fiendish hidden plot twist. Sorry. Or were just written on the fly? amirite? You have a lot of explaining to do otherwise.
Tahlma Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:49:00 - [70] - Quote Originally by: CCP Greyscale Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 20/03/2009 11:39:44 Originally by: Tahlma The creators of this game are not physicists. This is less true than you'd think... Regardless, the ages on stars, in w-space or otherwise, have no special significance I'm aware of and are not to the best of my knowledge part of some fiendish hidden plot twist. Sorry. Proof or STFU. I wanna see screen shots of advanced physics degrees. I didn't mean to say the creators of the game are ignorant but rather the function of Eve Online is that of entertainment and not a working model of modern physics theories.

Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.20 12:02:00 - [71] - Quote Originally by: Tahlma Originally by: CCP Greyscale Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 20/03/2009 11:39:44 Originally by: Tahlma The creators of this game are not physicists. This is less true than you'd think... Regardless, the ages on stars, in w-space or otherwise, have no special significance I'm aware of and are not to the best of my knowledge part of some fiendish hidden plot twist. Sorry. Proof or STFU. I wanna see screen shots of advanced physics degrees. I didn't mean to say the creators of the game are ignorant but rather the function of Eve Online is that of entertainment and not a working model of modern physics theories. Is long time ago that I heard it, but one of the company founders was a professor on chaos theory or something like that.
Callista Sincera	Posted - 2009.03.20 12:23:00 - [72] - Quote Originally by: Tahlma These kinds of threads always crack me up. It's just a game. Would you really want to play a game that was 100% realistic? I wouldn't. I doesn't have to be realistic but merely convincing. Originally by: Tahlma And trying to apply our current understanding of science to a hypothetical future is absurd. It's a forum thread. It's not a scientific review. 90% of the discussions in this place are more absurd than this thread. Originally by: Tahlma And considering the is still controversy over the age of the Sphinx I'd say stating the age of the universe as absolute is a little silly. The comparision is rather weak. Determining the age of the Sphinx is only complicated because it isn't as old as the materials it was made of. Its age is the time between shaping its surface and now - not the age of the stone. Unfortunatly, sand has completely eroded the original surface. Dating the current surface would therefore yield useless results. There are many different ways to really measure the age of the universe (and not just deriving it from the hubble constant): The age of the elements (using radioactive decay), looking at thorium lines in the spectrum of old stars (google CS 22892-052 for an explanation) or measuring the luminosity of the most luminous stars in the main sequence (google main-sequence fitting). All of these methods indepependently indicate that the universe is between 11.5 and 14.5 Gyr (=1,000,000,000 years) old. There are also methods to get an upper limit on the age of the universe. Astronomers haven't found any black dwarfs yet (cooled white dwarfs), which means that the universe cannot be a lot older than it takes those stars to cool. Just some hobby/google knowledge for those who care Originally by: Tahlma But if it makes the math nerds feel any better... The clergy of the Amarrian Empire are the ones that set the age of stars based not on science but on the holy scriptures. The other empires allowed this in exchange for the release of some slaves. I guess that would work for the Caldari, but the gallente aren't the type of people to accept such a thing :)
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.20 12:52:00 - [73] - Quote Originally by: Gariuys Is long time ago that I heard it, but one of the company founders was a professor on chaos theory or something like that. Kjartan Pierre Emilsson (LeKjart) has a Ph.D in Mathematical Physics Halld=r Fannar Gu=j=nsson (prepH) & Jon Bjarnason (Atlas) have B.Sc. in Theoretical Physics There are probably others, I noticed one of the Shanghai devs has a degree in Thermal Engineering. "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Zhul Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:03:00 - [74] - Quote Edited by: Zhul Guixgrixks on 20/03/2009 13:07:04 13b is just a current interpretation of astronomical data and it isn't fixed yet. Look at different literature and you will find other interpretations: up to 18b : http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html up to 20b : http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/age_universe_030103.html up to 44b : http://www.springerlink.com/content/52k75047t0844476/ CCP took a number of same magnitude which is fine for a computer game.
Fennicus Amarr Shoot To Thrill	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:30:00 - [75] - Quote Edited by: Fennicus on 20/03/2009 13:36:30 I'm guessing the same people who aged these stars were also responsible for the ridiculous stargate masses. And that it's a lot of unnecessary work to fix it. Quote: 13b is just a current interpretation of astronomical data and it isn't fixed yet. Look at different literature and you will find other interpretations I looked at the literature you linked to and they all agree on something like ~15 billion years. The last paper suggested that it lasts for 44 billion years but that the current age is 13b. The current consensus for the age of the Universe is based on the large amount of evidence to support it; if someone wanted to claim otherwise they'd have to show why all the "interpretations" were wrong. This is why creationists are usually laughed at :) Quote: Generaly speaking, modern physics is in serious trouble these days. For example, basically we know the effects of gravity but no one knows HOW exactly is it working, and why No, physics is not in trouble. The existence of dark matter does not make all our models of gravity and the Universe obsolete. It tells us that there is something we've been missing on a galactic scale, and we're still trying to work out exactly what this is, but if someone tells you that "Einstein was wrong" chances are that they're a crank-pot.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:41:00 - [76] - Quote Wormholes can exist between two points in time as well as space. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Confuzer I	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:47:00 - [77] - Quote My guess of it is: CCP just filled in some attributes. The guy who did it, didn't do a background check. CCP didn't care really, they rather focussed on the functionality of it all, rather then details. Now they get replies that the numbers are odd, and are banging their heads against the wall, because they have to think of something to explain it now. I don't really care, think of something fancy to explain it. Why not timetravel for instance? Then you can introduce Super Mutated Rogue drones for instance. Bit like the advance Borg in on kewl Star Trek episode (it assimilated the portable holographic projector, which was from the future).
C Brachyrhynchos	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:51:00 - [78] - Quote Originally by: Super Whopper Once upon a time it was proven that the world was flat, the Inquisition were pretty good at proving that. I am glad they were right Actually, they didn't. Reformation Europe had pretty much adopted Greek astronomy, much of which was ironically back-translated from Arabic after the reconquest of Spain. So while you can certainly say a lot of horrible things about the Inquisition, they at least knew the Earth was a sphere.
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Firestar Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:57:00 - [79] - Quote Originally by: Taedrin Edited by: Taedrin on 20/03/2009 01:55:55 Originally by: Eventy One Originally by: Irida Mershkov Different universe maybe? Doesn't Universe by definition - include everything? Nope. Universe traditionally refers to the world around us. According to various other theories, there may also be a "Multiverse", which is made up of multiple "universes". The term you are thinking about is "Omniverse", which is by definition, everything. EDIT: After some wikipedia research, the key difference between the terms "universe" and "omniverse" is that the "universe" can only have one set of the laws of physics. An omniverse contains all possible realities with all possible laws of physics. Note that the omniverse may not actually exist in reality, as there very well may only be a single universe. But in the even that the many-world's hypothesis is correct, the terms "multiverse" and "omniverse" are needed. It's a pointless line of thinking. As two universes in a multiverse scenario have different laws of physics, travelling between them is impossible. Even if you take 'brane' theory, where other universes are mathematically observable and can potentially interact with each other (though this is all high theory) it is impossible for energy or matter to pass from one to the other as the 'branes' do not touch.
Zhul Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:04:00 - [80] - Quote Edited by: Zhul Guixgrixks on 20/03/2009 14:04:33 +10 geek points for all ppl posting & reading in this thread :-)

45thtiger 0109	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:11:00 - [81] - Quote Guys remember this is a computer game and its not a theory check on people within CCP. If the game devs and other people within CCP design the game this way let it be pls.
Y Berion Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:15:00 - [82] - Quote Originally by: Fennicus No, physics is not in trouble. The existence of dark matter does not (necessarily) make all our models of gravity and the Universe obsolete. It tells us that there is something we've been missing on a galactic scale, and we're still trying to work out exactly what this is, but if someone tells you that "Einstein was wrong" chances are that they're a crankpot. I would say that we can clearly notice that we are missing something important only on scales larger than galactic one. Our actual model seems to work quite fine while dealing with solar system, star clusters, even whole Milky way. But if we go on enlarging field of view all the way to cosmic superstructures like clusters of galaxies, some small hidden error becomes so big that currently accepted theories all fail. That's why I said physics is in trouble - now there are a lot of various new theories, many of them contradicting each other and none of them being able to offer good answers. So the best results we are able to get at this point are telling us that the cosmos is around 14 bill years old and has the observable (note: not the same as visible) diameter of at least 90 billion light years. Oh and of course Einstein was not wrong. It only seems that he did not see the whole picture
GateScout	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:20:00 - [83] - Quote Before you ask the question, you should examine your assumptions. First, define what you think a 'year' is. Second, tell us why your definition of an arbitrary unit of time is correct as opposed to anyone else's arbitrary definition. Third, (and this is the most difficult) explain how your definition of a "year" is relevant for a frame of reference outside of your own. It's actually a rather fun thought experiment. Once you get done with the third step, ask yourself if it applies to someone that has the ability for 'faster than light' travel (regardless of how it is accomplished). Fun stuff!
Bethulsunamen Viziam	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:22:00 - [84] - Quote Real answer: The ship-scanner that analyzes the age of stars in Wormhole-systems is malfunctioning? Comedy grammar fail is fail at comedy..
Ringleader	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:28:00 - [85] - Quote Quote: There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. /Douglas Adams
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:29:00 - [86] - Quote Hold up... Couldn't gravitational time dilation explain why the star registers as being older than the universe itself? If not, consider it a mystery to be solved. Or proof of intelligent design, your choice really. - Originally by: The Cuckoo Good luck in defending idiotic and greedy noobs, as far as I'm concerned, you are their champion.
Almori	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:41:00 - [87] - Quote this thread is so pointless it makes me a sad panda.
JulsZX	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:46:00 - [88] - Quote What if the wormholes leads to the future? Are the sleepers the remnants of the actual empires?
Piran Eligius Caldari Securities Exchange Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.20 15:07:00 - [89] - Quote Originally by: JulsZX What if the wormholes leads to the future? Are the sleepers the remnants of the actual empires? Dammit. You beat me to it by one line
Grez Minmatar Core Contingency	Posted - 2009.03.20 16:09:00 - [90] - Quote Originally by: Irida Mershkov Different universe maybe? Or is older? Maybe? Also, ibtl. Don't post GM replies dawg. BUG REPORT != PETITION BUG HUNTER != GM THANK YOU FOR READING THIS, MAY YOUR BETTER COMMON SENSE GUIDE YOU TO A BETTER PLACE. --- Have a rawr on me.

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