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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Athren Glasconju
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:58:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Jack Gates "ecm brawlers"
aka "explosion"
"The target".
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Konno Yoshiho
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:59:00 -
[272]
It is becoming more and more apparent that nobody at CCP realy plays their own game. The Caldari ships are the only ECM ships that work exactly like they should. So how about instead of breaking the thing that works to put it back in line with the rest of this steaming heap, those clowns fix the broken bits instead?
It is my hope that, CCP will find a competent developer to take over, and sell, sell, sell.
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Raquel Trotter
Trotters Independent Trading
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:02:00 -
[273]
THANK YOU CCP! Much <3 CCP Chronotis. At last a decent attempt at balance!
Don't listen to all the whiners and cry-babies who want to sit at 200k+ in a cloaking recon with no risk whatsoever.
The role change of the close range falcon and long range rook is excellent! The whole point of covert-recons IMO is to sneak up close to a target, not to setup at extreme range, no other cloaking recon can do this. If you swap the roles then please make the pilgrim, arazu and rapier have 100km effective range on their EW.
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Cailais
Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:02:00 -
[274]
Overall I would agree with these changes. I predominantly fly the pilgrim however, and on that basis if you want a falcon to be a 'brawler' in the same style in needs a tank to match.
Potential solutions might be to improve its base resists, and reduce its base signature radius alternatively to provide an alternate shield boost / hp bonus. Quite how that fits in to the overall bonus pattern of force recons is a bit harder to judge - but the basic principal remains the same - if you're up close you need the tanking ability to survive to make any other bonus relevant.
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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DiseL
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:03:00 -
[275]
How many times can CCP nerf/buff a single item before figuring out they should have left it alone in the first place. A Falcon will be absolutely toast now unless you can guarantee jamming the entire hostile fleet. Even then fast ships with drones like Vaga's, Ishtars, Rapiers, etc. will eliminate Falcons from the fight immediately.
Giving the drone bay to the sniper/long range version of the ship and not the close range version is laughable at best. Combine this with the stealth bomber being pulled in close with Siege launchers and you now have two ships with paper tanks being geared towards close range combat. So now with the Signal Distortion Amps being changed you can fit an armor tank or damage mods on your Caldari recon. Wait, your really expecting a close range Falcon with a 3 low slot armor tank to be viable? Engaging any gang with multiple AF's, Inty's, nano Hacs, etc. and your dead.
The missile velocity bonus on the Rook is a joke because missile's in pvp are also a joke now. Is this quote for real, "can lay some real damage on its target gaining a heavy/heavy assault and standard missile velocity bonus in addition to a small drone bay for additional utility"? Three heavy launchers with zero damage bonus at 100km while rendering the drone bay useless I would not call "real damage".
Balancing the game by making significant changes to one area only causes an imbalance somewhere else down the line. This is why we continue to see nerfs come full circle. Maybe CCP should look up subtlety in the dictionary and try it for a change.
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Nemtar Nataal
Demonic Retribution Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:05:00 -
[276]
You know some one a while back suggested that you canged the optimal range bonus to fall off....this was a really good idear as it would force the ECM pilote to chose between effectiveness and safety!
You should really have taken a look at that option as it would have worked a lot bether with Ewar ships not making the paper thin hauls completely uselless in combat...remember a falcon or rook will get instant poped in any fleet battle so your current system is right back to the trenches where everyone just brings max DPS...
I know you want to give the ships diffrent roles an everything but you should really rething this change. Changing optimal range to falloff would also help a lot for making damps the primory counter for ECM again...which currently is very useless dure to the limited range of damps and the awesome range of ECM.
Check it out im sure you can do somethign good with it...i hope...dont let this changes be final cause frankly i think they will just make people hate ECM even more...both the people who fly the ECM ships and the people who meat them in combat....
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:06:00 -
[277]
I use the blackbird everyday... I'm very worried about this nerf because we essentially are primary and die anyway.
Quote: ECM Range Generally the ECM optimal range is a little too long with massive optimal ranges possible which would place the ECM specialised ships so far out of the fight to be almost completely safe but suffer no effective hit quality decrease. To bring them closer to the fight we are looking at swapping the base optimal and falloff ranges so at the longer ranges jammers would be operating more in falloff and hence have a lower chance of 'hitting' with their jammers at the extreme ranges.
This is because snipers operate usually in 150-200km. Anything longer and their dps tends to not be enough vs falcons. Giving them opportunity to warp and run.
Quote: The SDAs are something of a conundrum. They are really only worth fitting on the ECM specialised ships and are the only EWAR enhancing module we have besides the rigs. Currently they increase your ECM strength and we were looking at swapping this to an ECM range bonus and altering either the base strength of the jammers or the ECM strength bonus of the ships so they become less required in every setup and the low slots could be used for tanking for example.
The same as eccm?
Quote: The falcon has been changed to be similar to the pilgrim in its role as a ECM brawler at shorter ranges. It has a bigger ECM strength bonus whilst losing its ECM optimal range bonus. In addition its agility and base velocity and have been increased to allow it to be more manoeuvrable at shorter ranges.
I was thinking. Completely the opposite. Rook being the dmg dealer and not the cloaker. It tends to be closer in. While the falcons are the ones at 200km.
Quote: Summary Scorpion Changes - removed the ECM optimal range bonus - increased the ECM strength bonus to 20% per level - added a 5% RoF bonus to cruise & siege missile launchers per level.
Sorry but all I can see here is the complete nerf of the scorpion. Let me explain the scorpion.
It is a blackbird. With less slots devoted to ecm because of the increased cost and target of the ship. Scorpions often get primaried by dps. Add on top of that. Cruiser 4 is easier to train the battleship 4. So in a sense blackbird is much better.
The real use of the scorpion wasnt the ecm. It was the ECM Burst. Ecm burst on scorpion was great. Literally afaik the only ship who bonused the ecm burst. Now you are removing the optimal range bonus and making ecm burst horrible and worthless.
Currently my alt flies griffins and blackbird. Eventually moving into falcon and cheap huge buffer torp scorps for fleet ops. The idea being I'd warp into the blob and burst the hell out of them until they are able to kill me. The huge buffer being key. At the same time I could get a few torps out on the targets.
I guess I might just say FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF it. Leave caldari completely because after this... what caldari ship will want to be in pvp? ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:08:00 -
[278]
I will paraphrase my CEO here, as I believe his words are pertinent to the new role the falcons will fill and the consequences this has for falcon pilots:
Keep running *****, your still in my optimal.
Now EVE related mod proof Disco Kitteh |
ChalSto
LOCKDOWN. Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:09:00 -
[279]
omg....thats.....so.......freaking.....AWESOME Originally by: Agmar ----------------------------------------------- "The North is so ghey that even the NPCs fly ravens." |
daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:10:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Spartan dax Well Chronotis, since you guys finally figured out that SDA's Force the ECM ships to stock up on jammers and be usefull for nothing else but jamming and now have decided to change it, take a look at racials while you're at it.
By removing racials and introducing a multispec with slightly higher strength than today but lower than todays racials we'll see ECM ships with only 1-3 jammers instead of 4-5, giving the ECM ships far greater utility as well as being a huge nerf to the "ECM whiners club" as there is less jamming modules around.
It will also make ECM ships extremely sturdy tacklers as they will be with a 3-4 slot Shieldtank, 1 ECM, Point, Web and MWD. A ship to be feared when it drops next to you instead of as today where it just goes "pof".
New Falcon btw ECM Strength Bonus 25% per level 5% Shieldresistances per level Force reconstuff per level.
More agility, speed and maybe 85 more PG, 3/3 turret/launcher slot configuration instead of 2/2 and since it's supposed to be closer increase it's scan res as well slightly and give it a dronebay! A close range tackler with less dps and slower lock than a frig? That would be useless. Drone bay!
Love the proposed scorp but give it a 125m3 drone bandwidth. The Rook deserves a 10% missile velocity bonus so screw the dronebay.
What he said, needing 4 racial jammers to have a credible chance of jamming an unknown ship is a heavy price for a Falcon to pay.
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Pian Shu
SPORADIC MOVEMENT Cruor-Salax Legion
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:13:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Pian Shu on 24/03/2009 23:14:37
Originally by: Merin Ryskin You know what's really hilarious, in a sad way? Everyone is complaining about the Falcon in solo and small-gang fights, the fleet pilots just insta-pop them with sniper battleships/HACs. And guess what these changes are going to do in a solo or small-gang fight: absolutely nothing. Falcon alts with the new Falcon will still perma-jam one or two targets just fine and ruin every "1v1" they get into, and people will still fill the forums with whine threads about it.
Not true.
What do you consider "small gang"? I like to think of a small gang as around 5. With these changes, one Falcon will not be able to jam four of your buddies and ignore you because he'll be within range. And, he'll be within range of FoF missiles (what? missiles aren't useful in PvP?) and drones. If the Falcon fitted a tank, he won't be as easy to kill, but he won't be able to jam everyone either. These changes make it about choice instead of doing the same thing over and over again.
There's no such thing as a 1v1; remember that and you won't be upset when a Falcon jams you, a Pilgrim neuts you or an Arazu damps you while you're shooting at something you had a 50/50 chance of winning against.
What is infuriating about the Falcon is that it in addition to rendering a ship useless, it is practically invulnerable. The range change is exactly what is needed.
Falcon alts are easy now because you don't really have to do much thinking. You simply warp in at 200km and jam the target. There is no danger. With these changes, its more complicated than that -- you're in danger, especially if you miss a jam.
(see, I can bold and italicize things too, and I'll raise you an underscore)
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GateScout
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:15:00 -
[282]
Edited by: GateScout on 24/03/2009 23:15:29
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Can you read? I made my point. Go read it again.
And your conclusion is incorrect at elast in my opinion). ECCM works great when paired with a racially limited, chanced based module like ECM. Comparing it to other e-war without this acknowledgment misses a key part of the argument.
Originally by: Guillame Herschel That's fine, so long as ECCM is changed to be a viable counter to ECM.
ECCM is fine. Personally, I'd like to see a script for a sensor booster that increased sensor strength while limiting scan res and targeting range....but that won't happen.
Originally by: Guillame Herschel It actually makes a hell of a lot more sense for ECM not to be chance-based.
...or just give a large strength bonus to multispecs.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:16:00 -
[283]
Me likes changes. Falcons were afk-alt-tab ships. Now they will need at least some degree of skill to use.
So whats next after falcons? Titans maybe, its long overdue and you know it :D
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:20:00 -
[284]
Sounds like this has been given alot of thought.
ECCM is currently under used as a weapon against ECM. It has but a single purpose of countering ECM - what changes are coming down the pipe for ECCM. How will these range vs strengh changes effect it?
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Khandahar Bob
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:23:00 -
[285]
Originally by: GateScout
Personally, I'd like to see a script for a sensor booster that increased sensor strength while limiting scan res and targeting range....but that won't happen.
That's genius.
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Master Hu
Caldari Flight of the Phoenix Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:28:00 -
[286]
Some Recon ship questions and ideas:
If Minmatar recons web bonus work 100% of the time on targets, and Amarr neuts work 100% of the time on targets, and Gallente point bonus works 100% of the time, then why Caldari ECM chance based? Shouldn't it work 100% of the time on targets within it's range just like the others?
Why nerf something that is chance based on ship skills and fitting when the others are not?
So I guess you need to put the Falcon in a class as the other recons, if within range then it jams 100% guaranteed but within a certain range. Give them a boost to resistance since they will now to be close combat ships. And agility is of no consequence really, the falcon is snap/crackle/boom in 1 shot from a BS anyway. Time to give it some beef inline with the other recon ships.
If you are going to change the makeup of a ship and it's roles, then you need to make it survivable like the others as well.
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:31:00 -
[287]
I read the proposed changes and 1 thing immidiately stands out:
it seems like the roles of Falcon and Rook are reversed
Rook has better resistences, much better weaponry - it seems like the best choice for short range combat. It should have stronger ECM at small range.
Falcon on other hand is less defensible, much weaker weapons, and it's ideal for sneaking about - it is most suitable for operating at long sniper ranges. It should have weaker ECM and long range.
Do you see how that makes more sense?
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MaDeX
Rising Devils United Pod Service
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:36:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Master Hu Some Recon ship questions and ideas:
If Minmatar recons web bonus work 100% of the time on targets, and Amarr neuts work 100% of the time on targets, and Gallente point bonus works 100% of the time, then why Caldari ECM chance based? Shouldn't it work 100% of the time on targets within it's range just like the others?
Why nerf something that is chance based on ship skills and fitting when the others are not?
So I guess you need to put the Falcon in a class as the other recons, if within range then it jams 100% guaranteed but within a certain range. Give them a boost to resistance since they will now to be close combat ships. And agility is of no consequence really, the falcon is snap/crackle/boom in 1 shot from a BS anyway. Time to give it some beef inline with the other recon ships.
If you are going to change the makeup of a ship and it's roles, then you need to make it survivable like the others as well.
You're wrong, explain why my minnie recon had 90% web now 50%.
If anything the minnie recon would need a boost only to that ship.
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Renarla
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:36:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Master Hu Some Recon ship questions and ideas:
If Minmatar recons web bonus work 100% of the time on targets, and Amarr neuts work 100% of the time on targets, and Gallente point bonus works 100% of the time, then why Caldari ECM chance based? Shouldn't it work 100% of the time on targets within it's range just like the others?
Why nerf something that is chance based on ship skills and fitting when the others are not?
So I guess you need to put the Falcon in a class as the other recons, if within range then it jams 100% guaranteed but within a certain range. Give them a boost to resistance since they will now to be close combat ships. And agility is of no consequence really, the falcon is snap/crackle/boom in 1 shot from a BS anyway. Time to give it some beef inline with the other recon ships.
If you are going to change the makeup of a ship and it's roles, then you need to make it survivable like the others as well.
Because it's the only form of EWar that can remove any ship from any fight with 100% effectiveness.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:36:00 -
[290]
TBH, I don't know how it will work out but I'm really concerned about the overall strength of ECM.
The Scorp would then have (assuming SDA's went from strength to range) with <Racial> ECM II: 3.6 base * 1.25 (skills) * 2 (bs 5) = 9 ECM strength
..... RUSRS? That's your idea of a "brawler"? Thanks for the ROF bonus. Make sure to give it 6 launchers, because that's all I need. 6 launchers, 8 mids, 4 lows, 5% ROF Bonus. KTHX.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:37:00 -
[291]
This is all very interesting. I would consider one more chage to the Falcon:
Give it a 3rd launcher hardpoint.
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Hai Guys
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:38:00 -
[292]
Changes seem reasonable, though the Rook should be the close range brawler and the Falcon should have the range.
The way it's proposed doesn't make any sense.
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:38:00 -
[293]
The Scrop changes looks very nice :).
That makes me love the Scrop again :).
And I concur, give the Falcon 3 x launcher points.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:39:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Hai Guys Changes seem reasonable, though the Rook should be the close range brawler and the Falcon should have the range.
The way it's proposed doesn't make any sense.
I think it do. That Cov ops cloak combined with the new bonuses mkaes it very nice indeed.
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Murdah
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:42:00 -
[295]
Signal Distortion Amplifiers
The SDAs are something of a conundrum. They are really only worth fitting on the ECM specialised ships and are the only EWAR enhancing module we have besides the rigs. Currently they increase your ECM strength and we were looking at swapping this to an ECM range bonus and altering either the base strength of the jammers or the ECM strength bonus of the ships so they become less required in every setup and the low slots could be used for tanking for example.
Umm, 1600MM plate Falcon FTW? Have you guys actually ever logged into this game? It's gonna rain down Murdah |
haq aan
Omega Enterprises Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:44:00 -
[296]
1- (Originally by: GateScout) Personally, I'd like to see a script for a sensor booster that increased sensor strength while limiting scan res and targeting range.
2- * Redesign the current dice based ' Now u go afk for 20 sec! ' ECM Mechanics !!!
Thoose 2 are the only ideas in this thread that leads to better EVE.
Only then u can decide the bonus' of ships.
haq
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Lucy Winter
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:46:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Khandahar Bob
Originally by: GateScout
Personally, I'd like to see a script for a sensor booster that increased sensor strength while limiting scan res and targeting range....but that won't happen.
That's genius.
Definitely genius.
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Chssmius
Capital Support House of Mercury
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:48:00 -
[298]
The rook should be closer in and the falcon further away. Replace the ECM range bonus with 5% or 10% missile velocity per level(for cruiser skill).
15% ECM strength bonus per recon level is fine. But replace the 5% kin missile damage with something like 5% shield resist per recon level, 7.5% or 10% shield HP per recon level.
Quote:
Summary Falcon changes
- ECM Strength Bonus increased from 20 to 25% per level - ECM Optimal Range Bonus removed (52km optimal / 81km falloff w/ 2*SDA IIs) - Increase in general manoeuvrability (might give agility bonus to it to replace the ECM optimal range bonus)
They are basically trying to swap the roles of the rook and the falcon.
Reducing a falcons optimal range to less than quarter of what it was(the 2 SDA IIs add to range not strength in the given example) while doubling the falloff with a slight boost in jamming strength. The falcon has junk for damage options. Needs at least 3 mids to fit something resembling a tank. I am having trouble envisioning a falcons use in the future, as 3 mids would be half the ECM modules on most falcons.
This may turn the falcon into a "drive by only" ewar platform. Kind of like stealth bombers are now only more expensive, harder to train for, and easier catch. I am having trouble envisioning situations where pilots and FC's would rather have a falcon than "something else," though I may not be using my imagination. The falcons biggest advantage before these proposed changes was that the tremendous range meant it wasn't a liability to a fleet.
With these changes, if a falcon engages at 70 km* from the center of a fight that is otherwise confined within point range then something like an interceptor could be on top of it in the time it takes a single jam cycle to finish.
*~18km into falloff with perfect skills means ~90% of max effectiveness. Point range is a bubble 20 km in diameter. Interceptor is assumed to immediately break off from the fight and close on the falcon at ~5 km/s while the falcon MWDs away at ~1km/s. Interceptors is assumed to only need to get inside of 20 km of the falcon and traverse through 10 km of the fight. This leave 40 km which should be covered in approximately 10 seconds which is half the duration of an ECM module. Even if the interceptor is slower, the falcon faster, the "fight bubble" bigger, and the interceptor doesn't break off immediately, there is still a good chance that it would catch the falcon before it finishes its first cycle.
By the end of the first cycle the falcon has probably been called primary and been locked by enough of the enemy to make for unpleasant times. The second ECM cycle(remember, chance based) had better jam the interceptor is all I can say. The good news is interceptors don't have great sensor strength, but some pilots might take to fitting overheated ECCM's to something like a Stiletto which would put the issue up to lady luck.
The other alternative for a falcon would be to be 50% effective at 60% its previous operating range. Unless ECM base strength is significantly boosted this sounds like a losing combination. I don't understand CCPs obsession with using a sledge hammer to drive a tack.
Quote:
Summary Scorpion Changes
- removed the ECM optimal range bonus - increased the ECM strength bonus to 20% per level - added a 5% RoF bonus to cruise & siege missile launchers per level.
If the objective is to make the Scorpion a "brawler" then forget about a RoF bonus and add something to help it tank getting primaried.
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Artemis Dragmire
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:48:00 -
[299]
Posting my support for these changes.
Bring the falcon into the same range category as the Arazu. This is a great plan.
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Rina Wright
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:49:00 -
[300]
Wow, you guys in CCP are full with great ideas. I guess you didn't pay attention how much falcon cost in the market recently plus, let me fill you in on that falcon doesn't have any tank whatsoever, it's only chance to survive is to keep the distance. I thought falcon is at least one good pvp ship that caldari race has but I guess it's gonna change soon. Just concentrate on fixing bugs, don't mess with ships!!!
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