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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Alessera
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:02:00 -
[1]
I was victim of what I consider grief play yet two CCP GM's did not understand my trouble. Here is the situation.
One or two miners mine ore and jet collectively in a can while an industrial ship merely transfer the ore to it's cargo bay. We use one unit of Tobacco or Oxygen or whatnot to keep the can from self-destruct. The grievers took the one unit of trade good thus killing the container. No big deal, right? But any effort to attempt to transfer ore from mining barge to industrial ship is negated when the griever takes the ore, popping the can and suffering the pentalty of jetting another can (it would just be stolen again). The aggressors did not leave for 20 minutes which halted our mining efforts.
As we had no means to retaliate I consider this harassment. I filed a petition on two players which left me disapointed in the results. No pentalty given to the people involved. Please read this and tell me it doesn't fit into the CCP term of "grief play":
Grief Play
(link text):
"Grief play
What is grief play?
Griefing
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersĘ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players.
This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.
An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated."
This kind of mischief is what I believe to be considered "grief play". Can flipping is just wrong and hinders those trying to enjoy the game. I wish CCP would consider this "grief play".
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Token Prophet
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:08:00 -
[2]
Trolling is griefing the forums. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:09:00 -
[3]
why didn't you just get a hulk, fit drones and a scram to it, and kill them?
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CareBeer
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:16:00 -
[4]
Sorry this is afaik allowed by ccp
however there is a way around this problems, just train for an orca then u can transfer the ore/ice directly to the orca without using a jetcan leaving u with plenty of time to laugh at the canflippers
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Melor Rend
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:26:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Alessera As we had no means to retaliate I consider this harassment.
Why did you have no means to retaliate? There are many ways you can defend against this kind of thing... You could have:
- Switched ship and killed them (thats why you get kill rights) - Put a point and drones on one of your ships and bait the thieves - Joined a corp with a PvP wing that could defend your mining ops - Changed location - Dock up for 20 mins until the thieves get bored (blue balls tatics)
Thats five things you could have done to retaliate and I only spent like 30 seconds thinking about it. So clearly it's not grief play - it may be unfriendly and it may go on your nerves but it's still a totally legitimate way to play EVE.
If I'm sitting in 0.0 somewhere and the outpost I'm in gets bubble camped with a 100 man fleet then I'm also hindered in my normal game play - however this is not griefing - it's a valid way to prevent hostiles from forming up, organizing, replacing ships and earning ISK to replace said ships etc.
The guys that harrased you were likely doing the same thing - by preventing you from mining they could be influencing ship productions for your corp/alliance which in turn makes you weaker in PvP which in turn makes it easier for the hostiles to invade you or to prevent you from invading them. All perfectly reasonable choises imo.
Cheers
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N'tek alar
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Alessera while he does not profit from it in any way.
He DOES profit from it, He gets your ore, And the possibility of you being silly enough to attack him for stealing and letting him kill and loot your ship.
So no, This does not fit the criteria set by CCP in order to be considered grief tactics >_> |
Mrs Snowman
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Alessera As we had no means to retaliate I consider this harassment.
Boom! Hullshot!
This is your mistake, while you may not have been equipt to retaliate the game offers many many ways that you COULD have equipt yourself, and therefore is not considered harassment.
The only time you would have been correct is if the player in question was using an exploit, or an "unintended game feature"
Your story is typical, intended and expected. |
Rordan D'Kherr
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: MotherMoon why didn't you just get a hulk, fit drones and a scram to it, and kill them?
Just shoot him. Solved.
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Mostly Amazing
Gallente Mostly Amazing Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:40:00 -
[9]
While in this case it's true that they did nothing against game rules, CCP's is really vague about what is considdered griefing and what's not.
EVE is a cold harsh game where people kill eachother for any number of silly reasons, yet griefing is not allowed.
At what point do your actions in EVE become griefing.
What's the difference between a can baiter and a pirate when both attempt to lure victims into PVP. -------------- I R Not Completely Amazing, But I R Mostly Amazing |
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2009.03.26 10:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mostly Amazing What's the difference between a can baiter and a pirate when both attempt to lure victims into PVP.
Pirates sometimes begin fair fights, or even fights they will most likely lose (props to Raiiden :) ). I have yet to hear about a can baiter who came to fight in a Hulk.
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.03.26 10:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mostly Amazing At what point do your actions in EVE become griefing.
When it's a campaign focused on one particular person, rather than some random acts of annoyance against anyone who just happens to be nearby. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.26 10:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Alessera I was victim of what I consider grief play yet two CCP GM's did not understand my trouble. Here is the situation.
This kind of mischief is what I believe to be considered "grief play". Can flipping is just wrong and hinders those trying to enjoy the game. I wish CCP would consider this "grief play".
CCP allows grief play under two conditions.
1. No grief play in starter systems 2. No continued grief play targeting the same person over and over.
If the same person does what he did over and over in the course of several weeks, then you are 'personally harassed' and GM's might take action. One incident is perfectly allowable. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Jack Dant
Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
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Posted - 2009.03.26 10:41:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness Pirates sometimes begin fair fights, or even fights they will most likely lose (props to Raiiden :) ). I have yet to hear about a can baiter who came to fight in a Hulk.
Real case: I flip a can in a frigate, miner is way older than I am. Miner goes to station and returns in his battleship. I happily engage said battleship and die. Then I go back to my station, pick up a battlecruiser, and kill his battleship.
This, with variations, is repeated often when flipping cans. You nearly always have to use a smaller ship than the miner. Because, after all, you need him to want to engage.
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AkRoYeR
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.26 10:42:00 -
[14]
This post deserves the "I don't understand EvE mechanics" award for 2009.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2009.03.26 10:44:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 26/03/2009 10:45:55 Expert troll or genuine WoW player*? You decide.
I can't. Epic either way though
*j/k
Oh, and I'll just leave these here:
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DesuSigs |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.03.26 10:58:00 -
[16]
Maybe just anchor a secure container and transfer the ore in smaller portions?
It isn't hard. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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TimMc
Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.26 11:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Oh, and I'll just leave these here:
I love those pics.
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ThrashPower
Gallente Black Rainbow Knights
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Posted - 2009.03.26 11:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Maybe just anchor a secure container and transfer the ore in smaller portions?
It isn't hard.
quoted for truth, canflipping is not an offense outside starter-systems, thus you have to work around it.
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Ratchman
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Posted - 2009.03.26 11:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Merdaneth CCP allows grief play under two conditions.
1. No grief play in starter systems 2. No continued grief play targeting the same person over and over.
If the same person does what he did over and over in the course of several weeks, then you are 'personally harassed' and GM's might take action. One incident is perfectly allowable.
That sounds pretty much how I would define grief play.
What's happened to the OP is a petty annoyance, but doesn't quite come under the purview of grief play. There are a number of things you can do, as previously mentioned, but the best one is to have corpmates in the immediate vicinity in combat ships. It's always funny to see can-flippers emoraging in local after their ship gets destroyed by your corpies.
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The Riddik
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Posted - 2009.03.26 11:55:00 -
[20]
lol.
tears.
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Alessera
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Posted - 2009.03.26 12:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CareBeer Sorry this is afaik allowed by ccp
however there is a way around this problems, just train for an orca then u can transfer the ore/ice directly to the orca without using a jetcan leaving u with plenty of time to laugh at the canflippers
Ale is on her way to getting a Hulk atm, about 14 days from the time of this reply. We do plan on getting an Orca (we are a 3 person Corp at this time). How do you transfer ore directly to another ship with no middle-man jetcan?
Thanks for all the helpful replies.
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Vak'ran
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Posted - 2009.03.26 13:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Alessera How do you transfer ore directly to another ship with no middle-man jetcan?
Orcas have an onboard corp hangar, when you are close enough and in the same corp you can put stuff in it just like you would at a POS corp hangar structure or another capital ship. -----
Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forums. |
MooKids
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.03.26 13:29:00 -
[23]
Jet can mining was originally an exploit. True story! -------------------------------- CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity. |
Gefex
Genco Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.26 14:09:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Alessera But any effort to attempt to transfer ore from mining barge to industrial ship is negated when the griever takes the ore
Several options really
- Use a secure container anchored in space - Use an Orca - Have a cloaked bodyguard on hand to pop can flippers - Mine in mission sites (You can be probed but your much less likely to be discovered by casual flippers)
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Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
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Posted - 2009.03.26 15:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gefex - Mine in mission sites (You can be probed but your much less likely to be discovered by casual flippers)
This is good advice, lots of ore in missions that never gets exploited.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.26 15:21:00 -
[26]
To engage seriously with the question,CCP's definition of griefing includes the concept that the behavior isn't profitable to the alleged griefer in some way.
As a professional hauler of ore I did not mine myself, I routinely remove "placeholder" jet cans from space. This is profitable because it tends to encourage such miners to go elsewhere, leaving the ore for people who are more willing to mine directly into the jet can, where I can get at it.
It's annoying, I'm sure, but it's got nothing to do with grief play.
A lot of EVE is about control of resources or space. And a lot of the things you can do to exert control of space may look like grief to somebody who doesn't understand how EVE works. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Apollo Gabriel
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Posted - 2009.03.26 16:21:00 -
[27]
To the OP,
It can be very frustrating when someone comes and steals your ore, yet you must accept that this game mechanic is part of Eve. You have a few choices, accept it or leave eve because it won't change.
Now assuming you accept it, the devil is in the details. If you were mining and Sleeper Battleships popped out of a wormhole and took your ore, you would run like hell or be killed. Why are you treating the best AI any differently? That is players are the true monsters in Eve, they are out to kill you and they will loot your corpse, treat them as you would any beast or alien you might encounter.
Fly safe, bring friends, even friends with big guns, Apollo Gabriel
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Kuar Z'thain
Fraser's Finest
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Posted - 2009.03.26 16:32:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Players are the true monsters in Eve, they are out to kill you and they will loot your corpse, treat them as you would any beast or alien you might encounter.
Great advice for anyone.
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Lifelongnoob
Caldari Final Conflict UK Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.26 16:40:00 -
[29]
i use bookmarks to old roids or wormholes to keep my can open so all they steal is a useless bookmark.
but if your getting griefed by these guys all the time i suggest u join a corp with some guys that can pvp for ya... pay them isk and they will often watch your back.
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Draeca
Tharri and Co.
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Posted - 2009.03.26 16:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mostly Amazing What's the difference between a can baiter and a pirate when both attempt to lure victims into PVP.
Using 'pirates' and 'can baiters' in the same sentence should be a petitionable offense. There is a difference, and it's a huge one.
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