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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
287
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Posted - 2012.05.04 14:34:00 -
[91] - Quote
Halete wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Again I have to ask: what is the grounds for dismissing the concerns about Ishukone's support of the Empire as past issues? Teraa Matar aren't. I-RED still is, though, which is what I meant. Apologies for the misunderstanding. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
112
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:26:00 -
[92] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: I-RED still is, though, which is what I meant. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Ah, that's quite fine. Admittedly, I'd misread. Dirty heretical mud-child, reporting in. |
Gottii
Lutinari Syndicate Electus Matari
67
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:09:00 -
[93] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:As a man who has many friends in the Minmatar Republic and a good working relationship with I-RED (despite one member's repeated and inexplicable attempts to ruin it), I'd strongly advise Minmatar corporations to consider this:
The State, even if it's run by a madman, is still geared towards the generation of profit. If the State thinks you're a better customer than the Empire, it'll start adjusting its foreign policies to reflect that belief. I-RED severed ties with its Amarrian business partners because they were thieves and liars. They're now looking to replace the Amarrians with someone more reliable and less likely to stab them in the back during a moment of weakness - such as what happened with CVA. That could be you.
You want to really hurt the Empire? Attack its friendships. Ruin its economic ventures. Lure away its allies with better deals. Make it clear that you are a superior choice of companion.
All of this makes sense so long as you're okay with having allies that previously turned on their past allies. If they sold out their past allies once it became profitable to do so, it would be foolish to think they wouldn't do so to us.
And, of course, if you're willing to trample the memory of your enslaved brethren by allying yourself with the people who saw them as a market to exploit for profit as opposed to a crime to stop.
I've done many distasteful things in the name of the goddess of realpolitik, but that is an alliance I do not think I would be comfortable with. |
Simca Develon
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
32
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:52:00 -
[94] - Quote
Many of you are saying that the State supports slavery. It does not. Let's make that clear. Yes the State is allies with the Amarr Empire, but we also are not the type to tell someone else how to rule their own empire. In other words we are not going to tell the Amarr how to be the Amarr. They want to hold slaves because it's part of their religion and cultural history then fine let them do so. We may not like it, but it's also none of our business how they run their own affairs.
As for TCMCs, did Ishukone sell them to the Amarr? Yes. Did they market them towards workforce control? Yes. That's old news, and opinions should have already been drawn about that. TCMCs can be used as a means of controlling slaves. Big news. They're also more humane and easier to undo than Vitoc, but no one seems to have thought to mention that. This is the last I will speak on this topic.
If any of you have serious interest or questions about the trade agreement you know how to contact us. If you don't want to be part of the trade agreement then we will simply move forward without you. Je suis le commencement de votre fin. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
225
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:58:00 -
[95] - Quote
Gottii wrote: All of this makes sense so long as you're okay with having allies that previously turned on their past allies. If they sold out their past allies once it became profitable to do so, it would be foolish to think they wouldn't do so to us.
And, of course, only so long as you're willing to trample the memory of your enslaved brethren by allying yourself with the people who saw them as a market to exploit for profit as opposed to a crime to stop.
I've done many distasteful things in the name of the goddess of realpolitik, but that is an alliance I do not think I would be comfortable with.
The inability of some to distinguish between business and politics never ceases to amaze me.
I-RED is looking for business partners, not allies. You and your people will continue to play the victim because every time someone acts against your perceived interests, you behave as though they've wedged a knife between your shoulder blades.
As for the whole TCMC controversy, you really should do some research. The Holder market for TCMCs in the Kingdom was saturated years ago, and the trade agreement between Khanid Innovation and Ishukone ended when it became more lucrative to sell the devices to Gallente idiots looking for the next high.
Besides, Ishukone lost their exclusive patent to TCMCs when Concord liberalized the market and allowed capsuleers to build them, royalty-free, on remote planetary factories. Also, the vast majority of TCMC demand these days is for use in RCMs. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
469
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:10:00 -
[96] - Quote
I believe this thread has reached any maximum of usefulness.
We get it. You're butthurt because Zainou Biotech modified the TCMC and Ishukone decided to sell it to somebody you dislike, so now you're not interested in doing business for any subsidiary of us. But I guess that thought never crossed your mind when you welcomed Hilen Tukoss, Program Director at the Otosela Neuropsychology Center for Zainou Biotech, into the Republic. I'll let the implications of that speak for itself.
I find it amusing that the Republic would so readily accept Ishukone into their borders when it harms us, but are unwilling to truly cooperate and work together. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
287
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Posted - 2012.05.04 17:16:00 -
[97] - Quote
I believe Captain Oniseki and Captain Develon above have quite apptly summarized why many Matari are not too enthusiastic about this business proposal.
The thread seems to have indeed reached its conclusion.
Elsebeth |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
470
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Posted - 2012.05.04 17:19:00 -
[98] - Quote
Yes. Kindly take Electus Matari out of the thread then so more open minded organizations can make use of it. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
287
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:41:00 -
[99] - Quote
Apparently the part where it is not a good idea to insult people you want to co-operate with is still not quite clear...
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
473
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Posted - 2012.05.04 17:57:00 -
[100] - Quote
Apparently the part where you're not included in that group is still not quite clear... |
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
287
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:04:00 -
[101] - Quote
I have nothing to say to that beyond repeating a third time the same question, or giving a third time the same advice, so I will indeed bow out and leave you to it.
Naturally, if you decide to take the advice and/or answer the question, I am willing to hear that, and reconsider your offer.
Elsebeth |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
478
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Posted - 2012.05.04 20:51:00 -
[102] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Again I have to ask: what is the grounds for dismissing the concerns about Ishukone's support of the Empire as past issues?
Because it makes good business sense to sell to those who have need of your goods.
The Amarr Holder market represented, at the time, the single largest market for the Zainou modified TCMCs. To ignore that market on moral grounds would be both foolish and naive, especially for a megacorporation that has already found itself in dire financial straits for exactly that reason. Ishukone sold to Holders in bulk because they needed to buy in bulk, not piecemeal. Ishukone offered a discount for those bulk sales to ensure that the most could be made of that market while it was still active and fresh.
The Holder Market exhausted itself of need for TCMCs after that initial rush, since comparatively few new slaves enter the Empire in any legal quantity. Most Holders who wanted TCMCs already have all they need, and one chip lasts many lifetimes.
In simpler terms, yes Ishukone still sells TCMCs to Amarr Holders, though in much smaller quantities than it did two years ago. Ishukone also sells TCMCs to any qualified entity who requires them, including bulk sales in the Minmatar Republic for industrial bio-robotics usage. They were not designed for slavery, they simply have uses in it.
Is Ishukone enabling slavery by providing tools for it? Yes, technically. Has Ishukone also provided equally powerful tools against it? Yes.
The onus is not on Ishukone Corporation or any other Caldari megacorp to free your enslaved brothers and sisters, nor is it on Ishukone to purposefully ignore willing trade partners because they use Ishukone product on slaves. Ishukone is a business, and its primary concern is profit that benefits Ishukone and trade partners, which do include both your political friends and enemies. If you do not agree with that, I'm afraid that's your choice on the matter.
All of that said, I-RED is not Ishukone Corporation, and Ishukone Corporation is not I-RED. We are a capsuleer subsidiary who's majority shareholder is Ishukone Corporation. That may not seem like much of a difference to those who don't understand basic corporate economics, but it is.
I-RED - not Ishukone Corporation - is looking to help the Republic economy by stimulating increased trade, improving existing infrastructure, and providing employment and contracts for Republic citizens. Of course, this is not a humanitarian effort. We seek profit. Even so, it's a win-win situation for both parties. Simply put, the Republic benefits from working with I-RED, as we have shown with our other dealings with other organizations.
Those who are willing to set aside the moral squeamishness of Ishukone Corporation's business dealings and look toward the betterment of the people they have already freed with an improved Republic economy through open trade with willing and friendly partners... you're welcome to contact us. |
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
10
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Posted - 2012.05.04 21:09:00 -
[103] - Quote
*chuckles* Ah, the lovely Oniseki-haani. I truly could not have said it better myself.
Back on topic, though, I sincerely hope that Minmatar factions will not let this opportunity come to pass. |
Cheiftan
Shinryaku Jakkaru Reikon
11
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:29:00 -
[104] - Quote
Heh
I'll say two things before i get heckled off with claims (some true) of my treason and war mongering.
Firstly, i would not trust John as far as i could throw him, i don't think its a secret about our bad blood, or the fact we haven't spoken or made contact with each other since our little war, the fact he can re-write history as he pleases. but to the victors the spoils i guess... *smirks*
You are all expendable, he says it himself, but lets not start throwing mud at each other, and beat the dead dog further.
Secondly, its nice to see the Cal-Matar still lives on, my hopes and my dreams, a set of ideals forged many moons ago with sincerity and respect. its a shame to see John put his grubby little mitts on my child and turned it into a profit scheme.
However...
Korsavius is a good man, sometimes misguided but he has heart, and allot of it, for him to take the reigns of an organization that was forged with the same fire and passion that burns inside him, well i have high hopes for the Cal-Matar again.
Just remember old friend, do not allow this to become a puppet of one mans lies and greed.
You have the potential to do great things and succeed where i have failed.
Good luck old friend.
With respect and best wishes.
-Cheiftan |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
481
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:53:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cheiftan wrote:Stuff
-Cheiftan
Where is your hair?!
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Gottii
Lutinari Syndicate Electus Matari
69
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:56:00 -
[106] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote:
The inability of some to distinguish between business and politics never ceases to amaze me.
This is foolishness couched as pretentious wisdom. The obvious truth is that for the Caldari business is politcs, and vice versa. To be ignorant of this is to be utterly ignorant of the Caldari.
As for leaving, I will do so. Mine is a poor and often coarse voice, but it the only one I have. But it is at least a voice, which is more than our enslaved kin posses. And while I never claimed to speak for all or even most Matari, at least it is a Matari voice.
This is not a distant or past event. Even now, somewhere within the vast Empire, it is all but certain an Ishkuone machine is being forced into a Matari slave. Even now the Caldari aid their allies against those who would try to stop it. This is a present evil, not an ancient grudge.
Someone must speak unpleasant truths. The Minmatar pilots considering this proposal needed to know abou the realities of what they were being asked to do. Now they do, and they are better for it. Indeed, many of the Caldari pilots themselves seemed blissfully or willfully ignorant to the reality of the situation.
The simple truth is that if you harm a helpess people for no better reason than greater profits, those people will remember. Many of them will likely not forgive or forget easily, nor should they. Some will possibly seek vengence or war. Caldari accountants would do well to include that simple truth into their profit statements.
Some people find simple truths to be offensive or rude. But it is a common right of passage for adolescents to be upset when they discover their parents are not, in fact, the flawless heroes they thought they were as children. |
Cheiftan
Shinryaku Jakkaru Reikon
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:57:00 -
[107] - Quote
stress made me go bald...
*Chuckles*
Fancy a drink somtime? |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
481
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:47:00 -
[108] - Quote
Cheiftan wrote:stress made me go bald...
*Chuckles*
Fancy a drink somtime?
Sorry dear, I'm spoken for. |
Simca Develon
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:21:00 -
[109] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Sorry dear, I'm spoken for.
That she is.
Je suis le commencement de votre fin. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
287
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 07:03:00 -
[110] - Quote
I thank Captain Oniseki for the honest answer.
For the record, I do not think I-RED is dishonorable in their dealings here, in the sense that I do not think they are betraying what they believe in or trying to deceive the people they seek trade with. I believe this is an honest offer, and that they are genuinely baffled and frustrated about our reasons of advising turning it down.
That said, the Caldari ideal where organizations or individuals cannot be judged by who they associate with, is equally baffling to me.
Yes, Ishukone does not sell only to slavers - but I cannot see how that makes targeting them with special offers and discounts somehow less "supporting" them. Yes, the TCMC "workforce control" markets have been satisfied and so Ishukone probably has less income from that now - but why would that mean we should ignore that it was Ishukone who flooded those markets with cheap gadgets, so that every Holder had an access to the technology, and they can make profits of it? Yes, I-RED is reaching out to Matari now - but how does that mean we should ignore the fact that as long as it can be made profitable, the Enemy is still who Ishkone sides with?
Just because you are also reaching out to Minmatar, does not in my books make it irrelevant that you are part of Ishukone.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Veto. Veto Corp
84
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Posted - 2012.05.05 07:46:00 -
[111] - Quote
A PR snafu caused by hardliners always makes for good reading.
I know, I worked PR once. |
ValentinaDLM
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
487
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:39:00 -
[112] - Quote
If Ishkuone wouldn't have sold them, and a market existed someone else would have, it is as simple as that. Blame the politics that make TCMCs a reality, after all concord could easily ban them, of course it seems a fair bit more humane than vitoc but that isn't the point.
The question as I see it is this, should the matari embrace free markets or not? There are alternatives of course, I know even Rek Jaiga himself used to do lots of things off the market. Isk doesn't even have to be the end all currency, after all tritanium has intrinsic value that isk doesn't.
However, in this Interconnected economy that is New Eden, unless you have a top class workforce, such as Sansha's Nation, you will be left behind if you don't pursue a free market system. So does the republic want to play second fiddle to the other empires for the sake of their morality or will they forsake their morals for power, only time will tell. I have no horse in this race, so this is how I view it. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
287
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:54:00 -
[113] - Quote
A free market means that we are free to choose our associates. We do not have to choose to deal with Ishukone or any other party to "embrace free markets". A free market also means that you cannot claim innocence for the choice to sell at a discount for a particular purpose based on the (in Ishukone's case probably true) idea that if you had not, someone else would have.
Gradient sells at discount to people we recognize as fighting on our side. That is a choice we can make on a free market. It is also a statement about our purpose. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
482
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 12:33:00 -
[114] - Quote
It's worth pointing out that I mentioned Ishukone sold at a discount because of the sheer bulk of product Holders were willing to buy, not because they own slaves. There's a distinct difference in intent.
Yes, I suppose in your eyes it is still damning, but do not mistake those bulk sales as anything more than simple business. Ishukone didn't sell the TCMCs because they want to see your brethren in slavery. Ishukone sold TCMCs because it doesn't care. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
627
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 12:54:00 -
[115] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:but how does that mean we should ignore the fact that as long as it can be made profitable, the Enemy is still who Ishkone sides with? This is what concerns me. I think you're misunderstanding business and sales as 'picking a side' in your war. What worries me is that you seem to misunderstand business and sales as absoliving you from responsibility.
It doesn't.
Your choices matter, and what and how you sell affects your further sales. If you sell fedo feeces as chocolate once, people will stop buying your stuff, even if you didn't sell Fedo Chocolate directly to them. That's what Free Market means: If people do not like what you do, they stop buying from you. You then have to think about how to handle this. You either change your sales strategy, or you deal with the consequences. Complaining that the market doesn't do what you want it to do shows a serious misunderstanding of what a "free market" means.
Selling TCMS at discount to Amarrian Holders was/is a serious marketing screw-up for the Matari market. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
482
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:10:00 -
[116] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:but how does that mean we should ignore the fact that as long as it can be made profitable, the Enemy is still who Ishkone sides with? This is what concerns me. I think you're misunderstanding business and sales as 'picking a side' in your war. What worries me is that you seem to misunderstand business and sales as absoliving you from responsibility. It doesn't. Your choices matter, and what and how you sell affects your further sales. If you sell fedo feeces as chocolate once, people will stop buying your stuff, even if you didn't sell Fedo Chocolate directly to them. That's what Free Market means: If people do not like what you do, they stop buying from you. You then have to think about how to handle this. You either change your sales strategy, or you deal with the consequences. Complaining that the market doesn't do what you want it to do shows a serious misunderstanding of what a "free market" means. Selling TCMS at discount to Amarrian Holders was/is a serious marketing screw-up for the Matari market.
I never mentioned my definition of 'free-market' nor have I complained anything of the sort. However, since everyone seems to be tossing around half baked definitions of the term, I'll take a moment to correct some of you.
Your understanding of Free-Market is incomplete at best, flawed at worst. Yes, it also means you are free to choose not to buy from who you don't want to, but that isn't the true definition of the term. In fact, the true definition of the term refers to a market where prices are determined by supply and demand.
Yes, supply and demand. Just like the supply and demand regarding TCMCs. There was a demand in a certain market, and we adjusted prices as part of good business sense. There was no regulation or impediment to our selling into a market known to be tainted with slavery. Sorry, but that's the reality of Free-Market economy.
Furthermore, your Fedo analogy is poor. There was nothing deceptive or underhanded about Ishukone's TCMC sales. Comparing it to selling ***** as chocolate is ridiculous at best. Please do not insult my intelligence by comparing the two. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
270
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:20:00 -
[117] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:but how does that mean we should ignore the fact that as long as it can be made profitable, the Enemy is still who Ishkone sides with? This is what concerns me. I think you're misunderstanding business and sales as 'picking a side' in your war. What worries me is that you seem to misunderstand business and sales as absoliving you from responsibility. It doesn't. Your choices matter, and what and how you sell affects your further sales. If you sell fedo feeces as chocolate once, people will stop buying your stuff, even if you didn't sell Fedo Chocolate directly to them. That's what Free Market means: If people do not like what you do, they stop buying from you. You then have to think about how to handle this. You either change your sales strategy, or you deal with the consequences. Complaining that the market doesn't do what you want it to do shows a serious misunderstanding of what a "free market" means. Selling TCMS at discount to Amarrian Holders was/is a serious marketing screw-up for the Matari market.
I am not sure what you are trying to prove here.
Some of their clientele do not like what they sell, when other ones actually like it to the point they buy it in masse. Why would Ishukone change its sale strategy ? Either they stop selling to Khanid Holders (and at a lesser extent to Amarrian Holders), and a new Minmatar market will open to them, or either they continue selling to Holders and very few Minmatar markets will remain open to them.
For a Caldari mindset, the choice is not very hard. In the first case they tell one of their clients that they are going to stop selling to them, while in the second case they remain open to both sides and can actually point out that it is not them that refused to sell to Minmatar markets, but that said Minmatar markets actually choosed not to buy from them. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
482
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:23:00 -
[118] - Quote
It's also amusing that only the militant Capsuleer organizations have spoken up in this thread. |
Vechtor
DuPont Enterprises Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
14
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Posted - 2012.05.05 14:08:00 -
[119] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:It's also amusing that only the militant Capsuleer organizations have spoken up in this thread.
I wouldnGÇÖt expect any different. My past living in Minmatar space showed me two things about the Matari people: 1) They follow an intense, very strong, self determination philosophy that is unmatched anywhere in New Eden, even where this self determination philosophy is mostly desirable; 2) They are, by birth, very resolute on their beliefs. Probably because of the need to secure their own culture even being constantly menaced by the Amarr with the risk of seeing their culture get lost. The Matari, because of that, tend to be "stubborn" on several aspects, for the good, and for the bad.
I have good memories from the time I lived at Elgoi, Eram, and Anstard, helping to boost Metropolis minerals markets to a very satisfactory level (I dare to say that the amount of Omber our corporation sold and traded there was unprecedented). I happened to meet several interesting people, people I still relate today. I worked a lot for Eifyr and Co., a company I have on high esteem (and I hope the feeling is mutual on their ranks). Was also in that time my standings towards the Amarr dropped somewhat for obvious reasons, with countless Amarr battleships succumbing to the power of my Dominix and its army of Ogres...
One thing I learned with the Matari, among many others, is that you won't get very far stating to them they can be "replaceable". ThatGÇÖs what I told John earlier in this thread and that also served to Valdezi making fun... Matari don't work that way. They follow an honor code and they have the ultimate respect for people who respect that honor code, which is very similar to all tribes despite their tribal cultural differences. In order to do business with the Matari, you'll have to learn how they think, respect that line of thinking, and show them you respect that line of thinking...
The problem persists: dealing with I-RED can lead to further economic expansion, but also strengthen one of the pillars of the Caldari State, which is Ishukone. You haven't offered ways to deal with this paradox so far... so why criticize the Matari militant corporations for that matter?
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
287
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 14:18:00 -
[120] - Quote
By calling EM "militant" you make the standard capsuleer mistake where you think "militant" and "industrial" are mutually exclusive.
This is not the case.
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