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Erialor Godsent
Gallente Federal Navy Support Divison
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Posted - 2009.04.08 11:16:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Erialor Godsent on 08/04/2009 11:18:12 Fixed up a typo + first (on p3 that is)
Just wanted to pop in and say that 24hrs is plenty....
For new players it lets them train all the short skills during night w/o them having to get up every 2 hrs to switch (and remember, you can always put a long skill at the end of the queue)
And for the older players it gives us a nice 24hrs window to login and queue up the next skill, instead of having to switch between multiple skills each time you logoff to avoid losing training time :D
It's a Win-Win imho --
Get Your Crumplecorn signature here. |
Focum Furia
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Posted - 2009.04.08 13:47:00 -
[62]
24 hours is more than enough. This very thread is the main reason why CCP was reluctant to add the queue. As soon as it was added, they knew people would just keep asking for more and more time. A 12 hour queue would have been sufficient, but really you don't need a queue unless you are trying to get from A to B as quickly as possible. Short skills when you are online, long skills when you are not got the job done.
The best use I've found for the queue has been for switching skills while pvping without risking your ship to multitasking. That, and it makes the game easier to get into, because practical long skills are not as available at character creation.
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Binah Sephirot
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.10 14:06:00 -
[63]
I think the skill queue is great, and it's a big help.
But the 24 hour time limitation is not intuitive. It's not a time queue. It's a skill queue. So why does it have to be limited by time? Why not say you can queue up for example 8 skills, regardless of how long they go for.
Just a thought. Still limiting the amount of training you can do, but it keeps it useful for new people and the ones who have only 24 hour + skills to train in their plans.
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4 LOM
United Gamers
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Posted - 2009.04.10 16:36:00 -
[64]
Wow, what is wrong with you people..
24h skill queen is awsome, any bigger is unecissary if you are goin to be gone for more then a few days just put a big skill at the end... everyone has big skills they want trained.
I went away last summer for 4 weeks, and had a my wedding a week before that so was very busy yet i missed no training and got some big skills done that i wanted.
If you cant make it work with a 24h skill what is wrong with you? trying to train every single skill to level 3? or something stupid like that.
Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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Shar Antria
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Posted - 2009.04.10 16:48:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Shar Antria on 10/04/2009 16:48:06 I have all of my skills almost at level three or higher, causing every skill's training time to go above 24 hours. Now that that has occurred, I realize that the queue is becoming less useful. It does help you plan things out quite a bit. My proposal is to offer some basic fractions of skills to complete, so if I want to train something halfway, I can, for instance.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.04.10 16:58:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Shar Antria I have all of my skills almost at level three or higher, causing every skill's training time to go above 24 hours. Now that that has occurred, I realize that the queue is becoming less useful.
How so? It's still very useful for never missing a skill change and not having to log in at strange time or juggling a bunch of half-finished skills back and forth to make them fit your real-life schedule. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Necromalis
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Posted - 2009.04.10 17:22:00 -
[67]
Unlimited? why?
Oh because, you've got less then 4 mill sp?
Seriously, when all of your skills take 8days to 45days...
You really don't mind a 24 queue.
Really? You knew your career, or kid raising would pull you away GREAT time to do caldari battleship 5, or cruise missle 5.Even if they don't finish then go back to normal training, in the end it helps you 24 hours for when your on.
What else do you want? Skills to take less then 10 hours? Free isk everytime you die? for realz?
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Lombax
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Posted - 2009.04.10 18:55:00 -
[68]
What I was thinking about, CCP should let you have let's say a month or month and a half skillqueue once per year, just like the attribute remapping. The one month long skill, for let's say summer holiday, where I infact don't play EVE for about a month. Last summer I asked someone from my corp to watch for my account/skills, but not everyone know's or trusts people like that.
So I personally think this is a great idea/suggestion. Agree or disagree with me, I don't care! :D
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FOl2TY8
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.04.10 21:15:00 -
[69]
Eve is a game where we don't have to grind for skill points, now you don't even want to logon to get skill points. Although it would be nice I guess to not have to change skills there isn't much point.
If they released an unlimited skill queue people would just post default skill queue's for everything and then all the stupid people wouldn't have to think about the direction of their charect.... oh wait. NOW I see why you want an unlimited skill queue. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve |
Angelos
Gateway Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.11 04:00:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Necromalis
Seriously, when all of your skills take 8days to 45days...
You really don't mind a 24 queue.
Because it doesn't help whatsoever? You guys really do an awesome job at proving exactly why the queue should be longer. Right now the queue is only useful to new characters training lots of quick skills, while older characters have zero use for it. It gives only a grace period to change your skills from one long skill to the next, and sucks a LOT when you are training lots of 1d3h skills... Some of us don't login every day.
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Angelos
Gateway Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.11 04:02:00 -
[71]
Originally by: FOl2TY8 Eve is a game where we don't have to grind for skill points, now you don't even want to logon to get skill points. Although it would be nice I guess to not have to change skills there isn't much point.
If they released an unlimited skill queue people would just post default skill queue's for everything and then all the stupid people wouldn't have to think about the direction of their charect.... oh wait. NOW I see why you want an unlimited skill queue.
Skill queue has absolutely nothing to do with that. People already make skill plans thanks to programs like EVEMON. Anyone who wants to be cookie-cutter already has the resources to do that. Upping the skill queue hurts NOBODY, and helps EVERYONE.
Lack of skill queue was a negative thing. A 24h queue is a positive thing. A longer queue is still going in a positive direction. Why would people be opposed to something that does zero harm and will help lots of people?
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Binah Sephirot
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.11 04:14:00 -
[72]
Changing the length of time you're allowed to queue up skills for won't fix any problems, if there are any, with the skill queue.
I'm largely fine with how it's implemented right now, but that's partially because I'm new to the game and I still have a lot of short skills. But I can see an issue with the times when I want to train multiple long skills. either so I don't forget what direction I'm going in, or just because I'm working out my plan NOW and I want to queue up say 3 or 4 multi day skills.
I think making the queue work of X number of skills, regardless of time, That might work better, and provide a relatively even worth for people who are new and old. If you can queue up 8 skills, even someone with 100 million skill points would be able to make as much use of it, though with much less turn around, as someone with 1 million.
Now, that's if we agree that there is something wrong with the current skill queue (and CCP agrees with us) And that is unlikely. Which I'm not too broken up about because like I said, I'm happy with how it works now as well.
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Agent Known
Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.04.11 05:39:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Necromalis
What else do you want? Skills to take less then 10 hours? Free isk everytime you die? for realz?
You actually get ~4ISK every time your ship pops and you get a rookie ship (oh, and the default insurance).
Tbh, not everything can be made to cater to everyone. T3 is unreachable for a newbie right off (well, nearly anyone atm), and the skill queue doesn't help older players. It's the facts of life: you can't please everyone.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.04.11 07:48:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Angelos sucks a LOT when you are training lots of 1d3h skills... Some of us don't login every day.
I answered that in the first reply of this thread. Bringing it up again shows you're not interested in a discussion but rather in whining.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.04.11 08:12:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Angelos Right now the queue is only useful to new characters training lots of quick skills, while older characters have zero use for it.
…and as shown in the thread, this is not correct. It has the same use as for everyone: it allows you not to worry about being online at the right time and day to change your skills. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.11 08:22:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Malcanis on 11/04/2009 08:21:48
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Angelos Right now the queue is only useful to new characters training lots of quick skills, while older characters have zero use for it.
àand as shown in the thread, this is not correct. It has the same use as for everyone: it allows you not to worry about being online at the right time and day to change your skills.
Exactly; it's fantastically convenient. BS 4 finishes at 4AM? Fine, I add BS 5 to the queue at any time up to 24H before this. No mess no fuss, no stupid skills with 4H 12M left to train.
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Aspire Academy
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Posted - 2009.04.12 05:27:00 -
[77]
Originally by: FOl2TY8 Eve is a game where we don't have to grind for skill points, now you don't even want to logon to get skill points.
Hell, I don't even want to turn on my computer to get skill points...lol
Makes you wonder if anything makes people happy. It's all good to me...
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Pesets
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Posted - 2009.04.12 09:28:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Pesets on 12/04/2009 09:29:36
Originally by: FOl2TY8 Eve is a game where we don't have to grind for skill points, now you don't even want to logon to get skill points. Although it would be nice I guess to not have to change skills there isn't much point.
If they released an unlimited skill queue people would just post default skill queue's for everything and then all the stupid people wouldn't have to think about the direction of their charect.... oh wait. NOW I see why you want an unlimited skill queue.
I'm going off on a tangent rant, but I never cease to be amazed how supportive and even insistent CCP customers are about NOT improving usability of their product... I wish our customers had that attitude of "I have no problem with the way it is right now, therefore anyone who does should go eat asterisks".
Especially cute is this elitist notion of "you should go to WoW if EVE is too hard for you". I mean, realistically, the parts of EVE that are "hard" are "hard to tolerate" (i.e. annoying) rather than "hard to comprehend" (i.e. too complex to understand). People are so proud about the famous "EVE learning cliff", as it implies you must be oh so smart if you can handle it. In fact, the hardest part is in getting reliable information on how the game works (because in-game help is far from optimal); once you have that, the concepts themselves are actually pretty straightforward.
It really won't make it any easier for stupid people to not think if the queue is made unlimited. It will just make them waste slightly less time - and pay longer for subscription before they take the ubertrained character into combat, get pwned because of not knowing the game mechanics, and ragequit. What it would do is enable the people who, for whatever reasons, cannot login for more than 24 hours, to still be in control of their game. I would hate to have to train those 1d8h skills one hour at a time for weeks just so at some point there's less than 24 hours of the skill left, and I can stick what's left of Battleship V behind it.
I also find it quite annoying to be forced to train a long V skill if I want to take a vacation for any significant length of time. I'm especially annoyed because lvl 5 skills that are long enough are for larger ships... I don't want to fly battleships at all for a while, much less train them to V because otherwise the training time will be wasted. Ok, there might be other skills about as long, but the practicality of training them to V is also questionable - unless you have no other choice because you won't be able to switch skills for a while. And to even be able to train them to V you need to first train them to IV - which by itself will take about a week or more. So you need to waste a week training a skill you don't really need just so that you don't completely waste a month if you have to take a break for a while. But doing something about it would probably rid EVE playerbase of too much suffering.
Back to the topic, Shar Antria's suggestion about being able to queue skills partially is really nice. Or at least, to have a way to set a skill that will train 24 hours from the moment you log out - pausing any skill that is training at that moment.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.04.12 10:11:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Pesets What it would do is enable the people who, for whatever reasons, cannot login for more than 24 hours, to still be in control of their game. I would hate to have to train those 1d8h skills one hour at a time for weeks just so at some point there's less than 24 hours of the skill left, and I can stick what's left of Battleship V behind it.
I'm a nice guy, I don't mind repeating what I said before.
Originally by: Estel Arador I answered that in the first reply of this thread. Bringing it up again shows you're not interested in a discussion but rather in whining.
(Note that was in reply to someone else, but it applies to you just the same.)
Originally by: Pesets I also find it quite annoying to be forced to train a long V skill if I want to take a vacation for any significant length of time. I'm especially annoyed because lvl 5 skills that are long enough are for larger ships
Try T2 frigates/cruisers/weapons/drones, advanced industrial/researching/support skills.
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Bailan Markusson
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Posted - 2009.04.12 14:13:00 -
[80]
The only thing i needed that training queue for was to get all those annoying 2 to 8 hour skills trained up. Should have been a one week special.
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Pesets
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Posted - 2009.04.13 10:44:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Estel Arador I answered that in the first reply of this thread. Bringing it up again shows you're not interested in a discussion but rather in whining.
(Note that was in reply to someone else, but it applies to you just the same.)
Note that your solution implies that every day you have a bunch of shorter skills to make a one-day queue. Also note that people normally train shorter skills first, because you normally get a lot more use out of a whole bunch of skills trained to II or III than out of one trained to IV or V. As a matter of fact, I pretty much ran out of shorter-than-a-day skills within a week of queue's introduction.
Originally by: Estel Arador Try T2 frigates/cruisers/weapons/drones, advanced industrial/researching/support skills.
That's beside the point. In the time it takes to train a skill to V, you can train four skills of the same rank to IV. And if I indeed want to train something like cruiser V - I want to train it now, not have to save it for later when I go out on a month hiatus.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:06:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Pesets Note that your solution implies that every day you have a bunch of shorter skills to make a one-day queue.
No. His solution only implies that you have a long skill that you can stick at the end of the queue — if "the end" happens to beging a t=0, the solution is still the same.
Quote: That's beside the point.
No. That is exactly the point: if you need a long skill to train, there are tons of them without ever crossing over the battleship bridge. Your choice not to use those skills is beside the point. Just because you don't want to use the solution doesn't mean it doesn't exist. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:12:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Pesets Note that your solution implies that every day you have a bunch of shorter skills to make a one-day queue. Also note that people normally train shorter skills first, because you normally get a lot more use out of a whole bunch of skills trained to II or III than out of one trained to IV or V. As a matter of fact, I pretty much ran out of shorter-than-a-day skills within a week of queue's introduction.
If you're out of short skills why are you complaining you have to train long skills? If you absolutely don't have any skills shorter than 24 hours, there are 2 options open to you: (1) get access to new skills (2) do it the 'old' way - lots of people managed to train plenty of 1 day+ skills without a 24 hour skill queue, I'm sure you can manage too.
Originally by: Pesets
Originally by: Estel Arador Try T2 frigates/cruisers/weapons/drones, advanced industrial/researching/support skills.
That's beside the point.
No it's not besides the point. You were complaining you didn't want to train BS V because you'll never need/want it. There's a whole host of other skills you can train to V which might be useful to you.
Originally by: Pesets In the time it takes to train a skill to V, you can train four skills of the same rank to IV.
You can't if you can't log in
Originally by: Pesets And if I indeed want to train something like cruiser V - I want to train it now, not have to save it for later when I go out on a month hiatus.
Your whole argument is based on "I want this and I want that" and you're refusing to even adjust your plans a little bit to fit game mechanics - instead, game mechanics have to be adjusted to fit you. That's laughable! And even if you train cruiser V now, there are 3 other cruiser V's to train; there's plenty of skills available.
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Pesets
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:20:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tippia No. His solution only implies that you have a long skill that you can stick at the end of the queue ù if "the end" happens to beging a t=0, the solution is still the same.
I can only stick something at the end of the queue if the queue is shorter than 24 hours. If the shortest skill I have available for training is 32 hours long, and I can only log in once in 48 hours, I cannot train those skills without losing 16 hours every time.
Originally by: Tippia Your choice not to use those skills is beside the point. Just because you don't want to use the solution doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The problem is that I cannot use my time efficiently in this situation. Having to train a long skill because you have no choice is not "the solution". It's just a way to get at least some use out of that time.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:34:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Pesets I can only stick something at the end of the queue if the queue is shorter than 24 hours. If the shortest skill I have available for training is 32 hours long, and I can only log in once in 48 hours, I cannot train those skills without losing 16 hours every time.
Yes, and? You can still stick a long skill at the end of the queue — it's just that nothing will sit in the queue before that long skill.
Quote: The problem is that I cannot use my time efficiently in this situation.
Yes you can. Your problem is that you cannot use your time exactly the way you want it in this situation. The training is no less efficient, but that's a different matter from being focused on exactly what you want. The solution is and remains "train a long skill", and has worked just fine for the last six years. Whether or not to make use of that solution is your choice. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Pesets
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:54:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Estel Arador If you're out of short skills why are you complaining you have to train long skills?
Just as a reminder of what we are arguing about. First, there is a situation where a person can only log in every other day. Secondly, there is a problem that there are people who leave for extended vacations/military duty/get screwed over by a patch - and they have to train some ultra long skills they would never train otherwise. Neither of these currently applies to me.
Originally by: Estel Arador If you absolutely don't have any skills shorter than 24 hours, there are 2 options open to you: (1) get access to new skills (2) do it the 'old' way - lots of people managed to train plenty of 1 day+ skills without a 24 hour skill queue, I'm sure you can manage too.
We are talking about the people who cannot. Of course in the end it is up to CCP to decide whether they want such people as customers - although something tells me that people who cannot sit in front of their PC around the clock switching skills are also the ones who are more likely to pay for the game with real money as opposed to in-game isk.
Originally by: Estel Arador No it's not besides the point. You were complaining you didn't want to train BS V because you'll never need/want it. There's a whole host of other skills you can train to V which might be useful to you.
If it is useful, I will train it as soon as I can. Why am I supposed to be forced into not training a useful skill when I need it, but instead at some later point of time when I have a vacation?
Originally by: Estel Arador You can't if you can't log in
Which is exactly what I'm not happy about. I believe that customers should not be punished for having a little bit of life outside EVE.
Originally by: Estel Arador Your whole argument is based on "I want this and I want that" and you're refusing to even adjust your plans a little bit to fit game mechanics - instead, game mechanics have to be adjusted to fit you. That's laughable!
Laughable as it may seem, I do not intend to adjust my real life to fit internet spaceships. I do not see skill queue restriction as part of game mechanics. In fact, I see it as means for some players to get unfair advantage over other players. It seems to be explained as a security measure, but I fail to understand what exactly is it intended to prevent that is not already possible anyways.
I also do not see EVE training system (including the queue) as some kind of a godsend token of mercy from the game developers. I see it as a tool to make the game more appealing to a certain target audience. It is one of the things that makes a lot of people care to play this game at all. As such, it fails in some important cases, and that is being pointed out in this thread. And I don't find "shut up and play it just like others do" to be a constructive stance in this case.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.04.13 12:43:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Pesets Just as a reminder of what we are arguing about. First, there is a situation where a person can only log in every other day.
…and no amount of rejiggering with the queue length with fix this problem. If you want a queue time length of anything other than infinity, you will have the same situation with some subset of skills, and no matter what, that problem will be minuscule.
You're arguing about skills that are longer than the current 24h queue and which could be fixed with a 48h queue. This category contains Rank 2, lvl IV and rank 8,9 and 10 lvl III skills. And that's about it. You have tons of choices of skills and levels that are either less than 24h (and can therefore be put before something else) or longer than 48h (and which therefore solve your perceived problem on their own).
Quote: Of course in the end it is up to CCP to decide whether they want such people as customers - although something tells me that people who cannot sit in front of their PC around the clock switching skills are also the ones who are more likely to pay for the game with real money as opposed to in-game isk.
Non sequitur, specious and irrelevant. The skill queue, in its current form, solves exactly this problem: you no longer have to sit in front of the PC around the clock to watch your skills — you can switch them at your leisure.
Quote: I cannot stick anything at the end of the queue if the queue consists of one skill that finishes past the 24 hour mark.
Yes you can. Remove the one that's just over 24h long and stick your long skill in there instead (and as shown above, the only skilsl that would cause this problem are rank 2 skills you want to train to IV or rank 8/9/10 skills you want to train to III — there are plenty more to choose from). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Angelos
Gateway Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.14 03:20:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Angelos sucks a LOT when you are training lots of 1d3h skills... Some of us don't login every day.
I answered that in the first reply of this thread. Bringing it up again shows you're not interested in a discussion but rather in whining.
The only thing that was brought up was the same solution we were using before the skill queue. The point is the skill queue is pointless at 24h for anyone training skills that take longer than that. I have dozens of skills I need to train that have no use for the queue, thus eliminating the whole entire point of it.
Since your reading comprehension is FAIL, I'll summarize. Skill queue is useless if it is only 24 hours. To be useful, it needs to be longer. There is ZERO reason to not make it longer, all your arguements are moot. Just because you think it is fine doesn't mean it's fine for everyone, and there is ZERO penalty for a longer queue.
If you want to argue against it, you absolutely MUST offer an actual arguement that states any penalty for it being longer. Which none of you have done. CCP's arguement is an assumption that is wrong.
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Angelos
Gateway Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.14 03:22:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Bailan Markusson The only thing i needed that training queue for was to get all those annoying 2 to 8 hour skills trained up. Should have been a one week special.
Exactly. It has run it's course for me.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.04.14 05:27:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Tippia on 14/04/2009 05:30:53
Originally by: Angelos The point is the skill queue is pointless at 24h for anyone training skills that take longer than that.
This is incorrect. I'm currently looking at a queue that's 18h into its 4+ day run. Instead of being online at exactly 19.53 on friday, I can now choose to log in and extend that queue at any point from thursday evening and onwards and at that time, I think I'll add another 4-day skill to the queue. Since I intend to be out at that time on friday, this makes the queue very useful.
Quote: Skill queue is useless if it is only 24 hours. To be useful, it needs to be longer.
Read the thread. People are finding it plenty useful as it is since it solves the problem it's meant to solve very well. If you can't use it properly, then that's your problem — not a problem with the queue.
Quote: There is ZERO reason to not make it longer, all your arguements are moot.
Just saying it doesn't make it so. You need to actually prove it as well, you know… Now what's your argument for making it longer (and "I don't know how to use it" doesn't count)?
Quote: there is ZERO penalty for a longer queue.
This is incorrect. Read the thread.
Quote: If you want to argue against it, you absolutely MUST offer an actual arguement that states any penalty for it being longer. Which none of you have done
This is incorrect. Read the thread.
Quote: CCP's arguement is an assumption that is wrong.
How so? Prove it. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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