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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2009.04.02 09:02:00 -
[1]
In our recent changes to speed we made some agility changes, the changes that were meant to make acceleration and maneuverability feel better had an unwanted side effect. It became too hard to target lock ships before they aligned and warped off. We've done some tweaks to agility, reverting smaller ships back to their original form and reducing the agility boost on larger ships.
We're going to have these changes running on Singularity and see how things turn out. The changes are authored directly onto Singularity and therefore easy to revert at any time.
Original Agility Change:
All ships * 0.7
Changes running on Singularity now (based of values pre-boost):
Frigates * 1.0 Destroyers * 0.85 Cruisers * 0.9 Battle Cruisers * 0.9 Battle Ships * 0.9
Feedback on these changes would be greatly appreciated, like I mentioned before the changes are made directly onto Singularity and therefore very easy to modify.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.04.02 09:17:00 -
[2]
What about Transports, Industrials, Mining Barges, Exhumers? |
Kateryne
Minmatar Nisaba Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.04.02 09:19:00 -
[3]
Yeah i'm guessing this is across the board and not just sub-capital combat vessels? |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.04.02 09:30:00 -
[4]
I'd just like to point out that I can now say.
I told you so
I posted it when they posted about the agility changes.
Obviously now since you are reversing the agility changes. Blaster boats are hurt fairly badly again. So what's changing to unnerf blasterboats? |
Marconus Orion
Amarr Astroglide X The Foray Project
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Posted - 2009.04.02 09:42:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jason Edwards I'd just like to point out that I can now say.
I told you so
I posted it when they posted about the agility changes.
Obviously now since you are reversing the agility changes. Blaster boats are hurt fairly badly again. So what's changing to unnerf blasterboats?
Are you on crack or something? This change will HELP blaster boats. I mean what do you want exactly?
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Miyamoto Shigesuke
Jugis Modo Utopia Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.04.02 09:51:00 -
[6]
Could you elaborate, how this is helping the blaster boats?
They need stronger webs, better tracking and higher speed to be usable...
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Kateryne
Minmatar Nisaba Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.04.02 09:53:00 -
[7]
The change means ships align slower in general, so you have longer to tackle/move in on them, thus the point blank range blaster boats have gotten a few more seconds of lovin!
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Alexia Diana
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:05:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kateryne The change means ships align slower in general, so you have longer to tackle/move in on them, thus the point blank range blaster boats have gotten a few more seconds of lovin!
That's true, but only if you're landing right over your unsuspecting target. On the other hand, for most situations, this change is nerfing the blasterboats.
Well, it seems that we're back to "sit at the gate with jaws open wide" creative style of play.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:11:00 -
[9]
agility has an influence on many things. but you're targeting only one of these: warp.
since you obviously didnt read the ole' player thread about this topic, let me say it again: increase warp threshold from 75 or 80% (i honestly dont know what speeds are required today) by no more than 5%
-> acceleration and maneuverabilty still feels better, current orbits can be maintained and for once you will have managed to surgically tackle the actual problem. (and it can't be any harder to modify than the agility factors of every ship size)
agility changes will lead to necessary changes to tracking, explosion velocity and targeting range on some frigs, just to name a few
okok im slightly exaggerating. but stick to the issue for once - putting the gist back into logistics |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:17:00 -
[10]
I just tried the new agility changes on SISI. Totally screws up blaster ships again.
Just change the warp speed threshold to 85% of max speed instead of the current 75%. That will increase the time to warp without changing any other balance. Super simple and elegant solution to the problem.
Any other change in any other direction will only screw up on particular performance metric or another. Messing with agility and lock speeds and so on has too many knock on effects during normal PVP. The warp speed threshold affects a single thing: time to warp, and that's it.
Now that this problem is solved, let's move on to more important things.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Winterreign
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:28:00 -
[11]
Perhaps i have my math backwards
But all agility was based upon original agility changes. which *o.7
Does the lower agility = faster align time? Or Does the higher agility = Faster align time?
You mentioned reducing agility so i assume that the the lower the agility the more "Agile" a ship is.
As if everything was 0.7
Then Frigates are 30% less agile Destoyers 15% less agile and cruisers, BC, and battleshipes 20% less agile.
Correct? Other wise it looks as if u gave all the ships MORE agility. -W
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:35:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Winterreign Perhaps i have my math backwards
But all agility was based upon original agility changes. which *o.7
Does the lower agility = faster align time? Or Does the higher agility = Faster align time?
You mentioned reducing agility so i assume that the the lower the agility the more "Agile" a ship is.
As if everything was 0.7
Then Frigates are 30% less agile Destoyers 15% less agile and cruisers, BC, and battleshipes 20% less agile.
Correct? Other wise it looks as if u gave all the ships MORE agility. -W
Think of it as an inertia modifier.
Simply put: if the original values were 1, the new inertia is 70% of the original- 30% reduction, meaning the ships can get to a particular speed 30% faster, and the *latest* SISI values are closer to 90% of the original pre-QR values.
All of this inertia modifier stuff is crap however. All that needs to be done is tweak each warp speed threshold to return the time to warp requirement for all ships to something equal or greater than pre-QR warp times.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:41:00 -
[13]
Quote: Are you on crack or something? This change will HELP blaster boats. I mean what do you want exactly?
No. The agility change was a response to boost blasterboats because they needed to gather speed in order to get on the target. Which was too slow after the speed nerf.
Now they are reversing this change. Leaving blasterboats in the SAME situation.
Quote: I just tried the new agility changes on SISI. Totally screws up blaster ships again.
No doubt.
Quote: Just change the warp speed threshold to 85% of max speed instead of the current 75%. That will increase the time to warp without changing any other balance. Super simple and elegant solution to the problem.
>Super simple and elegant >CCP
Quote: Any other change in any other direction will only screw up on particular performance metric or another. Messing with agility and lock speeds and so on has too many knock on effects during normal PVP. The warp speed threshold affects a single thing: time to warp, and that's it.
TBH speed threshold isnt the problem for me usually. It's aligning that takes longer. This fact is very pronounced in capships when the warp tube isnt even pointed where you are warping. Nor is the ship. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:41:00 -
[14]
What's wrong with either upping the warp speed % to warp (like bellum stated above) or increasing sensor resolution of ships?
I'm really liking these new Dev posts, keep up the great work. I am praying that the next once fixes regional gates to the size of normal gates :)
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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Shijima Nei
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Winterreign Perhaps i have my math backwards
But all agility was based upon original agility changes. which *o.7
Does the lower agility = faster align time? Or Does the higher agility = Faster align time?
You mentioned reducing agility so i assume that the the lower the agility the more "Agile" a ship is.
As if everything was 0.7
Then Frigates are 30% less agile Destoyers 15% less agile and cruisers, BC, and battleshipes 20% less agile.
Correct? Other wise it looks as if u gave all the ships MORE agility. -W
Think of it as an inertia modifier.
Simply put: if the original values were 1, the new inertia is 70% of the original- 30% reduction, meaning the ships can get to a particular speed 30% faster, and the *latest* SISI values are closer to 90% of the original pre-QR values.
All of this inertia modifier stuff is crap however. All that needs to be done is tweak each warp speed threshold to return the time to warp requirement for all ships to something equal or greater than pre-QR warp times.
should no by now CCP dnt like stuff they have to "look" into and work out they just like the simple easy to do ideas which is hit everythin hard and hope it works well
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:48:00 -
[16]
Quote: Perhaps i have my math backwards But all agility was based upon original agility changes. which *o.7 Does the lower agility = faster align time? Or Does the higher agility = Faster align time?
Ok agility does 2 things.
1. Align time 2. Acceleration
Essentially they boosted agility so blaster boats achieve higher speed faster. Thusly compensating for the less speed. Thusly there was no difference in the time it took to get 20km to start pew pewing.
Unintended thing is that ships suddenly can align and warp faster then they ought to. Thusly you cant catch people.
Proof of concept: the osprey; it can align and warp before pretty much anything can target it. We had a pos reinforced. I had to get osprey from highsec to 0.0. Vaga and assorted other ships chased me. Eventually getting to my destination and they wouldnt warp to the pos. Ironically they put 17 bubbles up on this one gate. Literally covered all possible angles you might get from dropping ss between ss. Finally got me tackled then using a sling.
Quote: Then Frigates are 30% less agile Destoyers 15% less agile and cruisers, BC, and battleshipes 20% less agile. Correct? Other wise it looks as if u gave all the ships MORE agility.
Indeed. They will take longer to accelerate and align. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Zamolxiss
Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus I just tried the new agility changes on SISI. Totally screws up blaster ships again.
Just change the warp speed threshold to 85% of max speed instead of the current 75%. That will increase the time to warp without changing any other balance. Super simple and elegant solution to the problem.
Any other change in any other direction will only screw up on particular performance metric or another. Messing with agility and lock speeds and so on has too many knock on effects during normal PVP. The warp speed threshold affects a single thing: time to warp, and that's it.
Now that this problem is solved, let's move on to more important things.
The man has a point Nozh.. the agility decress should affect only frigs, witch atm are invulnerable to larger targets, especialy BS's, when orbiting at point black, even under dual web effect..
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Nichola Kreed
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:50:00 -
[18]
damn it, another change that nerf solo and boost blob.
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Mohenna
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:50:00 -
[19]
:( everything that makes this game slower makes me sad.
This action is like admitting defeat to lag...
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Jalif
Minmatar Black Sinisters
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:51:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Jalif on 02/04/2009 10:51:46
Originally by: Nichola Kreed damn it, another change that nerf solo and boost blob.
thx for making the game worse.
|Black Sinisters| |
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Fossil Wolf
omen. Gay4Life
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:59:00 -
[21]
Am I right in thinking this will effect the top orbit speeds of ships as well as warp speeds?
Furthermore by continuing this discussion we detract from the real issue many of us are having with eve online, the lack of break between signature and post content. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:02:00 -
[22]
why not remove the whole speed to warp thing?
based it on something else.
Give every ship a time to warp thing, I don't see why it has to be tied into base speed.
you should have to line up, and need charge the warp drive, also starting warp could totaly stop you dead as far as speed goes.
Then the capitor read out would start filling up red, when it goes full red you hit warp speed.
then you could go into and use this as an excuse to change the way warp works, boosting time to get to full warp speed to be like, instant, and have the same same old slow slow down at the end.
So you hit still, and... BAM! warp drive active.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:04:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Fossil Wolf Am I right in thinking this will effect the top orbit speeds of ships as well as warp speeds?
Warp speed are fixed value per ship class. Can only be affected by rigs. -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Fossil Wolf
omen. Gay4Life
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Fossil Wolf Am I right in thinking this will effect the top orbit speeds of ships as well as warp speeds?
Warp speed are fixed value per ship class. Can only be affected by rigs.
Sorry, I didn't say that very well at all.. I meant warp align speed
Furthermore by continuing this discussion we detract from the real issue many of us are having with eve online, the lack of break between signature and post content. |
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:16:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus I just tried the new agility changes on SISI. Totally screws up blaster ships again.
Just change the warp speed threshold to 85% of max speed instead of the current 75%. That will increase the time to warp without changing any other balance. Super simple and elegant solution to the problem.
Any other change in any other direction will only screw up on particular performance metric or another. Messing with agility and lock speeds and so on has too many knock on effects during normal PVP. The warp speed threshold affects a single thing: time to warp, and that's it.
Now that this problem is solved, let's move on to more important things.
Unfortunately it's not that simple. The acceleration formula is based on mass and the agility modifier. Changing the warp speed threshold changes the balance between the classes drastically.
I'm going to try some new values later on today:
The main problem after the initial speed changes were cruiser/frigate sized ships, battleships don't need that much of a change.
New values: (not yet applied to Singularity)
Frigates: 1.0 Destroyers: 0.85 Cruisers: 0.9 Battlecruisers: 0.85 Battleships: 0.8
Nozh Game Designer CCP Games |
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Fossil Wolf
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Fossil Wolf Am I right in thinking this will effect the top orbit speeds of ships as well as warp speeds?
Warp speed are fixed value per ship class. Can only be affected by rigs.
Sorry, I didn't say that very well at all.. I meant warp align speed
Warp align TIME is a complex formula of your ship agility, mass and top speed. Factored by your initial state (were you flying in any direction or standing still, unaligned) -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Alex Medvedov
Minmatar Black Sinisters
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
The main problem after the initial speed changes were cruiser/frigate sized ships, battleships don't need that much of a change.
Dont take me wrong but arent Frigates supposed to be hard to catch? Whats the point of flying Frigates if they get their agility close to cruiser sized ships. I mean one of the most positive QR feature was in my opinion great agility buff to Assault Ships which improved their align times be in line with other frigs (not with Cruisers as it used to be) and i certainly dont think that the pre QR situation was better..
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Alex Medvedov
Originally by: CCP Nozh
The main problem after the initial speed changes were cruiser/frigate sized ships, battleships don't need that much of a change.
Dont take me wrong but arent Frigates supposed to be hard to catch? Whats the point of flying Frigates if they get their agility close to cruiser sized ships. I mean one of the most positive QR feature was in my opinion great agility buff to Assault Ships which improved their align times be in line with other frigs (not with Cruisers as it used to be) and i certainly dont think that the pre QR situation was better..
Assault ships / Frigates will still have the same agility ratio. The changes to assault ships were done prior to the original agility changes.
Nozh Game Designer CCP Games |
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua What about Transports, Industrials, Mining Barges, Exhumers?
Original changes were only done to combat ships. We didn't touch the agility of these ships in our agility changes.
Nozh Game Designer CCP Games |
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Garr Anders
Minmatar Thukk U
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua What about Transports, Industrials, Mining Barges, Exhumers?
I'd be very interested in an answere to this as well.
----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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