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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
BlackHorizon
Raype Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.02 21:28:00 -
[91]
Edited by: BlackHorizon on 02/04/2009 21:29:37 For those of you suggesting just increasing scan resolution on all ships, consider that these would have unintended consequences on the effectiveness of modules such sensor dampeners, warp core stabilizers and cloaks.
Increasing warp time is a better solution, but it must be done correctly and not arbitrarily.
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StinkRay
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Posted - 2009.04.02 21:41:00 -
[92]
Edited by: StinkRay on 02/04/2009 21:46:13 what I don't get is why there can't be a separate align time modifier?
If the problem lies with the align times then it's align time that you need to look at directly, and not indirectly through agility which affects a number of other things. Why make it over complicated?
If the reason is players should be able to influence their align time by increasing their agility... Sure.. But why not just instead make those mods/fits whatnot affect align time as well?
Please resize sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 and filesize no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Raimo
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.04.02 21:54:00 -
[93]
Originally by: BlackHorizon
I would suggest you listen to one of the previous posters and simply increase the warp time on ships independent of mass and agility, or wait until such a mechanic can be implemented/coded. If you don't have the resources to do this, please come up with a formula based on ship attributes such as sig radius instead of puling out of a hat class agility modifiers like "0.95".
The more I think about it the more I feel this is correct. The ship agilities should not be touched, they are perfect in combat now. (albeit boringly slow after the speed nerf but them's the breaks) IMO you need to be able to increase the warp time without increasing agilities. |
Dr Resheph
Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
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Posted - 2009.04.02 22:10:00 -
[94]
BC agility values are definitely too high on TQ today. 10% nerf seems fine.
25% nerf on cruisers (5% less from old values) though is gonna be felt on HACs. Can't say whether its bad or good atm.
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Galdornae
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.04.02 22:29:00 -
[95]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Nichola Kreed damn it, another change that nerf solo and boost blob.
Actually, the agility was preventing solo pvp as targets were able to warp out before getting scrambled.
WRONG Most ships are going to have no problem burning back to the gate when caught by a solo ship with fast enough lock time to catch them.
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.02 23:01:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Gekkoh I HATE gate camping. It's one of the worst aspects of Eve, in my opinion. It sucks if you're just trying to get somewhere, and it sucks for those who are forced to sit at a gate in order to find some PvP. I won't even go into the fact that HICs are vastly overpowered to come across while traveling.
Instead of forcing more of it on us, can't you think of a better design concept than enforcing "chokepoints in space" on us?
Also, I have to echo the comments about the new agility making the game seem faster. It was more fun to fly an agile ship, period. And now you're taking that away to appease gate campers and pirates who aren't able to achieve the element of surprise.
Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually have a coherent vision of where you want to take Eve, or an idea of what most of your subscribers actually do from day to day, because some of these changes appear to be randomly pulled out of a hat and/or directed to make a small minority happy.
I tend to criticize CCP decision making pretty bad. But this is definitely undeserved.
I don't want to derail this thread any more by trying to get thru your head how how wrong your entire of understanding of game theory is.
But I will say that I wish carebears like you were taken out and podded, repeatedly, until you quit the game or get smart
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.02 23:04:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Galdornae
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Nichola Kreed damn it, another change that nerf solo and boost blob.
Actually, the agility was preventing solo pvp as targets were able to warp out before getting scrambled.
WRONG Most ships are going to have no problem burning back to the gate when caught by a solo ship with fast enough lock time to catch them.
As a guy who scored at least 300 solo kills, I can say with certainty that restoring agility setting to pre-speed nerf setting will help solo and small scale pvp.
The people who burn back to the gate would do so less successfully than they do now, as it would take them longer to accelerate.
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burek
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2009.04.02 23:11:00 -
[98]
I don't see how anyone can view this as a solo nerf. It is a restoration of some grace to solo players that fly cruiser to BS hulls.
As a guy who was solo often and in tiny gangs (2-3) the silly agility change absolutely ruined PvP. When you can't lock same size targets (or bigger even), something is wrong. Maybe I'll actually log in to play instead of just change skills if CCP introduce this. |
Thenoran
Caldari Tranquility Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.02 23:19:00 -
[99]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Alex Medvedov
Originally by: CCP Nozh
The main problem after the initial speed changes were cruiser/frigate sized ships, battleships don't need that much of a change.
Dont take me wrong but arent Frigates supposed to be hard to catch? Whats the point of flying Frigates if they get their agility close to cruiser sized ships. I mean one of the most positive QR feature was in my opinion great agility buff to Assault Ships which improved their align times be in line with other frigs (not with Cruisers as it used to be) and i certainly dont think that the pre QR situation was better..
Assault ships / Frigates will still have the same agility ratio. The changes to assault ships were done prior to the original agility changes.
What about Stealth Bombers? In the SB thread, is it mentioned they get an agility boost, but will that be nullified by the 0.7 change or all T1/T2 frigates spared from agility reduction? ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.04.02 23:25:00 -
[100]
Why are people whining now when the original agility nerf was large, sweeping and in the extreme?
The changes Nozh's looking at reigns it back into some common sense and makes lowsec a bit more playable again.
Yet some of you are sounding like it's going to destroy Eve etc and we're messing with unknown evil forces!
These changes can't come soon enough, has been killing the joy out of some aspects of lowsec fighting.
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
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SecHaul
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Posted - 2009.04.02 23:36:00 -
[101]
Until CCP fix the MWD / Cloak / warp trick, which makes even battleships invulnerable to landing points, I don't see the point of tweaking align times. Let's be honest, those that want to avoid getting pointed still can.
Including several above that brag about solo kills and how this will assist them in catching targets. Fix both elements please.
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.02 23:48:00 -
[102]
Originally by: SecHaul Until CCP fix the MWD / Cloak / warp trick, which makes even battleships invulnerable to landing points, I don't see the point of tweaking align times. Let's be honest, those that want to avoid getting pointed still can.
Including several above that brag about solo kills and how this will assist them in catching targets. Fix both elements please.
MWD+cloak+warp trick is essential in allowing small scale pvp to exist for larger sized ships - such as battleships. Without it, there would be only 2 successful strategies: either bring a big blob, or wait at SS/POS until enemy leaves.
What what you rather have, a small chance to decloak and scramble someone in 10 seconds, or no chance at all because the enemy is sitting at SS? Not to mention that dictors and bubbles almost completely nullify this trick.
And frankly, this issue has nothing to do with current tweaks in agility. If you want to discuss it, start your own thread
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Aftenbar
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Posted - 2009.04.03 00:37:00 -
[103]
Hurrah. I am glad I didn't put the trimarks on the triple sensor boosting broadsword I had dreamed up to try to catch t1 cruisers while trying to gate camp......
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.04.03 00:45:00 -
[104]
Good changes on the whole. I'm hearing a lot of people whining about how it's death to solo pvp but I've no idea where that comes from. At the moment it's virtually impossible for a Cruiser to point another Cruiser before it enters warp which makes solo impossible. You need a dedicated tackler to catch things.
HACs will still easily be able to burn back to gates 99% of the time.
- Contagious - |
5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.04.03 01:29:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina Good changes on the whole. I'm hearing a lot of people whining about how it's death to solo pvp but I've no idea where that comes from. At the moment it's virtually impossible for a Cruiser to point another Cruiser before it enters warp which makes solo impossible. You need a dedicated tackler to catch things.
HACs will still easily be able to burn back to gates 99% of the time.
Oh please Cristina, shut up will you.
I'm either sick of seeing you articulate so smoothly what I sometimes see as a muddle in the back of my mind or sick of seeing you being entertaining and funny.
I don't like the fact I like you so much, its just weird and wrong.
Half my brain wants to make a forum signature dedicated to you and the other half is saying ARRRGH SHUTTUP.
P.S I read all your posts.
<3 <3 <3
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
prefectro
Minmatar Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.04.03 02:20:00 -
[106]
Edited by: prefectro on 03/04/2009 02:24:24 As a person who's entire eve life is centered around small gang PVP...
I can see this as a buff to low sec solo pvp, but not 0.0 where you have to deal with bubbles and fast locking inties. I barely make it back to the gate now in a vaga versus a medium sized gang (filled with sniper hacs). You nerf the agility and I don't know how on earth I am supposed to solo or roam in a small gang (2-3) if I will die as soon as I hit the first medium sized gang.
Is it possible to have a fix that helps locking for low sec pvp'ers while still giving the solo / small gang players in 0.0 the ability to roam and have a chance against blobs?
Also want to say I love this new way that CCP is introducing changes. We not only get to respond to ideas, but to see the original post updated due to player responses is heart warming.
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SecHaul
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Posted - 2009.04.03 02:34:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ephemeron And frankly, this issue has nothing to do with current tweaks in agility. If you want to discuss it, start your own thread
Then you are deluded. The whole issue of this thread and rebalancing is that you cannot catch ships of the equivalent size before they warp off. Align / MWD / Cloak / Insta-warp prevents interceptors from catching battleships, it's 100% directly related.
And cloak is not essential to small scale PvP, any more than logoff / logon games are. If you fix agility, all that will happen is 'solo' battleships fit a cloak and completely bypass the rebalancing anyway. Hence the reason behind 'small' gang warfare with frigs -> HACs.
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Letifer Deus
181st Legion W A S T E L A N D
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Posted - 2009.04.03 02:45:00 -
[108]
Originally by: SecHaul If you fix agility, all that will happen is 'solo' battleships fit a cloak and completely bypass the rebalancing anyway.
Yes, you're right. Because using a high, 60 cpu loss and losing 40% of your scan res leads to a great solo BS. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2009.04.03 02:54:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 03/04/2009 02:56:35
Originally by: CCP Nozh It became too hard to target lock ships before they aligned and warped off. We've done some tweaks to agility, reverting smaller ships back to their original form and reducing the agility boost on larger ships.
I'd like to see more of a discussion on that issue, rather than just tweaking and discussion of numbers.
Did it really?
Personally, i don't experience the ease of warping out - because i (we) catch people reasonably well on live (in 00 and lowsec). Sure, i have heard people complain about it from time to time, but that is just common disappointment when someone gets out (and rarely based on any situation when tackle have been conducted flawless). I hope that with reverting the agility, other balance issues are also taken into consideration - such as how ships with a high resolution or modules like remote sensor boosters, benefit from the current conditions.
Ships specialized into initial tackle within a gang, and group-support modules such as electronic remotes (despite their impopularity) make the game richer. Don't forget about them when you consider reverting the agility. Is it really too hard to land a tackle? or are people just being comfortable, ignoring the tools at hand, and eager to see better performance on ships with omni-setups? All honour to solo pilots and small wolfpack gangs, but i hope group dynamics is not set aside in favour of conserving those ideals in an MMO (i consider remote sensor boosters a far more interesting topic than the difficulty of landing a tackle in lowsec with just a HAC and a point).
I'd like to read a bit more about the motivation and objectives behind these changes. That would also help with target values when testing.
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Shinma Apollo
Shut Up And Play
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Posted - 2009.04.03 03:00:00 -
[110]
I'm in agreement with the initial purpose of the changes, and have voiced the need, but I think in some cases it should really be scrutinized before it goes live. cruiser v cruiser combat being possible? hell yes. But one of the problems is it does hinder solo play because players don't have the ability to disengage as easily given how much faster frigs' base speed is compared to cruisers. Maybe one way would be to nudge up the base speed of cruisers a slight bit.
Originally by: Shinma Apollo
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
Hey Mitnal, did I give the best excuse ever for a z0r chain when you gave me my last ban?
Let's not go near moderation discussion.
However, if t |
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.03 04:10:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Shinma Apollo I'm in agreement with the initial purpose of the changes, and have voiced the need, but I think in some cases it should really be scrutinized before it goes live. cruiser v cruiser combat being possible? hell yes. But one of the problems is it does hinder solo play because players don't have the ability to disengage as easily given how much faster frigs' base speed is compared to cruisers. Maybe one way would be to nudge up the base speed of cruisers a slight bit.
Another way to address this concern is to completely reverse all the changes in Great Speed Nerf
We had a working model, a good model that offered many opportunities and needed just slight tweaking for balance. But they trashed it
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.03 04:17:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Noisrevbus Did it really?
Personally, i don't experience the ease of warping out..
It did, my personal experience shows more people getting away, cruiser sized and battleship sized targets (frigs always get away even before this change).
I usually fly a combination of Stiletto for tackle, and a battleship for tank and gank. So I exerience pvp from both small tackler perspective and heavy hitter perspective
The agility change wasn't severe, it didn't totally ruin pvp - of course. We are talking about small effects here. But the point is that the effect, however small, was a negative one. We want a positive effect, just a small one. And that is being accomplished by the current agility tweaks.
It's really a no brainer to understand that if people are unable to tackle targets of their own ship sized - things they have a chance at killing, because of increased enemy agility, then you will have less pvp among those people - who don't fly big gank squads.
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McDaddy Pimp
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.04.03 04:20:00 -
[113]
Edited by: McDaddy Pimp on 03/04/2009 04:20:28 \o/ yay! Finally, something nice from CPP!. I don't really see whats all the whining about.. isn't CCP Nozh changing the agility back to pre-QR? Didn't heard ppl whining about their agility before that.. IMO, people whining about this agilty boost = carebares who only want consensual pvp I must admit though, i have no idea about maths/formula for warp time etc. But anything that make it easier to catch ships just encourage more pew pew, which is good no?
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.04.03 04:22:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Noisrevbus
I'd like to see more of a discussion on that issue, rather than just tweaking and discussion of numbers.
400+ replies Better start reading, noob.
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.04.03 04:39:00 -
[115]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Half my brain wants to make a forum signature dedicated to you and the other half is saying ARRRGH SHUTTUP.
P.S I read all your posts.
Umm thanks... I think...
- Contagious - |
prefectro
Minmatar Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.04.03 05:26:00 -
[116]
They did go a little too far with the speed nerf. If the agility reduction was coupled with an equal increase in speed then I think that would solve a lot of issues. You can still target ships warping from a gate, but give ships that little extra speed to get away from blobs and burn back to the gate.
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Carnelian X
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Posted - 2009.04.03 06:12:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
1. welcome back MWD cycle trick, makes agility on heavy plated/big ships nonrelevant
It never left.
Please Noaz - whilst agility changes are nice, can you look into the MWD cloak trick.
Agility is irrelevant - totally and utterly when I can cloak/mwd one of the biggest ships in the game (battleship) past the fastest tacklers in the game (sensor boosted inty) at will.
If you dont understand wht the mwd/cloak is I will be pleased to detail it for you
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Major Deviant
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Posted - 2009.04.03 06:54:00 -
[118]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Alex Medvedov
Originally by: CCP Nozh
The main problem after the initial speed changes were cruiser/frigate sized ships, battleships don't need that much of a change.
Dont take me wrong but arent Frigates supposed to be hard to catch? Whats the point of flying Frigates if they get their agility close to cruiser sized ships. I mean one of the most positive QR feature was in my opinion great agility buff to Assault Ships which improved their align times be in line with other frigs (not with Cruisers as it used to be) and i certainly dont think that the pre QR situation was better..
Assault ships / Frigates will still have the same agility ratio. The changes to assault ships were done prior to the original agility changes.
I am a little bit confused. Is frigate agility being changed? The first post is misleading:
Original Agility Change:
All ships * 0.7
Changes running on Singularity now (based of values pre-boost): ???
Frigates * 1.0 -> Does this mean that they remain as they are on TQ? Destroyers * 0.85 Cruisers * 0.9 Battle Cruisers * 0.9 Battle Ships * 0.9
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Raimo
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.04.03 07:38:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Raimo on 03/04/2009 07:43:02
Originally by: McDaddy Pimp
I don't really see whats all the whining about.. isn't CCP Nozh changing the agility back to pre-QR? Didn't heard ppl whining about their agility before that..
Pre-QR agilities were coupled with *significantly* better attainable top speeds (nano) so the situation with the proposed changes is vastly different...
Actually, there's a thought!
Originally by: prefectro They did go a little too far with the speed nerf. If the agility reduction was coupled with an equal increase in speed then I think that would solve a lot of issues. You can still target ships warping from a gate, but give ships that little extra speed to get away from blobs and burn back to the gate.
Indeed, how about doing the agility reduction like outlined in this thread but at the same time scaling max speeds up by the same percentage?
Also I'll go on an OT tangent but TBH I would love to see some of the nano nerf changes reversed, let us again attain more speed by clever fitting and pimping! Just make it much less efficient than it was pre-QR. Or how about reversing the web and scrams shutting down mwds change and instead give ABs a resistance against webs so that a webbed AB boat is faster than a webbed MWD boat?
Something that still gives a nich for AB fits but reverses the currently idiotic Scrams. Let solo close range pilots fit 24km points again and actually catch stuff, make solo tackling work again! (Needs the tackling/ agility/ time-to-warp changes discussed here to work ofc)
Hmm. Or keep the new webs (tho give Minnie Recons and EAS a slight Web strength role bonus ffs... No, I don't fly them personally) but create a new module that has both a 24km point and the scram MWD effect under 9k, but with only one point and significantly increased fitting requirements and/ or cap use? *That* would make solo med/ small blaster and AC boats shine again... And actually help large blaster pilots as well.
Well sorry for the OT, I can dream can't I. :P ---
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.04.03 08:20:00 -
[120]
Really happy you guys are addressing this as it has been a pain in the butt.
I prefered your original values - fix blaster boats as they need to be fixed not here. This is about the fundamental question of who can lock what. Locking people at gates took a battering with the agility changes and sitting watching BS's warp off from your BS is real frustrating. The changes hurt solo pvp and hurt small gang pvp.
In the past a sensor boosted BC could lock a Cruiser in time, a SB'd BS could lock a BC in time and each class could lock its' own class fast enough without a SB. Can we please go back to this.
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