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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
7
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Posted - 2012.05.03 00:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I realize there is already a team Super Friends feedback thread, however, the changes brought on by Team Super friends are extensive, and most of the thread is hereto date dedicated just to when Sisi will go live. As such, I feel its prudent to start a new thread for concise discussion.
As it stands, the Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II (henceforth EDA) is a 12% damage bonus for non-fighter drones, on a 40tf CPU module. This is, quite frankly, terrible. In fact, its so bad that I have to question if this is just a placeholder stat.
Your bog-standard T2 damage mod has two stats: 10% Damage Bonus 10.5% Rate of Fire Bonus
Combined, this results in a 22.9% damage increase *per* module. All turret modules cost 30CPU for their T2 variant, and the BCU's cost 40cpu for their T2 variant (presumably due to the higher than average CPU output of most missile boats).
Even worse, drone boats often come with the "drone-boat" tax. They have worse fittings, and fewer slots, than comparable non-drone vessels. This fitting tax insures that drone boats don't become OP killing machines with immense tanks and damage, but it also means they often wind up very tight on fittings. A 40cpu mod is absolutely ridiculous for most drone boats to try to squeeze on.
In other words, the EDA is terrible in two directions: 1) It provides half the damage bonus of regular damage modules 2) It costs 33% more fitting than standard damage modules, on top of the CPU limited nature of drone ships.
Perhaps the greatest insult, however, is that drones are already a low-damage platform. For all intents and purposes, drone damage caps out with the 50% hull bonus on Ogre IIs at 475 dps. For Ships like the Arbitrator line, that caps out with Hammerhead IIs at 238 dps. Even the standard 23% damage module may be too weak for them to work on these hulls as a competitive fitting option. We won't know until these are at least buffed to 23% and fits are played around with, but Domi's can do a *lot* more damage with guns than 475 dps. If we are to fit drone damage mods over regular old damage mods, they need to be pulling their weight in the opportunity-cost comparison.
To start balance testing, the EDA needs to be brought down to 30 CPU and 23% total DPS modifier. As it stands, the single 12% damage module will find use ONLY on ships with the following parameters:
1) Can deploy a full set of heavy or sentry drones 2) Cannot fit battleship class weapons
That limits the EDA's *entire* potential usefulness to select Ishtar and Gila fits, and maaaybe a few Domi's that completely forsake any turrets at all (such as ambulance, neut, or herd domis). Every other ship, including ships like the Curse, can get much better bang for their buck just fitting regular weapons (like Railguns or HMLs) and/or regular damage mods. |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
28
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Posted - 2012.05.03 00:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree. Other modules give 22.9% so drone amps should give more than 12%.
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Silly Slot
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
1
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Posted - 2012.05.03 00:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
not to mention as a gallante boat this will take an armor slot but thats ok if it was worth it, but fitting and bonus need work |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Narwhals Ate My Duck
86
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Posted - 2012.05.03 00:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree greatly with this. Here's an example with a drone bonus ship the Curse:
Just to illustrate how terrible these are:
Curse, 2x HML, 2x Damage Mods. Drone Damage Mods vs. BCU:
Drone Damage Mod %Modifier: ~23% Gain
5x Hammerhead II: 238 DPS -> 293 DPS + (2x HML) 67 DPS = 360 DPS 5x Valkyrie II: 193 DPS -> 237 DPS + (2x HML) 67 DPS = 304 DPS
Missile Damage Mod %Modifier: 47% Gain
5x Hammerhead II: 238 DPS + (2x HML) 98 DPS = 346 DPS 5x Valkyrie II: 193 DPS + (2x HML) 98 DPS = 335 DPS
In other words, on a Curse with NO bonus to heavy missiles, two BCU worth of damage mods on your measly two HML put the curse doing *more* total DPS with any drone but Hammerhead IIs, and even on that example, you come within 14 DPS. This isn't even factoring in the advantage of overheat bonuses. These damage mods are *so* weak that they can only be used on ships with heavy or sentry drones, and no corresponding offensive module of similar class. Even then for the Dominix and rattlesnake you'll most likely get more dps using Magnetic Field Stabilizers and Ballistic Control Units.
There is something wrong when you get more dps from 2 unbonused heavy missiles compared to 5 bonused drones from a Droneboat. |
MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
9
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Posted - 2012.05.03 00:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Haha, yea. That was my post on FHC. I'm glad you like it |
Silly Slot
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
1
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Posted - 2012.05.03 00:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
hope devs check this in morning |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1490
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Posted - 2012.05.03 00:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
MalVortex wrote:That limits the EDA's *entire* potential usefulness to select Ishtar and Gila fits Very select fits. I own atleast one each of Gila and Ishtar and the fits I have would have trouble squeezing in a 30 CPU module, much less the 40 CPU one. The fitting cost is kinda crazy when you take into account the pre-gimped CPUs that many drone boats have.
In the current state, I doubt I could justify using these things rather than more tank or something else. 40 CPU and a low slot for an extra 12% damage just isn't worth it (even for heavies/sentries it's iffy at best). |
Piranhas
The Milkmen Test Alliance Please Ignore
19
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Posted - 2012.05.03 01:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dont forget about CPU rigs. |
Thomas Gallant
Eyes In The Dark Lunar Industries Partnership
3
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Posted - 2012.05.03 01:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Make it a high slot item and buff the dps, I don't care about the weak turrets that could be there that I don't have skill for that come anywhere close to my drone skills
Granted we are looking a gift horse in the mouth here, but the points are valid as well imo.
I think generally the idea was to either have good guns/missiles and weak drones, or weak guns/missiles and good drones, for roughly equal overall skill investment. thing is, it seems that it's a lot easier to get by on pure guns/missiles than it is with pure drones ( though I do like the drones flexablity in speed vs power.) |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1492
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Posted - 2012.05.03 01:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Piranhas wrote:Dont forget about CPU rigs.
CPU rigs are kinda pitiful in their current state. They give a 25-40 CPU bonus on an Ishtar or Gila. Compare that to a grid rig giving 80-130 on the same ships.
CPU is naturally lower than grid in all but frigs, but the CPU bonus the rigs give is an even lower percent bonus than grid ones. And CPU rigs have a penalty that would be painful for a Gila or a passive Ishtar while grid rigs have 0 penalty at all. |
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Jame Jarl Retief
Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne
45
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Posted - 2012.05.03 01:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Agreed.
CCP needs to take a look at Gallente tutorial, specifically the part that calls drones a Gallente racial weapon, comparable to Minmatar Projectiles and Amarr Lasers. And then they need to start treading drones accordingly - as a full fledged weapons system, not a red-headed step-child support system. The whole reason I spent the majority of my training time in drones is because I bought that line hook, line and sinker. And so far, it's just not comparable to missile or turret boats, not even close.
I was really hoping drones in general and drone boats in particular would get some serious review, but so far it looks lackluster at best. |
Kaikka Carel
White syndicate
30
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Don't forget that Vexor based ships have very low CPU. I guess it's about time to boost it. |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
150
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just throwing some things to think about it lets get this clear, I would love the CPU lowered and Damage bonus increased a bit but I want to think more about how they stand right now
Practical uses. Vexor and Myrmidon ships where if you do want to add damage its via Guns and Magstabs/ Gyrostabs, as I'm assuming your not a complete **** who uses every lowslot for loltank.
For the Vexor - Dropping a Magstab for the Dronestab, solid choice even at 12%
For the Myrm - 2 or 3 Magstabs right now depending on if your single or dual rep. On the single rep, due to the 3rd Stab stacking bonus, the 2 Magstab and 1 Dronestab option is going to be solid as hell. On the Dual rep setup, its your preference, if your going for the solid afk style mission fit, 2 Dronestabs go alt tab, great.
Ishkur - 1 will fit in nicely, it's drones are unbonused so any extra damage is good.
Ishtar - Fails a bit here. CPU is tight as hell, but with some rejigging, you could get a one on.
Dominix - Neutron Blasters, Sentries, Sentry Damage Rig, 3 Mag Stabs, 3 Drone Stabs. I can only picture unholy amounts of lolgank dps. I lied :o
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FT Diomedes
Factio Paucorum
73
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm not seeing much value in this mod. The T2 version gives a 12% damage bonus, at the expense of 40tf.
On an Ishtar, the Sentry Damage Augmentor I, gives a 10% damage bonus at the cost of 17.81tf. A second SDA I costs 16.92tf. This assumes Drone Rigging to Level IV.
On the fits I have been EFT warrioring, it appears that one Sentry Damage Augmentor II, one Core Defense Field Purger II, and 1 T2 Drone Damage mod gives the optimal passive shield tank fit. |
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Personally I'd be very happy if it were moved to a high slot - most of my droneboat fits, by their nature, have high slots to spare; and in the fits where the high slots are currently full of guns, trading 20% of gun DPS for +20% drone DPS would make sense for a drone-skilled character whose base DPS is higher with drones. |
Kaikka Carel
White syndicate
31
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Posted - 2012.05.03 04:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ok saw them on Sisi and comming back with following:
1. Name: What does it mean? What is it supposed to mean?! "Extrinsic" - I haven't even known such word, I googled for it and it says something very unrelated to drones.
Why not just "Drone Damage Augmentor"?
2. CPU: way to high escpecially for the Vexor and Ishtar either decrease EDA's requirements or increase base CPU on those ships.
3. Damage increase: it is... pitiful?
4. Slot requirements: seriously if choosing between EDA and weapon upgrades modules latter will always prevail since:
a) Drones damage is usually less than that of guns/missiles,
b) EDA gives way too little increase.
c) Guns/Missiles are a better way off delivering damage.
d) Can't fit both OR do gallente now shield tank?
This is the most crucial in my opinion:
Drones are not a primary weapon system - not even on Gallente drone boats.
Problems:
a) They deal not enough damage(and won't with such terrible EDA) to be one.
b) They're a destroyable source of damage. Yes, missles can be destroyed too in theory but in practice no one uses defender missiles in ship-to-ship battle. Partially this is neglected on drone boats with their huge drone bays for spare drones.
c) An abundance of drone upgrade modules which are scattered among slot hardpoints.
Drone Link Augmenter in high slot - +15km range is a good addition but unfortunately Myrmidon and Dominix don't have utility highs and Ishtar doesn't need one unless it's a sniper configuration.
Drone Navigation Computer in mid slot - increases speed of drones and afaik is not stacking penalizied which leads to Berserkers II having same MWD speed with three units as Valkyries II without it. Now I would call that a serious improvement if only I hadn't to waste(yes "waste") slots for just this effect.
Omnidirectional Tracking Link in mid slot - the only common drone upgrade module mostly seen on sentry setups.
And now we have 4th upgrade module! Here's the problem - to fully augment drones to maximum potential one must dedicate [b]a lot[b] of slots. The effects are scattered among great variety of modules which in turn must be stacked for best perfomance.
What I propose is to merge some of these modules with each other:
1. DLA+DNC = module in a high slot which gives more range and more speed for drones to cover it quickly. Would help in PVE with it's great distances and in PVP enabling bigger size drones to catch up with smaller targets This is balanced by the fact that not all ships can field oversized drones or have spare slots to fit such module. Doesn't look like a waste of slots now, right?
2. OTL+EDA = module in a mid slot which increases optimal, tracking and damage of drones(you may even keep that abyssmal damage increase to balance things out). Yes, turrets have separate modules for this attributes BUT drones aren't turrets! Combined these effects should greatly increase drones' combat capabilities,
Now we have only 2 modules in two different slot layouts. Would you spare 3-5 slots on your drone boats to make drones a really deadly and effective component rather than just "50% of my dps"?
Comment, point things out, rage, whatever. |
MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
12
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Posted - 2012.05.03 06:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Shish Tukay wrote:Personally I'd be very happy if it were moved to a high slot - most of my droneboat fits, by their nature, have high slots to spare; and in the fits where the high slots are currently full of guns, trading 20% of gun DPS for +20% drone DPS would make sense for a drone-skilled character whose base DPS is higher with drones.
I really like the idea of moving them into highslots myself. It would match the (little used) Drone Control Unit's placement, and synergize with the utility slots drone boats are often given. On drone boats without utility slots (like the Domi), you then must trade Drone damage output vs. Turret Damage output - a 3x MFS 3x EDA Shield Gank Dominix would easily break 1,500 DPS if it could double stack the damage mods with EDA's on the lowslot (damage figure assumes 22.9% EDAs).
EDAs in the highslot just results in lovely tension around opportunity cost - do you fit turrets or missile launchers? Do you fit that second EDA, or an energy neutralizer? Just thinking about EDA's in the highslot feels much more natural to me than as a lowslot module. Hell, it even creates some natural tension against Drone Link Augmentors - trading long range drone control against higher damage drones. Perfect.
So to sum up:
1) Bump up EDA strength to 22.9% 2) Drop EDA CPU use to 30tf 3) Move EDA from lowslot to highslot
makeitso.jpg |
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2012.05.03 06:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
I absolutely agree with the OP, that Drones should really be treated as a fully developed weapon system. I even go further and propose to get rid of the Drone boats weapon Bonus and make it a Drone only platform, where you can mount unbonused weapons, like the Myrmidon does.
22-25% Damage (rof + dmg mod)
for the extrinsic dmg mod
Therefore add a Dronespeed Bonus (MWD) to all Drone Boats instead.
Atm the Domi, or other boats have to opportunity to choose between standing still (Sentries) or letting the Heavies fly around at an awkward ridiculous low Speed, with the danger of getting Drone Aggro when they're 40km away from your ship, which means they will be damaged or even be killed.
Also while the heavies are traveling, they don't do any Damage, which means, the real DPS of a Domi is way lower than the numbers shown in EFT or ig.
A 50-75% MWD Speed Boost of all Drones, smaller than fighters would be nice, since we could then use the Drone nav computers, and directional tracking links + the new damage mods to get a fast flying set of Drones.
It would't be overpowered, because bombs and smartbombs can kill them easily. Even Medium weapons could kill a set of Ogres. Sentries then should get a 15% dmg bonus, because, well they are stationary and slow down the boat. |
Tarn Kugisa
Space Mongolian Pinked
75
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Posted - 2012.05.03 07:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Have 40 of each kind of drone on a Carrier, +Fighters=lolgank DPS with sentries I Endorse this Product and/or Service [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16580[/url] |
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2012.05.03 07:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Applied only to subcaps, meaning dedicated drone platforms, not for fighters. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
198
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Posted - 2012.05.03 08:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
July Oumis wrote:Applied only to subcaps, meaning dedicated drone platforms, not for fighters. Carriers can use any kind of drone (other than fighter-bombers), not just fighters. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2012.05.03 08:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Agree with general sentiments, was really hoping CCP would break the damage mod mould with this, High slot mod with a good bonus, perhaps even active and requirements scaled with drone size. |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
84
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Posted - 2012.05.03 08:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Agreeing with everyone else.
It's not a good mod.
The idea is good, the implementation is bad.
I say let's make it a high slot mod: but let it use a turret hard point!
In that way you wont have max gank ships as they have to trade guns for drone damage. |
MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
17
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Agreeing with everyone else.
It's not a good mod.
The idea is good, the implementation is bad.
I say let's make it a high slot mod: but let it use a turret hard point!
In that way you wont have max gank ships as they have to trade guns for drone damage.
There are a number of Drone ships without Gun hardpoints, or very few (Gila immediately springs to mind). The module is also not limited to just pure drone boats - there is no reason a drake couldn't fit one of these if it wanted to buff up its Warrior IIs (it would probably be a bad idea, but the option should be there). Consuming a highslot - any highslot - is a significant opportunity cost due to the high pressure for those slots.
On ships like the Dominix or Myrmidon, any highslot spent on an EDA (or any other utility module) is automatically one less gun that could be fit to the ship. That is a direct tradeoff in maximum damage. Even if you are only trading off utility highslots (such as found on the Ishtar), those highslots are still highly in demand for Neuts/Nos, Smarbombs, or a cloak. Each EDA fit reduces the ability to fit those wonderful modules, which is an opportunity cost not to be ignored. Since we are discussing a drone mod, you can't ignore the Drone Link Augmenter either as yet another module competing for those highslots (Gila's are painful without a DLA, and that's half your utility slots right there!).
I love the idea of making EDAs highslot, but making them consume actual turret/missile hardpoints is unnecessary and unfairly exclusionary to specific ships. |
TheButcherPete
Specter Syndicate CORE Alliance
152
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nooo don't switch it to a highslot, I need those for Drone Controls !
You guys should stop flying drone hulls that aren't Carriers :3 My moncole doubles as a cigarette lighter, a flashlight, a laser and x-ray goggles. If you haven't noticed yet, I'm in love with Punkturis. -á-á-á
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July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:July Oumis wrote:Applied only to subcaps, meaning dedicated drone platforms, not for fighters. Carriers can use any kind of drone (other than fighter-bombers), not just fighters.
The drone dmg mod only for subcaps and the sentry dmg and heavy speed only for subcap drone boats.
A carrier with 10-15 bonused ogres + dmg mods, would be a 50% dmg increase, or even more.
2500 DPS ratting Thantos incoming... |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
84
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
MalVortex wrote:Just Alter wrote:Agreeing with everyone else.
It's not a good mod.
The idea is good, the implementation is bad.
I say let's make it a high slot mod: but let it use a turret hard point!
In that way you wont have max gank ships as they have to trade guns for drone damage. There are a number of Drone ships without Gun hardpoints, or very few (Gila immediately springs to mind). The module is also not limited to just pure drone boats - there is no reason a drake couldn't fit one of these if it wanted to buff up its Warrior IIs (it would probably be a bad idea, but the option should be there). Consuming a highslot - any highslot - is a significant opportunity cost due to the high pressure for those slots. On ships like the Dominix or Myrmidon, any highslot spent on an EDA (or any other utility module) is automatically one less gun that could be fit to the ship. That is a direct tradeoff in maximum damage. Even if you are only trading off utility highslots (such as found on the Ishtar), those highslots are still highly in demand for Neuts/Nos, Smarbombs, or a cloak. Each EDA fit reduces the ability to fit those wonderful modules, which is an opportunity cost not to be ignored. Since we are discussing a drone mod, you can't ignore the Drone Link Augmenter either as yet another module competing for those highslots (Gila's are painful without a DLA, and that's half your utility slots right there!). I love the idea of making EDAs highslot, but making them consume actual turret/missile hardpoints is unnecessary and unfairly exclusionary to specific ships.
Quote:On ships like the Dominix or Myrmidon, any highslot spent on an EDA (or any other utility module) is automatically one less gun that could be fit to the ship.
That's the point; otherwise you'd have dominix's with 3 mag stab and 3 eda, shield buffer in the mids and damage rigs. It would push 2+k dps.
If you make them an high slot item (turret OR missiles hardpoint) you are exchanging turret/missile dps for drone dps, in that way the overall dps does not increase, but if you like to use drones and not turrets you actually have the choice to get to 1k dps; right now drones will never do more than 500dps.
The idea is, i repeat: exchange turret/missiles dps for drone dps.
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2012.05.03 10:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
If you want fitting flexibility perhaps there is room for two types of damage mods, after all there are passive low slot tracking enhancers and active midslot tracking comps, no reason there can't be more than one mod. |
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.05.03 10:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
You can't compare Drone DPS to Missile or Turret DPS.
Turrets or bays hit while you are moving your ship and apply the damage. Drone either force you to stand still or have less real DPS, because you have to consider the flighttime.
If you want Drone only, you have to increase raw DPS to equal it out. |
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.05.03 10:41:00 -
[30] - Quote
[Dominix Navy Issue, Drones] Large Armor Repairer II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Adaptive Hardener II Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Drone Navigation Computer II Drone Navigation Computer II [empty med slot] 100MN Afterburner II
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I Large Drone Control Range Augmentor I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Hobgoblin II x5 Ogre II x5 Garde II x5 Warden II x5
Dominix Navy Issue:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 15% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level. 7,5% bonus to drone MWD speed per skill level.
Would be in line with the Myrmidon.
I'd really like to fly it. |
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