EVE Search - @CCP: Extrinsic Damage Amplifier Balancing

Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Pesadel0 wrote:

You are nor sure i'am pretty sure it would , you never saw a fleet of domis with a massive drone bonus , and what special cases around drone combat do you mean?The ability to lock send drones and be emune to ewar?Tracking disrupters ?Nos neut?

The Only thing dependent of drones are the ability of us to kill them, and to outrun them and gain range.

First, when was the last time you saw a fleet of Domis? Honestly? Or heck, a fleet of Gallente ships, period? I've kept an eye on the top 20 killboards, and there's less and less Gallente boats there every year. A year ago, there were two. Now it's down to just one, and that is Talos in the #20 slot. Yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things it's a meaningless statistic, but it does show something, because I honestly don't remember a Domi making the list in the past 3+ years.

The special cases around drone combat are the fact that they can be destroyed, and that even a dedicated drone boat can only carry a limited amount based on size, and their travel time.

The fastest drone still moves a heck of a lot slower than a missile, and way slower than any turret (which are instant). In many cases, drones (especially heavies) just don't make it to the target before it dies. Sentries don't have this issue, but suffer of all the shortcomings if any turret, plus they're stationary - you either babysit them, or you likely lose them because you have to warp out or they get destroyed while sitting there. If you lose them for whatever reason, you have to dock up and resupply (biggest non-carrier can only carry 3 flights of big heavy/sentry drones in its bay), not to mention the price tag associated with losing a flight of T2 heavies (3 mil at current Jita prices).

While drones travel, they use MWD and approach in a straight line - which results in zero transversal to a stationary target and increased signature radius. Need I say more? And then of course there's smartbombs. A single T2 smartbomb can kill most drones in 3-4 pulses, last time I checked.

There's very good reason why drone boats are just not being used often, or at all. And giving drone boats a module that is WORSE than its turret/missile counterpart is not going to change that status quo.

And another fun drone fact? There are still no implants to improve drone damage. Yep, implants for turrets/missiles were added in 2008, I believe. So, 4 years and counting of being treated as a red-headed step-child. And the only rig that increases damage only affects sentries.

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gfldex 497	Posted - 2012.05.04 17:38:00 - [61] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. All hail our new 1300dps domi overlords. Can we have drone damage implants too? (Read: I believe the addition of a drone damage mod was a bad idea 4 years ago (never made it past sisi) and still is.) When someone burns down your sandcasle, bring sausages.
TheButcherPete Specter Syndicate CORE Alliance 156	Posted - 2012.05.04 17:47:00 - [62] - Quote :DDD woot higher modifier, now if only we could get a Damage Modifier and a Damage bonus, sorta like a BCS, but no RoF bonus. My moncole doubles as a cigarette lighter, a flashlight, a laser and x-ray goggles. If you haven't noticed yet, I'm in love with Punkturis. -a-a-a
PinkKnife The Scope Gallente Federation 94	Posted - 2012.05.04 17:49:00 - [63] - Quote gfldex wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. All hail our new 1300dps domi overlords. Can we have drone damage implants too? (Read: I believe the addition of a drone damage mod was a bad idea 4 years ago (never made it past sisi) and still is.) Because Domi's are so used in PVP as it is. While we are discussing drones, can we get a look at the Acolyte's and Hornets so that they have an actual use? I'd love to see it moved up to a high slot as well, as it is they have to play it carefully since drones are used on so many ships, shield and armor tanked so balancing what slot they go in is tricky. But with this, and the addition of more drone rigs, I'd be glad to see, it should definitely help drone boats. Especially Gallente which, lets admit, are still broken for pvp.
Cathrine Kenchov Ice Cold Ellites 3	Posted - 2012.05.04 18:00:00 - [64] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Huh, interesting. The boost is slightly nicer, but these are still underpowered comparatively . A boost in drone hp may make up for the lack in dps, since you cannot change the rof. Thanks for the updates though!
Jame Jarl Retief Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne 46	Posted - 2012.05.04 18:22:00 - [65] - Quote PinkKnife wrote: While we are discussing drones, can we get a look at the Acolyte's and Hornets so that they have an actual use? Hear, hear! Just the other day I was thinking I should really train Caldari and Amarr drone specialization to IV, but then I looked at their drones, laughed and said "No way."
Flein Sopp Grim Determination Nulli Secunda 0	Posted - 2012.05.04 18:28:00 - [66] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Again, make them a highslot module so that they are useful to actual droneboat users and not just the EFT warriors.
Silly Slot Phoenix Evolved Part Duo 18	Posted - 2012.05.04 20:03:00 - [67] - Quote gfldex wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. All hail our new 1300dps domi overlords. Can we have drone damage implants too? (Read: I believe the addition of a drone damage mod was a bad idea 4 years ago (never made it past sisi) and still is.) LOL 1300dps domi's yes its possible but its also like the 1200 dps talos's range becomes the issue, if your talking OGRE's + BLASTERS i mean seriously who points a domi with ogre's at 0 lol, you realize how hard it is to apply DPS. In addition drones need a bigger boost for drone boats why? BECAUSE drones can be DESTROYED, wow want to make that domi loose its effectiveness? Just point it at 30km, orbit, and pop all its ogre's before they can get to you, then take your time killing the domi ... THAT is why the drone dps module should be = if not more effective thatn gun / missle boosts, and for that matter i believe missle buff modules shud be bigger than gun, do to the fact they have to deal with travel time in addition to ROF and DMG
Silly Slot Phoenix Evolved Part Duo 18	Posted - 2012.05.04 20:04:00 - [68] - Quote Flein Sopp wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Again, make them a highslot module so that they are useful to actual droneboat users and not just the EFT warriors. they wont do that, damage modules are a LOW SLOT MOD, that way you are forced to choose between a better armor tank, or more dps.
PinkKnife The Scope Gallente Federation 95	Posted - 2012.05.04 20:09:00 - [69] - Quote Silly Slot wrote: and for that matter i believe missle buff modules shud be bigger than gun, do to the fact they have to deal with travel time in addition to ROF and DMG This is already compensated for in the fact that missiles do higher DPS once applied than turrets do.
MalVortex Applied Agoraphobia 26	Posted - 2012.05.04 23:01:00 - [70] - Quote gfldex wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. All hail our new 1300dps domi overlords. Can we have drone damage implants too? (Read: I believe the addition of a drone damage mod was a bad idea 4 years ago (never made it past sisi) and still is.) What on earth is with the hyperbole in this thread. Shield Gank Domis on TQ can do almost 1,400 DPS standard, and overheat up into the 1,500+ range. A 15% bump to Maxed out Ogre II's is all of 71 additional DPS. Two EDA's take that to 142 additional DPS. Oh yea, terribly OP~ @ CCP SoniClover: I finished running the numbers on the new EDA. The reduced CPU is nice, but they are still catastrophic to Gila and Ishtar fittings. You can fit them, esp. with the new CPU rigs coming in, but they really require you to gut something else to fit them on the ship. Hell, my Gila on TQ runs 4x lowslots without any CPU consumption at all due to how tight that ship's CPU is ._. At 15% Strength, the EDA is now sufficiently powerful that a Curse would fit them over BCUs. Yay. The damage gap is pretty minor however, and that Curse would still gain slightly more DPS by fitting 2x HML over 2x EDA (yes technically Hammerhead IIs have a 4dps advantage, but Hammerhead IIs are too slow for a Curse to use). EDA's on a Pilgrim are... problematic. The ship is starved for slots at every level (highs, mids, lows, you name it), and dropping tank for damage mods - while a nice choice to finally make - is scary because pilgrims are thin, even with a full 5 tank slot. EDA's also run into a somewhat common opportunity cost decision - damage mods vs. guns. While it would look very funky, a single Neutron Blaster Cannon II on the pilgrim is capable of adding 50+ dps. To beat that blaster, you need to give up two low slots for EDA's for 15% EDA's to beat out a single unbonused blaster's additional damage. Personally, I'd much rather give up my small neut than lose two tanking mods. As mentioned previously, the reduced CPU isn't enough to help the Ishtar and Gila. Sentry-nano versions of each of these ships would prefer SDA II rigs, as the SDA uses up a lot less CPU than an EDA does while granting the same DPS bonus to your sentries. To fit 2x EDA requires so much CPU that you usually must give up rails on the Ishtar, which completely negates your damage gains. Gila's are a bit more amicable to them, but the fits heavily depend on CPU rigs AND a litany of faction medslots to get the fitting to work (the need for a DLA on the Gila doesn't help anything here). Brawling Ishtar's will be extremely hard pressed to fit EDA's due to their lack of low slots. With only 5 lows to tank with, they pretty much will need all of them to not just ~die~. Myrms won't fit EDA's past some sort of weird 4+ damage mod shield gank fitting. Gyros add more dps on 220's than EDA's add to the 2/2/1 Thermal drone split. Using explosive drones or blasters will only exacerbate the DPS disparity between a real damage mod and the EDA. This is a bit of a moot point tho, as most myrms don't fit damage mods anyways. Domis have too many fits to go through every possible Dominix fit. Just as with 12% EDA's, 15% EDA will still have fits that are used on the Domi. That said, most of those fits are going to be some variation of a pure shield-gank Domi, and they may not be used until three MFS are already in place (third mag stab adds more DPS than first EDA). For much more conservative Dominix fits, the EDA is basically a dead mod not worth fitting. Either they have guns and a MFS will add more, or they can add 1-2 guns adding more DPS than an EDA would, or the ship is some variant of pure tank (hive, hospital, etc) and the tradeoff for 15% damage is not worth the loss in DPS tanked. Many domi fits, particularly hive-themed domis, would also prefer SDA rigs to EDA's. Same damage modifier, less important slot to grab it from. It does cost a bit more CPU on the Dominix than an EDA does, but most Domi's don't run into CPU trouble. TLDR: Buffs make the EDA usable on the Curse, all other ships are highly suspect at best. I'd recommend bumping their stats to this: 1) Cut CPU to 20/25tf 2) Bump DPS up to 16/20% I have considered the options of adding ancillary effects to the drones, such as +HP, but all this will really accomplish is adding two :meh: effects together to make yet another underwhelming drone module. If the DPS modifier on the EDA is an insufficient reason to add it to your ship, a few more %HP isn't going to change the equation. in most circumstances a modest bump to drone HP is simply not going to matter (either your drones aren't going to get shot, or they are and a few extra HP won't save them). Most pilots would prefer to have their lows and CPU going to mods that will always give them a combat edge, not a "maybe sometimes" edge. As such, if the damage modifier isn't competitive, the mod itself won't be competitive. HP modifiers can be tacked on if the damage modifier winds up in the "almost worth it" zone to sweeten the pot, but the EDA is not there yet.

Pesadel0 the muppets RED.OverLord 34	Posted - 2012.05.04 23:06:00 - [71] - Quote Flein Sopp wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Again, make them a highslot module so that they are useful to actual droneboat users and not just the EFT warriors. Yeah i mean you can-&t thank in the meds no can-&t you?
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 126	Posted - 2012.05.05 00:04:00 - [72] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Is there a specific reason for wanting to keep their overall effect on damage output lower than their counterparts for other weapons systems?
Pesadel0 the muppets RED.OverLord 34	Posted - 2012.05.05 00:15:00 - [73] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Is there a specific reason for wanting to keep their overall effect on damage output lower than their counterparts for other weapons systems? Maybe perhaps it would make them overpowered,.
Selaya Ataru Pink Kitten Kommando To The Moon 6	Posted - 2012.05.05 00:31:00 - [74] - Quote Pesadel0 wrote: Flein Sopp wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Again, make them a highslot module so that they are useful to actual droneboat users and not just the EFT warriors. Yeah i mean you can-&t tank in the meds no can-&t you? Getting them into high slots would make them more attractive for a lot of fittings. If they use up a low slot, only a few dedicated drone ships will use them. with highslots you might see them a lot more on BCs and BS and generally have a lot more options. I like more options.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 127	Posted - 2012.05.05 01:05:00 - [75] - Quote Pesadel0 wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Is there a specific reason for wanting to keep their overall effect on damage output lower than their counterparts for other weapons systems? Maybe perhaps it would make them overpowered,. Given all the other limitations and special cases around drone combat I'm not sure a decent damage mod would suddenly make them OP.
Alice Katsuko Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing 107	Posted - 2012.05.05 01:15:00 - [76] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Definitely looking forward to seeing how it works in practice. The CPU requirements are now in line with all other damage mods aside from Ballistic Control Units, which require 35 and 40 CPU for T1 and T2 versions, respectively. The damage bonus is somewhat low on paper, but drones have certain advantages and disadvantages over other weapons which may mitigate that. So it may make sense to release the mod in its currently updated state and see what players do with it.
Alticus C Bear University of Caille Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2012.05.05 07:53:00 - [77] - Quote They should suffer stacking penalties in fact at the new percentages they may obsolete the sentry rigs, why use that much calibration for a T2 sentry rig for the same bonus at T1 they will stack last. I suspect drone proteus is getting the biggest buff, should be able to fit 3 omnis, 3 damage mods, dla and tank. -aMay move it to number two PVE slot for T3. 500+ Sentry DPS at 50km + 250mm rails.
Pesadel0 the muppets RED.OverLord 34	Posted - 2012.05.05 08:05:00 - [78] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Pesadel0 wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday. I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively) I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively. Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types. Is there a specific reason for wanting to keep their overall effect on damage output lower than their counterparts for other weapons systems? Maybe perhaps it would make them overpowered,. Given all the other limitations and special cases around drone combat I'm not sure a decent damage mod would suddenly make them OP. You are nor sure i'am pretty sure it would , you never saw a fleet of domis with a massive drone bonus , and what special cases around drone combat do you mean?The ability to lock send drones and be emune to ewar?Tracking disrupters ?Nos neut? The Only thing dependent of drones are the ability of us to kill them, and to outrun them and gain range.
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Project Wildfire 291	Posted - 2012.05.05 13:49:00 - [79] - Quote I think it would be better if the drone damage mods were a high slot module that took up power instead of cpu. Then drone boats like the Dominix could put out good dps with drons and have the same tank as before. The current implementation is really dumb CCP.
Thomas Gallant Eyes In The Dark Lunar Industries Partnership 5	Posted - 2012.05.05 14:50:00 - [80] - Quote I agree, high slot damage module. on another note, invention for the Blueprint should be changed to use Gallente skills and items, instead of the caldari stuff used now, also the missile launcher icon for the item isn't really the best icon for it.

Jame Jarl Retief Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne 50	Posted - 2012.05.05 17:44:00 - [81] - Quote Pesadel0 wrote: You are nor sure i'am pretty sure it would , you never saw a fleet of domis with a massive drone bonus , and what special cases around drone combat do you mean?The ability to lock send drones and be emune to ewar?Tracking disrupters ?Nos neut? The Only thing dependent of drones are the ability of us to kill them, and to outrun them and gain range. First, when was the last time you saw a fleet of Domis? Honestly? Or heck, a fleet of Gallente ships, period? I've kept an eye on the top 20 killboards, and there's less and less Gallente boats there every year. A year ago, there were two. Now it's down to just one, and that is Talos in the #20 slot. Yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things it's a meaningless statistic, but it does show something, because I honestly don't remember a Domi making the list in the past 3+ years. The special cases around drone combat are the fact that they can be destroyed, and that even a dedicated drone boat can only carry a limited amount based on size, and their travel time. The fastest drone still moves a heck of a lot slower than a missile, and way slower than any turret (which are instant). In many cases, drones (especially heavies) just don't make it to the target before it dies. Sentries don't have this issue, but suffer of all the shortcomings if any turret, plus they're stationary - you either babysit them, or you likely lose them because you have to warp out or they get destroyed while sitting there. If you lose them for whatever reason, you have to dock up and resupply (biggest non-carrier can only carry 3 flights of big heavy/sentry drones in its bay), not to mention the price tag associated with losing a flight of T2 heavies (3 mil at current Jita prices). While drones travel, they use MWD and approach in a straight line - which results in zero transversal to a stationary target and increased signature radius. Need I say more? And then of course there's smartbombs. A single T2 smartbomb can kill most drones in 3-4 pulses, last time I checked. There's very good reason why drone boats are just not being used often, or at all. And giving drone boats a module that is WORSE than its turret/missile counterpart is not going to change that status quo. And another fun drone fact? There are still no implants to improve drone damage. Yep, implants for turrets/missiles were added in 2008, I believe. So, 4 years and counting of being treated as a red-headed step-child. And the only rig that increases damage only affects sentries.
TheButcherPete Specter Syndicate CORE Alliance 158	Posted - 2012.05.05 17:52:00 - [82] - Quote Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Pesadel0 wrote: You are nor sure i'am pretty sure it would , you never saw a fleet of domis with a massive drone bonus , and what special cases around drone combat do you mean?The ability to lock send drones and be emune to ewar?Tracking disrupters ?Nos neut? The Only thing dependent of drones are the ability of us to kill them, and to outrun them and gain range. First, when was the last time you saw a fleet of Domis? Honestly? Or heck, a fleet of Gallente ships, period? I've kept an eye on the top 20 killboards, and there's less and less Gallente boats there every year. A year ago, there were two. Now it's down to just one, and that is Talos in the #20 slot. Yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things it's a meaningless statistic, but it does show something, because I honestly don't remember a Domi making the list in the past 3+ years. The special cases around drone combat are the fact that they can be destroyed, and that even a dedicated drone boat can only carry a limited amount based on size, and their travel time. The fastest drone still moves a heck of a lot slower than a missile, and way slower than any turret (which are instant). In many cases, drones (especially heavies) just don't make it to the target before it dies. Sentries don't have this issue, but suffer of all the shortcomings if any turret, plus they're stationary - you either babysit them, or you likely lose them because you have to warp out or they get destroyed while sitting there. If you lose them for whatever reason, you have to dock up and resupply (biggest non-carrier can only carry 3 flights of big heavy/sentry drones in its bay), not to mention the price tag associated with losing a flight of T2 heavies (3 mil at current Jita prices). While drones travel, they use MWD and approach in a straight line - which results in zero transversal to a stationary target and increased signature radius. Need I say more? And then of course there's smartbombs. A single T2 smartbomb can kill most drones in 3-4 pulses, last time I checked. There's very good reason why drone boats are just not being used often, or at all. And giving drone boats a module that is WORSE than its turret/missile counterpart is not going to change that status quo. And another fun drone fact? There are still no implants to improve drone damage. Yep, implants for turrets/missiles were added in 2008, I believe. So, 4 years and counting of being treated as a red-headed step-child. And the only rig that increases damage only affects sentries. I agree. +1 My moncole doubles as a cigarette lighter, a flashlight, a laser and x-ray goggles. If you haven't noticed yet, I'm in love with Punkturis. -a-a-a
Rrama Ratamnim Phoenix Evolved Part Duo 2	Posted - 2012.05.05 18:14:00 - [83] - Quote Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Pesadel0 wrote: You are nor sure i'am pretty sure it would , you never saw a fleet of domis with a massive drone bonus , and what special cases around drone combat do you mean?The ability to lock send drones and be emune to ewar?Tracking disrupters ?Nos neut? The Only thing dependent of drones are the ability of us to kill them, and to outrun them and gain range. First, when was the last time you saw a fleet of Domis? Honestly? Or heck, a fleet of Gallente ships, period? I've kept an eye on the top 20 killboards, and there's less and less Gallente boats there every year. A year ago, there were two. Now it's down to just one, and that is Talos in the #20 slot. Yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things it's a meaningless statistic, but it does show something, because I honestly don't remember a Domi making the list in the past 3+ years. The special cases around drone combat are the fact that they can be destroyed, and that even a dedicated drone boat can only carry a limited amount based on size, and their travel time. The fastest drone still moves a heck of a lot slower than a missile, and way slower than any turret (which are instant). In many cases, drones (especially heavies) just don't make it to the target before it dies. Sentries don't have this issue, but suffer of all the shortcomings if any turret, plus they're stationary - you either babysit them, or you likely lose them because you have to warp out or they get destroyed while sitting there. If you lose them for whatever reason, you have to dock up and resupply (biggest non-carrier can only carry 3 flights of big heavy/sentry drones in its bay), not to mention the price tag associated with losing a flight of T2 heavies (3 mil at current Jita prices). While drones travel, they use MWD and approach in a straight line - which results in zero transversal to a stationary target and increased signature radius. Need I say more? And then of course there's smartbombs. A single T2 smartbomb can kill most drones in 3-4 pulses, last time I checked. There's very good reason why drone boats are just not being used often, or at all. And giving drone boats a module that is WORSE than its turret/missile counterpart is not going to change that status quo. And another fun drone fact? There are still no implants to improve drone damage. Yep, implants for turrets/missiles were added in 2008, I believe. So, 4 years and counting of being treated as a red-headed step-child. And the only rig that increases damage only affects sentries. I agree as well, well said +1000000
Ager Agemo Euphoric Enterprise 65	Posted - 2012.05.05 19:54:00 - [84] - Quote Just Alter wrote: Vaako Horizon wrote: Just Alter wrote: Making it an high slot(and turret/missiles) item would: increase the tank(mag stabs/bcu slots could be used to increase the tank) give drone users the ability to avoid training gunnery(or missiles) skills at all increase drone dps to such a point that it would equal that of turrets. (so 5 ogres/sentries+7 EDA in a bonused ship would do about 1200dps) make drones a scalable weapon system, not stuck at 500dps. But i see i'm talking about something completely different here. So sticking to reality: make it an utility high slot, the increase in dps wont be so high to overpower ships. +7 EDA? woot? that will make the drone range very limited ( 65km ), I'd really love 1200 dps on my rattle but the range is unacceptable, I would go something like 1 t2 cruise missile, 2x drone link augmentor and then rest EDA's No other bs does 1200 dps at 65km so it would be fair. About the tank: if you used sentries+sentry rigs now you can switch the rigs for tank/cap rigs and use the EDA in the lows, with similiar performance (at least in certain setups/ships) I'd still like to see them on the high slots but it seems like it's not gonna happen. my nightmare wants to have a talk with you...
Stetson Eagle ROC Academy The ROC 23	Posted - 2012.05.05 20:22:00 - [85] - Quote Don't increase drone damage any further - it will severely tilt hybrid drone/gunships off balance due to ridiculous amounts of DPS. As is with 15%, a shield rail dominix is already pushing 1300-ish DPS to 50km. Alternatively, make drone damage mods stacking penalized with other damage mods.
Vaako Horizon Casual Slackers Daily Operations 32	Posted - 2012.05.05 20:48:00 - [86] - Quote Its CCP we are talking about.... you know, those ppl that say they listen to the community. They wont listen to us now in regards to making this module high slot ( limited to turret/launcher slots ) Also... I see a few ships mentioned but I see almost no mentioning of the rattlesnake... I think above all ships ( drone ships ) the rattle needs the most love, give us these highslots ( 4x launchers without ship bonus is crap )
MalVortex Applied Agoraphobia 28	Posted - 2012.05.05 21:19:00 - [87] - Quote Stetson Eagle wrote: Don't increase drone damage any further - it will severely tilt hybrid drone/gunships off balance due to ridiculous amounts of DPS. As is with 15%, a shield rail dominix is already pushing 1300-ish DPS to 50km. Alternatively, make drone damage mods stacking penalized with other damage mods. Christ and Hunter, what is with EVE-O posters? Dominix, 3xMFS, 3x EDA, 1x TE, 6x426, 5x Bouncer II, 5% Large Railgun Damage, 5% Turret Damage: 1,170 dps @ 41+39km. This dominix needs three ACRs to fit, and has 52k EHP, 32k effective shields. It has no tackle, low scan resolution, and is fat and slow. The railguns have 0.013 tracking, and the bouncers 0.012. Good luck hitting anything but other battleships. This is an entirely useless fitting. The dominix has to overheat all its rails (with those twin 5% damage implants) to hit your inflated numbers. Let me make this clear - nobody is going to fly a dominix like this. Its useless at sniping, useless in roaming gangs. If you want to bash a POS without any counter hostile action knock yourself out, but that is its only possible use. Acting as if you can make a viable fitting like this is the friggin king of strawman arguments. Just so we are clear, you can use this same Dominix, right now on TQ, and do 1,000 DPS at 41+39km. You even have a full 3 lowslots to maybe make your tank not completely suck! 3x EDA on a full-****** Dominix fit doesn't make the ship overpowered, its only 300 additional DPS for a completely gimped fit. That all said, I do agree Domis are potentially problematic due to their ability to "double dip" on damage mods. I've been saying this sense my OP! This is why I wanted EDA's in the highslot, so you can't fit a full rack of guns at the same time. Each EDA would require a gun to be dropped on a ship like the Dominix, and that would easily counterbalance vs. the gain in DPS. As it stands, if anybody actually read my post with numbers crunched, you'd see that 15% EDAs are too niche for the majority of drone ships to use (let alone a non-drone boat). If you want to dispute that, go make a reasonable fit showing 15% EDAs are OP and then come back. I'm getting tired of these overinflated DPS, useless boats being held up as examples of drone damage mods being too good.
MalVortex Applied Agoraphobia 28	Posted - 2012.05.05 21:32:00 - [88] - Quote Regarding the requests for the Rattlesnake, I'll admit I forgot to run the numbers on her.. Kind of shows where the rattler is for PVP combat eh? The rattlesnake actually loves EDA. Of every drone ship I've looked at so far, it has a massive, unadulterated lust for them. CN Torps from T2 launchers only do 273 dps off the rattlesnake, while Ogre IIs start off at 475. Even with roughly double the scaling power on BCU, the low initial damage numbers from the torps simply can't be made up compared to the high (comparatively) starting damage numbers of Large Drones. Plus it has a ton of lowslots and relatively few good ways to spend them after BCUs. Just eyeballing the numbers, it looks like 2x BCU, 2x EDA on the Scorpion would be the optimal setup. If you want 5 damage mods, its almost a dead heat in which adds more. Third EDA adds more with Ogre IIs out, Third BCU adds more with any other drone out. So if you want 5x Damage mod Scorp, its really up to personal preference.
Shish Tukay Caldari Provisions Caldari State 7	Posted - 2012.05.06 01:45:00 - [89] - Quote High-slot would make pure-drone fits viable, where currently they're lagging behind pure-guns and pure-rockets; as they are now, even someone with lots of drone skills and little gunnery would still be better off fitting guns + gun damage mods. Quote: damage mods are LOW SLOT ITEMS So "tradition" is a great reason for anything? By that logic, "weapons are high-slot items". Except drones aren't. Drones are different; they act differently and should be treated differently. Quote: A dev said it's low slot; this means it is low slot for now and forever, stop discussing it, abandon all hope of being listened to Maybe once it's on the live server I'll grumpily tolerate it; but while it's on the test server and they're asking for feedback, I'm going to keep testing and giving feedback, as I would imagine that's what the "test server feedback" forum is for :-P
Vaako Horizon Casual Slackers Daily Operations 32	Posted - 2012.05.06 08:21:00 - [90] - Quote MalVortex wrote: Regarding the requests for the Rattlesnake, I'll admit I forgot to run the numbers on her.. Kind of shows where the rattler is for PVP combat eh? The rattlesnake actually loves EDA. Of every drone ship I've looked at so far, it has a massive, unadulterated lust for them. CN Torps from T2 launchers only do 273 dps off the rattlesnake, while Ogre IIs start off at 475. Even with roughly double the scaling power on BCU, the low initial damage numbers from the torps simply can't be made up compared to the high (comparatively) starting damage numbers of Large Drones. Plus it has a ton of lowslots and relatively few good ways to spend them after BCUs. Just eyeballing the numbers, it looks like 2x BCU, 2x EDA on the Scorpion would be the optimal setup. If you want 5 damage mods, its almost a dead heat in which adds more. Third EDA adds more with Ogre IIs out, Third BCU adds more with any other drone out. So if you want 5x Damage mod Scorp, its really up to personal preference. the rattle's LOW missile damage ( useless even in pve ) makes me want these EDA in highslot, to replace the missles in favor of the drones... I do tons and tons of more dps in my domi because the guns are far better then missiles :P and it also has somewhat of a better tank despite the rattles passive abilitys. I only stay in my rattle because it needs less attention and that makes multiboxing easier.


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