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William Amato
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Posted - 2009.04.05 10:58:00 -
[1]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II +4200 hp 33 TF cpu 3,750,000 kg Mass 575 mw power meta 5 Tech 2
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I +4200 hp 28 TF cpu 2,750,000 500 MW power meta 4 Tech 1
Does anyone else see a BIG problem with this? Tech 2 plates need to be fixed.
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kano donn
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Posted - 2009.04.05 11:03:00 -
[2]
... no
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Kuranta
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.04.05 12:17:00 -
[3]
T2 is not allways better than best named. This is intended. |
Zaknussem
Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2009.04.05 12:36:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kuranta T2 is not allways better than best named. This is intended.
I strongly doubt that. The concept idea of T2 modules is that they are supposed to be better than T1 modules, but at the cost of increased fitting and skill requirements. T2 weapons take it further by giving you more options for ammo to use.
Armour plates are not the only T2 module with issues. The list of T2 modules that are inferior to the best named modules is way too long. Every ECM and ECCM module is like this as well, for example.
Those T2 modules need to be boosted, so that they are either better than the best named, or become a viable alternative to the best named module. |
NightF0x
Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.04.05 12:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Zaknussem
Originally by: Kuranta T2 is not allways better than best named. This is intended.
I strongly doubt that. The concept idea of T2 modules is that they are supposed to be better than T1 modules, but at the cost of increased fitting and skill requirements.
Not in all situations. There are several T1 items that are better than T2. It makes you actually do some investigative work to determine what you really want instead of everyone wanting T2 just because it says T2. ------------------------------------
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.04.05 12:43:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Zaknussem
Originally by: Kuranta T2 is not allways better than best named. This is intended.
I strongly doubt that. The concept idea of T2 modules is that they are supposed to be better than T1 modules, but at the cost of increased fitting and skill requirements. T2 weapons take it further by giving you more options for ammo to use.
Armour plates are not the only T2 module with issues. The list of T2 modules that are inferior to the best named modules is way too long. Every ECM and ECCM module is like this as well, for example.
Those T2 modules need to be boosted, so that they are either better than the best named, or become a viable alternative to the best named module.
You can doubt it all you like, but it appears in so many "Meta 4 vs Tech 2" situations that it can't be mistaken - there are previous threads regarding this. What is mistaken is your preconception of what T2 should be, as opposed to what it is.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.04.05 12:57:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Whitehound on 05/04/2009 13:01:08 It is true, some T1 items are better than T2 items.
However, T2 items have blueprints. The better T1 items do not (except for some T1 faction items).
When you want the best you may find it in form of a T1 or a T2 item, and there is no rule that says T2 is always the best.
If you want items close to the best, while being manufacturable and for a good price, then T2 is preferred. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
FarosWarrior
Amarr Sonnema
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Posted - 2009.04.05 18:38:00 -
[8]
most of the time the T2 item is cheaper then the meta-4 cheers, Faros
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.04.05 18:54:00 -
[9]
Yes, the Tech2 1600mm armor plates are very badly balanced. Not only are they harder to fit, which is usually the case when you compare T2 to Meta4, but they are also 'hugely' worse stat-wise. The price isn't really different since plates are available in abundance and T2 1600mm plates are rather expensive to produce.
T2 should have lower mass, or more hp bonus. Higher fitting requirements on both CPU and PG plus the 73.3% mass increase simply makes them useless right now.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.04.05 19:48:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 05/04/2009 19:52:32
Originally by: Zaknussem
Originally by: Kuranta T2 is not allways better than best named. This is intended.
I strongly doubt that. The concept idea of T2 modules is that they are supposed to be better than T1 modules, but at the cost of increased fitting and skill requirements. T2 weapons take it further by giving you more options for ammo to use.
Armour plates are not the only T2 module with issues. The list of T2 modules that are inferior to the best named modules is way too long. Every ECM and ECCM module is like this as well, for example.
Those T2 modules need to be boosted, so that they are either better than the best named, or become a viable alternative to the best named module.
Hi, welcome to Eve. They've been that way since t2 was introduced.
If there's a real problem it'll get adjusted at some point. T2 items don't have to be better then best named (though it would make more sense). What would happen to the meta item market if t2 was better no matter what? How much player skill does it take to buy and fit all t2 items? Do a little research. it's good for you.
Be an informed buyer and buy what's best for your application.
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Markus Reese
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.04.05 21:20:00 -
[11]
Reading on T2, the point of it was that it was to have a bonus with a penalty. Look at T2 ships. They are better at something, but less rigs and usually less versatile as their bonuses are more specific. Ie the sac and its bonus to HAL. Launchers and guns, same way, can use Advanced ammo and higher ROF, but much more stat consuming. For things like these armor plates, I feel that there should be more hp, but at the expense of more system use and the already existing higher powergrid usage. One other thing that could be of interest. Say T2 offers a 2% bonus to resistance. Mild bonus yes, but I think that would be a kind of balance. It is also equal to gains that other T2s have over their meta4 counterparts.
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Jin Labarre
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Posted - 2009.04.05 21:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: William Amato Does anyone else see a BIG problem with this? Tech 2 plates need to be fixed.
They are not broken. In fact, they are perfectly in line with a LOT of other stuff. You seem to assume that Tech II always has to be better than Tech I. Well, you know what they say about things you "assume". Just don't.
Tech II usually is better or equal to good Tech I. It is not always better. Sometimes it is worse. Usually it is cheaper. There is no general rule for this. Take a look at energy weapons, for example. Apart from not being able to fit Tech II crystals, Meta 4 lasers are better than Tech II. They are easier to fit and they need much less energy to fire. Just one example among many.
Oh and Tech II can be mass produced. Meta X cannot.
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.05 23:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jin Labarre Take a look at energy weapons, for example. Apart from not being able to fit Tech II crystals, Meta 4 lasers are better than Tech II. They are easier to fit and they need much less energy to fire. Just one example among many.
Weapons are a bad analogy to use for this situation, as they get a damage bonus from the Weapon Spec skills - and 8% at IV/10% at V is a pretty decent boost. ----
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.05 23:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: NightF0x
Originally by: Zaknussem
Originally by: Kuranta T2 is not allways better than best named. This is intended.
I strongly doubt that. The concept idea of T2 modules is that they are supposed to be better than T1 modules, but at the cost of increased fitting and skill requirements.
Not in all situations. There are several T1 items that are better than T2. It makes you actually do some investigative work to determine what you really want instead of everyone wanting T2 just because it says T2.
the meta level defines the "goodness" of the module.
if a meta 4 item is "gooder" in EVERY respect to a t2, something is wrong.
and no, cost doesnt count, thanks for trying.
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.05 23:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: NightF0x
Originally by: Zaknussem
Originally by: Kuranta T2 is not allways better than best named. This is intended.
I strongly doubt that. The concept idea of T2 modules is that they are supposed to be better than T1 modules, but at the cost of increased fitting and skill requirements.
Not in all situations. There are several T1 items that are better than T2. It makes you actually do some investigative work to determine what you really want instead of everyone wanting T2 just because it says T2.
the meta level defines the "goodness" of the module.
if a meta 4 item is "gooder" in EVERY respect to a t2(meta 5), something is wrong.
and no, cost doesnt count, thanks for trying.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.04.06 00:32:00 -
[16]
Thanks for the T2 weapon example. T2 weapons have T2 range ammo and do more damage through specialisation skills. So they do have some advantages. Apart from that they're usually cheaper.
Now I'd like someone to point out just one advantage of T2 plates. Only one please.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Kaahles
E3 Corporation New EVE Rising
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Posted - 2009.04.06 09:37:00 -
[17]
The fact that some T2 items are worse than T1-'named' items annyos me sometime too but I've never read anywhere that T2 is supposed to be always better than the 'named'-stuff. IMO it's meant to be the best item that can be manufactured by the players (not counting faction item bpc's) ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
Onys Cissalc
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Posted - 2009.04.06 09:53:00 -
[18]
Believe it or not, when T2 was implemented, there were a few articles regarding their release, clearly stating:
"We want Tech2 ships and modules to be desirable, but with limitations. They should have unique attributes, but with a cost that people should have to pay for their benefit."
The cost for modules most often boils down to a simple CPU and PG increase over the best named version of the same module.
In some other cases, it is an issue of comparative rarity. For example, phased muon sensor dampeners or baker-nunn tracking disruptors are not so common that you could easily go out and pick one up out of a mission, as opposed to inventing the T2 version yourself.
As a result, these named versions, with their somewhat lower CPU usage and decreased capacitor usage, are more expensive than their T2 counterparts.
The same thus applies to your 1600mm plates example. 1600mm Tungsten plates are fairly uncommon to pick up. At least, not so common that you could, again, simply go out and pick one up within a few minutes.
Thus you pay a price in PG and CPU usage, and mass, for the T2 versions.
Look at it as a difference between the suit Tony Stark makes in Iron Man as opposed to the one the other guy makes.
Tony Stark's is a secret, original version. It's far more power efficient, more durable, less bulky, faster, etc.
On the other hand, the knock-off the other guy made, even tho he believed it to be better, was actually less efficient, slower, more bulky, had more weaknesses.
I don't doubt, however, that Tony Stark's version would cost more to manufacture on a large scale, and take longer, than the version the other guy invented in his own labs.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.04.06 10:24:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Whitehound on 06/04/2009 10:24:10
Originally by: Onys Cissalc Look at it as a difference between the suit Tony Stark makes in Iron Man as opposed to the one the other guy makes.
Tony Stark's is a secret, original version. It's far more power efficient, more durable, less bulky, faster, etc. ...
Let's replace the pods with Iron Man suits, and make them upgradeable to become Transformers. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
Zey Nadar
Gallente Stormwatch Galactic
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Posted - 2009.04.06 10:35:00 -
[20]
There exists T2 armor plates in this game? o_O
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Markus Reese
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.04.07 01:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kaahles The fact that some T2 items are worse than T1-'named' items annyos me sometime too but I've never read anywhere that T2 is supposed to be always better than the 'named'-stuff. IMO it's meant to be the best item that can be manufactured by the players (not counting faction item bpc's)
The way I read T2 (and stated above) is that T2 is not always better, but more specialized. You get something better, but at a cost usually.
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