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Goatfather
HOMELE55 Double Tap.
1
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Posted - 2012.05.03 04:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
We should just make one massive merc/war alliance in HS. Push our differences aside if this system actually goes live. |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
1
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Posted - 2012.05.03 04:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
373
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. You'd be surprised.
Don't forget the war stacking multiplier, lol. |
Goatfather
HOMELE55 Double Tap.
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 05:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place.
As it says: 50m starting plus 500k per person x1 = 50.5m
*ahem* it's on the test server, thus it's "in place" enough to have made it that far.
I do not think CCP is dumb, I feel CCP is making a choice based on what they felt was good. What means they utilized to decide what is good, who knows. |
Ifly Uwalk
Concentrated Evil Mining For Profit Alliance
211
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 06:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. The 50M base fee isn't the issue. The 500K per member is. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
629
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 06:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
So don't deck goons in highsec and move in on their turf. There is realisticly, way more ******* people who may not like them and if all of EVE (if that were to happen) were to focus on goons, they would be crushed like a cat under a monster truck. And you could do it without a wardec fee at all.
Also...GTFO of highsec, problem ******* solved. Been saying that all along if you don't like highsec shenanigans |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
22
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Posted - 2012.05.03 07:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sounds to me that if this hits tranquility it will kill empire decs for the most part.
Not only do you have to pay ridiculous fees, with the ally system that will go in effect, no one will be that interested in putting up even a vote.
My opinion:
Increase the dec fee - good call.
Add a 'per member' cost value - bad call.
Unlimited allies for the target - ridiculous.
Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge.
Doesn't sound like it has been thought through enough.
I predict a massive suicide gank increase and mercs advertising with that as a specific service;
NEED SOMEONE KILLED?
Hire us for our Tornado gank service.
Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
Devore Sekk
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.05.03 07:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aesheera wrote:Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge.
Wut? Half decent mercs aren't cheap. Hiring a bunch of bozos with some PvP ships is just throwing your money away, especially without neutral rr. |
qu1ckkkk
The Warp Core Stabilizers Purgat0ry
2
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Posted - 2012.05.03 07:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aesheera wrote: Not only do you have to pay ridiculous fees, with the ally system that will go in effect, no one will be that interested in putting up even a vote.
Assuming you didn't read the changes, a corporation vote is no longer needed.
Aesheera wrote: Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge.
Doesn't sound like it has been thought through enough.
I predict a massive suicide gank increase and mercs advertising with that as a specific service;
NEED SOMEONE KILLED?
Hire us for our Tornado gank service.
I myself have long discussed this balance problem that I foresee due to the costs as well as the unlimited allies with a few mates. I'm not too bothered with the fact that deccing goonz is 4Bil +, but the smaller decs even costing a bil is pretty meh.
Taking into account the cost implications, as well as the unlimited allies problem, dont you think the shift to everyone suddenly doing merc work rather than actually aggressing might hurt empire decs? No doubt, there will still be wars, but the risk-cost implications is pretty big :)
Those that havent seen the fanfest vid on Inferno should watch it. CCP want's dec's to be more 'hardcode'. We'll, the only way that is happening is by preventing the dec shielding crap and getting out of a dec before the week is over. Other than that, meh.
Heck, I'll probably do free merc work now considering I'll be joining a bunch of allies ^^
my 2c |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
719
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 08:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. You'd be surprised. Don't forget the war stacking multiplier, lol. There won't be no stacking multiplier in the new system |
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
374
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 08:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. You'd be surprised. Don't forget the war stacking multiplier, lol. There won't be no stacking multiplier in the new system Okay, so that's a good sign at least.
Still, as someone who's managed successful small mercenary outfits for many years now, I can tell you that mercenary services will now exclusively become the domain of the wealthy. As it is now, few clients are willing to pay a decent service fee (I'm talking in the couple-hundred-million area), and when a 100-200 million war fee comes into play, many get turned off entirely. With these changes, it will cost hundreds of millions just to wage a week of war. So small-scale mercenary groups will either have to work for free (and still have less jobs than they do today), or not work entirely.
CCP needs to realize that a billion ISK is a lot of money for some carebear corporation that wants to hire muscle for some revenge. The professional mercenary industry has already been declining for the past few years, at least as far as small groups are concerned. We made a pretty big deal out of the new fee structure in General Discussion, but CCP declined to listen.
Like Aesheera said, it will probably be more financially viable to suicide-gank than to declare war after the changes. |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
qu1ckkkk wrote:Aesheera wrote: Not only do you have to pay ridiculous fees, with the ally system that will go in effect, no one will be that interested in putting up even a vote.
Assuming you didn't read the changes, a corporation vote is no longer needed. Small typo, I was aware, but you get what I mean.
qu1ckkkk wrote:I myself have long discussed this balance problem that I foresee due to the costs as well as the unlimited allies with a few mates. I'm not too bothered with the fact that deccing goonz is 4Bil +, but the smaller decs even costing a bil is pretty meh.
Taking into account the cost implications, as well as the unlimited allies problem, dont you think the shift to everyone suddenly doing merc work rather than actually aggressing might hurt empire decs? No doubt, there will still be wars, but the risk-cost implications is pretty big :)
Those that havent seen the fanfest vid on Inferno should watch it. CCP want's dec's to be more 'hardcode'. We'll, the only way that is happening is by preventing the dec shielding crap and getting out of a dec before the week is over. Other than that, meh.
Heck, I'll probably do free merc work now considering I'll be joining a bunch of allies ^^
my 2c
Thats most likely what will happen if this is going live on Tranq.
Who will even bother wardeccing someone? Heck RvB will probably shutdown with this mechanic since the costs for their - in my opinion - amazing Empire war operation will be nigh unfundable for a prolonged amount of time.
I don't think CCP realises the weight of this decision. People left and right will be offering themselves as so called Mercs just to get free targets and the amount of dockgames will increase to such a degree that within a 2 month notice highsec will become what the PvE'rs (the ones that have at least) always whined about.
And if that doesn't happen highsec will most likely become one big fat alliance or two just to demotivate anyone from ever declaring a war. I mean, who wants to even pay billions for a one week wartarget hunt?
A big string of systems where every missionrunner, miner and industrialist will be able to do whatever they want without anyone bothering to deploy some grief - not that that's my thing, but making it THIs risk adverse will make it extremely boring. Not to mention the 'suspect' mechanic where even a simple canflip for said griefers will be punished so hard that it's going to become one, big lifeless pool of PvP boredom.
The consequences have too big of an impact.
My proposed changes?
Increase base dec fee and only that, screw +member fees.
Remove max number of corporation decs (like is planned atm).
Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage.
Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
4,2 billions to war dec goons.
This is madness.
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ifly Uwalk wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. The 50M base fee isn't the issue. The 500K per member is.
Allinces/corps should have a tax on members that becomes an ISK sink Ie 100m per month per member which would encourage corps to ditch dead beats and prevent them from filling up with alts to boost the price of war. It would also make alting much harder for no profitable reason. |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Devore Sekk wrote:Aesheera wrote:Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge. Wut? Half decent mercs aren't cheap. Hiring a bunch of bozos with some PvP ships is just throwing your money away, especially without neutral rr. You miss my point, the influx of people offering themselves as mercs is going to skyrocket and honestly, why would a decced corp even care if the people that offer themselves for free are worth their salt?
The more they can rally in their defense the better right?
Especially with the 0 limit. Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Ifly Uwalk wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. The 50M base fee isn't the issue. The 500K per member is. Allinces/corps should have a tax on members that becomes an ISK sink Ie 100m per month per member which would encourage corps to ditch dead beats and prevent them from filling up with alts to boost the price of war. It would also make alting much harder for no profitable reason.
A Corp member tax will not work. If it was 100mil per month per member, it would be cheaper to be in an NPC corp and just pay the high tax when you rat or do missions. The shutdown of almost all the player corps would be the only result. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
374
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Ifly Uwalk wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. The 50M base fee isn't the issue. The 500K per member is. Allinces/corps should have a tax on members that becomes an ISK sink Ie 100m per month per member which would encourage corps to ditch dead beats and prevent them from filling up with alts to boost the price of war. It would also make alting much harder for no profitable reason. A Corp member tax will not work. If it was 100mil per month per member, it would be cheaper to be in an NPC corp and just pay the high tax when you rat or do missions. The shutdown of almost all the player corps would be the only result. Not that I agree with the idea per se, but what if the tax was 500,000 ISK per week? You know, exactly what the aggressor would have to pay per member in the case of war? |
Tigris Liono
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aesheera wrote:
Who will even bother wardeccing someone? Heck RvB will probably shutdown with this mechanic since the costs for their - in my opinion - amazing Empire war operation will be nigh unfundable for a prolonged amount of time.
[snip]
Just a thought, but RvB's war is mutual, so it doesn't cost anything (although, I may be misinformed, please feel free to correct me if this is so)
If that option stays with the new system, RvB will be able to carry on as they see fit. |
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Devore Sekk wrote:Aesheera wrote:Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge. Wut? Half decent mercs aren't cheap. Hiring a bunch of bozos with some PvP ships is just throwing your money away, especially without neutral rr.
If my understanding is correct, the defender won't have to pay any fee to bring in allies (ie fee to CONCORD), other than what those allies want. What we'll do (and I suspect many other groups will do) is run around joining decs for free. If you're a defender, why would you ever pay for mercs when a bunch of HS dec corps (many of whom are better than the listed mercs) are willing to jump in for free so they don't have to pay eleventy-billion ISK/week for decs? |
qu1ckkkk
The Warp Core Stabilizers Purgat0ry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aesheera wrote: Limit the number of recruitable allies to 2 corps or a number of people relevant to the aggressors member count in one way or the other. This is the only semi sensible 'proposal' you have :/
Aesheera wrote: Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage.
I suspect someone got some 'suddently logistics' recently? lol. Proposing GCC for this is lame haha. Agression like anything else is fine, but GCC... lol lol |
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
135
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 11:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP's argument is that you should have to pay more to have more targets to shoot at, but the fundamental issue with that is that it provides built in protection for larger entities that should theoretically be able to protect themselves better anyways.
Additionally, the cost scaling with having more targets and being able to fund the war with loot drops under the proposed new model doesn't really scale very well either, even in a best case scenario.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
374
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 11:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:CCP's argument is that you should have to pay more to have more targets to shoot at, but the fundamental issue with that is that it provides built in protection for larger entities that should theoretically be able to protect themselves better anyways.
Additionally, the cost scaling with having more targets and being able to fund the war with loot drops under the proposed new model doesn't really scale very well either, even in a best case scenario. Even worse, CCP is basing this model on a fallacy. The only way it works is if you completely disregard the whole concept of risk and reward. To implement this model without offsetting the fees based on the attacker/defender ratio is complete foolishness. The small corporation that takes on the challenge of attacking a large alliance is severely penalized, while the large alliance taking on the small corporation is rewarded not just with the intrinsic ability to more easily spread the war fee cost amongst its members, but with a much lower fee in general.
It's utterly ridiculous. |
Cannibal Kane
Praetorian Cannibals
351
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 12:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
War cost - remember that the changed version is NOT YET on Sisi, what is on Sisi right now is the original, old changes we implemented before Fanfest. Expect new version tomorrow.
That is the reply I got from CCP when I asked the question regarding the high cost since it was originally raised at fanfest already. I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist.
The Crazy African |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1453
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Aesheera wrote:Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage. No, this is absurd. Just have them take 15 minutes war aggression as they do now, PLUS the 1 minute aggression timer that prevents them from docking or jumping. Then they can no longer escape and are valid targets to the people whose enemies they assisted. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
qu1ckkkk wrote:Aesheera wrote: Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage. I suspect someone got some 'suddently logistics' recently? lol. Proposing GCC for this is lame haha. Agression like anything else is fine, but GCC... lol lol You obviously dont know me and my fields of activity, which is fine. But the fact that you disagree with NEUTRAL logi's needing a fix in general shows you have very little experience in Empire PvP.
Im fine with Logi's, up to the point that it becomes abusive in High Sec in the shapes of neutral rep alts.
It *needs* to be looked at, it's current state is utterly ********. There need to be consequences for using them when theyre not part of your corp/alliance. Make them turn suspect on the spot, aka criminal flagged, semi similar to GCC without Concord and Sentry intervention. That way it returns to the 'what you see is what you get' type of Logi supported PvP. I believe this was already discussed at fanfest and tbh, it would be a very welcome change. Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1453
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Also, this. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Liking. Malum Crusis is recruiting!
FREE Merc work offered*
Details available via EVEmail or ingame convo. |
qu1ckkkk
The Warp Core Stabilizers Purgat0ry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Aesheera wrote: But the fact that you disagree with NEUTRAL logi's needing a fix in general shows you have very little experience in Empire PvP.
Have you actually read what I said? Apart from the fact that your neut logi debate is fail, its off topic.
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: No, this is absurd. Just have them take 15 minutes war aggression as they do now, PLUS the 1 minute aggression timer that prevents them from docking or jumping. Then they can no longer escape and are valid targets to the people whose enemies they assisted.
What this man said is exactly what I agree to. I hope you read this thoroughly before continuing on your off topic rant.
/thread |
NoxiousPluK
Abyssal Frontier Jovian Empire
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Aesheera wrote:Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage. No, this is absurd. Just have them take 15 minutes war aggression as they do now, PLUS the 1 minute aggression timer that prevents them from docking or jumping. Then they can no longer escape and are valid targets to the people whose enemies they assisted. I'm up for this also. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell
117
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
These prices are too much for my merc corp.
And a 4b+/week wardec fee is indeed madness.
1) The base cost is too much. 50m to wardec a one-man corp ? Meh. 2) A linear 500k/toon is a very bad design. LOG FUNCTION TO THE RESCUE (or root). |
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Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
So what (collectively, people in this thread are) saying is that players will only PvP if it's free and doesn't have any consequences?
HTFU! |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
247
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Not incredibly expensive =/= free. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Not incredibly expensive =/= free.
Hey if you're a sissy you can always suicide gank. A properly fit cataclyst only costsl ike 3 mil. |
Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
723
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
I would just like to point out that neither Incursions nor Tier III battlecruisers "went live" on tranquility in the state that they were first seen on singularity. Far from it in fact.
On that note, CCP needs as much forum flaming as possible right now to make sure that these terrible changes do not become the exception, and go live on tranq as is. Bad CCP. Baaaaddd......
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Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
247
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Psychotic Monk wrote:Not incredibly expensive =/= free. Hey if you're a sissy you can always suicide gank. A properly fit cataclyst only costsl ike 3 mil.
I prefer decs, but if suicide ganks is the only tool left to me...
Listen, man. Why do you gotta, like, dictate the way I play, man. Maybe I just wanna dec some people in peace. I pay my fifteen bucks a month too, man. |
Ice Fist
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
145
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:40:00 -
[36] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:So don't deck goons in highsec and move in on their turf. There is realisticly, way more ******* people who may not like them and if all of EVE (if that were to happen) were to focus on goons, they would be crushed like a cat under a monster truck. And you could do it without a wardec fee at all.
Also...GTFO of highsec, problem ******* solved. Been saying that all along if you don't like highsec shenanigans
I made a post about this recently. You see this "could" work. There are certainly enough people who hate us. The problem is you'd have to form a coalition of conflicting eve personalities. Our one great advantage is that we have a singular leader who united our whole alliance and coalition.
That, and we'd be fighting a defensive war. Nothing is more fun than a defensive war. So please do this. |
Goatfather
HOMELE55 Double Tap.
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Aesheera wrote:Aqriue wrote: Also...GTFO of highsec, problem ******* solved. Been saying that all along if you don't like highsec shenanigans
Pretty bad argument. Just because YOU might not enjoy that, empire decs for some is a massive part of their EVE entertainment. There's guys out there that can't stand 0.0 politics and 200 man blob wars, or just don't feel like wasting their sec status just to get a few kills every week.
this |
roboto212
Hull Breach Inc. Double Tap.
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
None of this could be true the contract manager for snatch victory told me so when I raised these same points.
I love the changes the mean my new high sec alliance will be left alone and I will have thousands of mission runners and incursion runners in my corp and alliance. They will be free from war and then some day we to can then do nothing but farm and make isk and hold hands . Does that sound all nice and crude.
Ccp please wake up and help us here. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Goatfather wrote:We should just make one massive merc/war alliance in HS. Push our differences aside if this system actually goes live.
Someone would eventually pool up enough money to wardec all of high sec in that case and all concord "protection" would be stripped for the duration.
Yes it's expensive.. it was meant to be. In this way there is an incentive for seeking out and joining more successful corps rather than starting your own one man corp. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
Griefing should be easy, free, and safe to do.
Any changes that add risk, danger, cost, or effort to griefing are bad and should be flamed. |
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Aleksander Erkkinen
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Oh lord, I sincerely hope that, in the event that this does hit TQ exactly as on the tin, that the bears all form one massive "undeccable" alliance and laugh at their brilliance. Every missioner, ratter, miner, ect to drive up war dec costs to unimaginable highs... because 2.2 seconds later, someone in the CFC would wardec them and invite all of Eve to join in the massacre for free. The influx of lulz, rage and emotears would blot not just the sun, but every sun in new eden. Burn Jita and Hulkageddon would be pennies on the dollar compared to the wholesale slaughter that would follow.
Now that would be fun... but I doubt it would happen.
Honestly, I agree with the opinion that all the 500k fee does is punish david, since poor old goliath needs so much help from the devs. It's there to kill any chance of a return of something like the PVTR era, because we absolutely must keep highsec safe for the bears, mustn't we? |
Bane Nucleus
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 20:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
War is for mean people |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3040
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
the one fix this needs is to be able to shoot anyone in your alliance without being concorded |
Tarsas Phage
Pain Delivery.
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 22:39:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aesheera wrote: Neutral logistics. End this. Make out of corp Logi's suspects for anyone to agress, or better yet, give them GCC. The amount of neutral RR seen as an over(ab)used tactic has gotten way out of hand. There's ways to deal with this ofcourse, but i personally feel that use of Logi's should be restricted to in-alliance/in-corp usage.
Neutral logis are already no longer neutral once they start doing their job. Why are you not shooting them? Why are you not even accounting for their possibility in the first place?
If you've got your undies in a twist over neutral logis, then you might as well also rail against out-of-corp baiting BSes that have a cyno with a bridging titan on the other end elsewhere and any number of other tactics that depend on such surprises.
/T |
Bane Nucleus
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 00:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:
If you've got your undies in a twist over neutral logis, then you might as well also rail against out-of-corp baiting BSes that have a cyno with a bridging titan on the other end elsewhere and any number of other tactics that depend on such surprises.
/T
While I understand the point you are trying to make, this isn't exactly comparing apples to apples. In order for the baiting BS to work as you suggested, you have to be in low/null sec where you can be attacked anytime, not just when you rep someone.
As far as neutral rr goes, I am not around it enough to care too much. That said, I can see why some people have issue with it.
|
Zills
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 00:11:00 -
[46] - Quote
Goatfather wrote:[quote=Eternal Error] I do not think CCP is dumb, I feel CCP is making a choice based on what they felt was good. What means they utilized to decide what is good, who knows.
Crack kills, even game developers.
|
SB Rico
the united Negative Ten.
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 04:43:00 -
[47] - Quote
Am i the only one to have already considered a per member cost can easily be abused if every member uses their 3 slots to join a corp then creates a rolling string of trial characters to push their corp "membership" to ridiculous levels.
500 man corps with 1 RL person here we come... |
Aleksander Erkkinen
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 05:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
SB Rico wrote:Am i the only one to have already considered a per member cost can easily be abused if every member uses their 3 slots to join a corp then creates a rolling string of trial characters to push their corp "membership" to ridiculous levels.
500 man corps with 1 RL person here we come... I don't think trial accounts work to inflate numbers. I read that somewhere as either a quote from CCP or a dev blog, but I don't remember where so take it with a grain of salt. It does mean that someone with a lot of accounts (like, say, a botter) can avoid decs by alting up his corp. Same with particularly successful corps - you know, the ones that competition would target - they can use their surplus isk for plex to make their corps undeccable through numbers. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
The per-member price is a bit insane. A small corporation deccing a bigger corp/alliance is already at a disadvantage in numbers, but now they get screwed isk-wise, and the other side of that is big alliances have an easier time attacking small corps (especially if the stacking is removed, which some have said it is/will be)
oh well whatever, I havent been in a war eons. Wormholes4lyf |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
136
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:22:00 -
[50] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:Tarsas Phage wrote:
If you've got your undies in a twist over neutral logis, then you might as well also rail against out-of-corp baiting BSes that have a cyno with a bridging titan on the other end elsewhere and any number of other tactics that depend on such surprises.
/T
While I understand the point you are trying to make, this isn't exactly comparing apples to apples. In order for the baiting BS to work as you suggested, you have to be in low/null sec where you can be attacked anytime, not just when you rep someone. As far as neutral rr goes, I am not around it enough to care too much. That said, I can see why some people have issue with it.
While I understand the point you are trying to make, this isn't exactly comparing apples to apples. In order for the neutral logistics to work as you suggested, there has to be an active war target which can be shot anytime, not just when the titan bridges the fleet.
Because we all know that being able to hide your entire fleet an entire region away, is much easier to counter and plan for than being able to "hide" a couple logistics ships sitting on the top of a station that show up on your overview.
While I think that neutral logi needs to be fixed and is a bad mechanic, which will be fixed with the 60 second aggression timer. If you really want to get into bad game design that ruins potential good fights, why not talk about the Titan bridge, which even small 100 man pirate alliances have at least one of nowadays. Whats the value of roaming or camping with a gang when you know its only inevitable that your gang will get bridged on? Why would you ever want to go roaming when you have titan bridge capabilities and can cover a whole region at a time with alts? The only reason we don't hear more about Titan bridges being OP is because pretty much every major alliance nowadays uses them so frequently, that if you took them out of the game they wouldn't be able to PVP anymore because it would be *gasp* effort.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
|
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:42:00 -
[51] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. You must be new. Go take a look at the bounty system or faction warfare or captains quarters. |
Plekto
Aliastra Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
So everyone creates an alt and presto - Goons or whatever alliance suddenly has... double the fee to war dec? Fail.
The proper way to deal with it is to have a formula where the cost is inversely proportional to difference between your sizes,with a percentage limit. And make it based upon paid accounts, not characters. ie - you can have 8 accounts in your alliance, but you only count as one person in that fee calculation.
That way it would, for instance, tell a small alliance of 20 (actual credit cards on file) people that they are too small to war dec Goons (and vice-versa - tiny alliances are too small for them to go after)
But once you pass that threshold, smaller guys should have no difficulty in going after larger targets. Partially because the larger targets are almost certain to win the fight,but also to encourage smaller groups to go after the giants (Goons just being the current big target, not that they will be the last large alliance, either.) in the game and thereby hopefully break some of the stagnation that has infected the game. And large alliances going after each other should be full cost, since they can obviously afford it and it's a potential game-changing event. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Why would anyone waste time declaring war on TEST or Goons? These groups are already irrelevant, and a wardec is not required to pew pew them. Or any null-holding alliance.
For hi-sec this won't be that big of a deal. Just HTFU about it. |
Rezig Huruta
AD ASTRA Interstellar
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:02:00 -
[54] - Quote
I'm not quite sure I understand the war dec costs... particularly in respect to the price per member.
Why does the member count of the TARGET cost 500k? Shouldn't it be the member count of the deccing corp? You know, the cost of managing a large corporation for war should be based on the number of members.
That, and if corps are allowed 3 wars, shouldn't getting HELP as a defender use up one slot?
For instance:
Corp Monsta Stompas has 10 members and declares a single war on Orange Pukers. That costs 50m + 500k x 10 = 55m.
Orange Pukers have 100 members and two wars against other corps. Orange Pukers can use their last 'war slot' to hire a merc corp or bring some other corp into the war against monster stompers (thus filling all 3 war slots).
In summary: The size of the TARGET ought not matter. It should be the size of the deccing corporation for cost. The defender can hire X allies, each ally filling one of the defender's war dec slots.
|
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
179
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:35:00 -
[55] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place.
After what I've seen done with the Anom nerf & the Incursion NERF I've come to learn that underestimating CCP's dumb bonheadedness when it comes to overboard NERFing is a mistake Unintentional bug Working as IntendedGäó...-á-á http://i.imgur.com/aYOL1.jpg
|
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
990
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:4,2 billions to war dec goons.
This is madness.
Madness is paying to kill Goons, when you can fly into 0.0 and do it for free.
Everyone in High Sec is absolutely inconsequential to everyone in Null Sec, your 'wars' have little to no impact on the grand scheme of anything; the only visible annoyance you get for paying your wardec fee's now is a glowing mail icon that annoys a few hundred people, and thats about it.
Pinky Feldman wrote:CCP's argument is that you should have to pay more to have more targets to shoot at, but the fundamental issue with that is that it provides built in protection for larger entities that should theoretically be able to protect themselves better anyways.
None of these entities really care about your wardecs though.
We are however still laughing about that Moar Tears Proteus that died to a Welp Cane (with no point) at 0 on a gate. Most of the time, the people that wardec Goons/TEST don't even destroy ships in equal value to the war dec fee, here's looking at you Double Tap/GOD SQUAD.
Pinky Feldman wrote: ...why not talk about the Titan bridge, which even small 100 man pirate alliances have at least one of nowadays. Whats the value of roaming or camping with a gang when you know its only inevitable that your gang will get bridged on? Why would you ever want to go roaming when you have titan bridge capabilities and can cover a whole region at a time with alts?
Do you have any idea how much it costs in fuel to repeatedly bridge fleets through a titan? There is a metric in place to offset the 'easy mode' titan bridging. Also- its not nearly as common as you think it is; coming from someone that has actually seen a titan.
All the people that have titans, and actively use them in LowSec/NullSec have been doing so for some time, and just about all the residents of those areas have all those pilots on their watch list in one form or another. Essentially, if you get bridged on you either accepted it would possibly happen when you left; you are completely incompetant and ignorant of your local area dwellers; or some strange combination of the two that typically evolved from extreme laziness. In 'Held' SovNull, jumpbridges are often used to out maneuver hostile fleets, a Titan could be used, but Liquid Ozone is pretty cheap.
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Aleksander Erkkinen
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
Xolve wrote: Everyone in High Sec is absolutely inconsequential to everyone in Null Sec, your 'wars' have little to no impact on the grand scheme of anything; the only visible annoyance you get for paying your wardec fee's now is a glowing mail icon that annoys a few hundred people, and thats about it.
Well, according to the devs that's wrong. Most manufacture doesn't happen in nullsec - its actually done wherever it is cheapest in the long run, and that usually means purchasing components and sometimes ore in Jita and transporting them (jump frieghter I believe) into Null - so even if it's a null alt in highsec, its still a toon in highsec influencing their alliance. It's not inconsequential, it's actually a vital part of the supply route.
Now, it is true that must null seccers couldn't give two shticks about highsec exclusive players, but since most ore was coming from mission runners it damn sure influenced nullsec supply. Remember that highsec ore is rarer in nullsec. So they may not of cared, but they do influence null quite directly.
Quote:None of these entities really care about your wardecs though. I don't know of any coordinated efforts to jack up null sec supply routes, probably because a lot of null seccers don't realize how important the supply routes are, a lot of high seccers are too carebear to be aware of this or even care and because of how easy it is to just ship with a blue'd alt leaving the would be gankers/deccers in the dark. Unfortunately that wont change even with the dec change and if the dec change did threaten supply, it'd be no problem to do this more. So of course you wouldn't care. If your supply routes got hit intelligently and precisely, though, you'd care.
Think about it this way: in your corp/alliance, have you ever run the numbers on the average ore/hour you produce (of each type) based on the number of dedicated miners+mining ops? Does it cover the entire production of everything your corp consumes/creates? If not, that ore/material is coming from highsec.
As for titans, I fly NPC null often enough, and have never seen a titan so I wont bother with arguing about them. All I usually see are 20+ man fleets (lul, that's not a small gang) or solo pilots who will not engage. When they do, it's quite fun... but even 1v1 I see more running than fighting, unless they seriously outclass their target (T3 vs T1 frig for instance). I will tip my hat though, to those who have stood their ground, and especially to the one's who've popped me before.
|
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
990
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
Aleksander Erkkinen wrote:Stuff about logistics
We, like many nullsec alliances have ship builders and industrial aligned corps within our organization; they provide many invaluable services (Jump Freighter, Cap Production, T2 Production, Ammo Production, etc) to aide our alliance. Although TEST much like it allies is free from the 'Mandatory' Ops, CTA's and whatevers you see all over the southern block, the only entity up north that even has these that I know of is IRC (who are bad in their own right).
But even with the jump freighter services, its all done on out of alliance alts with a already put in place cyno alt chain (not that its really important as most of Fountain is within JDC V range of three seperate lowsec entrances to Empire.
Aleksander Erkkinen wrote:Think about it this way: in your corp/alliance, have you ever run the numbers on the average ore/hour you produce (of each type) based on the number of dedicated miners+mining ops? Does it cover the entire production of everything your corp consumes/creates? If not, that ore/material is coming from highsec.
I am not the industrial minded person, and often overlook the people that find enjoyment in these mundane and boring tasks, but thankfully we have them, and we also boast one of the best seeded markets in the North because of them; there are also plenty of people, myself included that use Red Frog/Black Frog to import items into the closest lowsec to move onto the market or into our personal hangars.
As it stands right now- I have the utmost faith that my alliance could exist without any interaction with empire space save for maybe infrastructure mods and occasionally fuel for the individuals that don't produce their own. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Kriegman
Raging Ducks Goonswarm Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
It's ironic that highsec dwellers think that wardecs matter to us. All serous industrial players have neutral NPC alts with personal jump freighters for a complete access to any empire market. I think on average day GSF has a dozen or so pubbie wardecs active. It seriously matters not. I chuckle at the idiots that blow their wad thinking it will make a difference if the wardec goons or friends. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:50:00 -
[60] - Quote
The fact that Goonswarm and TEST are some of the main ones leading the charge that war decs are "unfair" says otherwise about the so-called not caring about war decs. Considering the amount of time that you guys spend either saying the mechanics need to be changed or saying that you don't care, I don't think you can deny that it does affect you somehow. Snot Snot might not be truly impacted by things that Goonswarm does, but with the amount of time he spends posting about them you can't deny that he cares about what they do.
Titan bridges being "expensive" to use is a relative term and in a post-Incursion isk faucet EVE, i'd hardly call it cost prohibitive. While if you're smart in a best case scenario you'd watch list everyone you could, you neglect to mention the amount of range they have. Just because I accept that i'm going to get Titan bridged when flying around in null/low doesn't mean its a good game mechanic. Likewise, accepting that you'll be going up against neutral logi in highsec doesn't mean it doesn't ruin potentially good fights.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
|
Kriegman
Raging Ducks Goonswarm Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:00:00 -
[61] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:The fact that Goonswarm and TEST are some of the main ones leading the charge that war decs are "unfair" says otherwise about the so-called not caring about war decs.
Do you have any specific examples as to why we would give a damn about wardecs? Other than catching noobs and idiots that undock their Badger II from jita 4-4, you make no difference to us. In fact I would prefer that entire empire would wardec us so we could roam to highsec and murder you all on regular basis without having to deal with the concord.
|
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:06:00 -
[62] - Quote
Kriegman wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:The fact that Goonswarm and TEST are some of the main ones leading the charge that war decs are "unfair" says otherwise about the so-called not caring about war decs. Do you have any specific examples as to why we would give a damn about wardecs? Other than catching noobs and idiots that undock their Badger II from jita 4-4, you make no difference to us. In fact I would prefer that entire empire would wardec us so we could roam to highsec and murder you all on regular basis without having to deal with the concord.
For starters, the fact that you just wrote me a whole paragraph stating how much you don't care and continually feel the need to voice your opinion on war dec game mechanics and how they should be changed. It seems to me the only person you're trying to convince that you don't care about war decs is yourself.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Kriegman
Raging Ducks Goonswarm Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:16:00 -
[63] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Kriegman wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:The fact that Goonswarm and TEST are some of the main ones leading the charge that war decs are "unfair" says otherwise about the so-called not caring about war decs. Do you have any specific examples as to why we would give a damn about wardecs? Other than catching noobs and idiots that undock their Badger II from jita 4-4, you make no difference to us. In fact I would prefer that entire empire would wardec us so we could roam to highsec and murder you all on regular basis without having to deal with the concord. For starters, the fact that you just wrote me a whole paragraph stating how much you don't care and continually feel the need to voice your opinion on war dec game mechanics and how they should be changed. It seems to me the only person you're trying to convince that you don't care about war decs is yourself.
:palmface You win, have some brawndo, it got electrolytes... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbxq0IDqD04 |
Troll Gremlin
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:32:00 -
[64] - Quote
50m is to much, but a good highsec wardecing corp can still make that up from ransoming and droped loot. But this will kill the small wardecing corps out there as only the biger hardcore corps can make profit off it. If ppl wanna stop wardecing then u should also stop suicide ganking, scaming and just turn eve into a pve game.... As far as big alliance nullsec wardecing whats the point of wardecing in nullsec anyways? Wardecing is for highsec piracy and merc's, most ppl don't wardec just to pvp with another corp as most pvp corps r pirates or in nullsec. |
Dreadmon
Free Imperial Vikings Monkey Circus
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 03:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Needs more work ccp. super bad if it takes bill's to WD big alli's |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
990
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 03:29:00 -
[66] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:
For starters, the fact that you just wrote me a whole paragraph stating how much you don't care and continually feel the need to voice your opinion on war dec game mechanics and how they should be changed. It seems to me the only person you're trying to convince that you don't care about war decs is yourself.
I'm not the one trying to rally the forums because 50m is expensive.
Pinky I know you, all the points you're attempting to half-ass present here are all terrible; Nobody gives a **** about Empire space, there are no 'good fights' in empire space, and I really don't care how buttmad you get about CCP pulling your card to shoot at industrials and noobships relatively ISK free.
Neutral Logi doesn't affect me, or anyone else in my coalition really; what GoonSwarm petitioned or did not petition about in regards to -A-, or THORNE, or whoever that other Alliance was that was using Neutral Logistics and dragging aggression from one party to another comes down to minute details about game mechanics most of us could careless about.
The fact that your Alliance was formed in one big fit of rage because your incompetant CEO at the time couldn't take a verbal lashing from an Alliance Officer in The 0rphanage says alot about you and your organization. I'm sure you will have alot to say in rebuttal to this, but honestly, who cares.
Fly Dangerous (lol get it)
-Aerion/Xolve Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
990
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 03:32:00 -
[67] - Quote
Troll Gremlin wrote:50m is to much, but a good highsec wardecing corp can still make that up from ransoming and droped loot. But this will kill the small wardecing corps out there as only the biger hardcore corps can make profit off it. If ppl wanna stop wardecing then u should also stop suicide ganking, scaming and just turn eve into a pve game.... As far as big alliance nullsec wardecing whats the point of wardecing in nullsec anyways? Wardecing is for highsec piracy and merc's, most ppl don't wardec just to pvp with another corp as most pvp corps r pirates or in nullsec.
It won't ruin High Sec war decs, it will just force you to fight people that actually frequent empire space to fight.
It might actually make you do something more productive then sit on a gate/station in insta-ships whoring onto killmails. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
252
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 08:28:00 -
[68] - Quote
Xolve, *we* care about wardecs. If you don't, then feel free to leave the thread. I mean, really, why are you in the thread if you actually don't care? Do you also go into ice cream shops, stand in line, and tell the dude that you don't give a **** about ice cream and don't want any? Because that's what you just did here, by posting in this thread. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell
117
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 14:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
Xolve wrote:It might actually make you do something more productive then sit on a gate/station in insta-ships whoring onto killmails. Sup sup guys.
|
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
990
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:42:00 -
[70] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Xolve, *we* care about wardecs. If you don't, then feel free to leave the thread. I mean, really, why are you in the thread if you actually don't care? Do you also go into ice cream shops, stand in line, and tell the dude that you don't give a **** about ice cream and don't want any? Because that's what you just did here, by posting in this thread.
Because they are talking about how they will not be able to wardec TEST/Goons primarily, because, you know, they accomplish a whole lot when they do.
Reppyk wrote:Xolve wrote:It might actually make you do something more productive then sit on a gate/station in insta-ships whoring onto killmails. Sup sup guys.
There's backstory behind that; try harder next time, and maybe find a ship I didn't lose on purpose. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
|
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
254
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:51:00 -
[71] - Quote
The point isn't that people want to dec TEST/Goons (although some do), but rather that the dec shield will remain alive and well, and just in another form. |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
991
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:The point isn't that people want to dec TEST/Goons (although some do), but rather that the dec shield will remain alive and well, and just in another form.
The problem here is, CCP although they won't admit it, has an interest in the Empire Carebear way of life, if they neglect them too much it will cost them subscriptions from those that actually enjoy mining and running missions... you know those people who are a complete mystery to the people who post here.
On the other hand, CCP also has a really vested interest in NullSec, because neglecting them can summon forth the rage of a few thousand screaming idiots (as seen in the not so distant past) and can result in the 'death slope' of their subscription base.
If you want to be a bastard, and burn everything to the ground; move to Low-Sec its the last bastion of true EvE 'no fucks given' space; and besides CCP has been shitting on that part of the game for years.
Edit: Also- I remember once upon a time, being in Ad0pt and spending 5-10b ISK a week on war dec fees, so its not that you guys don't have the money, its just that you want as many targets as possible for as little as possible (which I can understand) but unfortunately that cookie is being taken away; You will just have to pick your poisons more carefully.
(I also don't remember many pvp alliances in Empire numbering in the multiple thousands- so I don't see how this is a huge deal) Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Eryn Velasquez
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:09:00 -
[73] - Quote
Troll Gremlin wrote:50m is to much,
No, it's cheap. For a corp it should not take more than 30 minutes, to earn enough to wardec more than 1 opponent.
But still i think, it's wrong to calculate on the membercount, it should depend more on the kills of the members.
If a corp with 1000+ kills on their kb want to dec an R&D or industrial corp with only a handfull on theirs, the price increase should be calculated on the difference between the kills.
This would make it cheaper to wardec corps which fight, and more expensive to dec corps that won't. GÇ£A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.GÇ¥-áGÇò Jean-Jacques Rousseau-á |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
146
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:24:00 -
[74] - Quote
You know ... I like these changes ... Sure the numbers could be tweaked abit but in general wardec shouldnt cost pennies ...
I especially do love it how the elite "mercs" are crying tears about how the industrial corp they plan to grief can tag their military wing to help without added cost. As they should be able to !
Absolutely marvellous and makes rl-sense. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:31:00 -
[75] - Quote
TEST/Goons take this game way too seriously and send an inordinate amount of time posturing apathy on the forums.
The funny part is how they think spending effort on appearing "not to care" will work. |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
991
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 20:25:00 -
[76] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:TEST/Goons take this game way too seriously and send an inordinate amount of time posturing apathy on the forums.
The funny part is how they think spending effort on appearing "not to care" will work.
Oh please let me express my great concern for anything that happens in Empire space, literally anything.
Funny how NPC Corp Alts have a vested interest in TEST or GoonSwarm alliance tags, and any member of those alliances that choose to post something on the forums absolutely must be speaking for the entire alliance. How presumptuous.
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 20:36:00 -
[77] - Quote
Xolve wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:TEST/Goons take this game way too seriously and send an inordinate amount of time posturing apathy on the forums.
The funny part is how they think spending effort on appearing "not to care" will work. Oh please let me express my great concern for anything that happens in Empire space, literally anything. Funny how NPC Corp Alts have a vested interest in TEST or GoonSwarm alliance tags, and any member of those alliances that choose to post something on the forums absolutely must be speaking for the entire alliance. How presumptuous.
Bro, you're the one who has made 5 out of 16 posts on this page alone in a thread about the future of highsec war dec pricing at the time of my posting. You're the one resorting to keep irrelevant personal attacks and responses to things people never said in an obvious attempt to derail the thread and stir up people to respond to you. Like Psychotic Monk said, if you really don't care as much as you claim to, just stop posting in this thread and let people who still care about war decs to discuss them.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
991
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 20:51:00 -
[78] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Bro, you're the one who has made 5 out of 16 posts on this page alone in a thread about the future of highsec war dec pricing at the time of my posting. You're the one resorting to keep irrelevant personal attacks and responses to things people never said in an obvious attempt to derail the thread and stir up people to respond to you. Like Psychotic Monk said, if you really don't care as much as you claim to, just stop posting in this thread and let people who still care about war decs to discuss them.
I'm not trolling, I was pointing out the irony of the Empire Elite PvP types complaining about the cost of wardecing Goons, TEST and other large Nullsec entities when you could simply go to Null yourself and shoot them for free. Then again, if you had the balls to do that, then you would either live in Nullsec or roam there actively and not really pay any attention to the change.
I imagine all the bleating and whining you exude here will be about as effective as your 'Save Jita' project.
Also- Never not rage type Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 22:31:00 -
[79] - Quote
You dont need a wardec to fight Goonswarm.... You're no daisy...you're no daisy at all! |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 22:40:00 -
[80] - Quote
Nobody wants to fight goonswarm at all.
They were using your alliance size as an example of cost scaling for when high sec entities catch on and start to swell in size.. |
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Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
991
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:24:00 -
[81] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Nobody wants to fight goonswarm at all.
They were using your alliance size as an example of cost scaling for when high sec entities catch on and start to swell in size..
The never ending decs against our coalition are contradictory to your sentiments...
Also- you make it seem like putting together a 7-9000 man alliance is simple, if its so easy; then why hasn't highsec rallied under one banner yet? Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
SugarFr33
Beyond Heavy Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:42:00 -
[82] - Quote
I think the key word in that screenshot is the Initial payment.
Might be a lot to dec goons/ big alliance to start, but if its an ongoing war it might work out cheaper?
Just saying |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:51:00 -
[83] - Quote
Xolve wrote:Thomas Kreshant wrote:Nobody wants to fight goonswarm at all.
They were using your alliance size as an example of cost scaling for when high sec entities catch on and start to swell in size.. The never ending decs against our coalition are contradictory to your sentiments... Also- you make it seem like putting together a 7-9000 man alliance is simple, if its so easy; then why hasn't highsec rallied under one banner yet?
Firstly the people here have been talking about current costs for decs on sisi which will be capped most likely.
Now, to making a an alliance of 7k people it's really simple. Make alliance with the appropriate skills, have a ton of corps join. Done.!!!
We're not talking an traditional alliance for doing anything other than simply existing to make decs expensive. They'll have zero to do with each other outside that one use. No alliance ops of any kind, may not even ever chat to each other.
But as I said CCP is likely to cap the costs anyhow so it's all a bit meh.
The nobody wants to fight goonswarm was directed to the 'come to 0.0 and fight us' bit that someone said earlier, he'd need to ask someone other than highsec people if that's what he's after as it ain't happening.
No point replying btw, I'm off to sleep but have a good night Test dude. |
Nicholas Tong
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 00:40:00 -
[84] - Quote
Don't wish to presume or anything but isn't the Offending corps wardecc price be in contrast from their number of member to the targets?, the OPs showing us an example which only has 1 member wardeccing the biggest alliances of the game.
I think from preliminary observation this change wouldn't be a bad idea since you have currently a lot of 1, 2 manned corps with the purpose of hunting down others with around 50 defenseless members, not that I'm trying to defend them, just that the concept of a corporation on the meta-gama should fill its purpose of housing multiple players and not just one along with their alts. |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
991
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 02:29:00 -
[85] - Quote
Nicholas Tong wrote:Don't wish to presume or anything but isn't the Offending corps wardecc price be in contrast from their number of member to the targets?, the OPs showing us an example which only has 1 member wardeccing the biggest alliances of the game.
I think from preliminary observation this change wouldn't be a bad idea since you have currently a lot of 1, 2 manned corps with the purpose of hunting down others with around 50 defenseless members, not that I'm trying to defend them, just that the concept of a corporation on the meta-gama should fill its purpose of housing multiple players and not just one along with their alts.
Pretty sure I read in a devblog somewhere that the 500k addition per member cost was based on active accounts and not an artificially inflated number. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
314
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 03:04:00 -
[86] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Griefing should be easy, free, and safe to do.
Any changes that add risk, danger, cost, or effort to griefing are bad and should be flamed.
Ur stuffs, I can haz?
Braaaaaaaiiin... |
VegasMirage
Instant Reaction Corp Dec Shield
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:35:00 -
[87] - Quote
Goatfather wrote:We should just make one massive merc/war alliance in HS. Push our differences aside if this system actually goes live.
I'm curious what you're criteria would be for this new hi sec merc union. Please expand, if you would. |
Rommell Drako
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming Moar Tears
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 16:34:00 -
[88] - Quote
I think there are alot of different points that are being argued and being mixed together that need to be seperated.
Point 1 The new cost of war dec is too high. The orginal cost of war decs was 50 mil for the first war, 100 mil for second, 150 for 3rd, etc. The new forumla for war deccing has 50 mil as standard plus 300k per member with a depreciating amount to create a cap.
Formula: (log2.05831 N)^2 * 300000 * N^0.27 where N = number of members.
This has created a curve cap putting the cost (roughly) of deccing a 1k member at 200 mil, 3k members at 350mil, 4k+ at 500mil.
What this means is that the old war dec style of prvters, adopt, moar tears, etc which was the dec 10 large alliances to give plenty of targets to shoot at gave you the cost of deccing 10 alliance (goons, test, AAA, nulli, etc) total cost of 2.75 bil.
With the new cost to war to dec the same alliances would cost (to dec goons, test, AAA, etc) 500mil+500mil+ 470mil, etc... giving you a total of 5 bil to dec the same people. Doubling the cost of the war dec.
(personally i dont care, its easy to adjust and adapt and move on with eve. What makes me question ccps intelligence and their target market of protect people so they dont quit so we keep making money so we can finish our vampire game, is that they claim inferno is a pro war update... yet it doubles the cost of war, and is going to remove vast quanties of players that currently do war...)
Point 2 Come fight us at our home in 00 ***. Yes we could just as easliy fly to your staging systems and fight you there. But we dont have 200 man drake fleets, with 100 man mael alpha fleets, with 2 titan bridges, a capital fleet, and a batphone to PL. We just dont care for the large fights of, shoot primary, pray you dont get shot cuss you will get alphaed, and then the fight is over for you... we prefer the small gang, skill oriented pvp. Also why come to you when we can just kill your 10bil JFs and your 4.2 bil rifters with slave sets in cargo :)
Point 3 high sec under 1 banner This has not been required or even worth it since the costs of war have always been the same. But now with the new costs the people that use to war dec 10 large will now dec 1 large and 9 small to keep their target numbers high enough. (this is all predicted and my personal thoughts, might not be true) Eventually bears will get smart and realize that they can properly dec shield by just all gathering together. make the cost too high and people wont pay for it. (there will probably be 4-10 super large high sec alliances to prevent the idea of dec 1 banner and get to shoot all of high sec)
TLDR Point 1 = new prices double cost of war. Changes will be made, people will adapt. Inferno is not pro war, CCP needs to protect its cash flow... Point 2= Keep saying come to 00, we hope you enjoy your capitals and titan bridges. We all see how alot of the 00 alliances cant fight with out their fcs and huge numbers. I would be shocked and awed (and forced to make a public thread apology) if i ever fought a small group of 00 people that fought well in a small gang and killed me. Point 3= bears get smarter every day. CCP is doing all they can to protect them.
Please argue each point seperatly, i dont want to have to attempt to follow noob / tard / autistic logic |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
219
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 17:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
Quote: (personally i dont care, its easy to adjust and adapt and move on with eve. What makes me question ccps intelligence and their target market of protect people so they dont quit so we keep making money so we can finish our vampire game, is that they claim inferno is a pro war update... yet it doubles the cost of war, and is going to remove vast quanties of players that currently do war...)
The vast quantities of players that do war sit on station all day in Jita or another market hub waiting for some idiot to undock. This is not war, it's a gank fest. This is not PvP, it's the same as shooting rats in a level 4 mission in complete safety of a station. This is not EVE, it's some depressing game of sitting in one spot all day.
What CCP needs to do is increase the aggression timers for docking to 15 minutes, then war shall be interesting. (They actually discussed the possibility of doing so to make timers uniform). |
Ashera Yune
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 17:55:00 -
[90] - Quote
The current war mechanics are boring, i think a bit of spicing up is what it needs.
Allow cynos and supercapitals and capitals to work in highsec.
If highsec pvpers want true PVP, they should be given the experience of a nullsec 0.0 hotdrop and 1000 man fleets that will fill up the highsec systems.
Highsec will become the new 0.0, WAR IS EVERYWHERE!!111!!!!11
High pvpers are cowards who use neutral alts who have protection from concord as easy to use scouts and assists. You can't do that anywhere else.
Since the pvp in highsec is less risky, it should be more costly, after all Concord is providing security.
While is other space its is the players that Provide security. |
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Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
129
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 18:38:00 -
[91] - Quote
A lot of **** in this thread not even worth arguing about. When you make high sec war pointless or tedious to do people will go find a new game. No one is migrating out to null to be an alliance pet. If thats the goal so be it. The game is already tedious to the point of ridiculousness. There is no way to force conflict, no real stealth mechanic and now this company expects people to pay more for a useless war dec? I guess they figure more plex will be bought. Keep dreaming. The only thats going to be accomplished is people quitting out of boredom.
I took my sub off of auto renew im good to the 30th so we'll see how it goes. But the fact is you can look at the changes and see exactly who CCP favors. |
Commit Sudoku
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 18:50:00 -
[92] - Quote
****, 4b, that's almost one tech moon |
Tora Bushido
Count With Teddy Mercenaries Stay Calm Don't Panic
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:04:00 -
[93] - Quote
So when are we going to group up as mercs ? Wouldn't it be fun to have a large group of mercs joining one single alliance Then we could really do some major damage. My resists to bad posts are 78-89-83-90 ....... The metal head plate increased it by 5%.
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Reppyk
The Black Shell
120
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:12:00 -
[94] - Quote
Tora Bushido wrote:So when are we going to group up as mercs ? Wouldn't it be fun to have a large group of mercs joining one single alliance Then we could really do some major damage. Highsec PVP, Inferno version : the blob is coming (to you. And your market hub.) |
Ohanka
The Lone Patrol Tactical Narcotics Team
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 16:26:00 -
[95] - Quote
Ifly Uwalk wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Is this 50m starting for a corporation of any size? That's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think CCP is dumb enough to put a system like that in place. The 50M base fee isn't the issue. The 500K per member is.
its not a problem at all. |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 16:27:00 -
[96] - Quote
Goatfather wrote:[quote=Goatfather]We should just make one massive merc/war alliance in HS. Push our differences aside if this system actually goes live.
This is a great opportunity if only the carebears (I'm a part-time carebear) can get over the "someone else in charge" thing and get together to form a large alliance. |
LittleTerror
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:53:00 -
[97] - Quote
500k per member is just a little too high imo, oh and what's going to stop people using their 3 character slots to fill up the corp? |
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos En Garde
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 22:20:00 -
[98] - Quote
stop crying already, oh buhu some isk leaves the game good thing. |
Tess La'Coil
Lightbringer's Sanctuary Fatal Ascension
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 10:37:00 -
[99] - Quote
Devore Sekk wrote:Aesheera wrote:Im fine with upping the costs, but I don't think anyone is looking forward to have a corp-vs-corp dec cost rougly 100m a dec (considering 50 member average) - pre-stacking fee - only to see the enemy attract every merc corp in the bloody universe to jump in on the fight at 0 cost other than what mercs themselves will charge. Wut? Half decent mercs aren't cheap. Hiring a bunch of bozos with some PvP ships is just throwing your money away, especially without neutral rr. Sure, they aren't cheap atm.. but if they can get "free fights" defending someone that is decced this becomes an incentive over having to Dec someone at cost. In that regard I'd expect the Mercs to drop their costs to get the fights. Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother.-á |
Chrisfaren
Abyssal Frontier Jovian Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 11:51:00 -
[100] - Quote
I think this will drastically reduce the number of small industrial (alt) corps in hs/low, who only build **** for profit on the market in their pos's and farm moons. Seeing people will prolly look for the cheapest wardecks in the beginning of this change.
The market will feel it and it will force solo people either to go for npc corp or join bigger corps for a more "social gameplay"
Good or bad? I for one dont really care. |
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MAPUHO4KA
Alekhine's Gun Drunk 'n' Disorderly
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 15:16:00 -
[101] - Quote
wrote:. we prefer the small gang, skill oriented pvp. Also why come to you when we can just kill your 10bil JFs and your 4.2 bil rifters with slave sets in cargo :) Oh the irony.
At one moment, you claim to fly under the banner of "small gang skill oriented" pvp only to boast immediately afterwards that you really are primarily interested in JFs and rifters at Jita 4-4 undock.
Are you hearing yourself? |
March rabbit
Trojan Trolls Red Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 15:56:00 -
[102] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Psychotic Monk wrote:Not incredibly expensive =/= free. Hey if you're a sissy you can always suicide gank. A properly fit cataclyst only costsl ike 3 mil. I prefer decs, but if suicide ganks is the only tool left to me... Listen, man. Why do you gotta, like, dictate the way I play, man. Maybe I just wanna dec some people in peace. I pay my fifteen bucks a month too, man. it doesn't work well for carebears so why should it work for you? HTFU - golden rule of Eve |
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