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Bryce Lester
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:35:00 -
[1]
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
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GPszith
Gallente Gypsy Productions
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:41:00 -
[2]
You will get several responses to this..but it really boils down to dealing with what people throw your way. They know how to make a profit (or they will lose money) based on what they are doing.
Your job is to work around that. -------------------------------------------------- -GPszith
wtb a sig |
Eliana d'Arlene
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:43:00 -
[3]
Buddy... deal. Some trader just don't have time for 0.01 isk war. They want to buy you off the market. I do that all the time and I see a bunch of my competitors drop the race. Wait for few hours.. and you can safely lower your buy orders again.
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Sasha Kiki
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:44:00 -
[4]
higher buy order = faster.
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Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:49:00 -
[5]
Dear Bryce,
Please consult the 3rd and 4th posts in this thread.
In Eve, volume is king for profit. If my goal is to pull down, say, 250m a day, I'm going to need to turn over a lot of goods.
Also, my short term profit is always aided by a lack of competition.
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Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:50:00 -
[6]
Also, you could just bid 650,000.01
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Sola Veritas
Minmatar Galactic Master Business academy
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Posted - 2009.04.06 03:23:00 -
[7]
There is always a method to the madness.
Wellą almost always.
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Aviditas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 03:52:00 -
[8]
I play the market about 80% of my time in EVE. As a previous poster said, they throw around financial muscle (but not much brain) because they 'dont have time for the .01 isk game.' That quote is all you need to know to defeat such people. If you really cant figure the solution from such a blatant hint, the market is not for you.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.06 05:38:00 -
[9]
Because you won't remove anybody from your market by playing .01 ISK games. The fact you and countless others get ****ed when it happens further proves why its a valid strategy.
Less competition = less hassle and more profit *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.06 05:50:00 -
[10]
press the buy order up? and then sell out? some traders will pay handsomely to get rid of you fast.. This is a signature not related to EVE |
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Hibatchi
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Posted - 2009.04.06 06:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Artemis Rose Because you won't remove anybody from your market by playing .01 ISK games. The fact you and countless others get ****ed when it happens further proves why its a valid strategy.
Less competition = less hassle and more profit
One of the sillier comments Ive seen made on this board. Of course you can drive people from a market .01 isk at a time. In fact its when I see some fool driving prices up or down in big chunks tha I take special care to snake his but right out of that market. He's looking for the easy no hassle trade and I make very sure its doesnt happen.
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 07:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bryce Lester Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
Endless discussion here mate.I agree with you 100% yet most people in here hate the 0.01 game and some even find it 'disrespectfull'.
Besides regional orders i have one character in jita for the occasional profit-items.At most i have 15 orders in jita running.Last week i had 2 items making a profit of 300k and we had that going for bout 5 days with 3 guys.Just adding the 0.01 every time and giving each other a nice profit in between.Then someone jumps in and makes it a 50k profit killing a high profit item.Fine now some might say: he kills competition this way.NO all the others including me still felt a 50k profit was good enough and now we have 4 guys fighting over a 50k instead of a 300k profit and all playing the 0.01 since the profits not worth giving in any mark ups.
This happens every week.
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Black Mack
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Posted - 2009.04.06 07:50:00 -
[13]
I've noticed that this is an especially common problem when dealing with items that aren't manufactured. Mission runners do not have much stake in maintaining a stable price for an item, and they are prone to undercut each other by large percentages to sell their items off quickly. Get enough mission runners together, and you have the lemming effect at it's best. It's frustrating for us, because we live in the margins between buy and sell orders. I believe this is an important part of being a trader, though: we need to be able to impose some sort of order on the market, either by holding an item's price stable, or manipulating it with a long-term plan in mind. Somebody undercuts the market by a significant amount, I just buy him up and relist. Somebody drives the buy orders up too high, I get them cheaper somewhere else and drive his prices down again. I like to think of myself as a gardener, growing isk in my backyard
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Buga Buga
Sajuuk Fleet Crimson Dragons
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Posted - 2009.04.06 10:59:00 -
[14]
Some are trading (.01 isk) some are buying (+100k isk) :) Same goes for selling, some trade some sell. Those that trade keep the .01 rule, those that buy add 100k
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:19:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/04/2009 11:19:26 Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid people's buy orders who outbid by 100k at a time, by only 1 isk? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the I put up 600,000, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 600,001, and then another genius at 600,002, killing their substantial profit at the ignorance of the fact I clearly want to buy it more than they do, and I'm willing to sacrifice profit while I'm at it.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple 1-isk out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising all buy orders above mine, forcing me to undercut again by 100k because I desperately need that item.
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Shintai
Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:34:00 -
[16]
And the 0.01 to 1 isk increase is what? ******ed like hell?
I¦m one of those that does a higher increase or decrease. Simply because most sellers/buyers run tradebots thats easy to fool. --------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Ms Delerium on 06/04/2009 11:41:29 "They did it for the lulz"
This thread is the proof marketcrashing can be funny as it generates hatemails and hateposts!!
Dont get me wrong I know what you feel. I have been in both sides of this, I usually like to experience all the parts of the game to enrich my experience.
Try yourself crashing some market and get big laughs, and sometimes profit. Funniest thing is watching all the lemmings go to 600,000.01 then you set buy order at 656,777.71 and they go 656,777.72 LMAO so pathetic how you control them
Now apart from the lulz factor, think of the profits. Specially with sell orders. Everybody is selling at 750,000isk (0.01 wars) while buy orders are at 500,000. Now you can sell lets say 100items at an average price, for example 650,000isk. There is a big probability one of the 750k sellers dont wanna be a lemming and just buy all your stuff in order to remove "your moronic undercut". Congrats, you have done 65millions. Big, big laughs and profits if you come back again and set a new 100x sell order at 650,000 isk
In the end market is PVP and provides lot of entertainment and rage on the process
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:55:00 -
[18]
Quote:
This thread is the proof marketcrashing can be funny as it generates hatemails and hateposts!!
This really :)
I *can't* be at the computer 24/7 to babysit my orders, and I *know* the only reason people do that is to ensure they get the sales with as little reduction in profit as possible.
With that in mind, I stand no chance of ever staying the cheapest sell order, so I smash your profits to bits. If you really want to follow me lower to keep getting the sales, go for it. If you cry about it, I'll pour your tears into a glass and enjoy them just like I do with every other person who cries about people who undercut by more than 1/0.01 ISK.
You **** me off with your 24/7 babysitting, I'm just getting even, not angry
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Midas Man
Caldari Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.04.06 12:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Bryce Lester Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
Expanded Cargohold II sell for 1.5-2mil a peice in alot of high sec stations fairly quickly. Alot of regional traders will move Tech II items from jita else where. They will try to buy as quickly as possible, If you 0.01isk them you hurt your profit more than you hurt theirs so thereofre they will usually hit you for another 50K etc. Even taking prices to the sell price, they will still see a profit and will see your post too double win
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Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.04.06 13:38:00 -
[20]
You presume you need the item more then them. If so, buy it from a seller.
Also, trading is a form of PvP. It's not about fairness, it's about making as much money as possible-- preferably while bankrupting your competition in the process.
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:17:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
This thread is the proof marketcrashing can be funny as it generates hatemails and hateposts!!
This really :)
I *can't* be at the computer 24/7 to babysit my orders, and I *know* the only reason people do that is to ensure they get the sales with as little reduction in profit as possible.
With that in mind, I stand no chance of ever staying the cheapest sell order, so I smash your profits to bits. If you really want to follow me lower to keep getting the sales, go for it. If you cry about it, I'll pour your tears into a glass and enjoy them just like I do with every other person who cries about people who undercut by more than 1/0.01 ISK.
You **** me off with your 24/7 babysitting, I'm just getting even, not angry
For sell orders i understand this but as i explained for buy orders at times i don't.I run 500-ish orders at the moment of wich bout 30% is heavy competitive.Competitors have brought the profit per item from 300% to only 40% yet still the same people are bidding on it.Also below those orders there are NO orders standing so if the 0.01isk game was played we'd still have the same volume shared over the same traders but with a MUCH higher profit.And THAT i do not understand.
If you want the competition to go you make the profit too little for others to even bother , now i mostly see a verry high decrease in profit but still enough for the competition to join.This makes no sence.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:32:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/04/2009 14:33:21
Quote:
For sell orders i understand this but as i explained for buy orders at times i don't.I run 500-ish orders at the moment of wich bout 30% is heavy competitive.Competitors have brought the profit per item from 300% to only 40% yet still the same people are bidding on it.Also below those orders there are NO orders standing so if the 0.01isk game was played we'd still have the same volume shared over the same traders but with a MUCH higher profit.And THAT i do not understand.
If you want the competition to go you make the profit too little for others to even bother , now i mostly see a verry high decrease in profit but still enough for the competition to join.This makes no sence.
Why are you so centric around profit being the only reason behind placing a buy order? If you stopped being so narrow minded it might start to make sense to you.
I suggest re-reading the first response:
Quote: You will get several responses to this..but it really boils down to dealing with what people throw your way. They know how to make a profit (or they will lose money) based on what they are doing. Your job is to work around that.
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Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:41:00 -
[23]
I'm absolutely one of the people the OP is referring to. I'm not a trader, I just need a limited amount of raw materials per week to keep my production lines rolling. For that, I'll increase buy orders aggressively until the order is filled.
Yea, I know what you're going to say, I'm ignoring profits I could be making from being "wiser" with my trading, I don't care, I've got better things to do with my time. And no, I can't just grab sell orders as some of the products I'm buying typically aren't well-stocked on the sell side.
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Etara Silverblade
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:44:00 -
[24]
What the OP is missing is that someone has to want to sell to these buy orders instead of placing a sell order. If I see a buy order for 500,000 (or anything close) and the sale orders are around 700,000 isk then there's more chance that I'll just place a sales order instead. But if someone wants the goods and puts in the buy order at 600,000 isk then I might consider it. So by placing a higher buy order they aren't just ensuring that they get the item, but that they get more of the items since people are more likely to sell to buy orders and not place their own sale orders and lower the price.
So by placing buy orders closer to the sale orders you are increasing your profit because you'll be able to turn over a larger amount of goods in a shorter time frame.
(The other factors of not being in it for profit are also valid, some people place buy orders because they want the goods and they just don't want to pay the sale prices.)
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:54:00 -
[25]
Edited by: flakeys on 06/04/2009 14:55:27
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/04/2009 14:33:21
Quote:
For sell orders i understand this but as i explained for buy orders at times i don't.I run 500-ish orders at the moment of wich bout 30% is heavy competitive.Competitors have brought the profit per item from 300% to only 40% yet still the same people are bidding on it.Also below those orders there are NO orders standing so if the 0.01isk game was played we'd still have the same volume shared over the same traders but with a MUCH higher profit.And THAT i do not understand.
If you want the competition to go you make the profit too little for others to even bother , now i mostly see a verry high decrease in profit but still enough for the competition to join.This makes no sence.
Why are you so centric around profit being the only reason behind placing a buy order? If you stopped being so narrow minded it might start to make sense to you.
I suggest re-reading the first response:
Quote: You will get several responses to this..but it really boils down to dealing with what people throw your way. They know how to make a profit (or they will lose money) based on what they are doing. Your job is to work around that.
Ok so then open my mind and enlighten me.
I am running these orders for 6 months.I have been getting a crapload of volume , same as now.Only difference is one person decides to place the orders much higher.
So volume-same Number of competitors-same Profit-WAY less
I know they are making a profit , as am i and also know they could make a lot more profit as i did.I am not here to complain because i am still making verry good profit specially since i have multiple regions under my wing and this example only goes for one region.Way i worked around it is take a 3rd region.
Now you open my mind without giving one-sentence remarks and actually explain to me why does someone let go of a 200% or more return knowing they won't kill competition nor get better volumes.
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HawkBlade
Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.06 15:07:00 -
[26]
I am not one who destroys markets simply because I can though it should be said that this is a valid reason. I will, however, destroy a market that I'm leaving once I've gotten out of it what I want. Doing so serves two purposes:
Firstly, it is a fond farewell to all my competitors who have made my life so rewarding while I was with them. Nothing fills my heart with warmth like repaying people so deserving of my love.
Secondly, often I point out that one does not necessarily lose if someone else wins. Yet in market PvP leaving the field to those still at it allows for someone to possibly reap even greater rewards than you yourself did. And it is hard to know if their winning today is going to be the cause of you losing tomorrow... so you block them. For a time at least.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 15:34:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Now you open my mind without giving one-sentence remarks and actually explain to me why does someone let go of a 200% or more return knowing they won't kill competition nor get better volumes.
Because they kill 200% of their competitions profits to boot? Just one reason for starters.
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Creepin
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Posted - 2009.04.06 15:47:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Creepin on 06/04/2009 15:48:10
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/04/2009 11:19:26 Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid people's buy orders who outbid by 100k at a time, by only 1 isk? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the I put up 600,000, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 600,001, and then another genius at 600,002, killing their substantial profit at the ignorance of the fact I clearly want to buy it more than they do, and I'm willing to sacrifice profit while I'm at it.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple 1-isk out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising all buy orders above mine, forcing me to undercut again by 100k because I desperately need that item.
It's because those who sell should humbly sell to the buy order, and those who buy should likewise humbly buy from sell order and be happy with it, leaving changing price to those who trade - simple as that.
When I was trading on market, I hated it when me and 10 other traders do our quiet 0.01 isk dance and then all of sudden some genious pops in and undercut for 10 mill because he's not here to trade but to sell (or buy). I always try to undercut such guy for mocking 0.01 isk as hard as possible just to teach him a simple lesson: if you come to sell, sell to buy order and don't meddle with our isk game, same for buy.
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 16:11:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
Now you open my mind without giving one-sentence remarks and actually explain to me why does someone let go of a 200% or more return knowing they won't kill competition nor get better volumes.
Because they kill 200% of their competitions profits to boot? Just one reason for starters.
Now i return the question : are you reading what's typed.
Still the same regional traders-still the same volume for everyone only difference is profit per item is way down because one guy thought he'd kill competition by raising his amount a LOT.What he didn't do was raise it so much that it is allmost unprofitbale. Hence why still the same competition as before he entered.The volume also is still the same because the station orders where a lot higher from the start so he didn't eliminate any of those either.
That is what i want to know: why kill your profit but not enough to ensure you kill the competition.
So again without one liners-wich you did again.EXplain in detail why someone would kill profit but not enough to kill competition and/or make more volume.Because THAT is what my original post was about and still is my biggest question.
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Isaac Swift
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:04:00 -
[30]
I can think of two reasons why people would raise buy order prices high enough to hurt profits, but not high enough to kill competition. First: they think they are getting rid of competition, but they underestimated the other traders tenacity. When I first started trading, I thought that undercutting my competitors by 100isk or a thousand isk would be enough to make them back off. I understand now that people operate by degrees- if you do not undercut by enough, they will still be forced to undercut you. Movement is more important than that 20% drop in profits you initiated, and people will lemming the profit margin of an item down to 0%, as long as each undercut is a small one. Death by a thousand razors, if you will.
The second reason is of course market manipulation. I can think of a couple of ways in which inflating the regional buy orders can be profitable, and likely someone is taking advantage of that.
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