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sitar seaton
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
The main problem that tech 2 bpos present to the economy of eve is that they are researchable. This makes them inherently vastly more profitable than invention, so much so that in one market research report it was determined that 60% of all tech 2 ships were built from Tech 2 bpos, not through invention.
The easiest solution to this dilemma is to allow invented tech 2 bpcs to match the research of the underlying tech 1 bpo.
Problem solved! |
Velicitia
Open Designs
916
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
270
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
To have a solution, requires a problem. The is no problem with T2 BPOs. There is a problem with your reading of the data you site though.
Please stop with these threads. It's all been done a hundred times already with the same result. Nothing. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
35
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Inventors can build any item they want.
Inventors choose to invent the items have the largest profits.
If inventors are not making a certain item, that means that the profits are small, and inventors do not WANT to build this item.
There is no problem. |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
33
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
this is "Brewlar Kuvakei" btw. and a part of his Crusade against T2 BPO`s.
plu close this thread anyway, there are 3 threads alread that he is shitting up with his T2BPO moaning already https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=93154&find=unread |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
270
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:this is "Brewlar Kuvakei" btw. and a part of his Crusade against T2 BPO`s. I figured as much. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Velicitia
Open Designs
917
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:this is "Brewlar Kuvakei" btw. and a part of his Crusade against T2 BPO`s. I figured as much.
dammit, I really need to get "forum alt detection" up to level 5... |
Debiru
Flashpoint Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
7
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
sitar seaton wrote: so much so that in one market research report it was determined that 60% of all tech 2 ships were built from Tech 2 bpos, not through invention. Citation and raw data please. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1081
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
I know I'd be the first to pounce on completely stupid T2 BPO related suggestions, but this isn't one of THOSE. Well, not yet, or not exactly.
Yes, ALLOWING invented BPCs to have a much higher ME/PE level would be an improvement of sorts. But it doesn't even solve the problem I suspect the OP thinks it would solve, however it has different benefits.
No, it will not make invention noticeably more profitable (for the exact same amount of time spent inventing), at least not in the long run, and it will certainly NOT put invention on even footing with BPO manufacture (thanks to invention costs in T1 BPC, datacores and optional decryptor and/or metamodule). Sure, it will make invention slightly more profitable than it is now (especially in the short run), but that's about it. No big "problem solved, invention rules". And it will still suck to invent small stuff thanks to the clickfest.
So what will it do then ? Well, it will slightly decrease T2 item costs (less waste means less moongoo used which means more stuff from the same amount of bottleneck material), decrease moongoo prices (mostly from bottlneneck materials, currently technetium) and offer a larger market share to inventors, allowing more to operate simultaneously, also it will increase demand for datacores (raising their price for a while until people restart harvesting) and last but not least further nerf the RoI of T2 BPOs. Arguably, most (or even all) of the above can be viewed as (mostly) positive things.
Like I said - somewhat of an improvement, but certainly not "problem solved". Additional possible future improvements also depend on what else CCP plans to do with bottleneck moongoo and with datacore harvesting methods. Still, invention will never be on par with T2 BPOs, but it could get close enough to not really matter all that much anymore. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
69
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Posted - 2012.05.03 21:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oh, look, he's posting on an alt now. :-p |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
392
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Posted - 2012.05.03 23:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
/some/ ships mostly come from T2 BPOS. That came up in the twitter feed of CCP Diagoras.
Things like Command ships.
Interestingly, a lot of command ships are selling below material costs. And that's with a perfect BPO (which people don't have as it would take years and years of research)
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/22442/1400/5/0/5 for example (EOS)
However, that's a tiny market.
Are T2 BPOs cheaper to make stuff with? Yes. Are they a lot cheaper? Not so much. Especially with non-ships. Most of the material costs there are from the 'extra' materials, which aren't affected by ME. The main difference is the Invention cost, which the OP's suggestion does nothing to.
Simple answer is: If you can't make a profit on it, don't make it. Not difficult.
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
908
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Posted - 2012.05.04 01:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Akita T wrote:I know I'd be the first to pounce on completely stupid T2 BPO related suggestions, but this isn't one of THOSE. Well, not yet, or not exactly.
Yes, ALLOWING invented BPCs to have a much higher ME/PE level would be an improvement of sorts. But it doesn't even solve the problem I suspect the OP thinks it would solve, however it has different benefits.
Allowing T1 BPC ME/PE levels to have an effect on the output would also make some of the various decryptors much more interesting as you could offset some of their drawbacks by researching your T1 BPO before copying.
The formula that I've always been partial to is:
T2 ME = Sqrt(T1 ME) - 5
It would help narrow the gap in material costs (depending on the T2 item, that can be a big deal or not a big deal).
Lower datacore costs would also help narrow the gap.
Improvements in the invention process would help narrow the gap.
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Dennmoth Ferdier
Zero Gravity Productions
30
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Posted - 2012.05.04 12:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hey Akita!
Were you on a break some time ago? I didn't see you raiding the t2 bpo threads Kuvakei was spamming at first, so I took the liberty of slapping him with that t2 bpo threadnaught of yours. Doubt he read it though. Think he's the blind & deaf preacher type. |
Morgan Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
0
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Posted - 2012.05.04 13:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO.
Verry true... but everyone should have a chance to get one. So until that happens there is a problem. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
920
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Posted - 2012.05.04 13:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Morgan Dinn wrote:Velicitia wrote:there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO. Verry true... but everyone should have a chance to get one. So until that happens there is a problem.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=278
or
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=279
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Morgan Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
0
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Posted - 2012.05.04 13:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
And how many orders of Tech 2 prints did you find in there. I did say EVERYONE. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
273
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Posted - 2012.05.04 13:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Akita T wrote:I know I'd be the first to pounce on completely stupid T2 BPO related suggestions, but this isn't one of THOSE. Well, not yet, or not exactly.
Yes, ALLOWING invented BPCs to have a much higher ME/PE level would be an improvement of sorts. But it doesn't even solve the problem I suspect the OP thinks it would solve, however it has different benefits. Allowing T1 BPC ME/PE levels to have an effect on the output would also make some of the various decryptors much more interesting as you could offset some of their drawbacks by researching your T1 BPO before copying. The formula that I've always been partial to is: T2 ME = Sqrt(T1 ME) - 5 It would help narrow the gap in material costs (depending on the T2 item, that can be a big deal or not a big deal). Lower datacore costs would also help narrow the gap. Improvements in the invention process would help narrow the gap. I like the idea of the T1 me having an effect on the invented blueprint. Right now, research is kind of a boring and while necessary, doesn't really add much to the end game. This would add some complexity to the process and make research a bit more interesting. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2012.05.04 14:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
Morgan Dinn wrote:And how many orders of Tech 2 prints did you find in there. I did say EVERYONE.
everyone has the chance to get one of these prints. Not everyone will be able to afford one. This is EXACTLY how it should be in mostly player controlled market of a sandbox Game. If you want an easy game where everyone has the same Equipment after 3 month, you might aswell try WoW, but please dont try to turn eve into WoW.
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Keia Nomesteturj
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Quote:
everyone has the chance to get one of these prints. Not everyone will be able to afford one. This is EXACTLY how it should be in mostly player controlled market of a sandbox Game. If you want an easy game where everyone has the same Equipment after 3 month, you might aswell try WoW, but please dont try to turn eve into WoW.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, there was not an equal opportunity to receive a t2 bpo as you might expect in a sandbox game. Eve is slowly becoming a linear game with a push toward a null sec "endgame" and favoritism toward the large nullsec corps. The gripe about T2 BPOs is consistent with this. There's a difference between a player-controlled market, and a market controlled by a few players. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
921
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Keia Nomesteturj wrote:Quote:
everyone has the chance to get one of these prints. Not everyone will be able to afford one. This is EXACTLY how it should be in mostly player controlled market of a sandbox Game. If you want an easy game where everyone has the same Equipment after 3 month, you might aswell try WoW, but please dont try to turn eve into WoW.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, there was not an equal opportunity to receive a t2 bpo as you might expect in a sandbox game. Eve is slowly becoming a linear game with a push toward a null sec "endgame" and favoritism toward the large nullsec corps. The gripe about T2 BPOs is consistent with this. There's a difference between a player-controlled market, and a market controlled by a few players.
right, because only a few players can invent. |
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Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO. You weren't around before invention were you? |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
82
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
It's not but I'm glad its spreading. I have my post and to be fair I don't think T2BPO needs more than one post in Science and industry at anyone time. |
March rabbit
Trojan Trolls Red Alliance
169
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Morgan Dinn wrote:And how many orders of Tech 2 prints did you find in there. I did say EVERYONE. you mean you want CCP to add literally 300000 T2 BPO to the game??? |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
82
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
I have many gripes with T2BPO that can be read in my post, listening to arguments against T2BPO and those that support them I believe it makes zero sense that the T2BPO can can under cut invention. When the T2BPO undercuts invention in items where the BPO can supply all of the demand it leaves no scope for inventors in this unit which I feel is fundemntally wrong. One suggestion is that invention should inherits the T1BPO research allowing it to compete alongside the T2BPO.
CCP by allowing T2BPO owners to easily craft items with zero effort that undermine the more complex invention system have gimped their crafting system that was otherwise a brilliant idea.
Boosting invention up to T2BPO levels would allow inventors to compete in every market while in no way hampering the manufacture of T2BPO owners. With the changes to data cores CCP has the perfect opportunity to buff invention to compete with T2BPO. |
March rabbit
Trojan Trolls Red Alliance
169
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:...When the T2BPO undercuts invention in items where the BPO can supply all of the demand.... can you give 1 real example of such item?
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
82
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:...When the T2BPO undercuts invention in items where the BPO can supply all of the demand.... can you give 1 real example of such item?
Yes http://crackerjax.org/gwiki/GoonWIki/wiki.goonfleet.com/Making_T2_Ships.html Here is a nice goon wiki on T2 Ships
For instance highly traded ships such as Hulks will have scope for inventors where as the less popular T2 ships there is zero scope for invention and the T2BPO owner/s have this market completely cornered as they are able to sell cheaper than the cost of production to an inventor. |
Haulie Berry
35
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:...When the T2BPO undercuts invention in items where the BPO can supply all of the demand.... can you give 1 real example of such item?
Oh, oh, I can! I can!
50mm reinforced steel plate IIs! Or... uhm...
Oh, I know. Cargo scanner IIs?
Ship scanner IIs?
Small smartbomb IIs?
You may be noticing a trend here in that they are all things that nobody uses because they are worthless. Basically, there's a big fat juicy steak on the table with enough for everyone, and Brewlar is crying over someone else getting an extra cucumber slice on their salad. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
82
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:March rabbit wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:...When the T2BPO undercuts invention in items where the BPO can supply all of the demand.... can you give 1 real example of such item? Oh, oh, I can! I can! 50mm reinforced steel plate IIs! Or... uhm... Oh, I know. Cargo scanner IIs? Ship scanner IIs? Small smartbomb IIs? You may be noticing a trend here in that they are all things that nobody uses because they are worthless. Basically, there's a big fat juicy steak on the table with enough for everyone, and Brewlar is crying over someone else getting an extra cucumber slice on their salad.
All the items you mentioned are produced by T2BPO's at profit even if they sell like crap. However inventors can not sell these at profit as it costs more to invent them than the BPO owner is selling them at. T2 Armour plates are gimped by rolled Tungsten both for inventors and BPO owners.
You are crying because you know what a powerful effect T2BPO have in ISK making for their owners/ alliances, CCP knows this and that is why they don't release figures for them. However as there currently exists a multitude of posts regarding T2BPO's over the years CCP must acknowledge that they need to be either removed or gimped by invention. If CCP wants eve to grow and '' EVE is real'' it'll have to stop giving hand outs to pet players and alliances that place them above other players. let them compete fairly and the better side win. |
Haulie Berry
38
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Posted - 2012.05.04 17:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
All the items you mentioned are produced by T2BPO's at profit even if they sell like crap. However inventors can not sell these at profit as it costs more to invent them than the BPO owner is selling them at. T2 Armour plates are gimped by rolled Tungsten both for inventors and BPO owners.
Yeah? And? So what? The approximate (daily volume*avg daily price) monthly revenue of 50mm steel plate II sales in Jita is less than 40 million.
That's revenue. If I can make 2-3 billion in half a week (and that's not revenue - that's *profit*), why am I supposed to do anything other than laugh at 40 million in revenue? And do feel free to figure out how much profit that yields. Should be good for a laugh.
Quote:You are crying because you know what a powerful effect T2BPO have in ISK making for their owners/ alliances,
I don't own any BPOs, I'm not in an alliance, and hell, my corp? It's just me. I assure you, it is entirely possible to think you and your ideas are unmitigated stupidity without personally having a horse in the race. |
Katalci
Creative Cookie Procuring Veto Corp
73
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Posted - 2012.05.04 17:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Joran Dravius wrote:Velicitia wrote:there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO. You weren't around before invention were you? You aren't very good at reading comprehension are you? He said "there's", as in, "there is", not "there was". |
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