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MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
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Posted - 2012.05.04 20:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
well 8 years ok only 10% of the playerbase supported removing learning at all *I was one of them!* but then after a dev mentioned it oce at fanfest off hand in an interview, by the time it happen most people were in agreement that learning skills had to go. THANK GOD. Do you know how many times I was called a dumbass for wanting CCP to remove learning skills? Being told it was dumbing down the game and so on?
Whatever they said keep fighting for it. Implants giving you bonuses to learning skills a bit faster is kinda dumb, and only follows logic that they should be removed as well. Maybe have more extremes possibilities in the attributes again in return for removing the implants?
I mean, hell, why not. Let us go up to 30 and down to 15. Let players have to make a real choice that they can't change for a whole year. How fast do you want to train what. Maybe even give some of those bloodlines some bonuses to base attributes again. I do miss that.
OP, I think you're 100% justified and you've got my support. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
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Posted - 2012.05.04 20:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:For me there is a big difference in attribute enhancers and hardwirings.
EXACTLY
in my opinion the noob missions should drop a bunch of hardwirings, and promote the idea that fitting implants to increase your combat skill should be as common as fitting out your ship. But due to these stupid implants it's not.
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MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
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Posted - 2012.05.04 20:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Geoscape wrote:"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"
Get rid of learning implants.
OR cut down on the time it takes to clone jump. like 3 hours instead of 24 |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
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Posted - 2012.05.04 20:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:So what about hardwirings? They give significant bonuses to your performace and ISK earning potential, while being just as available and potentially costing even more than attribute implants. Not using them gimps you when competing against people who do use them, meaning pretty much everyone these days. If you just remove learning implants, people are going to stick performance implants in their place at the start, be unwilling to risk them and we will be pretty much back to square one. This topic has been discussed to death though, if you want to see all the arguments and ideas, just read this thread.
But that's the point. you allways learn skills even when your in stations those learning impants are doing something. If you're willing to buy 40 million in combat implants you've obviously going to risk them. how is this any different than people using expensive fits in spaceships?
The price of combat implants are only justified if you undock. Otherwise why would you buy them in the 1st place if you weren't going to use them? Your not going to sit in your expensive clone for months waiting for a fight you want to get into.
Karn Dulake wrote:Grudging agree with the OP
When i first started this game i was fearless. I went all over nullsec in a noob ship and did not care what happened. Once i got my +5s i did not leave highsec for 6 months and now i spent most of my time in a clone with no implants.
ouch yeah I've been there
Acheron Cyc wrote:So, you want to reduce the risk involved for those that do heavy pvp and get podded often, disguised as something of benefit for new players?.
How about no?.
When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
these people use implants that actually increase combat stats. People would be able to use them 24/7 if there were no learning implants that could take up the same spot. how awesome is that?
Maybe that's the real issue here. learning implants take the same spot as combat implants. That doesn't make much sense if you think about it. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
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Posted - 2012.05.04 20:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adria Origin wrote:Geoscape wrote:"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"
Get rid of learning implants.
Or the timer. I don't really think removing the timer completely is a good idea, but at a minimum CCP needs to drop it to 12 hours. My suggestion is CCP needs to find out the amount of time the average person plays per day. I mean really plays, not sits afk in a station. I assume it's going to be around 4-6 hours. Whatever that amount of time is, that should be the length of the JC timer. But that is a thread all its own.
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
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Posted - 2012.05.04 21:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adria Origin wrote:MotherMoon wrote:also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game. You clearly missed my first reply. Adria Origin wrote:There's these things I heard about, I think they are called.... J... Ju... Jump ... Jump Clones? Yeah, that's it! Jump Clones. You can get implants in one, and have no implants or cheaper implants in another and use one to PVP and one to not PVP. Get this: I also heard you don't need standings to install them in your nullsec corps station and that there are corps in the market section that let you join, get jump clones, and leave. Free. I also heard that +3s are cheaper than +4s, and +2s are cheaper than +3s, and so on. A wise man once said: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Implants go in your pod and you fly your pod so it applies. Oh and no one makes you have implants.
yeah because that level of complexity is something new players will figure out.
Eve has a lot of "hidden features" and right cick menus and things that are hard to understand. A lot of these add a level of skill to playing eve. It's like learning how to use maya more than a video game.
I've been here for 7 years so I KNOW how to jump clone, but I do wish it on others. Everyone should get one free jump clone without having to go through corps or backwards system. Anything that requires you to tab out of the game to go check a forum needs to get taken out of eve.
When you start playing eve online, creating a jump clone should be part of the tutorial. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
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Posted - 2012.05.05 06:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Read OP. Speed read thread.
Death has to have meaning. Implants, especially specific sets add meaning to PVP. Losing snakes in a deadspace fit faction ship because of a tactical error makes players sweat. Realising that you are in your +5s in the middle of fight after you have just invested all your liquid isk into speculation really does add to this game.
In regards to new players I think the tutorial introduces them to implants rather succinctly. While I started playing before the introduction of the tutorial, I run a new alt through the tutorial each patch to see how it has developed. If I was a new player, the discovery of implants would not put me off but give me a glimpse of increasing depth the game has.
That segways nicely into my third point, Eve is a deep deep game. By simplifying the game to enhance the "new player experience" CCP run the risk of removing the mystery and depth the game has. The game has grown and prospered over 9 years - games that give everything up front and allow players to be an expert after 6 months are either called WOW or don't last beyond 3 years.
no no the point is to keep everything but the ones that just decrease learning time |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
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Posted - 2012.05.05 06:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Removing them completely takes away from what Eve really is. .
they said the same about learning skills, is eve dumbed down now without them? |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
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Posted - 2012.05.05 06:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Replace implants and hardwires with drugs/boosters and/or temporary implants. This creates an isk sink, allows players to pay small amounts over time instead of paying one big chunk of change at once for an implant, and thus removes the disincentive of losing a lot of isk when podded. It would also make "implants" more flexible, in that drugs/boosters/temp_implants can be changed more often without having to rely on jump clones and without the disincentive of a great loss of isk.
Basically, smaller daily/weekly/monthly payments versus a big one time payment.
I like this. An isk based player built drug instead of implants. You take a pill, and you get +1/2/3/4/5 for 10-20 days. repeat and repeat. then your slots are freed up for PvP implants, which only justified buying if your going to be shooting something in space. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
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Posted - 2012.05.05 06:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Andski wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.
You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around. FU...and I mean that sincerely. If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox. If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks. yeah you are surely experiencing everything EVE has to offer by mining in hisec with hulks
Best part is I'm a beta player, but whatever.
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.
You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around. FU...and I mean that sincerely. If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox. If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks.
IT's not fun to tell your allainc eyou have to wait 13 hours before you can clone jump out of your learning clone to get into the PvP roam they need you in. Maybe that's the issue, maybe we should be able to clone jum in station freely between different sets of clones as long as we aren't jump cloning...
oh... there's an idea.... multiple clones in a single station. That have no timer to wait for... |
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MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
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Posted - 2012.05.05 06:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:EVE is not dumbed down without learning skills, but they are basically what the game is. Smart intelligent moves that may be boring but will help you progress in the long run. While many people may enjoy many aspects of the game in their own way, that is essentially what the entire game is.
So why not find a new way around this? If respecing your attributes for instance had a harsher curve to it, meaning you really have to pick carefully because it will effect you for a long time.
Or why not something else, like ... make every single hardwire in the game also have some sort of attribute enhancement. Then remove learning implants so every implant you could ever fit increases your combat skills and your learning time. This would make getting a set of +3's really cheap in a way since they would be a free add-on. And after thought if you will. People would buy an implant for it's benefits in combat, and thus go out and find some space combat with them equipped.
Here is an example Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Noble' ZET50
+1% armor hp +1 attribute point
+5% armor hp +3 attribute points
Maybe even make more sets, so implants work together in more ways. Because who buy a snake set , they undock with those , because they want the massive benefits they give in combat. and it's awesome because you can keep on learning skills faster.
See for me it's not a question of risk, it's more a question of usefulness. Why would undock in learning skills as an older player, if I wait 12 hours I can jump into my just as expensive combat clone. I mean I'm not going to go into combat wearing a set of learning implants, they give me no benefit in combat!! I'd rather wait for my clone jump so I can have my clone that gives me an edge in combat. Learning implants are only useful when your docked.
So why not make all combat implants give bonuses, or all learning implants should have a combat bonus. Either way it would be better. and not dumbed down, but more complex without the bottle neck the OP is pointing out. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:MotherMoon wrote:IT's not fun to tell your allainc eyou have to wait 13 hours before you can clone jump out of your learning clone to get into the PvP roam they need you in. Maybe that's the issue, maybe we should be able to clone jum in station freely between different sets of clones as long as we aren't jump cloning...
oh... there's an idea.... multiple clones in a single station. That have no timer to wait for... I don't know about the level 5 CTAs, since we don't have them, but I guess that would be annoying. Still, removing timers might be seriously abuseable. I mean people howl at the suggestion to shave off 2 hours, for some reason.
Here is my suggestion. Have a cooldown timer based on the distance you clone jump. If you only jump a few systems you only have a small timer. If you jump into a new region you get a 24 hour timer.
with other timers in between 2-24 hours based on how useful the clone jump was basically.
so if you goal for clone jumping is to get into a new set of implants, hat's not very abusable. But obviously being able to jump around the universe with no limitation is broken as well.
Or a step farther would be why can't we just have multiple clones in a station yet? it used to be a limitation of the code but I'm sure eve could handle it now. have jump clones, and normal clones. Normal clones could be stacked just like ships are. You just right click one, and say make active clone, and BAM you're in a new clone, I mean, why not? what part of eve would be hurt if you could change the clone your in whenever you want? |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
623
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Posted - 2012.05.05 23:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:no increase jump clone timers not reduce them people shouldn't be able to bounce all over eve at the drop of a hat so what do you think my idea then?
jump clone cooldown based on distance jumped? |
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