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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
578
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Posted - 2012.05.05 06:22:00 -
[121] - Quote
It helps push people towards whole alt accounts I guess. So your supercap character (that needs cybernetics V anyway) can cook with +5s for a year (or less, since you use +5s). And after you get into your spacecoffin, losing .5bil of implants is the least of your worries. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:25:00 -
[122] - Quote
Andski wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.
You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around. FU...and I mean that sincerely. If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox. If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks. yeah you are surely experiencing everything EVE has to offer by mining in hisec with hulks
Best part is I'm a beta player, but whatever.
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.
You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around. FU...and I mean that sincerely. If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox. If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks.
IT's not fun to tell your allainc eyou have to wait 13 hours before you can clone jump out of your learning clone to get into the PvP roam they need you in. Maybe that's the issue, maybe we should be able to clone jum in station freely between different sets of clones as long as we aren't jump cloning...
oh... there's an idea.... multiple clones in a single station. That have no timer to wait for... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
578
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:28:00 -
[123] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:IT's not fun to tell your allainc eyou have to wait 13 hours before you can clone jump out of your learning clone to get into the PvP roam they need you in. Maybe that's the issue, maybe we should be able to clone jum in station freely between different sets of clones as long as we aren't jump cloning...
oh... there's an idea.... multiple clones in a single station. That have no timer to wait for... I don't know about the level 5 CTAs, since we don't have them, but I guess that would be annoying.
Still, removing timers might be seriously abuseable. I mean people howl at the suggestion to shave off 2 hours, for some reason. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
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Posted - 2012.05.05 06:39:00 -
[124] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:EVE is not dumbed down without learning skills, but they are basically what the game is. Smart intelligent moves that may be boring but will help you progress in the long run. While many people may enjoy many aspects of the game in their own way, that is essentially what the entire game is.
So why not find a new way around this? If respecing your attributes for instance had a harsher curve to it, meaning you really have to pick carefully because it will effect you for a long time.
Or why not something else, like ... make every single hardwire in the game also have some sort of attribute enhancement. Then remove learning implants so every implant you could ever fit increases your combat skills and your learning time. This would make getting a set of +3's really cheap in a way since they would be a free add-on. And after thought if you will. People would buy an implant for it's benefits in combat, and thus go out and find some space combat with them equipped.
Here is an example Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Noble' ZET50
+1% armor hp +1 attribute point
+5% armor hp +3 attribute points
Maybe even make more sets, so implants work together in more ways. Because who buy a snake set , they undock with those , because they want the massive benefits they give in combat. and it's awesome because you can keep on learning skills faster.
See for me it's not a question of risk, it's more a question of usefulness. Why would undock in learning skills as an older player, if I wait 12 hours I can jump into my just as expensive combat clone. I mean I'm not going to go into combat wearing a set of learning implants, they give me no benefit in combat!! I'd rather wait for my clone jump so I can have my clone that gives me an edge in combat. Learning implants are only useful when your docked.
So why not make all combat implants give bonuses, or all learning implants should have a combat bonus. Either way it would be better. and not dumbed down, but more complex without the bottle neck the OP is pointing out. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:42:00 -
[125] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: Learning implants that last however many deaths but cost a reduced equivalent of what they would be on market multiplied by the number of deaths allowed. Anywhere from 50 or so mil for +2s to a few hundred mil for +3s or +4s. Do NOT do this to +5s. Make something that is risky. Id almost opt out +4s myself and only have +2s and +3s available for the bulk death style of play. This would also allow those who will drop the isk on them the ability to fit LG or HG or the new Genolution implant sets ontop of that if they wish to put those sets at risk in PvP. Then give us more Genolution style sets with only 2 of each attribute affected but with other nifty bonuses. I really LOVE the Genolution sets for fittings and other bonus values. Implant insurance. Interesting concept. A hefty upfront plus additional "cost-share" (or whatever the term is) each time you are podded might be interesting. Of course, the contract will be many times the cost of an implant, have a fixed term and a significant cost per podding. Eeeh, sounds like a lot of coding work. Definitely not for special implants though, CONCORD insuring pirate type implants seems wrong... No not insurance. Simply a larger upfront fee for the clone grade then unlimited clones at that grade. If you never skill beyond that grade then youd ever have to pay for a new clone contract again. If you were still skilling then eventually youd hit a new contract fee and have to pay it upfront again or go under cloned up to your existing contract.
Make it almost the same scale it is now just multiply it by 10-20 times the clone contract now for the unlimited and away you go. Also raise the base clone from 900K to something reasonable for noobs say a few million. Though itll be abused by alts Im sure.
Id even go so far as to make -5 and unders have to get special contracts from low sec agents only. Not sure if Id make it more expensive or not, just something interesting in the storyline to have to get it or to keep it due to them being "outlaws" and not able to deal with a reputable cloner. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:44:00 -
[126] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:MotherMoon wrote:IT's not fun to tell your allainc eyou have to wait 13 hours before you can clone jump out of your learning clone to get into the PvP roam they need you in. Maybe that's the issue, maybe we should be able to clone jum in station freely between different sets of clones as long as we aren't jump cloning...
oh... there's an idea.... multiple clones in a single station. That have no timer to wait for... I don't know about the level 5 CTAs, since we don't have them, but I guess that would be annoying. Still, removing timers might be seriously abuseable. I mean people howl at the suggestion to shave off 2 hours, for some reason.
Here is my suggestion. Have a cooldown timer based on the distance you clone jump. If you only jump a few systems you only have a small timer. If you jump into a new region you get a 24 hour timer.
with other timers in between 2-24 hours based on how useful the clone jump was basically.
so if you goal for clone jumping is to get into a new set of implants, hat's not very abusable. But obviously being able to jump around the universe with no limitation is broken as well.
Or a step farther would be why can't we just have multiple clones in a station yet? it used to be a limitation of the code but I'm sure eve could handle it now. have jump clones, and normal clones. Normal clones could be stacked just like ships are. You just right click one, and say make active clone, and BAM you're in a new clone, I mean, why not? what part of eve would be hurt if you could change the clone your in whenever you want? |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:49:00 -
[127] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:EVE is not dumbed down without learning skills, but they are basically what the game is. Smart intelligent moves that may be boring but will help you progress in the long run. While many people may enjoy many aspects of the game in their own way, that is essentially what the entire game is. This is ironically how life is as well. I support it entirely. Eve is a long term game. When I started we didnt know what implants WERE let alone learning skills. We learned with time though and its paid off in the long run. I hate short term players with I want it NOW mentalities. This is a game where you think 3-6 months down the road if not 6 months to a year. And thats as it should be so the loss of learning skills is what kept a lot of instant gratification babies out of Eve which I was very glad for. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:52:00 -
[128] - Quote
Yes. Some people see it. The game is that way because that is all it is. Admittedly the learning skills were on the more extreme end of boring, but the entire game is basically a less or more extreme version of them. It is in some ways to some people, satisfying to know they had taken the correct path for greater long run efficiency.
I do not think it was a good or bad idea, I am simply saying the entire game is the same to various degrees. Ferox #1 |
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 08:31:00 -
[129] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:I'd agree with the OP
I'm currently looking at my SP/hour and going hmm I'd like to try some FW but hmm that's going to dmg my rate if I get podded, I pretty much have OCD when it comes to these types of things so I'm sitting here going just one more skill before I take risk it, no just one more!
At this rate I might still be saying this in two years time It's almost impossible to get podded outside 0.0 unless you fly through a smartbomb camp in a small ship. Smartbomb camps are easy enough to avoid. Pods warp practically instantly. Without bubbles you will almost never get podded. Just start spamming warp when your ship gets to structure. |
LumpySnake
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:01:00 -
[130] - Quote
So, instead of simply not using learning implants, why do you want to force those who DO want to use them to give them up? Why are you trying to force other people to play the game YOUR way. If you dont like them dont use them, and let those who are willing to risk isk , Go about doing so, plain and simple. |
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Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:05:00 -
[131] - Quote
Don't even have to ditch them completely - just remove +5s and give everyone +1 to their base attributes. Downgrade all existing implants by one, leave +1s as they are and call it a day. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
525
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:50:00 -
[132] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Removing them completely takes away from what Eve really is. . they said the same about learning skills, is eve dumbed down now without them?
Yes and no. The issue with learning skills was that they where redundant, training skills just to skill others quicker. Implants on the other hand is a destructible investment. However removing learning skills did kind of take away from the ideology of patience that is needed in Eve, by doing the short term time investment in learning skills for long term gain. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:05:00 -
[133] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:[quote=Takseen]
Lastly if you are looking for fights why wouldn't you be in null to begin with?
Not finished training for stealth bombers yet, got sidetracked by the blaster buff and decided to get those first.
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Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:06:00 -
[134] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:I'm not saying that getting rid of learning implants is THE solution to getting more hisec bears out of their shells, but it would help new players be less risk-averse. Not everyone likes to PvP, but the way things are now, I don't think newbies are being given a fair chance to try it.
Two problems with your proposal.
Firstly, why do everyone assume that high-sec bears need to come out of their shell? This is a sandbox, why must I have every incentive to enjoy the industrial side of the game torn away and replaced with incentives to do Pew Pew combat? When will you realize that the many industrialists and market players in EVE are engaged in a different kind of PvP?
Secondly, there is absolutely no requirement for a newbie pilot to plug in expensive implants. Choosing to do so is exactly the same as choosing to buy an expensive faction module or ship, in that you risk a relatively large amount of ISK to get a relatively minor advantage over other players. By your logic we should then all be flying t1 frigates in combat, because it's unfair that new players could lose ISK if they were flying anything more expensive.
Additionally, if a newbie player wants to Pew Pew, but doesn't want to risk his implants, high-sec warfare and low-sec pew pew are viable options, as the lack of bubbles makes it nearly impossible to lose your clone if you know what you're doing.
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Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:13:00 -
[135] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:
Cute straw man. The amount of SP that a character has nothing to do with "combat ability", the experience that a player possess is everything.
I am surprised that someone like you, hiding in a NPC corp even after two years even dares mention risk.
Don't be an idiot. If you think that taking a veteran player with a 100m SP character and making him switch to a 2m SP character wouldn't decrease his combat ability you're delusional. There's probably a point where extra SP stops being effective, sure, and that'd be an argument in favour of capping medclone costs but not much else.
Being in an NPC corp is just a case of enjoying the chat, not wanting to join an actual corp, and not being particularly keen on being wardecced. I pick and choose when and where I want to take risks. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:36:00 -
[136] - Quote
Chaos Incarnate wrote:Takseen wrote:Pfft, slippery slope argument. Also Learning implants are bad because their cost scales poorly with that pilot's combat ability, and peaks relatively early. Expensive high sp clone = higher combat ability(90% of the time anyway,) Expensive hardwirings = higher combat ability Expensive ship and fittings = higher combat ability
And all but the hardwirings can be changed on the fly whenever you want to go do something risky.
Slippery slope is only a fallacy if there's no logical connection to the conclusion. If we use the same argument you're using here ("X should be removed because X causes loss which discourages PvP", where X is implant loss) and apply it broadly to eve, we should remove ship loss, skill loss, clone costs, and every source of loss in game. Your argument is, quite simply, loss is bad, therefore remove loss. That you've chosen to limit it to just implants here does not make it invalid to talk about the implications. Moreover, the cost scaling is optional.No one's forcing +5s into your head every time you get podded. +4s are dirt cheap and cost less than your average BS. +1/2s are basically nothing, even for a newbie who should have a few million just out of the tutorials.
All the cost scalings are optional, but some are more flexible than others. Clone cost is actually the least flexible. A 100m SP clone has to pay a fortune when podded even if they're only using a fraction of their SP at the time. I suppose the logic behind that is income should have scaled up to match the costs. Learning implants are slightly more flexible, since you can "remove" them temporarily with the 24 hour jumpclone cooldown. But there's still an incentive to use them as often as possible, even when you're not actually "doing" anything. Its not someone "forcing +5s into your head", its that you can't always force them out of your head even when you want to. Well you can by destroying them, but that'd be silly. Hardwirings have the same flexibility issues with jump clones, but atleast they're only useful in specific instances. I wasn't even aware of their existence for months, and didn't actually buy any for nearly a year. Ships and fittings are way more flexible. Sure there will be some minimum costs involved if say you want to join a BC fleet you obviously can't turn up in a frigate, but you vary the other costs a lot with T1/T2/faction/deadspace fittings and ammo.
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Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:48:00 -
[137] - Quote
Takseen wrote: I pick and choose when and where I want to take risks.
Just like any newbie, who intends to pew pew in null-sec, that plugs in a set of implants without a jump clone. They choose to risk their implants.
They could do like most other pilots that pew pew in null-sec. Get a jump-clone for training (easy if your corporation or alliance owns a station in null-sec), and for your combat clone you can plug in two +3 implants relevant to your current training path, which will only cost you around 15-20 to lose.
There is absolutely no need to change this mechanic, it would be irrational and hurt the game. So, yeah, it'll likely be on TQ in a patch or two.
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Vito Antonio
State War Academy Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.05.05 11:03:00 -
[138] - Quote
Jaffa! Stop worshiping Goa'uld! They are the false gods! Freedom for all jaffa! |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 11:12:00 -
[139] - Quote
.....and lets get rid of high sec.. because it gives noob players the wrong idea. and we should get rid of titans because that give noob players the wrong idea as well. (sic)
I'm afraid I don't agree with you. What makes you think that learning implants are designed for noobs.. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Dapud
0
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Posted - 2012.05.05 11:21:00 -
[140] - Quote
Remove them and give everyone +6 to all attributes to punish those pompous Cybernetics V people. |
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Sang-in Tiers
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
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Posted - 2012.05.05 11:54:00 -
[141] - Quote
I agree with OP. |
Whitehound
239
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 12:38:00 -
[142] - Quote
It is the entire learning skills debate all over again...
Now people demand to remove attribute implants and soon thereafter they want skill ranks removed, and then they want the training itself removed but buy skills with ISKs.
CCP should never have removed learning skills. It is the fault of the stupid pre-Incarna period of CCP. And why did this all happen? Because we allowed lazy asses and free loaders into the game by selling game time for ISKs and we listen to their demands. Where is my pizza for ISKs? Logic demands pizza!
No more crappy expansions!-á-á Raise A Little Hell"20 percent of CCP staff fired." - CEO Hilmar-á-á No more crappy layoffs! |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
137
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:21:00 -
[143] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:Learning implants are not evil or unfair. However, they are unnecessary and they give new pilots a bad first taste of EVE. Why bad? Well, new pilots immediately find out that getting into the ships they want to fly takes time. The learning implants reduce that time, and newbies will focus on getting those implants as soon as possible once they find out about them. However, they are relatively expensive for a new player and after they plug in the implants, they don't want to lose them.
For a beginner, those implants represent more than just the gametime they spent to get them. They mined or ran missions for days to get them, and to lose them would not only set them back tens of millions of ISK, it would gimp their character progression. After a new players gets these implants in his head, he becomes extremely risk averse. The idea of being podded is pretty scary to a newbie when he's carrying so much in his head.
After having learned this new behavior, a new pilot is much more likely to avoid going into lowsec or nullsec. This is generally bad for EVE. Aside from the obvious implications this has on new player experiences (they get really bored saving the damsel and killing Kruul and quit), this is not good for the EVE market. PvP is an ISK sink, and ships getting blown up creates demand for new ships.
I'm not saying that getting rid of learning implants is THE solution to getting more hisec bears out of their shells, but it would help new players be less risk-averse. Not everyone likes to PvP, but the way things are now, I don't think newbies are being given a fair chance to try it.
anyone else think there were gonna be learning implants on the NeX if ppl hadnt bitched? Those things look like a pay to win item
Whitehound wrote:It is the entire learning skills debate all over again...
Now people demand to remove attribute implants and soon thereafter they want skill ranks removed, and then they want the training itself removed but buy skills with ISKs.
CCP should never have removed learning skills. It is the fault of the stupid pre-Incarna period of CCP. And why did this all happen? Because we allowed lazy asses and free loaders into the game by selling game time for ISKs and we listen to their demands.
TL;DR: Where is my pizza for ISKs? Logic demands pizza!
wait... what? before PLEX it was gtc or are you including those too?
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
242
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:23:00 -
[144] - Quote
For once I agree with you, Sigurd . |
adopt
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
394
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:25:00 -
[145] - Quote
I think you should all harden up, I lose +3/+4 clones regularly Shadoo > Always remember to fit Cynosural Field Generator I, have 450 Liquid Ozone in your cargo and convo a friendly Pandemic Legion member if you have a capital or super capital ship tackled.
FREE XOLVE ~ THE HERO TEST NEEDS |
Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
242
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:29:00 -
[146] - Quote
adopt wrote:I think you should all harden up, I lose +3/+4 clones regularly
Compelling gameplay to lose training time?
Cool story . |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 15:50:00 -
[147] - Quote
On a related point, CCP Soundwave thinks the system where veterans sometimes pay more for their clone than their ship is a bit out of whack, and could use an adjustment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pLi1J9YrkM&feature=g-user-u 29 minutes in
And we all know what happens when he mentions something off-hand. |
stoicfaux
1012
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:06:00 -
[148] - Quote
Move implants from the LP store to the manufacturing side of the sandbox.
One of the problems with items in the LP store is the artificial price floor. If we remove that price floor, we could potentially see learning implants drop in price to a level low enough that people no longer worry about losing their learning implants.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
30
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Posted - 2012.05.05 16:07:00 -
[149] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:buy skills with ISKs.
You can already do this through character transfers
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Whitehound
242
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Posted - 2012.05.05 16:15:00 -
[150] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Whitehound wrote:buy skills with ISKs. You can already do this through character transfers No, it only seems that way. You can only buy characters, but you do not have a direct choice on which particular skill you add to a character.
No more crappy expansions!-á-á Raise A Little Hell"20 percent of CCP staff fired." - CEO Hilmar-á-á No more crappy layoffs! |
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