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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
219
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Posted - 2012.05.08 07:40:00 -
[211] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: A lot of players feel that in training faster you're not only making yourself valuable sooner in order to join or be more efficient for your corp, but you're also getting deeper into the game so that you are able to enjoy it more.
for your corp an experienced scout or tackler with 7m SP is 83292389243 times more valuable than a f*cking noob with 7.2m SP sitting in station all the time and being afraid of loosing his +4 implants.
Serith Isagar wrote: Newbies can't do much of anything in standard PVP other then be a tackler frigate. IMO unless you happen to enjoy that sort of game play there isn't much to do aside from skill up. With learning implants, if you stop to enjoy something like RvB frigate nights and get podded, for me that's lengthening the amount of time spent in a ship type I have no real interest in. The same argument applies to faction warfare when those tweaks come in.
always fly only what you can afford to loose. This wisdom applies to implants too. The sooner you accept the fact that you cant afford everything in eve as beginner, the better it will turn out for your carreer. |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
114
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Posted - 2012.05.08 09:48:00 -
[212] - Quote
Sid Hudgens wrote:ConranAntoni wrote:
Pro retort ******.
EvE is a sandbox, and risk is a factor to all actions in the game, removing this removes a risk for pilots who are either A to stupid to keep their pod alive in high or lowsec or B think jamming +5s into your head then dicksmashing into a bubbled gate in null is a good idea.
Oh, and to reinforce what god knows how many people have pointed out previously; Jump Clones, I know their hard to get hold of, I mean its not like theres actual corps specificly set up to allow people to join to set up jump clones or anything like Jump Frog, so I clearly understand why we should all hold hands and circlejerk into empty clones instantly on day one and make absolutely zero effort to get to grips with risk/reward management of pvp or understanding that the things you want require *effort* such as grinding standings or joining somewhere that already has them.
Tl;dr losing your first pod is always a lesson in how not to be stupid. Remove the risk of losing your shiney bits in your skull and you remove the true danger of podding. You want HG slaves or +5s and you earn and lose them, you learn that things are finite and not to be ******** in how you approach EvE.
A swing and a miss. But hey, you keep at it, pumpkin. If all of you hardcore eve pros try thinking about it really hard maybe you'll be able to grasp the point the OP, or myself or (according to an earlier post) even mittens is making about new players. (Good lord do I actually agree with mittens on something? I suddenly feel I need a shower.)
Oh we get your point we just give a **** about it. Implants are fine and if you can't afford them well thats just too damn bad. Looks like you get to train slower, a well deserved fate for the mentally inferior. |
Dahren Caspo
Repo.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.08 10:46:00 -
[213] - Quote
I recently started training an alt and the first thing I did was train Cybernetics to 4 and buy a set of +4 implants to increase the learning speed of everything else.
It's like the old learning skills all over again.
I'm in full support of removing them. |
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2012.05.08 11:07:00 -
[214] - Quote
Geoscape wrote:"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"
Get rid of learning implants.
Using exactly the same quote, I would say "reduce the timer" :P |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
220
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Posted - 2012.05.08 11:11:00 -
[215] - Quote
Dahren Caspo wrote:I recently started training an alt and the first thing I did was train Cybernetics to 4 and buy a set of +4 implants to increase the learning speed of everything else.
It's like the old learning skills all over again.
I'm in full support of removing them.
you know, you arent needed to do that if you dont like. Just leave them away, exactly as it would be as if they removed them from the game. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
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Posted - 2012.05.08 15:12:00 -
[216] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Dahren Caspo wrote:I recently started training an alt and the first thing I did was train Cybernetics to 4 and buy a set of +4 implants to increase the learning speed of everything else.
It's like the old learning skills all over again.
I'm in full support of removing them. you know, you arent needed to do that if you dont like. Just leave them away, exactly as it would be as if they removed them from the game.
Apparently you didn't read much of the thread. WE established that the +5 would be placed on the players without the need of an implant.
Now, as far as not needing them...Are you mentally handicapped? Like i've already stated, the differents between implants and no implants is over a month out of a year worth of SP. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
221
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Posted - 2012.05.08 15:20:00 -
[217] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: Now, as far as not needing them...Are you mentally handicapped? Like i've already stated, the differents between implants and no implants is over a month out of a year worth of SP.
you are fu*king rtarded dude, just because they giving you advantage, does not mean you NEED them for playing. They are still optional, if you can afford loosing them in the worst case. Its the same as requesting Nightmares for everyone, just because they are better ships compared to armageddons, what th f*ck are you smoking? Those expensive things have an essential drawback, they are EXPENSIVE, so if you lose them you, well, experience more loss as if you wouldnt use them and thats for a good reason, to hold rich people apart from the poor people. If you want nice things in game you should put more efforts into it. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
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Posted - 2012.05.08 16:11:00 -
[218] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: Now, as far as not needing them...Are you mentally handicapped? Like i've already stated, the differents between implants and no implants is over a month out of a year worth of SP.
you are fu*king rtarded dude, just because they giving you advantage, does not mean you NEED them for playing. They are still optional, if you can afford loosing them in the worst case. Its the same as requesting Nightmares for everyone, just because they are better ships compared to armageddons, what th f*ck are you smoking? Those expensive things have an essential drawback, they are EXPENSIVE, so if you lose them you, well, experience more loss as if you wouldnt use them and thats for a good reason, to hold rich people apart from the poor people. If you want nice things in game you should put more efforts into it.
Except with attribute implants you're essentially allowing those with wealthy pocket books out of game to essentially buy SP. Last time I checked most players were against buy SP.
Now, as far as expensive and more loss crap. This is a statement meant only for the players who risk their pods. Most players in high sec rarely risk their pods even during a corp war, so you're basically punishing those who risk their pods with either lower training times, or higher risks.
Removing attribute implants means a more balanced risk vs reward system so that no one has to worry about training times because we'd all be the same. |
Pelador Rova
Paladin Philanthropists Blue Nation
63
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Posted - 2012.05.08 17:45:00 -
[219] - Quote
If it hasnt been mentioned then important to remember that implants provide a significant isk sink to the game, thus removing implants without finding a new or balancing alternative sinks to compensate coul dcasue an inflationary spike.
An alternative to the impact podding has on implant loss and how thi seffects the psychology of pilots would be to apply scaled insurance to implants similarly to how ships are insured. These can be weighted so as not to gain profit from the exercise by making the payback lower than the LP associated costs for them, which are static at present.
Considering that the risk adversive wont likley use this servce they arent the ones who would beneift from the service, and would be the ones to take a hit when they do end up being podded. The more habitual PvP player however would be gratefull however from having an insurance component for their implants however and would be more likley to use the service. CCP would likley know the tipping points to make it a reality economically, but also provides an additinal isk sink source with extra insurance being paid to NPCs yet the payout providing a less return overall to players in order to at least compensate for the penalties of impant loss. As such it would be more of an applicable benefit to PvP players. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
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Posted - 2012.05.08 18:28:00 -
[220] - Quote
Pelador Rova wrote:If it hasnt been mentioned then important to remember that implants provide a significant isk sink to the game, thus removing implants without finding a new or balancing alternative sinks to compensate coul dcasue an inflationary spike.
The best suggestion I've heard to counter this is to keep the implant slots and allow the hardwire implants to be cross fitted into these slots, so...
1 and 6 share implants 2-7 3-8 4-9 5-10
However, the limitations on this would be that you can't fit 2 implants effecting the same skill in the coordinating slots.
This would be useful in several ways.
Those who wish to apply more risk will get more combat effectiveness Those who wish to use a single clone for several tasks, such as mining and missioning would be able to. They could cross fit for pvp and pve. It helps those who fly several different class ships at different times.
This would also allow for a much more broad market when it comes to hardwire implants because i'm sure there are some out there that while being helpful implants aren't used because there is something much more direct available, such as slot 6 having both a cpu implant and a torpedo implant that could both be very helpful to a stealth bomber pilot, and if he's willing to risk those implants then he'll receive more bonuses effecting combat capability. |
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Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
114
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Posted - 2012.05.08 22:02:00 -
[221] - Quote
This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
3
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Posted - 2012.05.08 22:08:00 -
[222] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:We should also get rid of T2 ships as it makes fewer people want to pvp in them U mad bro?
- Tech 2 ships are easy to leave and board onto a different ship. A little bit different with implants.
- They also increase effectiveness, unlike attribute enhancers which only improve learning and work even if you just sit around.
- Hell, we should remove all ships, then no one will want to PvP with them.
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
429
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Posted - 2012.05.08 22:56:00 -
[223] - Quote
CAiNE999 wrote:Time > Money
Anyone serious about EVE will not get out of their +5s because they are gimping their SP per hour.
lol wut?
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
222
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Posted - 2012.05.08 23:42:00 -
[224] - Quote
yeah, because if you dont skill fast, you simply suck at eve. This is obvious, no? |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
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Posted - 2012.05.09 02:08:00 -
[225] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:yeah, because if you dont skill fast, you simply suck at eve. This is obvious, no?
Yes, because the first thing ANYONE will tell you about Eve is to get attribute implants to speed up your training, and basically state that they're manditory.
Don't deny it. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
228
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Posted - 2012.05.09 03:49:00 -
[226] - Quote
Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
209
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Posted - 2012.05.09 04:18:00 -
[227] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. Empire PVP doesn't count for risking implants, especially not highsec where you do yours. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
222
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Posted - 2012.05.09 07:46:00 -
[228] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too.
the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others? |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
114
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Posted - 2012.05.09 11:22:00 -
[229] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. Empire PVP doesn't count for risking implants, especially not highsec where you do yours.
Because we never pod people in high sec right douchebag? Get over yourself son, nullsec is no more challenging than low or high. It's merely sovereignty claimable space. Thats it. Nothing more. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
161
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Posted - 2012.05.09 12:32:00 -
[230] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others?
Already fixed with the removal of racial attribute bonuses, and the addition of the two free remaps for new players, plus the yearly remap. Sure it rewards specialisation over generalised characters, but hey, Eve is all about alts anyway.
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Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
229
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Posted - 2012.05.09 14:14:00 -
[231] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others? Already fixed with the removal of racial attribute bonuses, and the addition of the two free remaps for new players, plus the yearly remap. Sure it rewards specialisation over generalised characters, but hey, Eve is all about alts anyway.
This. UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
65
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Posted - 2012.05.09 14:35:00 -
[232] - Quote
Risk vs reward is a 2 way street, I use +5's anytime I'm not in a pvp clone , its still a risk, the odds are just slightly better when you are missioning, mining (very slightly) or playing the market than when you are actively seeking a fight. Some people will not ever actively seek a fight and you want to nerf them because their reward is faster training time among other things. Your reward is the pvp which I assume you want, your awesome epeen of being some null-sec alliances pet dog, million isk bounties on rats and exotic modules not available in High-sec. I'd add exotic ores and moon goo to that but lets face it that stuff goes to your masters. You can add faster training time to your rewards if you want, I always hear you people talking about risk vs reward, if the reward is worth it to you wear the f@%&ing implants. You made your choice they made theirs, live with it. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
222
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Posted - 2012.05.09 15:23:00 -
[233] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:Takseen wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others? Already fixed with the removal of racial attribute bonuses, and the addition of the two free remaps for new players, plus the yearly remap. Sure it rewards specialisation over generalised characters, but hey, Eve is all about alts anyway. This.
this what? this is sh*t. I was not about racial differences.
Implants are fine. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
728
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:30:00 -
[234] - Quote
OP... there are players that have had +5s since 2003. If anything we will see stronger implants so newer players can catch up. What's done is done. You're going in the opposite direction of what must be done, and what CCP is doing already. gl w/ that
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:38:00 -
[235] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Risk vs reward is a 2 way street, I use +5's anytime I'm not in a pvp clone , its still a risk, the odds are just slightly better when you are missioning, mining (very slightly) or playing the market than when you are actively seeking a fight. Some people will not ever actively seek a fight and you want to nerf them because their reward is faster training time among other things. Your reward is the pvp which I assume you want, your awesome epeen of being some null-sec alliances pet dog, million isk bounties on rats and exotic modules not available in High-sec. I'd add exotic ores and moon goo to that but lets face it that stuff goes to your masters. You can add faster training time to your rewards if you want, I always hear you people talking about risk vs reward, if the reward is worth it to you wear the f@%&ing implants. You made your choice they made theirs, live with it. Just gotta repost this.
QFT!! Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
162
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Posted - 2012.05.09 20:06:00 -
[236] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Takseen wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others? Already fixed with the removal of racial attribute bonuses, and the addition of the two free remaps for new players, plus the yearly remap. Sure it rewards specialisation over generalised characters, but hey, Eve is all about alts anyway. This. this what? this is sh*t. I was not about racial differences. Implants are fine.
There were only three things that affected attributes. 1) Starting race. Gone, now everyone starts the same and you can remap to change your attributes to suit, but everyone has the same potential. 2) Learning skills, gone completely. 3) Implants, still here.
So yes, I suppose in a way removing learning implants would make everyone equal in potential, just with different skill focuses. I just don't like them because they're yet one more reason for people to act ultra cautious in-game and not commit to fights they're not sure they'll win, and to put off going to dangerous regions until they're "finished" their perfect skill-plan. I just hope CCP takes a note of it whenever the "how to get more people into pvp" discussion comes up/
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
212
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Posted - 2012.05.10 00:05:00 -
[237] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. Empire PVP doesn't count for risking implants, especially not highsec where you do yours. Because we never pod people in high sec right? Get over yourself son, nullsec is no more challenging than low or high. It's merely sovereignty claimable space. Thats it. Nothing more. Can you use interdiction in highsec? How about lowsec? No? That's entirely my point. There's almost zero risk to your pod in empire PVP unless you're a dumbass or just really, really unlucky. The rest of your post was exceedingly irrelevant. I'm not claiming anything about my playing style being superior to yours. I'm stating that there is, inherently, far greater risk to my pods than there is to yours. You can warp out, 100% of the time, as soon as your ship is destroyed. I don't always have that option. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:49:00 -
[238] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. Empire PVP doesn't count for risking implants, especially not highsec where you do yours. Because we never pod people in high sec right? Get over yourself son, nullsec is no more challenging than low or high. It's merely sovereignty claimable space. Thats it. Nothing more. Can you use interdiction in highsec? How about lowsec? No? That's entirely my point. There's almost zero risk to your pod in empire PVP unless you're a dumbass or just really, really unlucky. The rest of your post was exceedingly irrelevant. I'm not claiming anything about my playing style being superior to yours. I'm stating that there is, inherently, far greater risk to my pods than there is to yours. You can warp out, 100% of the time, as soon as your ship is destroyed. I don't always have that option.
Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way.
You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous.
HTFU Nullbear. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
247
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:14:00 -
[239] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way. You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous. HTFU Nullbear.
I'm a high sec player and I'm personally in agreement with this idea. I don't typically pvp, and I hate even attempting to use a jump clone cause i'll lose my attribute implants for at least 24hrs. It would help me to get more involved in pvp. I'm not worried about losing ships cause I'll probably be flying fairly cheap ships like drakes, bombers, caracals ect. ect., but hey, that's just more combat for someone else isn't it?
However, this isn't the reason why I suggest to remove them and instead apply the +5 directly to the player. The reason I suggest this is because I do understand that attribute implants are generally a MUST in Eve for at least the first year. The first thing I've ever seen anyone tell a noob in a lot of cases is to get attribute implants. Hell, I've even personally given money to a noob to buy some +3's. Attribute implants have basically been established as a neccessity as compared to a perk, so of course players are reluctant to risk them.
When it comes to atributes I find it unfair that ANYONE should have to reduce their training time in order to enjoy the game the way they want to while others get max it out and still enjoy the game they want to, but rarely ever have to risk them.
I feel so strongly about this because no one should ever have to risk less and gain more. Attribute implants are the only part of Eve that when applied to high sec is actually better than in low/null/wh space.
Hardwire implants are much more effective in pvp because for a pilot that knows what they're doing, they make a difference. Mining is better Ratting is better Missions and incursions are better Sites are better complexes are better
Attribute implants?? They're the same...Unless you're getting podded more frequently...I which case they're not worth risking...Yet, aren't higher risks supposed to yield better results?
So wouldn't it make sense that someone in null should be able to train just as fast as anyone in high sec without having to risk losing millions of isk to do so??
I've never been podded in high sec even during a war. I was podded once by a low sec gate camp cause at the time I didn't know that pods could warp that quickly.
However, I lost like 6 pods in null sec, and I was only there for 2 weeks.
Again, I spend the vast majority of my time in high sec. So for me to say that it's unfair for them to have to risk lots of isk or lose training time? Well, that must mean it's unfair.
The only thing players should have to risk in relation to risk vs reward is isk. The more isk you risk, the more reward you get. I don't risk much in high sec, so i don't get much. However, I'm not risking my +5 implants and i'm gaining SP. Nullers are risking isk in order to gain SP.
I personally think that apart from not having an updated clone and being in a t3, there should be no tie between risks and SP.
Reguardless of what anyone risks, we should all have the same potential for SP per min at equal risk. |
flapie 2
Eternal Darkness. G00DFELLAS
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:51:00 -
[240] - Quote
I agree to disagree really.
Yes it maybe a blockade from some "New players" to get into low/null sec. But no it should not just be removed, as they have more impact on the game then the older "learning skills" (at least that's my POV).
Now a long long long time ago, when eve was still young and graphically a lot less >< CCP toyed with the idea of making implants that had attributes that stayed with the Player even after destruction. Sadly enough some tw.at trashed that idea and the +5 implants is the last improvement we saw in this area.
I would like to use this topic to petition the comeback of this older idea, make implants that have a attribute set that is fixed after using them, or revamp all the implants to have say 1/3 of the points stay (+3 would then give +1 if you get podded) and maybe introduce a skill to get 2/3 when trained at level 4 or 5 (+3 would then give +2 when podded). And when plugging a implant back in they recalculated the values (you lost a +3 and bought a +5, now you still have +3.3 when podded).
Sounds like a fair idea to me tbh. |
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