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Ryshar
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Learning implants are not evil or unfair. However, they are unnecessary and they give new pilots a bad first taste of EVE. Why bad? Well, new pilots immediately find out that getting into the ships they want to fly takes time. The learning implants reduce that time, and newbies will focus on getting those implants as soon as possible once they find out about them. However, they are relatively expensive for a new player and after they plug in the implants, they don't want to lose them.
For a beginner, those implants represent more than just the gametime they spent to get them. They mined or ran missions for days to get them, and to lose them would not only set them back tens of millions of ISK, it would gimp their character progression. After a new players gets these implants in his head, he becomes extremely risk averse. The idea of being podded is pretty scary to a newbie when he's carrying so much in his head.
After having learned this new behavior, a new pilot is much more likely to avoid going into lowsec or nullsec. This is generally bad for EVE. Aside from the obvious implications this has on new player experiences (they get really bored saving the damsel and killing Kruul and quit), this is not good for the EVE market. PvP is an ISK sink, and ships getting blown up creates demand for new ships.
I'm not saying that getting rid of learning implants is THE solution to getting more hisec bears out of their shells, but it would help new players be less risk-averse. Not everyone likes to PvP, but the way things are now, I don't think newbies are being given a fair chance to try it. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
567
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds like it would benefit people who get blown up a ton a great deal as well.
As a member of a coalition that regularly gets its people blown up, I cannot help but support this, though I have no idea if you are trolling or not ... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'd agree with the OP
I'm currently looking at my SP/hour and going hmm I'd like to try some FW but hmm that's going to dmg my rate if I get podded, I pretty much have OCD when it comes to these types of things so I'm sitting here going just one more skill before I take risk it, no just one more!
At this rate I might still be saying this in two years time |
Falcon Drop
Tactical Research LTD
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Want all the SP which was accelerated by them till now be removed from everybody? |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't like them either. They're a pretty heavy disincentive for me to do anything in w-space or null. It took years just to get rid of learning skills though, so I'm not holding my breath. |
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
If I remember correctly ( I think it was during a debate with Rvrni on Eve radio), the great Mittens mentionned he would support the removal of implants because apparently it discourages a lot of players to get into PvP fights.
I think I agree with him. |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Falcon Drop wrote:Want all the SP which was accelerated by them till now be removed from everybody?
No of course not what would be the point of that. |
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
Comes to mind.
It's not just starships and modules. Whether it's somone fast-skilling for and scrounging together a Battleship that is then blown out of space or some implants. There are those who stay risk-averse after a loss and those that won't.
At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2341
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
So what about hardwirings? They give significant bonuses to your performace and ISK earning potential, while being just as available and potentially costing even more than attribute implants. Not using them gimps you when competing against people who do use them, meaning pretty much everyone these days. If you just remove learning implants, people are going to stick performance implants in their place at the start, be unwilling to risk them and we will be pretty much back to square one.
This topic has been discussed to death though, if you want to see all the arguments and ideas, just read this thread. |
Hemera Asques
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Learning implants motivate people to spend 20$ on a PLEX during their first few days in-game.
I call that win. |
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Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
600
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Grudging agree with the OP
When i first started this game i was fearless. I went all over nullsec in a noob ship and did not care what happened. Once i got my +5s i did not leave highsec for 6 months and now i spent most of my time in a clone with no implants.
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Pinstar Colton
New Lunar Republic Special Tactics Squadron
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Eve is a game of risk and reward. If you do not want to risk the ISK investment in implants (Attribute boosting or otherwise) then you must give up the reward of having them implanted.
EVE does give us a tool to manage this risk: Jump Clones.
You can temporarily give up the benefit of your high priced implants to reduce your risk while still having the option to return to the body with those implants at a later date. This allows you to wander into low/null without worrying about your quarter billion + original body being at risk.
I don't make minerals. I just make ore 20% cooler. |
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
There's these things I heard about, I think they are called.... J... Ju... Jump ... Jump Clones? Yeah, that's it! Jump Clones. You can get implants in one, and have no implants or cheaper implants in another and use one to PVP and one to not PVP.
Get this: I also heard you don't need standings to install them in your nullsec corps station and that there are corps in the market section that let you join, get jump clones, and leave. Free.
I also heard that +3s are cheaper than +4s, and +2s are cheaper than +3s, and so on. A wise man once said: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Implants go in your pod and you fly your pod so it applies.
Oh and no one makes you have implants. |
Acheron Cyc
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
So, you want to reduce the risk involved for those that do heavy pvp and get podded often, disguised as something of benefit for new players?.
How about no?.
When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
|
Tillin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
What |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
568
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Acheron Cyc wrote:So, you want to reduce the risk involved for those that do heavy pvp and get podded often, disguised as something of benefit for new players?.
How about no?.
When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
Don't they give you implants in the newbie missions? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
Comes to mind.
It's not just starships and modules. Whether it's somone fast-skilling for and scrounging together a Battleship that is then blown out of space or some implants. There are those who stay risk-averse after a loss and those that won't.
At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones.
The Jump Clone thing is over-rated. Yes if you want to do something risky you can go use the jumpclone, but now you're stuck in "low risk, low SP" mode for 24 hours. And stuck again in "high risk, high SP" mode for another 24 hours once you switch back.
Someone else brought up hardwiring. The difference is this. Hardwirings make me better at what I'm doing "right now". On that basis I can take them or leave them easily enough. But learning implants make me able to do "new things" in a few weeks/months. And being able to do new things is what keeps the game interesting. My time spent in game peaks every time I "unlock" a new skillset, and drops off pretty fast if I spent too long trying to get the next one. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Acheron Cyc wrote:So, you want to reduce the risk involved for those that do heavy pvp and get podded often, disguised as something of benefit for new players?.
How about no?.
When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
Don't they give you implants in the newbie missions?
They give you some +1s, yes. But the big push was to get those +3s that still only required Cybernetics I. A full set of those is 50mill, and that's not easy for a newbie to replace. Once I got them I did nothing but grind level 2s and 3s till I had enough standing for a jump clone, so I could go do some wormholes.
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1339
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Andski already made this post and did it better.
And yes, I agree with the idea. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Hulkageddon Orphanage
1110
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
We should also get rid of T2 ships as it makes fewer people want to pvp in them |
|
Eva Lawson
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Agreed with OP; I want to PvP; I'm aware that this is a PvP-centric game and I don't want to be completely ignorant when it comes to that. But I AM new, and in my race to get just my skills on-par with the weakest nullsec warrior, I've been mission running nonstop to gather up ISK and shovel it back out for +4s, just to take a few hours of my 10d training times. A podding would cost me a month's worth of gametime and an obscene (to me) amount of ISK.
Quote:When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
Also, that. That would be the perfect balance and I wouldn't have to worry about carrying a hundred mil worth of hardware in my head just to get some respectable skills. Then I'd be more than happy to take a risk and start practicing some PvP. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
568
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:We should also get rid of T2 ships as it makes fewer people want to pvp in them But the miners would object if you took away their hulks. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Real Poison
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Must say attribute enhancing implants are just a turn-off for pvp. And they add absolutely nothing to gameplay. I'd love to see them go the way of learning skills.
That'd make room for more awesome Hardwirings that add something to gameplay and still gives the risk and the chance for mockery by ppl that blow the pod up.
+1 |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:So what about hardwirings? They give significant bonuses to your performace and ISK earning potential, while being just as available and potentially costing even more than attribute implants. Not using them gimps you when competing against people who do use them, meaning pretty much everyone these days. If you just remove learning implants, people are going to stick performance implants in their place at the start, be unwilling to risk them and we will be pretty much back to square one. This topic has been discussed to death though, if you want to see all the arguments and ideas, just read this thread. For me there is a big difference in attribute enhancers and hardwirings.
While the need to be competitive is present, cost already extends into other areas like ship fittings and faction/T2/T3 ships. The dynamic of risking more for increased performance is one of the core elements of game play and since hardwirings fit directly into that I don't see an issue. There is also the point that since hardwires provide actual ship performance enhancement they can be purposed for PVP directly, whereas learning implants cannot.
The problem with attribute enhancers in particular is that just replacing them doesn't make up for time spent without them. Every hour spent with a +3 is worth less SP wise than that same hour with a +4 or +5. And since the effect only becomes more apparent over time we begin to see that cost is only half of the issue, and that the variance in learning is what tends to make attribute enhancers have a greater affect on risk aversion than hardwires. |
Indalecia
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones.
/thread |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
549
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Implants don't bug me. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Indalecia wrote:Romar Agent wrote:At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones. /thread Minimizing risk by negating the usefulness of those implants doesn't really address the issue as much as skirt around it. After all, if you're not going to use the training boost, why get it? And why should I have to choose between 24 hours at full training speed and a few hours of PvP? |
Nephilius
Knights of Athena Star Council
392
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
I told you so.
You're welcome. To call me a Carebear is a misnomer...while it is true that I am hairy like a bear (or two russian women), I really don't care.-á Like, at all.-á Call me an Apathybear.-á Just don't call if you need assistance. |
Di Mulle
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
I'd say removal of the cost of ships and modules will reduce that "fear of PVP" way way more. <<Insert some waste of screen space here>> |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
well 8 years ok only 10% of the playerbase supported removing learning at all *I was one of them!* but then after a dev mentioned it oce at fanfest off hand in an interview, by the time it happen most people were in agreement that learning skills had to go. THANK GOD. Do you know how many times I was called a dumbass for wanting CCP to remove learning skills? Being told it was dumbing down the game and so on?
Whatever they said keep fighting for it. Implants giving you bonuses to learning skills a bit faster is kinda dumb, and only follows logic that they should be removed as well. Maybe have more extremes possibilities in the attributes again in return for removing the implants?
I mean, hell, why not. Let us go up to 30 and down to 15. Let players have to make a real choice that they can't change for a whole year. How fast do you want to train what. Maybe even give some of those bloodlines some bonuses to base attributes again. I do miss that.
OP, I think you're 100% justified and you've got my support. |
|
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Di Mulle wrote:I'd say removal of the cost of ships and modules will reduce that "fear of PVP" way way more. SiSi is proof of this. |
Geoscape
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"
Get rid of learning implants.
|
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Quote:For me there is a big difference in attribute enhancers and hardwirings.
EXACTLY
in my opinion the noob missions should drop a bunch of hardwirings, and promote the idea that fitting implants to increase your combat skill should be as common as fitting out your ship. But due to these stupid implants it's not.
|
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
Geoscape wrote:"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"
Get rid of learning implants.
OR cut down on the time it takes to clone jump. like 3 hours instead of 24 |
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
275
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
I agree with this proposal but I'm on the fence atm. Stuff Goes here |
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:18:00 -
[36] - Quote
Geoscape wrote:"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"
Get rid of learning implants.
Or the timer. I don't really think removing the timer completely is a good idea, but at a minimum CCP needs to drop it to 12 hours.
My suggestion is CCP needs to find out the amount of time the average person plays per day. I mean really plays, not sits afk in a station. I assume it's going to be around 4-6 hours. Whatever that amount of time is, that should be the length of the JC timer. But that is a thread all its own. |
Damsel in Distress
Men staring at Boobs
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:they get really bored saving the damsel and killing Kruul and quit
Sorry |
Stetson Eagle
ROC Academy The ROC
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Are learning implants necessary? No. Do they add to the game? The way I see it, no. I want the game to be more about the nullsec sandbox, and learning implants are (although a small and non imperative) intentive to stay in highsec.
Personally I'd like to see the learning implants go. They are an unnecessary level of complexity in a game that's main issue is it's unnecessary levels of complexity. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:So what about hardwirings? They give significant bonuses to your performace and ISK earning potential, while being just as available and potentially costing even more than attribute implants. Not using them gimps you when competing against people who do use them, meaning pretty much everyone these days. If you just remove learning implants, people are going to stick performance implants in their place at the start, be unwilling to risk them and we will be pretty much back to square one. This topic has been discussed to death though, if you want to see all the arguments and ideas, just read this thread.
But that's the point. you allways learn skills even when your in stations those learning impants are doing something. If you're willing to buy 40 million in combat implants you've obviously going to risk them. how is this any different than people using expensive fits in spaceships?
The price of combat implants are only justified if you undock. Otherwise why would you buy them in the 1st place if you weren't going to use them? Your not going to sit in your expensive clone for months waiting for a fight you want to get into.
Karn Dulake wrote:Grudging agree with the OP
When i first started this game i was fearless. I went all over nullsec in a noob ship and did not care what happened. Once i got my +5s i did not leave highsec for 6 months and now i spent most of my time in a clone with no implants.
ouch yeah I've been there
Acheron Cyc wrote:So, you want to reduce the risk involved for those that do heavy pvp and get podded often, disguised as something of benefit for new players?.
How about no?.
When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
these people use implants that actually increase combat stats. People would be able to use them 24/7 if there were no learning implants that could take up the same spot. how awesome is that?
Maybe that's the real issue here. learning implants take the same spot as combat implants. That doesn't make much sense if you think about it. |
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:26:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Indalecia wrote:Romar Agent wrote:At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones. /thread Minimizing risk by negating the usefulness of those implants doesn't really address the issue as much as skirt around it. After all, if you're not going to use the training boost, why get it? And why should I have to choose between 24 hours at full training speed and a few hours of PvP? Agreed the Jump clones-method is more suitable if you spend prolonged periods in changing occupations. Like when you spend a couple of weeks fighting in Low or Null, then go mining (*gaah*) in High, then play on another account for a couple of weeks while the first one is holed up with maxed implants.
It's all about balancing risk/benefit.
Completely personal choice, of course. |
|
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Adria Origin wrote:Geoscape wrote:"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"
Get rid of learning implants.
Or the timer. I don't really think removing the timer completely is a good idea, but at a minimum CCP needs to drop it to 12 hours. My suggestion is CCP needs to find out the amount of time the average person plays per day. I mean really plays, not sits afk in a station. I assume it's going to be around 4-6 hours. Whatever that amount of time is, that should be the length of the JC timer. But that is a thread all its own.
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game. |
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:38:00 -
[42] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game. You clearly missed my first reply.
Adria Origin wrote:There's these things I heard about, I think they are called.... J... Ju... Jump ... Jump Clones? Yeah, that's it! Jump Clones. You can get implants in one, and have no implants or cheaper implants in another and use one to PVP and one to not PVP. Get this: I also heard you don't need standings to install them in your nullsec corps station and that there are corps in the market section that let you join, get jump clones, and leave. Free. I also heard that +3s are cheaper than +4s, and +2s are cheaper than +3s, and so on. A wise man once said: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Implants go in your pod and you fly your pod so it applies. Oh and no one makes you have implants. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
612
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
Adria Origin wrote:MotherMoon wrote:also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game. You clearly missed my first reply. Adria Origin wrote:There's these things I heard about, I think they are called.... J... Ju... Jump ... Jump Clones? Yeah, that's it! Jump Clones. You can get implants in one, and have no implants or cheaper implants in another and use one to PVP and one to not PVP. Get this: I also heard you don't need standings to install them in your nullsec corps station and that there are corps in the market section that let you join, get jump clones, and leave. Free. I also heard that +3s are cheaper than +4s, and +2s are cheaper than +3s, and so on. A wise man once said: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Implants go in your pod and you fly your pod so it applies. Oh and no one makes you have implants.
yeah because that level of complexity is something new players will figure out.
Eve has a lot of "hidden features" and right cick menus and things that are hard to understand. A lot of these add a level of skill to playing eve. It's like learning how to use maya more than a video game.
I've been here for 7 years so I KNOW how to jump clone, but I do wish it on others. Everyone should get one free jump clone without having to go through corps or backwards system. Anything that requires you to tab out of the game to go check a forum needs to get taken out of eve.
When you start playing eve online, creating a jump clone should be part of the tutorial. |
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote: yeah because that level of complexity is something new players will figure out.
Eve has a lot of "hidden features" and right cick menus and things that are hard to understand. A lot of these add a level of skill to playing eve. It's like learning how to use maya more than a video game.
I've been here for 7 years so I KNOW how to jump clone, but I do wish it on others. Everyone should get one free jump clone without having to go through corps or backwards system. Anything that requires you to tab out of the game to go check a forum needs to get taken out of eve.
When you start playing eve online, creating a jump clone should be part of the tutorial.
Why are you leaving eve to go to the forum. IGB ftw.
And yeah a free JC at the start would be beneficial. Start with the skill at level 1 and 1 free JC. I'm for that definitely. Would make training alts easier too. |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Read OP. Speed read thread.
Death has to have meaning. Implants, especially specific sets add meaning to PVP. Losing snakes in a deadspace fit faction ship because of a tactical error makes players sweat. Realising that you are in your +5s in the middle of fight after you have just invested all your liquid isk into speculation really does add to this game.
In regards to new players I think the tutorial introduces them to implants rather succinctly. While I started playing before the introduction of the tutorial, I run a new alt through the tutorial each patch to see how it has developed. If I was a new player, the discovery of implants would not put me off but give me a glimpse of increasing depth the game has.
That segways nicely into my third point, Eve is a deep deep game. By simplifying the game to enhance the "new player experience" CCP run the risk of removing the mystery and depth the game has. The game has grown and prospered over 9 years - games that give everything up front and allow players to be an expert after 6 months are either called WOW or don't last beyond 3 years.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
As much as I like using implants to speed up my training, (currently 2580 sp per hour) they do put some folk off getting more involved in pvp, so I would support their removal from the game.
Andski put the case well in his thread.
You want fries with that? |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
523
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:09:00 -
[47] - Quote
A way to meet in the middle with this issue, just make (learning)implants degrade after so many deaths. Still have the risk of losing them if you die a lot. but at the same time its not a single death and 500m gone in implants alone. |
Ursula Thrace
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:57:00 -
[48] - Quote
agree with OP. especially, that last paragraph. |
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
1111
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:04:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:PvP is an ISK sink Completely incorrect, it's actually the opposite, but I agree with your post.
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Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
246
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
No just don't use them if you don't want too.
I have yet to use +5 in any of my characters I use +3' cause they are cheap and easy to replace.
Saying your not going to PvP because of your implants is just an excuse.
Especially for a high-sec mission runner who will have access to jump clones. Or a 0.0 dweller who will have jump clones.
Getting rid of implants will serve no purpose cause those who don't want to PvP will just find another excuse.
Besides why would you want to reduce your choices in game ?
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Sid Hudgens
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:20:00 -
[51] - Quote
I can tell you that the learning implants can get new EVE players into a bad place in game. It happened to me and several people that I know. The cycle goes like this:
1. Start playing eve - learning, reading, tutorials, holy crap this is cool, what a deep game, etc 2. Hey I finished some skills and now I can fly a bigger, cooler ship! Sweet! 3. I wonder if I can train these skills faster so I can fly more even cooler ships? 4. Attribute implants! Perfect! ... and expesive 5. Grind ... Grind ... Grind 6. Woohoo implants! Evemon says this is gonna save so much time. 7. PVP? And loose the implants I spent all that time grinding for? No way! 8. Hmmm ... jump clones you say? Yes that's pefect then I can try pvp without loosing my implants! 8. I need to get my standings to what? 9. Grind missions 10. Grind missions 11. Grind missions 12. Grind missions 13. This game is so boring, **** this.
And that is why I quit EVE the first time I tried it. Same for some friends ... because of the damn jump clone standings grind. I came back; they haven't yet. Part of the reason I came back is because I learned about the Estel Arador corp and the shortcut to jump clones. Not sure if that service was around when I quit the first time but I know I hadn't heard of it.
I guess I would say that maybe the issue is more with jump clones than it is with learning implants.
I don't think any of it is an issue for veteran players ... but they can really get a newbie off the track of having fun at the beginning. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
This post has been brought to you by an NPC corp alt. |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
302
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:29:00 -
[52] - Quote
Sid Hudgens wrote:I can tell you that the learning implants can get new EVE players into a bad place in game. It happened to me and several people that I know. The cycle goes like this:
1. Start playing eve - learning, reading, tutorials, holy crap this is cool, what a deep game, etc 2. Hey I finished some skills and now I can fly a bigger, cooler ship! Sweet! 3. I wonder if I can train these skills faster so I can fly more even cooler ships? 4. Attribute implants! Perfect! ... and expesive 5. Grind ... Grind ... Grind 6. Woohoo implants! Evemon says this is gonna save so much time. 7. PVP? And loose the implants I spent all that time grinding for? No way! 8. Hmmm ... jump clones you say? Yes that's pefect then I can try pvp without loosing my implants! 8. I need to get my standings to what? 9. Grind missions 10. Grind missions 11. Grind missions 12. Grind missions 13. This game is so boring, **** this.
And that is why I quit EVE the first time I tried it. Same for some friends ... because of the damn jump clone standings grind. I came back; they haven't yet. Part of the reason I came back is because I learned about the Estel Arador corp and the shortcut to jump clones. Not sure if that service was around when I quit the first time but I know I hadn't heard of it.
I guess I would say that maybe the issue is more with jump clones than it is with learning implants.
The problem is that something needs to change at step 9. Easiest thing to do is join a jump clone corp like Astel, but I think it was earlier in this thread where someone said you should be able to get one jump clone for free (like you can get one Research agent for free or one PI station for free, but you need Research Project Management or Interplanetary Consolidation). It should also be a tutorial mission so that people can understand the mechanic. Give them a +1 implant after they sucessfully clone jump as a reward.
(secondary part) To offset the imporvment you would offset the jump clone timer by 30-60 minutes per level of Infomorph Pyschology. Hey CCP, there is still drone poop in the loot soup! |
stoicfaux
1011
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:30:00 -
[53] - Quote
Replace implants and hardwires with drugs/boosters and/or temporary implants. This creates an isk sink, allows players to pay small amounts over time instead of paying one big chunk of change at once for an implant, and thus removes the disincentive of losing a lot of isk when podded. It would also make "implants" more flexible, in that drugs/boosters/temp_implants can be changed more often without having to rely on jump clones and without the disincentive of a great loss of isk.
Basically, smaller daily/weekly/monthly payments versus a big one time payment.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
769
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:40:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:Learning implants are not evil or unfair. However, they are unnecessary and they give new pilots a bad first taste of EVE. Why bad? Well, new pilots immediately find out that getting into the ships they want to fly takes time. The learning implants reduce that time, and newbies will focus on getting those implants as soon as possible once they find out about them. However, they are relatively expensive for a new player and after they plug in the implants, they don't want to lose them.
For a beginner, those implants represent more than just the gametime they spent to get them. They mined or ran missions for days to get them, and to lose them would not only set them back tens of millions of ISK, it would gimp their character progression. After a new players gets these implants in his head, he becomes extremely risk averse. The idea of being podded is pretty scary to a newbie when he's carrying so much in his head.
After having learned this new behavior, a new pilot is much more likely to avoid going into lowsec or nullsec. This is generally bad for EVE. Aside from the obvious implications this has on new player experiences (they get really bored saving the damsel and killing Kruul and quit), this is not good for the EVE market. PvP is an ISK sink, and ships getting blown up creates demand for new ships.
I'm not saying that getting rid of learning implants is THE solution to getting more hisec bears out of their shells, but it would help new players be less risk-averse. Not everyone likes to PvP, but the way things are now, I don't think newbies are being given a fair chance to try it.
NO
Just because you get blown up with them in your non-JumpCloned Self because you are a terribad player............
I call monstrously GIGANTIC TROLL
And if not Troll.........GTFO.
Hilmar is laughing at your terrible idea.
Another brainless dweeb who thinks EVE is PvP ONLY and not a Sandbox.
Please, go play WoW. "Every other expansion has catered to the pew-pew need for more things to blow up; to more public cries of, "see how valuable I am!" - anon-á "You have to understand that the human ego will do whatever it takes to get attention because it needs to know that it exists." -- RuPaul |
Pres Crendraven
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
All for some change here, Some good ideas mentioned. Should drop this idea over in features and Ideas also.
Grinding standings is just bad for the pvp game too.
They want to keep death real painful, I think thats whats in the balance. Meta34me
Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
769
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:44:00 -
[56] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.
You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around.
FU...and I mean that sincerely.
If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox.
If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks. "Every other expansion has catered to the pew-pew need for more things to blow up; to more public cries of, "see how valuable I am!" - anon-á "You have to understand that the human ego will do whatever it takes to get attention because it needs to know that it exists." -- RuPaul |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
769
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:45:00 -
[57] - Quote
Pres Crendraven wrote:
Grinding standings is just bad for the pvp game too.
.
See what I mean. What a self-entitled git. "Every other expansion has catered to the pew-pew need for more things to blow up; to more public cries of, "see how valuable I am!" - anon-á "You have to understand that the human ego will do whatever it takes to get attention because it needs to know that it exists." -- RuPaul |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
769
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:46:00 -
[58] - Quote
This thread makes me sad TBH.
This would have been laughed off the forum 2 years ago. "Every other expansion has catered to the pew-pew need for more things to blow up; to more public cries of, "see how valuable I am!" - anon-á "You have to understand that the human ego will do whatever it takes to get attention because it needs to know that it exists." -- RuPaul |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3846
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:50:00 -
[59] - Quote
Give it to the dust bunnies to manufacture.
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Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:52:00 -
[60] - Quote
Remove Learning Implants! |
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
438
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:57:00 -
[61] - Quote
removing learning implants.... wait what? what's the use of jump clones then?
not sure if srs or trollin'.... [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Loike
The Alpha and the Omega Inver Brass
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:57:00 -
[62] - Quote
Why is it that the people who know how to play this game are continuously being forced to give things up so the stupids can catch up? If you suck now with implants a few more sp aren't going to help your game at all....>>sp does not mean you win EVE, leave the 1% alone already. |
Morrigu Storm
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:57:00 -
[63] - Quote
I suppose you'll want to get rid of learning skills as well since the poor noobs could spend their time training more useful skills instead!
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Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
214
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:57:00 -
[64] - Quote
OP is flapping in the wind. So is this entire thread.
Nothing clever at this time. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:58:00 -
[65] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:NO Just because you get blown up with them in your non-JumpCloned Self because you are a terribad player............ I call monstrously GIGANTIC TROLL And if not Troll.........GTFO. Hilmar is laughing at your terrible idea. Another brainless dweeb who thinks EVE is PvP ONLY and not a Sandbox. Please, go play WoW. No one said anything about getting podded in clones with learning implants. Rather that many avoid risks they would otherwise take to keep training at higher speeds. If you are the type of player who can avoid ever getting their pod caught, great. Implant prices and trade volumes on lesser implants would suggest that not everyone is quite so capable.
And I have no idea where your comment about people thinking this is a PvP only sandbox comes from in this context. |
Kobal81
Awesome Corp
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:00:00 -
[66] - Quote
Keep smoking that crack, Never gonna happen now go back under that rock and never speak again. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:00:00 -
[67] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:removing learning implants.... wait what? what's the use of jump clones then?
Changing sets of hardwires? Travel? |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
438
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:04:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grimpak wrote:removing learning implants.... wait what? what's the use of jump clones then?
Changing sets of hardwires? Travel? yeah that too, but still... [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
619
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
I think removing attribute (learning) implants is a terrible idea, unless CCP changes the core design and mechanics around character progression from the current time-table progression into progression tied to a time investment (ie. kill ten goblins, gain a level) model, which in itself is a awful design.
Instead I think CCP should start looking at redesigning, or remove entirely, the necessary standing requirements to be able to have jump clones and let new players start with the skill with a small tutorial of what they do and how they work. Another thing that CCP could, and should, take a look at is the training multipliers for a lot of skills because some of them seem more like common sense than a "specialization". I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Endeavour Starfleet
816
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:11:00 -
[70] - Quote
Leaning implants and clone cost per loss need to go. Getting your updated clone should be an expensive contract not a trip to the grocery store. For the TINY amount of isk they sink they cost the game a ton of potential PVP. Not to mention I have seen more than a few leave EVE when an accident of forgetting to reclone lead to a month + worth of training wiped out.
Remove learning implants and replace them with a universal +3 to all attributes. This is by far the most common setup anyway. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:15:00 -
[71] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Instead I think CCP should start looking at redesigning, or remove entirely, the necessary standing requirements to be able to have jump clones and let new players start with the skill with a small tutorial of what they do and how they work. The only issue this doesn't resolve is the one the op is most referencing, avoiding risk as a result of not wanting diminished training capacity.
To put is simply, learning implants in another clone don't help my training speed, so if I am so concerned about skill training I'm going to try to minimize my time in lesser clones and participate less in activities which would provide strong benefits to being in the lesser clone. |
Loike
The Alpha and the Omega Inver Brass
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:20:00 -
[72] - Quote
all missing the point, sure sp is nice but tbh there are faster ways to get it then training, grow a set, make some isk buy a toon that is already skilled and stop whining... |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
523
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:23:00 -
[73] - Quote
Removing them completely takes away from what Eve really is. Its suppose to reward those who take greater risks, the use of learning implants puts a large risk due to the cost and possible loss, yet is rewarded with faster skill training time. No one is forcing people to use learning implants or the most expensive, the old phrase only fly what you can afford to lose applies to implants as well.
Changing JC ability is something else that's an issue, but not in regards to implants. However its not hard to get a JC nor does it require grinding. You just have to know what to do and where to go. Making JCs standard or easier to get only opens Pandora's box to dumbing down Eve more so then it already has. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
438
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:23:00 -
[74] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Alpheias wrote:Instead I think CCP should start looking at redesigning, or remove entirely, the necessary standing requirements to be able to have jump clones and let new players start with the skill with a small tutorial of what they do and how they work. The only issue this doesn't resolve is the one the op is most referencing, avoiding risk as a result of not wanting diminished training capacity. To put is simply, learning implants in another clone don't help my training speed, so if I am so concerned about skill training I'm going to try to minimize my time in lesser clones and participate less in activities which would provide strong benefits to being in the lesser clone.
thing is, if it's not learning implants, it's my hardwirings. if it's not my hardwirings, it's my clone price if it's not my clone price, it's my ship if it's not my ship, it's my time.
in the end if we remove everything that makes EVE (and yes, loss is something that also drives EVE, or we wouldn't have alliances and their petty politics and pirates and whatever), EVE will stop being EVE and just become WoW in space. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Sid Hudgens
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:23:00 -
[75] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around.
FU...and I mean that sincerely.
If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox.
If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks.
You're an idiot. I have to say though, that I respect the amount of effort it must take to miss the point of the thread by such a huge margin.
Methinks if you were to "cash in and leave" ... nobody would care.
FU ... and I mean that sincerely.
"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
This post has been brought to you by an NPC corp alt. |
Ryshar
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:23:00 -
[76] - Quote
I would like to reiterate that I'm talking about a new player's perspective. EVE isn't all that easy to understand right up front (I still don't understand all of it and I've been playing for a while), but even a newbie can see that learning implants are better the sooner your character gets them. The sooner you get to frigates, the sooner you can get to cruisers, the sooner you get to battlecruiser, etc.
New pilots have a tendency to want to try a lot of things, so their skill trees are all over the place and I remember being incredibly excited about the implants because they'd let me find my niche faster. But, they also made me really, REALLY want to not get podded. I could afford to lose ships, but not my implants, so I rarely went looking for PvP, even though I really wanted to try it. Based on some of the responses in this thread, I don't believe I was alone in that.
Jump clones are the route that I took, but if it weren't for some random guy telling me about Estel Arador, I never would have ground the standings to get one. But even when I got one, I'd be more likely to look at my skill queue and say, "Well, I've got a little under a day before this is finished and then I train the thing I really want..." and then opt to not jump. The fact that those implants were in my head was a serious motivation to not do what I wanted to do, and IMO newbies should have the least to lose. Otherwise, they're a lot less likely to stick around.
In short, I'm not against implants at all, just these SPECIFIC implants. They help newbies the most, but they also train them to be more risk-averse than they'd be without them. They help older pilots too, but would they really care that much if everyone just had higher base stats? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:24:00 -
[77] - Quote
Loike wrote:all missing the point, sure sp is nice but tbh there are faster ways to get it then training, grow a set, make some isk buy a toon that is already skilled and stop whining... Slightly off topic but shouldn't it be considered problematic when the solution an issue boils down to removing character progression and just buying your way to whatever you want? |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
620
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:27:00 -
[78] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Alpheias wrote:Instead I think CCP should start looking at redesigning, or remove entirely, the necessary standing requirements to be able to have jump clones and let new players start with the skill with a small tutorial of what they do and how they work. The only issue this doesn't resolve is the one the op is most referencing, avoiding risk as a result of not wanting diminished training capacity. To put is simply, learning implants in another clone don't help my training speed, so if I am so concerned about skill training I'm going to try to minimize my time in lesser clones and participate less in activities which would provide strong benefits to being in the lesser clone.
I could argue the same mentality exists with those that doesn't risk being a legitimate target and therefor hides in NPC corps to avoid wardecs. No difference there either really.
Considering all of us have a finite amount of time in real-life, I prefer to make the skill training of my characters to be as optimal as possible until I can participate. I don't know about you but those are my thoughts on the matter. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:35:00 -
[79] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Alpheias wrote:Instead I think CCP should start looking at redesigning, or remove entirely, the necessary standing requirements to be able to have jump clones and let new players start with the skill with a small tutorial of what they do and how they work. The only issue this doesn't resolve is the one the op is most referencing, avoiding risk as a result of not wanting diminished training capacity. To put is simply, learning implants in another clone don't help my training speed, so if I am so concerned about skill training I'm going to try to minimize my time in lesser clones and participate less in activities which would provide strong benefits to being in the lesser clone. thing is, if it's not learning implants, it's my hardwirings. if it's not my hardwirings, it's my clone price if it's not my clone price, it's my ship if it's not my ship, it's my time. in the end if we remove everything that makes EVE (and yes, loss is something that also drives EVE, or we wouldn't have alliances and their petty politics and pirates and whatever), EVE will stop being EVE and just become WoW in space. I would agree with you totally, and to an extent still do, if it weren't for 2 issues:
1: Everything else but clone grades and learning implants have a direct affect on performance and therefore have an explicit reason to be used in combat. IE: Slaves are expensive for a full set, but they increase your combat survivability.
2: The affect of learning implants accumulate over time while other implants have their affect in full whenever they are in use. IE: I spend 24 hours in +3's instead of +5's and I've "lost" 4320 potential SP. This occurs for every 24 hours I'm not in the learning clone. Using slaves again, will yield me the same boost as they did prior regardless of the time I spend without them from death or clone choice. So I have no compelling reason to remain in the slave clone at all times unless there is an explicit reason to do otherwise. I only go to that clone when it is specifically beneficial. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:35:00 -
[80] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:removing learning implants.... wait what? what's the use of jump clones then?
It'd still get me from highsec to my base in nullsec in doublequick time.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:39:00 -
[81] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Alpheias wrote:Instead I think CCP should start looking at redesigning, or remove entirely, the necessary standing requirements to be able to have jump clones and let new players start with the skill with a small tutorial of what they do and how they work. The only issue this doesn't resolve is the one the op is most referencing, avoiding risk as a result of not wanting diminished training capacity. To put is simply, learning implants in another clone don't help my training speed, so if I am so concerned about skill training I'm going to try to minimize my time in lesser clones and participate less in activities which would provide strong benefits to being in the lesser clone. I could argue the same mentality exists with those that doesn't risk being a legitimate target and therefor hides in NPC corps to avoid wardecs. No difference there either really. Considering all of us have a finite amount of time in real-life, I prefer to make the skill training of my characters to be as optimal as possible until I can participate. I don't know about you but those are my thoughts on the matter. While the NPC corp thing was probably meant to be a jab at me, you are half correct. There is also the issue of having no effing clue of how to find a decent player corp, but yes, wardec immunity is something that I count as a benefit.
As for the statement of having finite time and wanting to train optimally, that was exactly my point. See my 2nd point to Grimpak. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:40:00 -
[82] - Quote
Loike wrote:Why is it that the people who know how to play this game are continuously being forced to give things up so the stupids can catch up? If you suck now with implants a few more sp aren't going to help your game at all....>>sp does not mean you win EVE, leave the 1% alone already.
More SP lets me try new things. That makes the game more interesting. |
Loike
The Alpha and the Omega Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:45:00 -
[83] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Loike wrote:Why is it that the people who know how to play this game are continuously being forced to give things up so the stupids can catch up? If you suck now with implants a few more sp aren't going to help your game at all....>>sp does not mean you win EVE, leave the 1% alone already. More SP lets me try new things. That makes the game more interesting.
buy a new toon and stop wasting your time training where really all you are doing is reinventing the wheel...somewhere out there there is a poorly trained toon that you could buy for cheap |
Loike
The Alpha and the Omega Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:46:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Loike wrote:all missing the point, sure sp is nice but tbh there are faster ways to get it then training, grow a set, make some isk buy a toon that is already skilled and stop whining... Slightly off topic but shouldn't it be considered problematic when the solution an issue boils down to removing character progression and just buying your way to whatever you want?
no, stop thinking like a scrub |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:47:00 -
[85] - Quote
Loike wrote:Takseen wrote:Loike wrote:Why is it that the people who know how to play this game are continuously being forced to give things up so the stupids can catch up? If you suck now with implants a few more sp aren't going to help your game at all....>>sp does not mean you win EVE, leave the 1% alone already. More SP lets me try new things. That makes the game more interesting. buy a new toon and stop wasting your time training where really all you are doing is reinventing the wheel...somewhere out there there is a poorly trained toon that you could buy for cheap If it's poorly trained why would I buy it and why wouldn't I train it further if for some reason I did buy it? And how does that not put me back where I started? |
Loike
The Alpha and the Omega Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:47:00 -
[86] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Grimpak wrote:removing learning implants.... wait what? what's the use of jump clones then?
It'd still get me from highsec to my base in nullsec in doublequick time.
get an actual corp and rent an office, death cloning is the best way to travel |
ConranAntoni
Empyrean Warriors The Obsidian Front
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
Thread has to be a troll, I know EvE has bags of stupid in all corners but to pour it into one thread is painful to see. |
Loike
The Alpha and the Omega Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:50:00 -
[88] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Loike wrote:Takseen wrote:Loike wrote:Why is it that the people who know how to play this game are continuously being forced to give things up so the stupids can catch up? If you suck now with implants a few more sp aren't going to help your game at all....>>sp does not mean you win EVE, leave the 1% alone already. More SP lets me try new things. That makes the game more interesting. buy a new toon and stop wasting your time training where really all you are doing is reinventing the wheel...somewhere out there there is a poorly trained toon that you could buy for cheap If it's poorly trained why would I buy it and why wouldn't I train it further if for some reason I did buy it? And how does that not put me back where I started?
that poorly trained alt in waiting has more sp and is better trained then what you have, think of it as trading in your old unused gold scraps for some shinier bling, no one is suggesting you stop training (stupid scrub) what is being said is that there are toons out there available to be purchased that are already trained,so
go get some isk and buy one and stop whining
|
Son IamaDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:50:00 -
[89] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grimpak wrote:removing learning implants.... wait what? what's the use of jump clones then?
Changing sets of hardwires? Travel? yeah that too, but still... I see your point, but uh...yeah...
|
Loike
The Alpha and the Omega Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:50:00 -
[90] - Quote
ConranAntoni wrote:Thread has to be a troll, I know EvE has bags of stupid in all corners but to pour it into one thread is painful to see.
roll with the troll dude |
|
Sid Hudgens
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:51:00 -
[91] - Quote
ConranAntoni wrote:...I know EvE has bags of stupid in all corners but to pour it into one thread...
Ah well that explains why you showed up.
"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
This post has been brought to you by an NPC corp alt. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
523
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:55:00 -
[92] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Grimpak wrote:removing learning implants.... wait what? what's the use of jump clones then?
It'd still get me from highsec to my base in nullsec in doublequick time.
And that is one of the major issues with JCs. Instant travel across Eve makes avoiding fights or potential fights much easier. That is bad btw.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:56:00 -
[93] - Quote
Loike wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Loike wrote:Takseen wrote:Loike wrote:Why is it that the people who know how to play this game are continuously being forced to give things up so the stupids can catch up? If you suck now with implants a few more sp aren't going to help your game at all....>>sp does not mean you win EVE, leave the 1% alone already. More SP lets me try new things. That makes the game more interesting. buy a new toon and stop wasting your time training where really all you are doing is reinventing the wheel...somewhere out there there is a poorly trained toon that you could buy for cheap If it's poorly trained why would I buy it and why wouldn't I train it further if for some reason I did buy it? And how does that not put me back where I started? that poorly trained alt in waiting has more sp and is better trained then what you have, think of it as trading in your old unused gold scraps for some shinier bling, no one is suggesting you stop training (stupid scrub) what is being said is that there are toons out there available to be purchased that are already trained,so go get some isk and buy one and stop whining Last response since your short on thinking it through and long on insults. If I have to train the character I buy to get it to the point I want it then the implants will again be useful to me and and leave me back in the same situation I was trying to get around, which was needing implants to train faster to get where I want to be. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:56:00 -
[94] - Quote
Loike wrote:Takseen wrote:Loike wrote:Why is it that the people who know how to play this game are continuously being forced to give things up so the stupids can catch up? If you suck now with implants a few more sp aren't going to help your game at all....>>sp does not mean you win EVE, leave the 1% alone already. More SP lets me try new things. That makes the game more interesting. buy a new toon and stop wasting your time training where really all you are doing is reinventing the wheel...somewhere out there there is a poorly trained toon that you could buy for cheap
So your solution to me being risk averse due to not having the ISK to easily replace my learning implants...is to buy another toon for ISK? Sounds like you need better learning implants, mate.
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4015
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:56:00 -
[95] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.
You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around. FU...and I mean that sincerely. If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox. If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks.
yeah you are surely experiencing everything EVE has to offer by mining in hisec with hulks "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:59:00 -
[96] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Takseen wrote:Grimpak wrote:removing learning implants.... wait what? what's the use of jump clones then?
It'd still get me from highsec to my base in nullsec in doublequick time. And that is one of the major issues with JCs. Instant travel across Eve makes avoiding fights or potential fights much easier. That is bad btw.
Being able to travel to nullsec makes it easier for me to *avoid* fights? Ok brah...
PS, its the Covert Ops cloak that lets me easily avoid fights. The Jump Clone just saves me the 20+ jumps of tedium. |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
439
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
Learning implants are fine. Removing them would not create a magical paradise of endless pvp, because people are still in their heart of hearts afraid of losing (and will always be afraid of losing, even when the death penalties are zero).
Moreover, EVE needs loss. Removing that just steps us ever closer toward the endless field of boring PvPlite MMOs with no redeeming features and no lasting enjoyment.
Just, no. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4015
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:04:00 -
[98] - Quote
Learning implants incentivize risk aversion. They should definitely be removed. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
144
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:07:00 -
[99] - Quote
Chaos Incarnate wrote:Learning implants are fine. Removing them would not create a magical paradise of endless pvp, because people are still in their heart of hearts afraid of losing (and will always be afraid of losing, even when the death penalties are zero).
Moreover, EVE needs loss. Removing that just steps us ever closer toward the endless field of boring PvPlite MMOs with no redeeming features and no lasting enjoyment.
Just, no.
Pfft, slippery slope argument. Also Learning implants are bad because their cost scales poorly with that pilot's combat ability, and peaks relatively early. Expensive high sp clone = higher combat ability(90% of the time anyway,) Expensive hardwirings = higher combat ability Expensive ship and fittings = higher combat ability
And all but the hardwirings can be changed on the fly whenever you want to go do something risky.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
523
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:12:00 -
[100] - Quote
Takseen wrote:
Being able to travel to nullsec makes it easier for me to *avoid* fights? Ok brah...
PS, its the Covert Ops cloak that lets me easily avoid fights. The Jump Clone just saves me the 20+ jumps of tedium.
Brah makes you sound like an idiot. Many in null use JCs to jump back to empire to avoid fighting when their ratting grounds are camped, instead of fighting them off. It also causes less travel where you are vulnerable to being attacked. Cov Ops cloak is a way to bypass that but many still get caught due to tactics. With JCs these tactics are void since you just insta-jump.
Lastly if you are looking for fights why wouldn't you be in null to begin with? |
|
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
620
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:22:00 -
[101] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Chaos Incarnate wrote:Learning implants are fine. Removing them would not create a magical paradise of endless pvp, because people are still in their heart of hearts afraid of losing (and will always be afraid of losing, even when the death penalties are zero).
Moreover, EVE needs loss. Removing that just steps us ever closer toward the endless field of boring PvPlite MMOs with no redeeming features and no lasting enjoyment.
Just, no. Pfft, slippery slope argument. Also Learning implants are bad because their cost scales poorly with that pilot's combat ability, and peaks relatively early. Expensive high sp clone = higher combat ability(90% of the time anyway,) Expensive hardwirings = higher combat ability Expensive ship and fittings = higher combat ability And all but the hardwirings can be changed on the fly whenever you want to go do something risky.
Cute straw man. The amount of SP that a character has nothing to do with "combat ability", the experience that a player possess is everything.
I am surprised that someone like you, hiding in a NPC corp even after two years even dares mention risk. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
ConranAntoni
Empyrean Warriors The Obsidian Front
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
Sid Hudgens wrote:ConranAntoni wrote:...I know EvE has bags of stupid in all corners but to pour it into one thread... Ah well that explains why you showed up.
Pro retort ******.
EvE is a sandbox, and risk is a factor to all actions in the game, removing this removes a risk for pilots who are either A to stupid to keep their pod alive in high or lowsec or B think jamming +5s into your head then dicksmashing into a bubbled gate in null is a good idea.
Oh, and to reinforce what god knows how many people have pointed out previously; Jump Clones, I know their hard to get hold of, I mean its not like theres actual corps specificly set up to allow people to join to set up jump clones or anything like Jump Frog, so I clearly understand why we should all hold hands and circlejerk into empty clones instantly on day one and make absolutely zero effort to get to grips with risk/reward management of pvp or understanding that the things you want require *effort* such as grinding standings or joining somewhere that already has them.
Tl;dr losing your first pod is always a lesson in how not to be stupid. Remove the risk of losing your shiney bits in your skull and you remove the true danger of podding. You want HG slaves or +5s and you earn and lose them, you learn that things are finite and not to be ******** in how you approach EvE. |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
439
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:39:00 -
[103] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Pfft, slippery slope argument. Also Learning implants are bad because their cost scales poorly with that pilot's combat ability, and peaks relatively early. Expensive high sp clone = higher combat ability(90% of the time anyway,) Expensive hardwirings = higher combat ability Expensive ship and fittings = higher combat ability
And all but the hardwirings can be changed on the fly whenever you want to go do something risky.
Slippery slope is only a fallacy if there's no logical connection to the conclusion. If we use the same argument you're using here ("X should be removed because X causes loss which discourages PvP", where X is implant loss) and apply it broadly to eve, we should remove ship loss, skill loss, clone costs, and every source of loss in game. Your argument is, quite simply, loss is bad, therefore remove loss. That you've chosen to limit it to just implants here does not make it invalid to talk about the implications.
Moreover, the cost scaling is optional. No one's forcing +5s into your head every time you get podded. +4s are dirt cheap and cost less than your average BS. +1/2s are basically nothing, even for a newbie who should have a few million just out of the tutorials. |
Inquisitor Pain
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:50:00 -
[104] - Quote
48 million Sp here on my main, I started eve with some friends from another game, they all have 60 million SP but seldom leave highsec and fly around with +5s in their head. I'm not mad, all in all even though liveing in nullsec and lowsec meant seldom haveing more than +3s I believe I've had WAY more fun. leave the learning implants as is, let the highsec carebears have a faster learning rate, it's not like they're doing anthing important for my eve time other than buying my deadspace loots and pimping out their shiney ships that they will never willingly undock in if there is any chance of loseing it, the learning of sp is nothing in comparison to the learning how to have fun.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:51:00 -
[105] - Quote
ConranAntoni wrote: EvE is a sandbox, and risk is a factor to all actions in the game, removing this removes a risk for pilots who are either A to stupid to keep their pod alive in high or lowsec or B think jamming +5s into your head then dicksmashing into a bubbled gate in null is a good idea.
Oh, and to reinforce what god knows how many people have pointed out previously; Jump Clones, I know their hard to get hold of, I mean its not like theres actual corps specificly set up to allow people to join to set up jump clones or anything like Jump Frog, so I clearly understand why we should all hold hands and circlejerk into empty clones instantly on day one and make absolutely zero effort to get to grips with risk/reward management of pvp or understanding that the things you want require *effort* such as grinding standings or joining somewhere that already has them.
Tl;dr losing your first pod is always a lesson in how not to be stupid. Remove the risk of losing your shiney bits in your skull and you remove the true danger of podding. You want HG slaves or +5s and you earn and lose them, you learn that things are finite and not to be ******** in how you approach EvE.
It's already been pointed out that jump clones are an incomplete solution, seemingly stemming from a lack of understanding that one of the ways this issue manifests itself is people staying in safe areas with max learning implants to avoid risk and retain learning bonuses. Implants in another clone don't help you. As was stated rather succinctly:
Andski wrote:Learning implants incentivize risk aversion. All the talk of risk vs reward and yet we have a mechanic that rewards the risk averse. |
Sid Hudgens
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:56:00 -
[106] - Quote
ConranAntoni wrote:
Pro retort ******.
EvE is a sandbox, and risk is a factor to all actions in the game, removing this removes a risk for pilots who are either A to stupid to keep their pod alive in high or lowsec or B think jamming +5s into your head then dicksmashing into a bubbled gate in null is a good idea.
Oh, and to reinforce what god knows how many people have pointed out previously; Jump Clones, I know their hard to get hold of, I mean its not like theres actual corps specificly set up to allow people to join to set up jump clones or anything like Jump Frog, so I clearly understand why we should all hold hands and circlejerk into empty clones instantly on day one and make absolutely zero effort to get to grips with risk/reward management of pvp or understanding that the things you want require *effort* such as grinding standings or joining somewhere that already has them.
Tl;dr losing your first pod is always a lesson in how not to be stupid. Remove the risk of losing your shiney bits in your skull and you remove the true danger of podding. You want HG slaves or +5s and you earn and lose them, you learn that things are finite and not to be ******** in how you approach EvE.
A swing and a miss. But hey, you keep at it, pumpkin. If all of you hardcore eve pros try thinking about it really hard maybe you'll be able to grasp the point the OP, or myself or (according to an earlier post) even mittens is making about new players.
(Good lord do I actually agree with mittens on something? I suddenly feel I need a shower.) "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
This post has been brought to you by an NPC corp alt. |
Ryshar
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:49:00 -
[107] - Quote
There's nothing wrong with dying being serious and meaningful. But mining implants are for mining, PvP implants are for PvP, and learning implants are for learning. Two of these are actual gameplay, can you guess which ones? |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
620
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:01:00 -
[108] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:There's nothing wrong with dying being serious and meaningful. But mining implants are for mining, PvP implants are for PvP, and learning implants are for learning. Two of these are actual gameplay, can you guess which ones?
I'd suggest you plug in something that boosts your intelligence and wisdom, because this post of yours shows neither. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2345
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:19:00 -
[109] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:There's nothing wrong with dying being serious and meaningful. But mining implants are for mining, PvP implants are for PvP, and learning implants are for learning. Two of these are actual gameplay, can you guess which ones?
Yes, but the problem was, that people don't want to go in to risky situations because they fear an expensive loss. Removing learning implants doesn't solve that problem. It mitigates the initial problem, but mainly retains it and just shifts the problem around. This is why it's a bad solution to the proposed problem.
In my view the problem isn't training implants. They are the most obvious symptom. The problem is that you're married to your implant set for a mandatory 24h period. Think of it as being only able to switch ship fitting once during a 24h period. The solution isn't to fidle with modules to make PvP friendly fittings the norm, but to remove the artificial limitation, which is the cause of the entire problem. This limitation makes choosing the clone based on your current activity impossible, since you can't predict what happens in that 24h and you can't specialize your implants to every activity you want to do during that period. This pushes people to use good general purpose clones, that are the best during the normal expected gameplay. In many cases this heavily favors maximum training speed implants or PvE/industry hardwirings and causes the problems.
One solution would be to turn implant sets to something that are easily and conveniently changable. This way the entire problem is severly reduced with ALL implants. Since implants are permanent, the simple solution is allowing several implant clones, making access to them easier, so new players can get/afford them too(Maybe one free implant clone for everyone) and making local clone switching similar to ship switching, where you have many clones for your various different activities.
|
Disdaine
260
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:20:00 -
[110] - Quote
Those damn nullbears. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
577
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 05:03:00 -
[111] - Quote
It's fun to pod people with +5s in empire.
There were a few of those killmails obtained in Burn Jita and it was pretty great. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
391
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 05:16:00 -
[112] - Quote
What are empty jump clones? Ferox #1 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
577
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 05:18:00 -
[113] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:What are empty jump clones? Expensive biomass? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
91
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 05:43:00 -
[114] - Quote
Id love to see the idea of one time large fees instituted for both learning skills and clones as well as the lowering of jump clone standings requirements OR Estel Arador being advertised and recommended IN the tutorial as well as the infomorph psych skillbook being a mandatory drop and installment within the tutorial plan.
Learning implants that last however many deaths but cost a reduced equivalent of what they would be on market multiplied by the number of deaths allowed. Anywhere from 50 or so mil for +2s to a few hundred mil for +3s or +4s. Do NOT do this to +5s. Make something that is risky. Id almost opt out +4s myself and only have +2s and +3s available for the bulk death style of play. This would also allow those who will drop the isk on them the ability to fit LG or HG or the new Genolution implant sets ontop of that if they wish to put those sets at risk in PvP. Then give us more Genolution style sets with only 2 of each attribute affected but with other nifty bonuses. I really LOVE the Genolution sets for fittings and other bonus values.
Clone contracts. Make them one time fees per clone grade with unlimited deaths within that clone grade but up the cost. This way you will always reclone into the right clone unless you skill up beyond it. Make this at least 10-20 times the current clone grade costs. Can be weighted or averaged towards or away from certain clone grades based on playerwide information.
Jump clone standings shouldnt be such a grind. Perhaps 6.0 standing with a corp simply so that you do not give null sec +5 blues jump clones but must set corps or alliances +10 to give them jump clones as well. 6.0 Standings is just above L4 agents. If you give newbies the Estel option in the tutorial its not so much an issue though as then the vast majority of new players WILL be able to have jump clones immediately. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Nephilius
Knights of Athena Star Council
392
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:07:00 -
[115] - Quote
Considering the subject matter, saying it was posted better previously is pretty much like saying mining is better than missioning.
I said way back in the day that the removal of learning skills would lead down the slippery slope to things like this. Ever since I started playing this game almost four years ago, all I have heard is that Eve Online is a game of consequences. The results of your choices mean something. Just like if I choose to take my money that is for the electric, and go eat at a very expensive restaraunt followed by a night of partying at a club, the result should be my electric getting turned off for non-payment. Or if I drink mercury, I should die. Stuff like that, you know?
The removal of learning skills removed consequences from the game. Do you focus on learning skills, get them out of the way now? Do you juggle them with other skills in an attempt to find a balance in those initial weeks and months? Or do you ignore them completely, advancing quickly in the short term, but putting oneself at a disadvantage in the long term. Whatever choice you made, there was a consequence for that choice. Now, that consequence is a long distant memory.
And now people want to nix 1-5 implants. One less consequence to worry about, no cause and effect to have to accept, just some BS about how they hold people back from going off into nulsec and getting into pvp. Firstly, people hold people back from those things, not implants. Second, removing those implants will just remove a choice, a consequence, a result...nothing more.
Somwhow though, I'm really not surprised by this...people want easier, less choice, less consequence. You can see it everywhere in this game these days. Nerf it if you can't hit the I-Win button, for example. As time progresses, everything has gotten easier. Players now have it pretty easy compared to when I started. Back then, the character creation process was an in-depth thing, and after you allocated your attribute points, you were locked in. None of this neural remap crap. You had made your choice, and you had to live with it. There's that whole consequence thing again.
So take them out. Be my guest. Just remember that you wanted less choice, less consequence. You wanted your EZ mode, hopefully you get it. Ironically though, removing those 4s and 5s will make those KMs just a little less shiny, so there's that.
I'm not too surprised the thought originally came from a sect wanting to homogenize the game further. To call me a Carebear is a misnomer...while it is true that I am hairy like a bear (or two russian women), I really don't care.-á Like, at all.-á Call me an Apathybear.-á Just don't call if you need assistance. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
578
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:10:00 -
[116] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: Learning implants that last however many deaths but cost a reduced equivalent of what they would be on market multiplied by the number of deaths allowed. Anywhere from 50 or so mil for +2s to a few hundred mil for +3s or +4s. Do NOT do this to +5s. Make something that is risky. Id almost opt out +4s myself and only have +2s and +3s available for the bulk death style of play. This would also allow those who will drop the isk on them the ability to fit LG or HG or the new Genolution implant sets ontop of that if they wish to put those sets at risk in PvP. Then give us more Genolution style sets with only 2 of each attribute affected but with other nifty bonuses. I really LOVE the Genolution sets for fittings and other bonus values. Implant insurance. Interesting concept. A hefty upfront plus additional "cost-share" (or whatever the term is) each time you are podded might be interesting. Of course, the contract will be many times the cost of an implant, have a fixed term and a significant cost per podding.
Eeeh, sounds like a lot of coding work. Definitely not for special implants though, CONCORD insuring pirate type implants seems wrong... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:11:00 -
[117] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Read OP. Speed read thread.
Death has to have meaning. Implants, especially specific sets add meaning to PVP. Losing snakes in a deadspace fit faction ship because of a tactical error makes players sweat. Realising that you are in your +5s in the middle of fight after you have just invested all your liquid isk into speculation really does add to this game.
In regards to new players I think the tutorial introduces them to implants rather succinctly. While I started playing before the introduction of the tutorial, I run a new alt through the tutorial each patch to see how it has developed. If I was a new player, the discovery of implants would not put me off but give me a glimpse of increasing depth the game has.
That segways nicely into my third point, Eve is a deep deep game. By simplifying the game to enhance the "new player experience" CCP run the risk of removing the mystery and depth the game has. The game has grown and prospered over 9 years - games that give everything up front and allow players to be an expert after 6 months are either called WOW or don't last beyond 3 years.
no no the point is to keep everything but the ones that just decrease learning time |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:14:00 -
[118] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Removing them completely takes away from what Eve really is. .
they said the same about learning skills, is eve dumbed down now without them? |
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
392
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:16:00 -
[119] - Quote
EVE is not dumbed down without learning skills, but they are basically what the game is. Smart intelligent moves that may be boring but will help you progress in the long run. While many people may enjoy many aspects of the game in their own way, that is essentially what the entire game is. Ferox #1 |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:18:00 -
[120] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Replace implants and hardwires with drugs/boosters and/or temporary implants. This creates an isk sink, allows players to pay small amounts over time instead of paying one big chunk of change at once for an implant, and thus removes the disincentive of losing a lot of isk when podded. It would also make "implants" more flexible, in that drugs/boosters/temp_implants can be changed more often without having to rely on jump clones and without the disincentive of a great loss of isk.
Basically, smaller daily/weekly/monthly payments versus a big one time payment.
I like this. An isk based player built drug instead of implants. You take a pill, and you get +1/2/3/4/5 for 10-20 days. repeat and repeat. then your slots are freed up for PvP implants, which only justified buying if your going to be shooting something in space. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
578
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:22:00 -
[121] - Quote
It helps push people towards whole alt accounts I guess. So your supercap character (that needs cybernetics V anyway) can cook with +5s for a year (or less, since you use +5s). And after you get into your spacecoffin, losing .5bil of implants is the least of your worries. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:25:00 -
[122] - Quote
Andski wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.
You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around. FU...and I mean that sincerely. If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox. If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks. yeah you are surely experiencing everything EVE has to offer by mining in hisec with hulks
Best part is I'm a beta player, but whatever.
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.
You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around. FU...and I mean that sincerely. If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox. If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks.
IT's not fun to tell your allainc eyou have to wait 13 hours before you can clone jump out of your learning clone to get into the PvP roam they need you in. Maybe that's the issue, maybe we should be able to clone jum in station freely between different sets of clones as long as we aren't jump cloning...
oh... there's an idea.... multiple clones in a single station. That have no timer to wait for... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
578
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:28:00 -
[123] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:IT's not fun to tell your allainc eyou have to wait 13 hours before you can clone jump out of your learning clone to get into the PvP roam they need you in. Maybe that's the issue, maybe we should be able to clone jum in station freely between different sets of clones as long as we aren't jump cloning...
oh... there's an idea.... multiple clones in a single station. That have no timer to wait for... I don't know about the level 5 CTAs, since we don't have them, but I guess that would be annoying.
Still, removing timers might be seriously abuseable. I mean people howl at the suggestion to shave off 2 hours, for some reason. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:39:00 -
[124] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:EVE is not dumbed down without learning skills, but they are basically what the game is. Smart intelligent moves that may be boring but will help you progress in the long run. While many people may enjoy many aspects of the game in their own way, that is essentially what the entire game is.
So why not find a new way around this? If respecing your attributes for instance had a harsher curve to it, meaning you really have to pick carefully because it will effect you for a long time.
Or why not something else, like ... make every single hardwire in the game also have some sort of attribute enhancement. Then remove learning implants so every implant you could ever fit increases your combat skills and your learning time. This would make getting a set of +3's really cheap in a way since they would be a free add-on. And after thought if you will. People would buy an implant for it's benefits in combat, and thus go out and find some space combat with them equipped.
Here is an example Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Noble' ZET50
+1% armor hp +1 attribute point
+5% armor hp +3 attribute points
Maybe even make more sets, so implants work together in more ways. Because who buy a snake set , they undock with those , because they want the massive benefits they give in combat. and it's awesome because you can keep on learning skills faster.
See for me it's not a question of risk, it's more a question of usefulness. Why would undock in learning skills as an older player, if I wait 12 hours I can jump into my just as expensive combat clone. I mean I'm not going to go into combat wearing a set of learning implants, they give me no benefit in combat!! I'd rather wait for my clone jump so I can have my clone that gives me an edge in combat. Learning implants are only useful when your docked.
So why not make all combat implants give bonuses, or all learning implants should have a combat bonus. Either way it would be better. and not dumbed down, but more complex without the bottle neck the OP is pointing out. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:42:00 -
[125] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: Learning implants that last however many deaths but cost a reduced equivalent of what they would be on market multiplied by the number of deaths allowed. Anywhere from 50 or so mil for +2s to a few hundred mil for +3s or +4s. Do NOT do this to +5s. Make something that is risky. Id almost opt out +4s myself and only have +2s and +3s available for the bulk death style of play. This would also allow those who will drop the isk on them the ability to fit LG or HG or the new Genolution implant sets ontop of that if they wish to put those sets at risk in PvP. Then give us more Genolution style sets with only 2 of each attribute affected but with other nifty bonuses. I really LOVE the Genolution sets for fittings and other bonus values. Implant insurance. Interesting concept. A hefty upfront plus additional "cost-share" (or whatever the term is) each time you are podded might be interesting. Of course, the contract will be many times the cost of an implant, have a fixed term and a significant cost per podding. Eeeh, sounds like a lot of coding work. Definitely not for special implants though, CONCORD insuring pirate type implants seems wrong... No not insurance. Simply a larger upfront fee for the clone grade then unlimited clones at that grade. If you never skill beyond that grade then youd ever have to pay for a new clone contract again. If you were still skilling then eventually youd hit a new contract fee and have to pay it upfront again or go under cloned up to your existing contract.
Make it almost the same scale it is now just multiply it by 10-20 times the clone contract now for the unlimited and away you go. Also raise the base clone from 900K to something reasonable for noobs say a few million. Though itll be abused by alts Im sure.
Id even go so far as to make -5 and unders have to get special contracts from low sec agents only. Not sure if Id make it more expensive or not, just something interesting in the storyline to have to get it or to keep it due to them being "outlaws" and not able to deal with a reputable cloner. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:44:00 -
[126] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:MotherMoon wrote:IT's not fun to tell your allainc eyou have to wait 13 hours before you can clone jump out of your learning clone to get into the PvP roam they need you in. Maybe that's the issue, maybe we should be able to clone jum in station freely between different sets of clones as long as we aren't jump cloning...
oh... there's an idea.... multiple clones in a single station. That have no timer to wait for... I don't know about the level 5 CTAs, since we don't have them, but I guess that would be annoying. Still, removing timers might be seriously abuseable. I mean people howl at the suggestion to shave off 2 hours, for some reason.
Here is my suggestion. Have a cooldown timer based on the distance you clone jump. If you only jump a few systems you only have a small timer. If you jump into a new region you get a 24 hour timer.
with other timers in between 2-24 hours based on how useful the clone jump was basically.
so if you goal for clone jumping is to get into a new set of implants, hat's not very abusable. But obviously being able to jump around the universe with no limitation is broken as well.
Or a step farther would be why can't we just have multiple clones in a station yet? it used to be a limitation of the code but I'm sure eve could handle it now. have jump clones, and normal clones. Normal clones could be stacked just like ships are. You just right click one, and say make active clone, and BAM you're in a new clone, I mean, why not? what part of eve would be hurt if you could change the clone your in whenever you want? |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:49:00 -
[127] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:EVE is not dumbed down without learning skills, but they are basically what the game is. Smart intelligent moves that may be boring but will help you progress in the long run. While many people may enjoy many aspects of the game in their own way, that is essentially what the entire game is. This is ironically how life is as well. I support it entirely. Eve is a long term game. When I started we didnt know what implants WERE let alone learning skills. We learned with time though and its paid off in the long run. I hate short term players with I want it NOW mentalities. This is a game where you think 3-6 months down the road if not 6 months to a year. And thats as it should be so the loss of learning skills is what kept a lot of instant gratification babies out of Eve which I was very glad for. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:52:00 -
[128] - Quote
Yes. Some people see it. The game is that way because that is all it is. Admittedly the learning skills were on the more extreme end of boring, but the entire game is basically a less or more extreme version of them. It is in some ways to some people, satisfying to know they had taken the correct path for greater long run efficiency.
I do not think it was a good or bad idea, I am simply saying the entire game is the same to various degrees. Ferox #1 |
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 08:31:00 -
[129] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:I'd agree with the OP
I'm currently looking at my SP/hour and going hmm I'd like to try some FW but hmm that's going to dmg my rate if I get podded, I pretty much have OCD when it comes to these types of things so I'm sitting here going just one more skill before I take risk it, no just one more!
At this rate I might still be saying this in two years time It's almost impossible to get podded outside 0.0 unless you fly through a smartbomb camp in a small ship. Smartbomb camps are easy enough to avoid. Pods warp practically instantly. Without bubbles you will almost never get podded. Just start spamming warp when your ship gets to structure. |
LumpySnake
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:01:00 -
[130] - Quote
So, instead of simply not using learning implants, why do you want to force those who DO want to use them to give them up? Why are you trying to force other people to play the game YOUR way. If you dont like them dont use them, and let those who are willing to risk isk , Go about doing so, plain and simple. |
|
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:05:00 -
[131] - Quote
Don't even have to ditch them completely - just remove +5s and give everyone +1 to their base attributes. Downgrade all existing implants by one, leave +1s as they are and call it a day. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
525
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:50:00 -
[132] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Removing them completely takes away from what Eve really is. . they said the same about learning skills, is eve dumbed down now without them?
Yes and no. The issue with learning skills was that they where redundant, training skills just to skill others quicker. Implants on the other hand is a destructible investment. However removing learning skills did kind of take away from the ideology of patience that is needed in Eve, by doing the short term time investment in learning skills for long term gain. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:05:00 -
[133] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:[quote=Takseen]
Lastly if you are looking for fights why wouldn't you be in null to begin with?
Not finished training for stealth bombers yet, got sidetracked by the blaster buff and decided to get those first.
|
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:06:00 -
[134] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:I'm not saying that getting rid of learning implants is THE solution to getting more hisec bears out of their shells, but it would help new players be less risk-averse. Not everyone likes to PvP, but the way things are now, I don't think newbies are being given a fair chance to try it.
Two problems with your proposal.
Firstly, why do everyone assume that high-sec bears need to come out of their shell? This is a sandbox, why must I have every incentive to enjoy the industrial side of the game torn away and replaced with incentives to do Pew Pew combat? When will you realize that the many industrialists and market players in EVE are engaged in a different kind of PvP?
Secondly, there is absolutely no requirement for a newbie pilot to plug in expensive implants. Choosing to do so is exactly the same as choosing to buy an expensive faction module or ship, in that you risk a relatively large amount of ISK to get a relatively minor advantage over other players. By your logic we should then all be flying t1 frigates in combat, because it's unfair that new players could lose ISK if they were flying anything more expensive.
Additionally, if a newbie player wants to Pew Pew, but doesn't want to risk his implants, high-sec warfare and low-sec pew pew are viable options, as the lack of bubbles makes it nearly impossible to lose your clone if you know what you're doing.
|
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:13:00 -
[135] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:
Cute straw man. The amount of SP that a character has nothing to do with "combat ability", the experience that a player possess is everything.
I am surprised that someone like you, hiding in a NPC corp even after two years even dares mention risk.
Don't be an idiot. If you think that taking a veteran player with a 100m SP character and making him switch to a 2m SP character wouldn't decrease his combat ability you're delusional. There's probably a point where extra SP stops being effective, sure, and that'd be an argument in favour of capping medclone costs but not much else.
Being in an NPC corp is just a case of enjoying the chat, not wanting to join an actual corp, and not being particularly keen on being wardecced. I pick and choose when and where I want to take risks. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:36:00 -
[136] - Quote
Chaos Incarnate wrote:Takseen wrote:Pfft, slippery slope argument. Also Learning implants are bad because their cost scales poorly with that pilot's combat ability, and peaks relatively early. Expensive high sp clone = higher combat ability(90% of the time anyway,) Expensive hardwirings = higher combat ability Expensive ship and fittings = higher combat ability
And all but the hardwirings can be changed on the fly whenever you want to go do something risky.
Slippery slope is only a fallacy if there's no logical connection to the conclusion. If we use the same argument you're using here ("X should be removed because X causes loss which discourages PvP", where X is implant loss) and apply it broadly to eve, we should remove ship loss, skill loss, clone costs, and every source of loss in game. Your argument is, quite simply, loss is bad, therefore remove loss. That you've chosen to limit it to just implants here does not make it invalid to talk about the implications. Moreover, the cost scaling is optional.No one's forcing +5s into your head every time you get podded. +4s are dirt cheap and cost less than your average BS. +1/2s are basically nothing, even for a newbie who should have a few million just out of the tutorials.
All the cost scalings are optional, but some are more flexible than others. Clone cost is actually the least flexible. A 100m SP clone has to pay a fortune when podded even if they're only using a fraction of their SP at the time. I suppose the logic behind that is income should have scaled up to match the costs. Learning implants are slightly more flexible, since you can "remove" them temporarily with the 24 hour jumpclone cooldown. But there's still an incentive to use them as often as possible, even when you're not actually "doing" anything. Its not someone "forcing +5s into your head", its that you can't always force them out of your head even when you want to. Well you can by destroying them, but that'd be silly. Hardwirings have the same flexibility issues with jump clones, but atleast they're only useful in specific instances. I wasn't even aware of their existence for months, and didn't actually buy any for nearly a year. Ships and fittings are way more flexible. Sure there will be some minimum costs involved if say you want to join a BC fleet you obviously can't turn up in a frigate, but you vary the other costs a lot with T1/T2/faction/deadspace fittings and ammo.
|
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:48:00 -
[137] - Quote
Takseen wrote: I pick and choose when and where I want to take risks.
Just like any newbie, who intends to pew pew in null-sec, that plugs in a set of implants without a jump clone. They choose to risk their implants.
They could do like most other pilots that pew pew in null-sec. Get a jump-clone for training (easy if your corporation or alliance owns a station in null-sec), and for your combat clone you can plug in two +3 implants relevant to your current training path, which will only cost you around 15-20 to lose.
There is absolutely no need to change this mechanic, it would be irrational and hurt the game. So, yeah, it'll likely be on TQ in a patch or two.
|
Vito Antonio
State War Academy Caldari State
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 11:03:00 -
[138] - Quote
Jaffa! Stop worshiping Goa'uld! They are the false gods! Freedom for all jaffa! |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 11:12:00 -
[139] - Quote
.....and lets get rid of high sec.. because it gives noob players the wrong idea. and we should get rid of titans because that give noob players the wrong idea as well. (sic)
I'm afraid I don't agree with you. What makes you think that learning implants are designed for noobs.. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Dapud
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 11:21:00 -
[140] - Quote
Remove them and give everyone +6 to all attributes to punish those pompous Cybernetics V people. |
|
Sang-in Tiers
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 11:54:00 -
[141] - Quote
I agree with OP. |
Whitehound
239
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 12:38:00 -
[142] - Quote
It is the entire learning skills debate all over again...
Now people demand to remove attribute implants and soon thereafter they want skill ranks removed, and then they want the training itself removed but buy skills with ISKs.
CCP should never have removed learning skills. It is the fault of the stupid pre-Incarna period of CCP. And why did this all happen? Because we allowed lazy asses and free loaders into the game by selling game time for ISKs and we listen to their demands. Where is my pizza for ISKs? Logic demands pizza!
No more crappy expansions!-á-á Raise A Little Hell"20 percent of CCP staff fired." - CEO Hilmar-á-á No more crappy layoffs! |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
137
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:21:00 -
[143] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:Learning implants are not evil or unfair. However, they are unnecessary and they give new pilots a bad first taste of EVE. Why bad? Well, new pilots immediately find out that getting into the ships they want to fly takes time. The learning implants reduce that time, and newbies will focus on getting those implants as soon as possible once they find out about them. However, they are relatively expensive for a new player and after they plug in the implants, they don't want to lose them.
For a beginner, those implants represent more than just the gametime they spent to get them. They mined or ran missions for days to get them, and to lose them would not only set them back tens of millions of ISK, it would gimp their character progression. After a new players gets these implants in his head, he becomes extremely risk averse. The idea of being podded is pretty scary to a newbie when he's carrying so much in his head.
After having learned this new behavior, a new pilot is much more likely to avoid going into lowsec or nullsec. This is generally bad for EVE. Aside from the obvious implications this has on new player experiences (they get really bored saving the damsel and killing Kruul and quit), this is not good for the EVE market. PvP is an ISK sink, and ships getting blown up creates demand for new ships.
I'm not saying that getting rid of learning implants is THE solution to getting more hisec bears out of their shells, but it would help new players be less risk-averse. Not everyone likes to PvP, but the way things are now, I don't think newbies are being given a fair chance to try it.
anyone else think there were gonna be learning implants on the NeX if ppl hadnt bitched? Those things look like a pay to win item
Whitehound wrote:It is the entire learning skills debate all over again...
Now people demand to remove attribute implants and soon thereafter they want skill ranks removed, and then they want the training itself removed but buy skills with ISKs.
CCP should never have removed learning skills. It is the fault of the stupid pre-Incarna period of CCP. And why did this all happen? Because we allowed lazy asses and free loaders into the game by selling game time for ISKs and we listen to their demands.
TL;DR: Where is my pizza for ISKs? Logic demands pizza!
wait... what? before PLEX it was gtc or are you including those too?
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
242
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:23:00 -
[144] - Quote
For once I agree with you, Sigurd . |
adopt
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
394
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:25:00 -
[145] - Quote
I think you should all harden up, I lose +3/+4 clones regularly Shadoo > Always remember to fit Cynosural Field Generator I, have 450 Liquid Ozone in your cargo and convo a friendly Pandemic Legion member if you have a capital or super capital ship tackled.
FREE XOLVE ~ THE HERO TEST NEEDS |
Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
242
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:29:00 -
[146] - Quote
adopt wrote:I think you should all harden up, I lose +3/+4 clones regularly
Compelling gameplay to lose training time?
Cool story . |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 15:50:00 -
[147] - Quote
On a related point, CCP Soundwave thinks the system where veterans sometimes pay more for their clone than their ship is a bit out of whack, and could use an adjustment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pLi1J9YrkM&feature=g-user-u 29 minutes in
And we all know what happens when he mentions something off-hand. |
stoicfaux
1012
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:06:00 -
[148] - Quote
Move implants from the LP store to the manufacturing side of the sandbox.
One of the problems with items in the LP store is the artificial price floor. If we remove that price floor, we could potentially see learning implants drop in price to a level low enough that people no longer worry about losing their learning implants.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:07:00 -
[149] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:buy skills with ISKs.
You can already do this through character transfers
|
Whitehound
242
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:15:00 -
[150] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Whitehound wrote:buy skills with ISKs. You can already do this through character transfers No, it only seems that way. You can only buy characters, but you do not have a direct choice on which particular skill you add to a character.
No more crappy expansions!-á-á Raise A Little Hell"20 percent of CCP staff fired." - CEO Hilmar-á-á No more crappy layoffs! |
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4036
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:31:00 -
[151] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:It really is the same whine as before. If CCP Soundwave falls for this crap again will I demand that he gets fired, and I do not care if he is only the messenger for corporate idiocy. He should refuse to stand up for such nonsense.
yeah you totally make that call "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Neemoy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:50:00 -
[152] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:No just don't use them if you don't want too.
I have yet to use +5 in any of my characters I use +3' cause they are cheap and easy to replace.
Saying your not going to PvP because of your implants is just an excuse.
Especially for a high-sec mission runner who will have access to jump clones. Or a 0.0 dweller who will have jump clones.
Getting rid of implants will serve no purpose cause those who don't want to PvP will just find another excuse.
Besides why would you want to reduce your choices in game ?
You are wrong.
Implants is the main cause I don't do more pvp. I've lived in both 0.0 and W-space but I've never gone looking for a fight. I don't mind losing isk, but losing implants means losing training time I can never get back... an I'm pretty anal about my training time.
|
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
620
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:54:00 -
[153] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Alpheias wrote:
Cute straw man. The amount of SP that a character has nothing to do with "combat ability", the experience that a player possess is everything.
I am surprised that someone like you, hiding in a NPC corp even after two years even dares mention risk.
Don't be an idiot. If you think that taking a veteran player with a 100m SP character and making him switch to a 2m SP character wouldn't decrease his combat ability you're delusional. There's probably a point where extra SP stops being effective, sure, and that'd be an argument in favour of capping medclone costs but not much else. Being in an NPC corp is just a case of enjoying the chat, not wanting to join an actual corp, and not being particularly keen on being wardecced. I pick and choose when and where I want to take risks.
I could be wrong here, but I am guessing that combat ability basically is your access to ships and not actual PVP experience? If that is the case, no, that is not what I meant. If you specialize and know how to properly train a character then 10-20m sp would be more than plenty, anything after that is either skill polish or crosstraining.
So what you are saying then is that your character is just an alt, enjoying the risk free life of hi-sec in New Eden with his head full of learning implants. Hypocrite. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
404
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:54:00 -
[154] - Quote
Neemoy wrote: I'm pretty anal about my training time. That is your problem. Not the implants. |
Neemoy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:58:00 -
[155] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Neemoy wrote: I'm pretty anal about my training time. That is your problem. Not the implants.
Oh I am sorry, I thought the prospect of a more lively lowsec was a good thing.
|
March rabbit
Trojan Trolls Red Alliance
169
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:00:00 -
[156] - Quote
learning skills - removed agent quality - removed
now: learning implants - will be removed
next: let's remove skills and ISK totally. After all skills and ISK make access to shiny ships and stuff harder for new players. Why deny PVE/deadspace stuff/PVP for new player just because he is new and poor?
I FULLY SUPPORT OP's IDEA |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:02:00 -
[157] - Quote
Keep learning implants.
I have enough ISK not to care about losing my +5s. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
621
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:02:00 -
[158] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:learning skills - removed agent quality - removed now: learning implants - will be removed next: let's remove skills and ISK totally. After all skills and ISK make access to shiny ships and stuff harder for new players. Why deny PVE/deadspace stuff/PVP for new player just because he is new and poor? I FULLY SUPPORT OP's IDEA
I got a better idea, remove the players. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
405
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:03:00 -
[159] - Quote
Neemoy wrote:Lexmana wrote:Neemoy wrote: I'm pretty anal about my training time. That is your problem. Not the implants. Oh I am sorry, I thought the prospect of a more lively lowsec was a good thing. There are other ways to do that. For example, give every character a buff of +3 to all attributes while in low/null. |
Whitehound
242
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:04:00 -
[160] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Neemoy wrote: I'm pretty anal about my training time. That is your problem. Not the implants. Yeah, do we now listen to players who are anal or what? Wtf!!
First they want others to pay for the gameplay for free, then they want faster learninglearning skills removed, then they want to get out of shipswalk in a station, now they want more faster learningattribute implants removed.
When the hell do they start to pick up the f'cking fight???
No more crappy expansions!-á-á Raise A Little Hell"20 percent of CCP staff fired." - CEO Hilmar-á-á No more crappy layoffs! |
|
adam smash
University of Caille Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:06:00 -
[161] - Quote
Lets remove ALL implants then cause they ALL give a bonus and are ALL hard for noobs.
WHAT ABOUT THE NOOB WHO WANTS A SLAVE SET TO PVP BETTER.
I mean for sure it is not fair that an older player can have one but not the newer player!
Dumbest topic ever. No learning skills was a joke, this is just rofl funny. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4038
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:08:00 -
[162] - Quote
adam smash wrote:Lets remove ALL implants then cause they ALL give a bonus and are ALL hard for noobs.
WHAT ABOUT THE NOOB WHO WANTS A SLAVE SET TO PVP BETTER.
I mean for sure it is not fair that an older player can have one but not the newer player!
Dumbest topic ever. No learning skills was a joke, this is just rofl funny.
slave sets would still exist, just without the learning bonuses "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Camios
Minmatar Bread Corporation
100
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:17:00 -
[163] - Quote
Oh my god. - Pods instawarp and if you keep spamming warp before your ships explodes you will save the egg in highsec and lowsec. - Jump clones can help you. You just need high standing towards an empire faction. Maybe 8 is too high?
Then I would say: harden the **** up. In this game not everyone must get into PVP. But there should be a reward for those who like to venture in dangerous space, feeling the thrill of being raped by an evil pvper. We don't need more people that do PVP just for fun, we need to enlarge the base of the food chain.
Being the base of the food chain can be fun, you can get fun in the process of being blown up (while doing something else). |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:33:00 -
[164] - Quote
I don't see how jump clones helps with learning implants, they seem ****** for a new character wanting to get into eve.
If I have implants in a jump clone then I'm not using them to improve my learning rate, so I take my almost 1.5 mil SP self to 0.0 using my no implant clone so when exactly would I ever use the implant clone??
Only time I could see using it is when I take a break from playing the game aka go on holiday for 2 weeks in the summer? the rest of the time I'd be playing using the clone without implants, might as well never buy implants in that case.
In hindsight all the advise I read saying get implants asap seems to be terrible as it just makes me think sit in 'safer' highsec avoiding risk for x number of weeks/months/years so I can improve as quick as possible. |
Neemoy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:45:00 -
[165] - Quote
Camios wrote:Oh my god. - Pods instawarp and if you keep spamming warp before your ships explodes you will save the egg in highsec and lowsec. - Jump clones can help you. You just need high standing towards an empire faction. Maybe 8 is too high?
Then I would say: harden the **** up. In this game not everyone must get into PVP. But there should be a reward for those who like to venture in dangerous space, feeling the thrill of being raped by an evil pvper. We don't need more people that do PVP just for fun, we need to enlarge the base of the food chain.
Being the base of the food chain can be fun, you can get fun in the process of being blown up (while doing something else).
So why would you pvp if not for fun? |
Irisa Selenia
Capital Consortium Partners
40
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:47:00 -
[166] - Quote
They might as well completely remove attributes. |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
408
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:50:00 -
[167] - Quote
Irisa Selenia wrote:They might as well completely remove attributes.
Or they could: Give all characters a buff of +3 to all attributes while in low/null. |
Whitehound
243
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:55:00 -
[168] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:I don't see how jump clones helps with learning implants, they seem ****** for a new character wanting to get into eve. No. If we went after what players think of EVE during their first month then we need to turn it into WoW.
Learning skills were more arguable, but really only for the weak-minded. You did not have to train them and if you felt you were forced to train them after you have figured out the advantage they will give you then you were a fool. All you had to do was to queue them in the right way to get the advantage early on. You could have easily trained for a ship instead if flying the ship was more important to you. Yet, players complained and CCP listened. What was arguable was the effort you needed to make in order to get the advantage - you had to think about what is more important to you and make a choice. This did not really deserve a reward. In the end was it turned into a faster skill training for all/most plus a reimbursement of the skill points, because it was the only acceptable compromise.
No more crappy expansions!-á-á Raise A Little Hell"20 percent of CCP staff fired." - CEO Hilmar-á-á No more crappy layoffs! |
Dapud
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:03:00 -
[169] - Quote
Camios wrote:Oh my god. - Jump clones can help you. You just need high standing towards an empire faction. Maybe 8 is too high?
Oh my god. - Jump clones have a 24 hour timer. |
Prez21
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:07:00 -
[170] - Quote
Just reading a few pages of this thread just shows how sad some people in this community have become. Yes its hard for new players when they first start but it was the same for everyone else, Ive barely used implants, some people use them all the time but if people are discouraged to pvp cause of implants thats pretty sad.
For 25m and 25k lp you can get a full set of +3s the lower implants dont cost much, people have gone to soft, shall we remove T2 and T3 ships as well because that would set someone back millions of isk so it might scare them off from pvping and we wouldnt want that would we? |
|
Digital Messiah
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
208
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:17:00 -
[171] - Quote
It takes 5.9 days to train up cybernetics 4 at 1800 sp an hour. It costs 40 million to buy a perception and willpower +4 implant which is a little over what you make doing the level 1 epic arc.
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=10216 ^ price proof.
There is no reason that anyone who is serious about EVE cannot spend 5.9 days in training and making 40 million isk to afford this. Attribute implants stay, the idea of removing them is one step closer to ruining the sandbox. "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
CAiNE999
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:32:00 -
[172] - Quote
/support 100%
Learning implants add nothing to the game other than giving more people less reasons to venture out and explore the rest of the sandbox
Tell a full +5 implant pilot safe in highsec to sacrifice 24hrs of his learning clone to go pvp in a frig/cruiser with a empty clone for fun.
Not going to happen. Period.
Anyone with a clue or sense of efficiency will see their only shooting themselves in the foot by dropping those +5s. Money may come fast and easy, but people have little incentive to PvP as it is.
If they don't want to remove learning implants, atleast shorten the CD on JC to 3 hours, or even 1. Still enough time for them to not be abused, and you don't sacrifice an entire day of learning.
Sure theres risk and reward, but thats almost dead in this game regardless. People blob up to stupid odds, refuse to fight, or hide away in station anytime people threaten thier shinies, and will only roll out in superior force. Not for fear of losing a fight, but for losing assets.
Cowardice reigns supreme enough as it is, please remove another reason for people to cling to their clones and go out and enjoy themselves.
PS. And I'm referring only to learning implants, snakes and skill booster implants are still perfectly fine, acceptable risks and not a problem. |
CAiNE999
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:43:00 -
[173] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:It takes 5.9 days to train up cybernetics 4 at 1800 sp an hour. It costs 40 million to buy a perception and willpower +4 implant which is a little over what you make doing the level 1 epic arc. http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=10216^ price proof. There is no reason that anyone who is serious about EVE cannot spend 5.9 days in training and making 40 million isk to afford this. Attribute implants stay, the idea of removing them is one step closer to ruining the sandbox.
Time > Money
Anyone serious about EVE will not get out of their +5s because they are gimping their SP per hour. Therefore they are unlikely to waste 24hrs of +5 implant training to PvP and risk losing, not only a few 100m, but hours/days of their time to lost SP. If they JC, they lose that time regardless, if they PvP in thier +5s, and that is a IF, one extra reason not to chance it.
Learning implants are clinging to a old and partially removed mechanic that does nothing other than delay people's character progresson and make them more cautious. Less likely to explore the sandbox, and less likely to enjoy PvP.
There is enough risk with ship + mods + buying a new clone + hardwirings as it is.
|
Whitehound
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:51:00 -
[174] - Quote
CAiNE999 wrote:/support 100%
Learning implants add nothing to the game other than giving more people less reasons to venture out and explore the rest of the sandbox
Tell a full +5 implant pilot safe in highsec to sacrifice 24hrs of his learning clone to go pvp in a frig/cruiser with a empty clone for fun.
Not going to happen. Period. Remove the attribute implants and they will give you a new excuse. When someone wants to fight for your cause then they will not even mind losing 2b ISK worth of implants if it is a good cause.
Attribute implants are good to keep people honest about their motives. Without them does loss become less meaningful and with it becomes PvP less meaningful.
When you get podded and did not have the ISKs to update your clone then you can actually lose skill points.
No more crappy expansions!-á-á Raise A Little Hell"20 percent of CCP staff fired." - CEO Hilmar-á-á No more crappy layoffs! |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:59:00 -
[175] - Quote
fight for a cause? I don't do causes in life or game. |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:07:00 -
[176] - Quote
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. This whole remove learning implants business is a poorly designed 0.0 whine.
I have NEVER heard anyone cite implants as the reason that they didn't go pvp. Even if you think that it should be less risky to lose implants, you should push for a reduced jumpclone timer or something instead. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
592
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:09:00 -
[177] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:fight for a cause? I don't do causes in life or game. Just Cause 2. Nice game. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:10:00 -
[178] - Quote
no increase jump clone timers not reduce them people shouldn't be able to bounce all over eve at the drop of a hat |
Whitehound
245
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:11:00 -
[179] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:fight for a cause? I don't do causes in life or game. You always do. Every breath you take and every heart beat your body does is a fight against decay. You do it automatically, but without it would your body not get any oxygen in and carbon dioxide out.
Maybe you play EVE to fight boredom, only you will know.
No more crappy expansions!-á-á Raise A Little Hell"20 percent of CCP staff fired." - CEO Hilmar-á-á No more crappy layoffs! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
592
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:16:00 -
[180] - Quote
CAiNE999 wrote:Anyone serious about EVE will not get out of their +5s because they are gimping their SP per hour. Damnit. Guess I'm not serious about eve. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
|
CAiNE999
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:22:00 -
[181] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. This whole remove learning implants business is a poorly designed 0.0 whine.
I have NEVER heard anyone cite implants as the reason that they didn't go pvp. Even if you think that it should be less risky to lose implants, you should push for a reduced jumpclone timer or something instead.
So i expect to see you undock to defend your space with a full set of +5 impants against uncertain odds? Since you want to bring 0.0 up ill run with that.
You have 3 options
1) undock in said +5s and throw caution to the wind. add even more risk into the equation, including the cost of several hours/days of skill training unless you can afford replacements.
2) JC to a empty clone / lesser clone and lose SP/hour, for 24 hours and go fight.
3) Loggoffski/afk, que RL issues and keep your 24 hours of +5 implant learning time
All three are dumb, you should be able to undock and place your ship, mods and clone on the line. to fight for your space, we dont need another veil for people to hide behind. "oh but i cant JC for another 10 hours" being my favorite for said op/defense
I've known plenty of people to pick variants of 3, fake afk, go suddenly quiet, or just disappear. Sure there are other motives, but chancing your tasty implants doesnt help the matter.
But sure, go for 3 hour CD`s on JC. I'd take that equally.
|
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:22:00 -
[182] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:It takes 5.9 days to train up cybernetics 4 at 1800 sp an hour. It costs 40 million to buy a perception and willpower +4 implant which is a little over what you make doing the level 1 epic arc. http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=10216^ price proof. There is no reason that anyone who is serious about EVE cannot spend 5.9 days in training and making 40 million isk to afford this. Attribute implants stay, the idea of removing them is one step closer to ruining the sandbox.
Its not that getting that 40 mill is difficult(although completing the entire arc as a newbie isn't a piece of **** either, everyone seems to need help with Dagan), its that once they have the implants, the risk level of engaging in pvp or exploring low and especially null and wormholes goes WAAAAY up. Then it goes down again a bit once they get jumpclones, but still not as much due to the 24 hour timer.
Same goes for average players in +4s, or veterans in +5s.
|
Dapud
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:30:00 -
[183] - Quote
What if you could buy more expensive clones which had implant insurance.
For instance
Clone Grade Gamma
[ ] Insure Implants?
It would have to be a flat fee otherwise you could game the system obviously... maybe like 5m ISK?
Then when you die you wake up to a clone with the implants already installed. |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 21:51:00 -
[184] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:I don't see how jump clones helps with learning implants, they seem ****** for a new character wanting to get into eve.
If I have implants in a jump clone then I'm not using them to improve my learning rate, so I take my almost 1.5 mil SP self to 0.0 using my no implant clone so when exactly would I ever use the implant clone??
Only time I could see using it is when I take a break from playing the game aka go on holiday for 2 weeks in the summer? the rest of the time I'd be playing using the clone without implants, might as well never buy implants in that case.
In hindsight all the advise I read saying get implants asap seems to be terrible as it just makes me think sit in 'safer' highsec avoiding risk for x number of weeks/months/years so I can improve as quick as possible.
Well, if you're such a risk averse person that the fear of losing your implants will keep you from doing what you want to do, then yes... you should not use implants.
If you come around to it at some point I suggest you create a jump clone at some point and have a +5 learning clone for when you're in empire and a +3 learning clone to combat in. That's a pretty common approach.
|
Demolishar
United Aggression
249
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 22:06:00 -
[185] - Quote
To be fair, you only need two learning implants anyway and 3's and 4's are dirt cheap. 5's are still not much compared to the cost of high-end pvp ships anyway.
|
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 22:10:00 -
[186] - Quote
Are you guys serious!?!? Jump clones being the main reason NOT to go PvP cuz your in a +5 set? Rediculous!! AT BEST!!
Clone 1 +5s Clone 2 Specific +3s (Intel/mem or Percp/Will) Clone 3 Other Specific +3s (Reverse of Clone 2)
Cost of PvP is one jump clone and 15mil MAX and youll still get over 60% of your training time. Thats a T2 fitted T1 cruiser cost to put at "risk".
Hardwirings? HA!! You incursioned with an alt get some cheap 2%s. Make yourself a set of those. Total cost to you?!? A whopping 10mil for 5 hardiwrings.
So thats 25mil MAX your putting at risk for PvP. Cost of a T2 frigate with fittings. If your too poor to afford that out there in the large isk printing null machine then your too poor and stupid to play Eve period. Stop whining HTFU!!
Go spend an hour ratting and youll have your ship and your clone for the next op. Go spend an hour running some anoms or plexs. Go spend an hour in a WH with your buddies. Go run incursions for an hour. Go run L4 missions for an hour. Hell go MINING for an hour. Or just buy plex and sell it on market.
Only people I see whining about this are null bears too CHEAP to buy implants. With all that nullbear isk Im surprised they dont hand OUT implants when you get podded by now like ship replacement funds. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
RedLion
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 22:11:00 -
[187] - Quote
Learning implants and high clone cost gotta go. this will help bring alot of new blood into the pvp scene! |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 22:18:00 -
[188] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote: Well, if you're such a risk averse person
It's not the risk not overly fussed about that but I do have 'issues' regarding trying to maintain the best sp/hour possible.
I'm very ocd about certain things, think I'll save and get myself a character that can do most of what I want to do and that way not worry about the idea of training. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
623
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:58:00 -
[189] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:no increase jump clone timers not reduce them people shouldn't be able to bounce all over eve at the drop of a hat so what do you think my idea then?
jump clone cooldown based on distance jumped? |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 00:14:00 -
[190] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Thomas Kreshant wrote:no increase jump clone timers not reduce them people shouldn't be able to bounce all over eve at the drop of a hat so what do you think my idea then? jump clone cooldown based on distance jumped?
At face value I like it but couldn't it be exploited? ,
@ your home base you jump into cheap clone using that low cool down, set your medical station to your destination and pod kill yourself and then switch to a expensive clone using that low cool down again and you just do the same to return.
You completely bypass timers to jump around almost at will. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
593
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 00:22:00 -
[191] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:MotherMoon wrote:Thomas Kreshant wrote:no increase jump clone timers not reduce them people shouldn't be able to bounce all over eve at the drop of a hat so what do you think my idea then? jump clone cooldown based on distance jumped? At face value I like it but couldn't it be exploited? , @ your home base you jump into cheap clone using that low cool down, set your medical station to your destination and pod kill yourself and then switch to a expensive clone using that low cool down again and you just do the same to return. You completely bypass timers to jump around almost at will. Clever.
Maybe clone relocation contracts should cost based on distance between current and new locations.. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1437
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 01:03:00 -
[192] - Quote
I still think the best solution would be to make pods indestructible save for self--destruct, yet ship-loss causes random implant damage or loss (power surges in the conduits, whatever).
This way, implant loss becomes a way of life for people who lose ships, but it's not a "lose it all" garuntee prospect that contributes to risk aversion.
The truly risk averse, heads full of implants, won't even bother to fly any more, or will run the baddest ships in the lowest missions, but hey some people like slamming their willies in the door too.
|
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
94
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 01:41:00 -
[193] - Quote
Burn the implants!, Burn ALL THE IMPLANTS!! |
Ryshar
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 23:10:00 -
[194] - Quote
I don't think there's anything wrong with the way implants work, or that death shouldn't be scary. I just don't like learning implants, they only exist for your character's skill queues. They don't provide any gameplay advantage, they just let you train a little faster and give you excuses to not try parts of the game.
For new players, this is not a good thing; they're much more likely to stick around if they can try a lot of things up front and find the part of the game that they like. Would it be that bad if everyone just had +3 base stats and these specific implants didn't exist anymore? |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 23:58:00 -
[195] - Quote
I saw a thread recently related to this, but with a different twist
Remove attribute implants, but leave the slots. Now those slots could be used to cross fit the hardwire implants into these slots.
Basically 1 and 6 would share the same hardwire implants 2 and 7 3 and 8 4 and 9 5 and 10
The only limitations is that you would not be allowed to fit 2 implants effecting the same attributes.
So no duel 5% heavy missile implants on 2 and 7, but you could fit one with a missile buff and the other with a shield buff or something like this.
There are several of available implants for the 6-10 slots, so there would be no need to create new implants for these slots.
This would allow players to still have the risk vs reward that they care so much about, but all the reward would be directly related to the ships you fly.
This would also allow players to cross fit, meaning they could fit some modules related to mining and combat.
As far as pirate implants, they could be redesigned. They would still only be able to fit in slots 1-5. However, now, they would give you a 1-2% bonus to a hardwire, and +1 to attributes. This would probably help to make pirate implants much more popular.
They would still have the restriction of not being able to fit a module effecting the same stats that they do.
Perhaps the amount of attribute bonus they receive would need to be thought out more than what I suggest, but regardless, if they gave the +1 attribute on top of having the +5 attributes you would now be getting standard, they would become much more wanted.
However, there are many players in Eve who have no problem going without hardwire implants in order to pvp, but are much less likely to give up their attribute implants in order to pvp because attribute implants feel more like a MUST in Eve rather than the perk CCP originally meant for them to be. |
Serith Isagar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:30:00 -
[196] - Quote
As a newbie I can totally agree that learning implants should be removed. Especially for newbies who want to PVP, learning implants are a big factor in favor of not playing until a character is trained up more. The cost of these implants is way too high to be risked by a newbie trying to learn PVP or joining RVB. I can't see where learning implants actually add anything to the game, all they really accomplish is getting in the way of players taking risks - PVP is expensive enough to begin with that it doesn't need another "cost" added in.
I don't really see going without learning implants as much of an option for newbies either given the long training times once you set your aims beyond being a "tackler in a frigate". |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 05:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Okay so in ALL the other threads its all about MOAR RISK!!!! NOT ENOUGH RISK!!!! RISKLESS!!! So now that you HAVE risk due to getting podded with implants in and having a REAL loss you suddenly want it changed to LESS risk?!?!
Nullbear whine!! Either you want MOAR risk or you want LESS risk. Pick one. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
55
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:11:00 -
[198] - Quote
Serith Isagar wrote:As a newbie I can totally agree that learning implants should be removed. Especially for newbies who want to PVP, learning implants are a big factor in favor of not playing until a character is trained up more. The cost of these implants is way too high to be risked by a newbie trying to learn PVP or joining RVB. I can't see where learning implants actually add anything to the game, all they really accomplish is getting in the way of players taking risks - PVP is expensive enough to begin with that it doesn't need another "cost" added in.
I don't really see going without learning implants as much of an option for newbies either given the long training times once you set your aims beyond being a "tackler in a frigate".
unless you are gtc tp plex sales funding the isk.....chances are real good you have a nice cycle of ratting/missioning nights mixed with pvp nights. Get clean jump clone, run this on pvp nights. Go back in the +x implant clone on pve nights.
System works like a charm. I did this when I went to 0.0 2-3 months into the game on the combat char. OPs and roams picked up oin weekends, friday night I logged in, jumped on clean clone and killed or be killed till sunday. Monday hop back into the good clone, and try to not get blown up Mon-thurs. If that happened....didn't want those implants anyway.
Pvp is something learned by doing. 2 nights of good quality and hopefully fun pvp in a clean clone will do you better in the long than having that extra skill level 2 days faster. My empire break has lasted long than planned....many ships skillwise I am damn good. Recon 5...got it. Minutes flown in recons, 0. I have no delusions about my actual ability to fly them.
get your flight time in what you can. Skill level 5 fixes many things, don't fix inexperence flying ships or being an idiot (I put myself in the idiot category with some wtf I am terribad loses recently). Actaully flying your ships, learning from f ups (yours or others) does however. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 15:10:00 -
[199] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:PvP is an ISK sink, and ships getting blown up creates demand for new ships.
FYI, this is wrong, PvP is an ISK faucet anytime someone gets even the basic insurance payout.
Its a resource/mineral/ship/module sink, and reduces supply of ships/creates more demand, which drives the ISK price up. ISK faucets also drive the ISK prices up (more ISK, same supply)
To combat inflation, you want ISK sinks and resource/mineral/ship/module faucets (such as lvl 4's being a modules/mineral faucet)
PvP helps drive inflation. If ships almsot never got drestroyed, there would be a bunch of them, massive surpluses of ships, prices would be low due to no demand (unless people just wants to stock up 100 of each ship for the heck of it), there'd be almost 0 point to the mining and manufacturing profession (maybe ice mining for running POS's and jump fuel, POS's for making T2 ammo and bases of operation for doing PvE, such as WH), everyone would fly T3s or pirate faction ships, with officer/deadspace/faction fits
It would also be pretty boring. Even if you don't engage in PvP, knowing there are people out there that may engage you regardless, adds atmosphere to the game. |
Quade Warren
Urban Mining Corp Rising Phoenix Alliance
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:10:00 -
[200] - Quote
Not sure if this has been posted or not, but didn't want to read 10 pages.
Make the learning attributes a natural function of cloning technology. The higher the quality the clone, but the better the attribute enhancement and the more expensive the clone is.
Keep the slots for the different sets, just remove the attribute bonus.
You maintain your SP learned no matter what you're doing, there is still an isk sink and you still have the opportunity to use that expensive Slave set.
Any thoughts? |
|
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
219
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:30:00 -
[201] - Quote
I dont know which newbies you are talking about but as I started with eve, I was always aware of the risk and cost loosing the pod and I didnt really cared much about skilling at max speed so never bothered to plug better than +3 imps - long time is long, so didnt matter if its a bit longer then long to get into one particular ship type.
Its not that the main purpose of playing eve is skilling, its having fun with ships you already are ready for. One day that long skill will be done. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:33:00 -
[202] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Okay so in ALL the other threads its all about MOAR RISK!!!! NOT ENOUGH RISK!!!! RISKLESS!!! So now that you HAVE risk due to getting podded with implants in and having a REAL loss you suddenly want it changed to LESS risk?!?! Nullbear whine!! Either you want MOAR risk or you want LESS risk. Pick one.
In order to have more people joining in on the fun of pvp some risks need to be removed.
When it comes to the fear of being podded, this is always due to attribute implants. When I've pvp'd with my implanted clone I have never once worried about the amount of money in my head, but rather the amount of training I would lose in the event of a podding.
If we wish to make pvp a bit more popular then we have to do something to take away some risks.
I feel that attribute implants is the perfect place to look.
Those noobs and even those older players might actually be willing to come out a play at least in a frig. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:59:00 -
[203] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:I dont know which newbies you are talking about but as I started with eve, I was always aware of the risk and cost loosing the pod and I didnt really cared much about skilling at max speed so never bothered to plug better than +3 imps - long time is long, so didnt matter if its a bit longer then long to get into one particular ship type.
Its not that the main purpose of playing eve is skilling, its having fun with ships you already are ready for. One day that long skill will be done.
I hate having to agree with Robert, as he is usually posting like an asshat. however this time i have to agree that if it more about obsessively doing something one way (max all the time) then the other activities that you wish to participate in may not be for you when almost everything in the game is designed expressly with tradeoffs. that includes implants.
If that is getting in the way of how you play the game, take some time to reassess how it is exactly that you are playing the game. is it to have fun? is it to train as fast as possible? is it to fly dangerously?
what are you doing and does it fit with the other types of game play that you are doing? there are only so many things you can do at once. and the tradeoffs and choices that you make are part of the game. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:52:00 -
[204] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:I dont know which newbies you are talking about but as I started with eve, I was always aware of the risk and cost loosing the pod and I didnt really cared much about skilling at max speed so never bothered to plug better than +3 imps - long time is long, so didnt matter if its a bit longer then long to get into one particular ship type.
Its not that the main purpose of playing eve is skilling, its having fun with ships you already are ready for. One day that long skill will be done. I hate having to agree with Robert, as he is usually posting like an asshat. however this time i have to agree that if it more about obsessively doing something one way (max all the time) then the other activities that you wish to participate in may not be for you when almost everything in the game is designed expressly with tradeoffs. that includes implants. If that is getting in the way of how you play the game, take some time to reassess how it is exactly that you are playing the game. is it to have fun? is it to train as fast as possible? is it to fly dangerously? what are you doing and does it fit with the other types of game play that you are doing? there are only so many things you can do at once. and the tradeoffs and choices that you make are part of the game.
A lot of players feel that in training faster you're not only making yourself valuable sooner in order to join or be more efficient for your corp, but you're also getting deeper into the game so that you are able to enjoy it more.
Look at it this way. As a noob you have nothing going for you. You suck at everything and what you are able to do takes so long and is so inefficient that it's a bit diffult to actually enjoy, hence why so many player quit before they get deep into the game.
Now, the players that do stick it out and are able to somewhat enjoy that low edge of the game are focused on trying to get somewhere faster so that they can enjoy the game more and have money to waist on ships getting blown up.
For most noobs their main focus is going to be getting into something where you can have the highest possible profit margin in the fastest amount of time and with the least amount of training so that you can press out the isk to be able to afford those attribute implants which will be used to train towards combat focus at a much faster rate.
In order to get to this point the fastest isk earning aspect of Eve to train for where you'll have the highest potential profit margin in the shortest amount of training is going to be mining. However, if noobs had +5 from the begining and didn't have to worry about getting those implants for faster training, thus then having to worry about losing those implants, then not only would they be able to train more focused on combat from the start, but players who know Eve and dish out advice will no longer suggest mining as the quickest way to get into Eve and make isk, but will be expressing to noobs the different ways of making isk and the different paths to train for such as amarr, or caldari, or mining, leaving more room for the players to actually start enjoying which ever aspect of the game they would prefer instead of feeling like they're being forced into mining in order to get to anything else. |
Serith Isagar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 00:29:00 -
[205] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:I dont know which newbies you are talking about but as I started with eve, I was always aware of the risk and cost loosing the pod and I didnt really cared much about skilling at max speed so never bothered to plug better than +3 imps - long time is long, so didnt matter if its a bit longer then long to get into one particular ship type.
Its not that the main purpose of playing eve is skilling, its having fun with ships you already are ready for. One day that long skill will be done.
Newbies can't do much of anything in standard PVP other then be a tackler frigate. IMO unless you happen to enjoy that sort of game play there isn't much to do aside from skill up. With learning implants, if you stop to enjoy something like RvB frigate nights and get podded, for me that's lengthening the amount of time spent in a ship type I have no real interest in. The same argument applies to faction warfare when those tweaks come in.
Jump clones aren't much help when getting them is such a long standings grind with level 1 and 2 missions. From what I've been told things go quite a bit faster with level 3 and 4 missions. But higher level missions also require better ships so again there's large incentive to "wait until you train up skills". Money making....IMO same argument, larger ships are so much more effective here then newbie frigates you may as well wait and train.
Personally I'm into DPS roles and going for battle cruisers. With the high cost of learning implants, taking the risk of being podded to PVP in a ship type I don't have much liking for doesn't make sense. I'd be jumping in to do more frigate vs frigate level PVP if I didn't have to worry about slowing down progress towards my real goal by losing learning implants. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 01:12:00 -
[206] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Okay so in ALL the other threads its all about MOAR RISK!!!! NOT ENOUGH RISK!!!! RISKLESS!!! So now that you HAVE risk due to getting podded with implants in and having a REAL loss you suddenly want it changed to LESS risk?!?! Nullbear whine!! Either you want MOAR risk or you want LESS risk. Pick one. In order to have more people joining in on the fun of pvp some risks need to be removed. When it comes to the fear of being podded, this is always due to attribute implants. When I've pvp'd with my implanted clone I have never once worried about the amount of money in my head, but rather the amount of training I would lose in the event of a podding. If we wish to make pvp a bit more popular then we have to do something to take away some risks. I feel that attribute implants is the perfect place to look. Those noobs and even those older players might actually be willing to come out a play at least in a frig. No you dont and you wont by taking away the major reason that null bears are whining in this thread to try to get implants changed. Those who DONT PvP wont even if you remove the implants and then of course the ONLY people that will benefit are the null secers that get podded frequently. Again your arguing to cater to the null bear whine....as per usual in this game.
You think that dramatically by changing the game to suit you your going to push your pseudo BS line about how its beneficial for the noob which it isnt. A noob is still pathetically challenged in ANY PvP situation just because hes a noob. Implants are NOT a major factor. I see the skill point barriers that many corps and alliances impose as being more of a factor than anything in their heads. Or the fact that instant gratification and I wants it now mentality of the majority of people is to blame. Eve is a game of months and years not minutes or days. Training skill times dictate that, nothing else. Either you wait and learn or you dont.
Noone when they get into this game wants to lose. I remember getting WTFPWNed by m0o in mara in my lil condor way back in the day. They were older, better and better trained I was a noob and therefore I sucked. There was nothing I could do. That is Eve, it is cold, brutal, dark and harsh. Its why Im still here I love that environment. By taking that away your removing the risk that having implants IS for the game. You want something faster? RISK something!! You want your cake and to eat it to. Thats horse **** plain and simple.
You want to PvP and say that by removing YOUR risk youll make it better for ALL the lil nooblets coming into the game cuz its SOO expensive. Teach them! Educate them ALL! Make it mandatory to have jump clones and to USE them. 24 hours isnt a huge amount of time to spend in a dif clone and its certainly not a huge learning loss. Now for those of you that do nothign but PvP and are whining here.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You get NO sympathy. Youll go WTFPWN some mack or hulk in a belt and laugh at their tears easy enough but YOU lose your precious training time? WHIIIIIIINE!!!
You all got more whine than a vineyard!! Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Ryshar
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 01:39:00 -
[207] - Quote
You (the reader) are better than a new person. That's pretty much a given unless you are truly terrible. Please keep in mind that this change benefits new pilots the most. Every reply I've seen about there needing to be more risk FOR NEW PILOTS has either completely forgotten what it's like to be new or is just bitter. Why on earth is it a bad thing to make it slightly easier for new players to get into the game? Why would you expect them to know all about jump clones or how everything they want to do even works? Unless they have friends or very quickly fell into a corp that was exceptionally helpful, they won't even know what questions to ask to find out about this stuff.
Most new pilots learn by doing and EVE should make it easier for new players to do things. This doesn't mean they should get into capitals in a week, it means they should be able to risk less to see more. Removing learning implants is a great way to do that.
I was sorely tempted to just underline every use of the phrase "new pilot," because it really seems that most of the people replying against it are somehow missing that when they read these posts. |
Eli Green
The Arrow Project CORE.
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:00:00 -
[208] - Quote
Ryshar wrote:You (the reader) are better than a new person. That's pretty much a given unless you are truly terrible. Please keep in mind that this change benefits new pilots the most. Every reply I've seen about there needing to be more risk FOR NEW PILOTS has either completely forgotten what it's like to be new or is just bitter. Why on earth is it a bad thing to make it slightly easier for new players to get into the game? Why would you expect them to know all about jump clones or how everything they want to do even works? Unless they have friends or very quickly fell into a corp that was exceptionally helpful, they won't even know what questions to ask to find out about this stuff.
Most new pilots learn by doing and EVE should make it easier for new players to do things. This doesn't mean they should get into capitals in a week, it means they should be able to risk less to see more. Removing learning implants is a great way to do that.
I was sorely tempted to just underline every use of the phrase "new pilot," because it really seems that most of the people replying against it are somehow missing that when they read these posts.
If only there was a place in EVE, an expanse of space, fit for learning all the ups and downs of life in New Eden. A magical place where new players could learn in a low risk environment, protected by an elite police force to help prevent a bad experience, and at the very least avenge the criminals that still manage to destroy your things.
Oh wait it's called hisec. Where i spent my first 6 months and if I recall (not hard since i've only been playing for 9 months) is this safe, low risk learning environment for new players that you sujest. Cool thing about hisec is that unless your a) in your pod or b) a war target, chances of losing your pod are extremely slim, and learning implants are great for young characters when taking hours off of training times is really important. Furthermore there's plenty of places to learn pvp in hisec (Euni for example). So keep learning implants unless there is a plan to remove hisec. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:02:00 -
[209] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: No you dont and you wont by taking away the major reason that null bears are whining in this thread to try to get implants changed. Those who DONT PvP wont even if you remove the implants and then of course the ONLY people that will benefit are the null secers that get podded frequently. Again your arguing to cater to the null bear whine....as per usual in this game.
You think that dramatically by changing the game to suit you your going to push your pseudo BS line about how its beneficial for the noob which it isnt. A noob is still pathetically challenged in ANY PvP situation just because hes a noob. Implants are NOT a major factor. I see the skill point barriers that many corps and alliances impose as being more of a factor than anything in their heads. Or the fact that instant gratification and I wants it now mentality of the majority of people is to blame. Eve is a game of months and years not minutes or days. Training skill times dictate that, nothing else. Either you wait and learn or you dont.
Noone when they get into this game wants to lose. I remember getting WTFPWNed by m0o in mara in my lil condor way back in the day. They were older, better and better trained I was a noob and therefore I sucked. There was nothing I could do. That is Eve, it is cold, brutal, dark and harsh. Its why Im still here I love that environment. By taking that away your removing the risk that having implants IS for the game. You want something faster? RISK something!! You want your cake and to eat it to. Thats horse **** plain and simple.
You want to PvP and say that by removing YOUR risk youll make it better for ALL the lil nooblets coming into the game cuz its SOO expensive. Teach them! Educate them ALL! Make it mandatory to have jump clones and to USE them. 24 hours isnt a huge amount of time to spend in a dif clone and its certainly not a huge learning loss. Now for those of you that do nothign but PvP and are whining here.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You get NO sympathy. Youll go WTFPWN some mack or hulk in a belt and laugh at their tears easy enough but YOU lose your precious training time? WHIIIIIIINE!!!
You all got more whine than a vineyard!!
I am a high sec carebear. I am in no way trying to put less risks in null sec. I do, however, feel that those in null are FORCED to risk more or are PUNISHED for not risking more by having slower training times. I say forced and punished because just about everyone in eve, expecially those with low SP, feel that attribute implants are manditory. Now, the fact that just about everyone in Eve feels that attribute implants ar manditory, then noobs coming into Eve are essentially being punished for being noobs. Eve is already quite a bit noob negative. The difference between no implants and +5 implants is over one month of sp in a year, which is quite significant. This noob disadvantage in Eve is the reason why CCP gave them faster training times during the first month or so of time in game.
The other thing that people fail to notice is since the implementation of the PLEX program, players that are wealthy outside of game are essentially able to buy SP because they can afford those implants at all times.
I have no problem with them being able to buy a head full of 5% hardwire implants though because it doesn't make them a better player or mean they know how to fight or fit a ship.
With the way Eve is, if you haven't established yourself with good skills already, then attribute implants are a MUST, which punishes those who risk their pods, and punishes those who have yet to build themselves up enough as a character to even remotely begin to be able to afford them. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:21:00 -
[210] - Quote
Eli Green wrote: If only there was a place in EVE, an expanse of space, fit for learning all the ups and downs of life in New Eden. A magical place where new players could learn in a low risk environment, protected by an elite police force to help prevent a bad experience, and at the very least avenge the criminals that still manage to destroy your things.
You seem to have this thought in your head that high sec is actually safe. Sure, the odds of losing a pod outside of a wardec are quite slim, however, through things like hulkageddon (which now involves pretty much any ship being used for industrial purposes), burn jita, gallente ice capades and the everyday anti care bearing movement that seems to be going on, noobs are at much higher risk of being ganked because they don't have the skills, knowledge, or isk to be able to counter ganking. So, every time they start building up isk to get those attribute implants, they get ganked and instead have to spend that isk on a new ship.
Quote:Oh wait it's called hisec. Where i spent my first 6 months and if I recall (not hard since i've only been playing for 9 months) is this safe, low risk learning environment for new players that you sujest. Cool thing about hisec is that unless your a) in your pod or b) a war target, chances of losing your pod are extremely slim, and learning implants are great for young characters when taking hours off of training times is really important. Furthermore there's plenty of places to learn pvp in hisec (Euni for example). So keep learning implants unless there is a plan to remove hisec.
Apparently you either a) have a wealthy pocket book out of game b) have some very generous friends c) Bought a caracter in some way d) you're not a noob, this is just your newest character to which you wish to try and pull the wool over our eyes with
(least likely)e) you have such a firm understanding of Eve that you were able to make the isk for +5 implants in no time
(most likely)f) you macro mined your @ss off to get those implants really quickly
I say this because those of us that ACTUALLY remember being a noob also remember that we probably didn't make enough in the first year to buy 600mil worth of implants considering all the money we had to spend on better ships just to be able to be more profitable.
So, you're either lieing about being a noob and have been playing long enough to forget that you don't make crap for isk as a noob, or you have used one of the other suggested methods I listed in order to quickly earn isk.
I'm pretty sure that the average noob will not have enough isk in 9 months to afford +5 attribute implants. Hell, most noobs will be lucky to still be flying a hulk 9 months into gameplay because odds are they'll have already been ganked by then, if they've even been able to afford a hulk by then.
I don't know how, but you seem to have this thought in your head that noobs can afford implants on their own as soon as they come into the game. Dude, most noobs don't even know about attribute implants till a good while after they've been playing. |
|
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
219
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 07:40:00 -
[211] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: A lot of players feel that in training faster you're not only making yourself valuable sooner in order to join or be more efficient for your corp, but you're also getting deeper into the game so that you are able to enjoy it more.
for your corp an experienced scout or tackler with 7m SP is 83292389243 times more valuable than a f*cking noob with 7.2m SP sitting in station all the time and being afraid of loosing his +4 implants.
Serith Isagar wrote: Newbies can't do much of anything in standard PVP other then be a tackler frigate. IMO unless you happen to enjoy that sort of game play there isn't much to do aside from skill up. With learning implants, if you stop to enjoy something like RvB frigate nights and get podded, for me that's lengthening the amount of time spent in a ship type I have no real interest in. The same argument applies to faction warfare when those tweaks come in.
always fly only what you can afford to loose. This wisdom applies to implants too. The sooner you accept the fact that you cant afford everything in eve as beginner, the better it will turn out for your carreer. |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
114
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 09:48:00 -
[212] - Quote
Sid Hudgens wrote:ConranAntoni wrote:
Pro retort ******.
EvE is a sandbox, and risk is a factor to all actions in the game, removing this removes a risk for pilots who are either A to stupid to keep their pod alive in high or lowsec or B think jamming +5s into your head then dicksmashing into a bubbled gate in null is a good idea.
Oh, and to reinforce what god knows how many people have pointed out previously; Jump Clones, I know their hard to get hold of, I mean its not like theres actual corps specificly set up to allow people to join to set up jump clones or anything like Jump Frog, so I clearly understand why we should all hold hands and circlejerk into empty clones instantly on day one and make absolutely zero effort to get to grips with risk/reward management of pvp or understanding that the things you want require *effort* such as grinding standings or joining somewhere that already has them.
Tl;dr losing your first pod is always a lesson in how not to be stupid. Remove the risk of losing your shiney bits in your skull and you remove the true danger of podding. You want HG slaves or +5s and you earn and lose them, you learn that things are finite and not to be ******** in how you approach EvE.
A swing and a miss. But hey, you keep at it, pumpkin. If all of you hardcore eve pros try thinking about it really hard maybe you'll be able to grasp the point the OP, or myself or (according to an earlier post) even mittens is making about new players. (Good lord do I actually agree with mittens on something? I suddenly feel I need a shower.)
Oh we get your point we just give a **** about it. Implants are fine and if you can't afford them well thats just too damn bad. Looks like you get to train slower, a well deserved fate for the mentally inferior. |
Dahren Caspo
Repo.
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 10:46:00 -
[213] - Quote
I recently started training an alt and the first thing I did was train Cybernetics to 4 and buy a set of +4 implants to increase the learning speed of everything else.
It's like the old learning skills all over again.
I'm in full support of removing them. |
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 11:07:00 -
[214] - Quote
Geoscape wrote:"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"
Get rid of learning implants.
Using exactly the same quote, I would say "reduce the timer" :P |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
220
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 11:11:00 -
[215] - Quote
Dahren Caspo wrote:I recently started training an alt and the first thing I did was train Cybernetics to 4 and buy a set of +4 implants to increase the learning speed of everything else.
It's like the old learning skills all over again.
I'm in full support of removing them.
you know, you arent needed to do that if you dont like. Just leave them away, exactly as it would be as if they removed them from the game. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 15:12:00 -
[216] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Dahren Caspo wrote:I recently started training an alt and the first thing I did was train Cybernetics to 4 and buy a set of +4 implants to increase the learning speed of everything else.
It's like the old learning skills all over again.
I'm in full support of removing them. you know, you arent needed to do that if you dont like. Just leave them away, exactly as it would be as if they removed them from the game.
Apparently you didn't read much of the thread. WE established that the +5 would be placed on the players without the need of an implant.
Now, as far as not needing them...Are you mentally handicapped? Like i've already stated, the differents between implants and no implants is over a month out of a year worth of SP. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
221
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 15:20:00 -
[217] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: Now, as far as not needing them...Are you mentally handicapped? Like i've already stated, the differents between implants and no implants is over a month out of a year worth of SP.
you are fu*king rtarded dude, just because they giving you advantage, does not mean you NEED them for playing. They are still optional, if you can afford loosing them in the worst case. Its the same as requesting Nightmares for everyone, just because they are better ships compared to armageddons, what th f*ck are you smoking? Those expensive things have an essential drawback, they are EXPENSIVE, so if you lose them you, well, experience more loss as if you wouldnt use them and thats for a good reason, to hold rich people apart from the poor people. If you want nice things in game you should put more efforts into it. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 16:11:00 -
[218] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: Now, as far as not needing them...Are you mentally handicapped? Like i've already stated, the differents between implants and no implants is over a month out of a year worth of SP.
you are fu*king rtarded dude, just because they giving you advantage, does not mean you NEED them for playing. They are still optional, if you can afford loosing them in the worst case. Its the same as requesting Nightmares for everyone, just because they are better ships compared to armageddons, what th f*ck are you smoking? Those expensive things have an essential drawback, they are EXPENSIVE, so if you lose them you, well, experience more loss as if you wouldnt use them and thats for a good reason, to hold rich people apart from the poor people. If you want nice things in game you should put more efforts into it.
Except with attribute implants you're essentially allowing those with wealthy pocket books out of game to essentially buy SP. Last time I checked most players were against buy SP.
Now, as far as expensive and more loss crap. This is a statement meant only for the players who risk their pods. Most players in high sec rarely risk their pods even during a corp war, so you're basically punishing those who risk their pods with either lower training times, or higher risks.
Removing attribute implants means a more balanced risk vs reward system so that no one has to worry about training times because we'd all be the same. |
Pelador Rova
Paladin Philanthropists Blue Nation
63
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 17:45:00 -
[219] - Quote
If it hasnt been mentioned then important to remember that implants provide a significant isk sink to the game, thus removing implants without finding a new or balancing alternative sinks to compensate coul dcasue an inflationary spike.
An alternative to the impact podding has on implant loss and how thi seffects the psychology of pilots would be to apply scaled insurance to implants similarly to how ships are insured. These can be weighted so as not to gain profit from the exercise by making the payback lower than the LP associated costs for them, which are static at present.
Considering that the risk adversive wont likley use this servce they arent the ones who would beneift from the service, and would be the ones to take a hit when they do end up being podded. The more habitual PvP player however would be gratefull however from having an insurance component for their implants however and would be more likley to use the service. CCP would likley know the tipping points to make it a reality economically, but also provides an additinal isk sink source with extra insurance being paid to NPCs yet the payout providing a less return overall to players in order to at least compensate for the penalties of impant loss. As such it would be more of an applicable benefit to PvP players. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 18:28:00 -
[220] - Quote
Pelador Rova wrote:If it hasnt been mentioned then important to remember that implants provide a significant isk sink to the game, thus removing implants without finding a new or balancing alternative sinks to compensate coul dcasue an inflationary spike.
The best suggestion I've heard to counter this is to keep the implant slots and allow the hardwire implants to be cross fitted into these slots, so...
1 and 6 share implants 2-7 3-8 4-9 5-10
However, the limitations on this would be that you can't fit 2 implants effecting the same skill in the coordinating slots.
This would be useful in several ways.
Those who wish to apply more risk will get more combat effectiveness Those who wish to use a single clone for several tasks, such as mining and missioning would be able to. They could cross fit for pvp and pve. It helps those who fly several different class ships at different times.
This would also allow for a much more broad market when it comes to hardwire implants because i'm sure there are some out there that while being helpful implants aren't used because there is something much more direct available, such as slot 6 having both a cpu implant and a torpedo implant that could both be very helpful to a stealth bomber pilot, and if he's willing to risk those implants then he'll receive more bonuses effecting combat capability. |
|
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
114
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:02:00 -
[221] - Quote
This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:08:00 -
[222] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:We should also get rid of T2 ships as it makes fewer people want to pvp in them U mad bro?
- Tech 2 ships are easy to leave and board onto a different ship. A little bit different with implants.
- They also increase effectiveness, unlike attribute enhancers which only improve learning and work even if you just sit around.
- Hell, we should remove all ships, then no one will want to PvP with them.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
429
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:56:00 -
[223] - Quote
CAiNE999 wrote:Time > Money
Anyone serious about EVE will not get out of their +5s because they are gimping their SP per hour.
lol wut?
|
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
222
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:42:00 -
[224] - Quote
yeah, because if you dont skill fast, you simply suck at eve. This is obvious, no? |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:08:00 -
[225] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:yeah, because if you dont skill fast, you simply suck at eve. This is obvious, no?
Yes, because the first thing ANYONE will tell you about Eve is to get attribute implants to speed up your training, and basically state that they're manditory.
Don't deny it. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
228
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 03:49:00 -
[226] - Quote
Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
209
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 04:18:00 -
[227] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. Empire PVP doesn't count for risking implants, especially not highsec where you do yours. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
222
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 07:46:00 -
[228] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too.
the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others? |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
114
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 11:22:00 -
[229] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. Empire PVP doesn't count for risking implants, especially not highsec where you do yours.
Because we never pod people in high sec right douchebag? Get over yourself son, nullsec is no more challenging than low or high. It's merely sovereignty claimable space. Thats it. Nothing more. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 12:32:00 -
[230] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others?
Already fixed with the removal of racial attribute bonuses, and the addition of the two free remaps for new players, plus the yearly remap. Sure it rewards specialisation over generalised characters, but hey, Eve is all about alts anyway.
|
|
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
229
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:14:00 -
[231] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others? Already fixed with the removal of racial attribute bonuses, and the addition of the two free remaps for new players, plus the yearly remap. Sure it rewards specialisation over generalised characters, but hey, Eve is all about alts anyway.
This. UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 14:35:00 -
[232] - Quote
Risk vs reward is a 2 way street, I use +5's anytime I'm not in a pvp clone , its still a risk, the odds are just slightly better when you are missioning, mining (very slightly) or playing the market than when you are actively seeking a fight. Some people will not ever actively seek a fight and you want to nerf them because their reward is faster training time among other things. Your reward is the pvp which I assume you want, your awesome epeen of being some null-sec alliances pet dog, million isk bounties on rats and exotic modules not available in High-sec. I'd add exotic ores and moon goo to that but lets face it that stuff goes to your masters. You can add faster training time to your rewards if you want, I always hear you people talking about risk vs reward, if the reward is worth it to you wear the f@%&ing implants. You made your choice they made theirs, live with it. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
222
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 15:23:00 -
[233] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:Takseen wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others? Already fixed with the removal of racial attribute bonuses, and the addition of the two free remaps for new players, plus the yearly remap. Sure it rewards specialisation over generalised characters, but hey, Eve is all about alts anyway. This.
this what? this is sh*t. I was not about racial differences.
Implants are fine. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
728
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:30:00 -
[234] - Quote
OP... there are players that have had +5s since 2003. If anything we will see stronger implants so newer players can catch up. What's done is done. You're going in the opposite direction of what must be done, and what CCP is doing already. gl w/ that
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:38:00 -
[235] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Risk vs reward is a 2 way street, I use +5's anytime I'm not in a pvp clone , its still a risk, the odds are just slightly better when you are missioning, mining (very slightly) or playing the market than when you are actively seeking a fight. Some people will not ever actively seek a fight and you want to nerf them because their reward is faster training time among other things. Your reward is the pvp which I assume you want, your awesome epeen of being some null-sec alliances pet dog, million isk bounties on rats and exotic modules not available in High-sec. I'd add exotic ores and moon goo to that but lets face it that stuff goes to your masters. You can add faster training time to your rewards if you want, I always hear you people talking about risk vs reward, if the reward is worth it to you wear the f@%&ing implants. You made your choice they made theirs, live with it. Just gotta repost this.
QFT!! Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:06:00 -
[236] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Takseen wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Agree with OP. Removing learning skills was a half job, finish it off by removing skill implants too. the next step will be what? Removing attributes, because its unfair some people skill faster than others? Already fixed with the removal of racial attribute bonuses, and the addition of the two free remaps for new players, plus the yearly remap. Sure it rewards specialisation over generalised characters, but hey, Eve is all about alts anyway. This. this what? this is sh*t. I was not about racial differences. Implants are fine.
There were only three things that affected attributes. 1) Starting race. Gone, now everyone starts the same and you can remap to change your attributes to suit, but everyone has the same potential. 2) Learning skills, gone completely. 3) Implants, still here.
So yes, I suppose in a way removing learning implants would make everyone equal in potential, just with different skill focuses. I just don't like them because they're yet one more reason for people to act ultra cautious in-game and not commit to fights they're not sure they'll win, and to put off going to dangerous regions until they're "finished" their perfect skill-plan. I just hope CCP takes a note of it whenever the "how to get more people into pvp" discussion comes up/
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
212
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:05:00 -
[237] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. Empire PVP doesn't count for risking implants, especially not highsec where you do yours. Because we never pod people in high sec right? Get over yourself son, nullsec is no more challenging than low or high. It's merely sovereignty claimable space. Thats it. Nothing more. Can you use interdiction in highsec? How about lowsec? No? That's entirely my point. There's almost zero risk to your pod in empire PVP unless you're a dumbass or just really, really unlucky. The rest of your post was exceedingly irrelevant. I'm not claiming anything about my playing style being superior to yours. I'm stating that there is, inherently, far greater risk to my pods than there is to yours. You can warp out, 100% of the time, as soon as your ship is destroyed. I don't always have that option. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:49:00 -
[238] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:This thread is created by poor have me nots demanding equality. It promotes "all equal" philosphy in a game designed to do the opposite. I use +5s I can afford them, I pvp in them and they are just fine. If you can't you suck, you fail and no one cares.
You have no right to less risk, equality beyond rules we play by or any other nonsense.
This change equates to the fail often thrust upon games of risk, the lessening of it. Empire PVP doesn't count for risking implants, especially not highsec where you do yours. Because we never pod people in high sec right? Get over yourself son, nullsec is no more challenging than low or high. It's merely sovereignty claimable space. Thats it. Nothing more. Can you use interdiction in highsec? How about lowsec? No? That's entirely my point. There's almost zero risk to your pod in empire PVP unless you're a dumbass or just really, really unlucky. The rest of your post was exceedingly irrelevant. I'm not claiming anything about my playing style being superior to yours. I'm stating that there is, inherently, far greater risk to my pods than there is to yours. You can warp out, 100% of the time, as soon as your ship is destroyed. I don't always have that option.
Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way.
You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous.
HTFU Nullbear. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
247
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:14:00 -
[239] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way. You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous. HTFU Nullbear.
I'm a high sec player and I'm personally in agreement with this idea. I don't typically pvp, and I hate even attempting to use a jump clone cause i'll lose my attribute implants for at least 24hrs. It would help me to get more involved in pvp. I'm not worried about losing ships cause I'll probably be flying fairly cheap ships like drakes, bombers, caracals ect. ect., but hey, that's just more combat for someone else isn't it?
However, this isn't the reason why I suggest to remove them and instead apply the +5 directly to the player. The reason I suggest this is because I do understand that attribute implants are generally a MUST in Eve for at least the first year. The first thing I've ever seen anyone tell a noob in a lot of cases is to get attribute implants. Hell, I've even personally given money to a noob to buy some +3's. Attribute implants have basically been established as a neccessity as compared to a perk, so of course players are reluctant to risk them.
When it comes to atributes I find it unfair that ANYONE should have to reduce their training time in order to enjoy the game the way they want to while others get max it out and still enjoy the game they want to, but rarely ever have to risk them.
I feel so strongly about this because no one should ever have to risk less and gain more. Attribute implants are the only part of Eve that when applied to high sec is actually better than in low/null/wh space.
Hardwire implants are much more effective in pvp because for a pilot that knows what they're doing, they make a difference. Mining is better Ratting is better Missions and incursions are better Sites are better complexes are better
Attribute implants?? They're the same...Unless you're getting podded more frequently...I which case they're not worth risking...Yet, aren't higher risks supposed to yield better results?
So wouldn't it make sense that someone in null should be able to train just as fast as anyone in high sec without having to risk losing millions of isk to do so??
I've never been podded in high sec even during a war. I was podded once by a low sec gate camp cause at the time I didn't know that pods could warp that quickly.
However, I lost like 6 pods in null sec, and I was only there for 2 weeks.
Again, I spend the vast majority of my time in high sec. So for me to say that it's unfair for them to have to risk lots of isk or lose training time? Well, that must mean it's unfair.
The only thing players should have to risk in relation to risk vs reward is isk. The more isk you risk, the more reward you get. I don't risk much in high sec, so i don't get much. However, I'm not risking my +5 implants and i'm gaining SP. Nullers are risking isk in order to gain SP.
I personally think that apart from not having an updated clone and being in a t3, there should be no tie between risks and SP.
Reguardless of what anyone risks, we should all have the same potential for SP per min at equal risk. |
flapie 2
Eternal Darkness. G00DFELLAS
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:51:00 -
[240] - Quote
I agree to disagree really.
Yes it maybe a blockade from some "New players" to get into low/null sec. But no it should not just be removed, as they have more impact on the game then the older "learning skills" (at least that's my POV).
Now a long long long time ago, when eve was still young and graphically a lot less >< CCP toyed with the idea of making implants that had attributes that stayed with the Player even after destruction. Sadly enough some tw.at trashed that idea and the +5 implants is the last improvement we saw in this area.
I would like to use this topic to petition the comeback of this older idea, make implants that have a attribute set that is fixed after using them, or revamp all the implants to have say 1/3 of the points stay (+3 would then give +1 if you get podded) and maybe introduce a skill to get 2/3 when trained at level 4 or 5 (+3 would then give +2 when podded). And when plugging a implant back in they recalculated the values (you lost a +3 and bought a +5, now you still have +3.3 when podded).
Sounds like a fair idea to me tbh. |
|
flapie 2
Eternal Darkness. G00DFELLAS
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:59:00 -
[241] - Quote
Gogela wrote:OP... there are players that have had +5s since 2003. If anything we will see stronger implants so newer players can catch up. What's done is done. You're going in the opposite direction of what must be done, and what CCP is doing already. gl w/ that
Ow really, give me 1 name i dare you 1 name of a person that had +5 implants since 2003. You wont be able to do so, and you need need to figure out why cause i ain't gonna tell you why. But regardless of the fact if you actually find out why no player had +5s since 2003, this remark is totally useless and very untrue. |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:01:00 -
[242] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way. You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous. HTFU Nullbear. [A big wall of text] The only thing players should have to risk in relation to risk vs reward is isk. The more isk you risk, the more reward you get..
And when you wear those +5 implants in Nullsec, what are you risking besides isk? Its the same if you take your 2 billion isk faction fit Battleship to Nullsec. If you wear +5 implants in Nullsec then you are risking more isk for a higher reward. Working as intended. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
248
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:23:00 -
[243] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way. You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous. HTFU Nullbear. [A big wall of text] The only thing players should have to risk in relation to risk vs reward is isk. The more isk you risk, the more reward you get.. And when you wear those +5 implants in Nullsec, what are you risking besides isk? Its the same if you take your 2 billion isk faction fit Battleship to Nullsec. If you wear +5 implants in Nullsec then you are risking more isk for a higher reward. Working as intended.
In losing those implants you're losing training over time, not just isk |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
69
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:57:00 -
[244] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Zyress wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way. You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous. HTFU Nullbear. [A big wall of text] The only thing players should have to risk in relation to risk vs reward is isk. The more isk you risk, the more reward you get.. And when you wear those +5 implants in Nullsec, what are you risking besides isk? Its the same if you take your 2 billion isk faction fit Battleship to Nullsec. If you wear +5 implants in Nullsec then you are risking more isk for a higher reward. Working as intended. In losing those implants you're losing training over time, not just isk
Not if you haver new +5's waiting in your respawn station, which I know I do, its just isk. Much like not flying a ship you can't afford to loose you shouldn't wear implants you can't afford to loose, you have to evaluate your risks and what you can afford. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
223
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:06:00 -
[245] - Quote
I bet if you would have played the game more instead of watching your skill bar blinking, you would loose less pods in the end. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
248
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:52:00 -
[246] - Quote
Zyress wrote:
Not if you haver new +5's waiting in your respawn station, which I know I do, its just isk. Much like not flying a ship you can't afford to loose you shouldn't wear implants you can't afford to loose, you have to evaluate your risks and what you can afford.
Ya kinda just stated my point....
Cash gets you a plex, plex gets you isk, isk gets you attribute implants, attribute implants give you more SP per year.
hence cash for SP which last time I checked the OVERWHELMING population of Eve was strongly against.
Now, as far as evaluating your risks. Most players (expecially noobs) would place high value on attribute implants. So, don't fly what you can't afford to lose, OR don't fly where you're taking heavy risks on losing what you can't afford to lose.
When it comes to ships and modules, you can lose everything including your isk and all you would need to do is go grind out some isk for a couple of weeks and be back on your feet.
Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.
There should be no method to allow purchasing of SP, yet this is what attribute implants are.
I don't see why anyone wouldn't agree with this idea. It's a benefit to EVERYONE in Eve.
The only valid agrument that has been made is that they're a risk vs reward factor. I agree, but this doesn't mean they shouldn't be removed.
Instead, remove them and do as I have posted from another player's suggestion and allow hardwire implants to be cross fitted into these slots.
This does several things for Eve. Equal SP accumulation for all players, keeps risks up by allowing hardwires to be put in those slots, allows COMBAT to be modified instead of SP, also has the benefit of giving players more hardwire implant versatility, and helps out the hardwire implant market which is generally only effective for the most directed implants such as damage buffs and mining buffs. Now, if players could mix and match, you might get players like me in a stealth bomber with an implant in slot 1 to boost CPU allowing me to get a better fit, and buff to torp damage in slot 6.
Hardwire implants are something most players are much more willing to risk because they actually feel like perks, so when you lose them, you don't feel like your effectiveness has been hendered.
Attribute implants are the exact opposite in that players feel they're a priority and without them your SP per year is hendered. |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
69
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 19:15:00 -
[247] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Zyress wrote:
Not if you haver new +5's waiting in your respawn station, which I know I do, its just isk. Much like not flying a ship you can't afford to loose you shouldn't wear implants you can't afford to loose, you have to evaluate your risks and what you can afford.
Ya kinda just stated my point.... Cash gets you a plex, plex gets you isk, isk gets you attribute implants, attribute implants give you more SP per year. hence cash for SP which last time I checked the OVERWHELMING population of Eve was strongly against. Now, as far as evaluating your risks. Most players (expecially noobs) would place high value on attribute implants. So, don't fly what you can't afford to lose, OR don't fly where you're taking heavy risks on losing what you can't afford to lose. When it comes to ships and modules, you can lose everything including your isk and all you would need to do is go grind out some isk for a couple of weeks and be back on your feet. Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk. There should be no method to allow purchasing of SP, yet this is what attribute implants are. I don't see why anyone wouldn't agree with this idea. It's a benefit to EVERYONE in Eve. The only valid agrument that has been made is that they're a risk vs reward factor. I agree, but this doesn't mean they shouldn't be removed. Instead, remove them and do as I have posted from another player's suggestion and allow hardwire implants to be cross fitted into these slots. This does several things for Eve. Equal SP accumulation for all players, keeps risks up by allowing hardwires to be put in those slots, allows COMBAT to be modified instead of SP, also has the benefit of giving players more hardwire implant versatility, and helps out the hardwire implant market which is generally only effective for the most directed implants such as damage buffs and mining buffs. Now, if players could mix and match, you might get players like me in a stealth bomber with an implant in slot 1 to boost CPU allowing me to get a better fit, and buff to torp damage in slot 6. Hardwire implants are something most players are much more willing to risk because they actually feel like perks, so when you lose them, you don't feel like your effectiveness has been hendered. Attribute implants are the exact opposite in that players feel they're a priority and without them your SP per year is hendered.
This is assuming everyone buys plex with cash. A practice I don't support. Never bought one, never sold one. I pay my subscription every month, thats the only real cash I put into the game. No way I can prove that to you but it is what it is. I support removing plex but not attribute implants. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 03:01:00 -
[248] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.
Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod.
All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else.
Ultimately you want to have your cake and eat it to.
You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
250
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 03:48:00 -
[249] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.
Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod. All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else. Ultimately you want to have your cake and eat it to. You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining.
ACTUALLY, I'm am one of the dreaded high sec carebears flying around with the same +5 attribute implants I've had since I bought them. I've been in Eve for 4 years and spent only 4 weeks of that either in null or in a wh.
SO, I am not protecting my interests at all, but rather noticing something that IMO, not only hinders the amount of available pvp, but is also unfair to those who chose a more rugged lifestyle. |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
114
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 04:19:00 -
[250] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.
Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod. All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else. Ultimately you want to have your cake and eat it to. You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining. ACTUALLY, I'm am one of the dreaded high sec carebears flying around with the same +5 attribute implants I've had since I bought them. I've been in Eve for 4 years and spent only 4 weeks of that either in null or in a wh. SO, I am not protecting my interests at all, but rather noticing something that IMO, not only hinders the amount of available pvp, but is also unfair to those who chose a more rugged lifestyle.
Joe, no one cares. The idea sucks, its unnecessary and removes risk. Making ISK in the game is a goal and with it comes power. Be it a better ship or faster training. Mittani for instance, or Chribba, can pvp in full 5s and such and do it all day. You cannot I assume. It's because you don't have the isk to spare. Most don't. As such you have motivation to make more. Because it's power in game. Your idea bring us closer to the line of worthless isk. If you stopped losing implants upon podding the money would instead go to bigger ships and the same people who can afford the 5s would be instead in much more powerful hulls. The same argument could be made to just put everybody in the same income bracket to equalize ship use.
You can come up with a million reasons on why this or that needs to occur but its not broke doesn't need fixing and it will be rejected by the playerbase. |
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
251
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Posted - 2012.05.11 05:25:00 -
[251] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.
Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod. All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else. Ultimately you want to have your cake and eat it to. You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining. ACTUALLY, I'm am one of the dreaded high sec carebears flying around with the same +5 attribute implants I've had since I bought them. I've been in Eve for 4 years and spent only 4 weeks of that either in null or in a wh. SO, I am not protecting my interests at all, but rather noticing something that IMO, not only hinders the amount of available pvp, but is also unfair to those who chose a more rugged lifestyle. Joe, no one cares. The idea sucks, its unnecessary and removes risk. Making ISK in the game is a goal and with it comes power. Be it a better ship or faster training. Mittani for instance, or Chribba, can pvp in full 5s and such and do it all day. You cannot I assume. It's because you don't have the isk to spare. Most don't. As such you have motivation to make more. Because it's power in game. Your idea bring us closer to the line of worthless isk. If you stopped losing implants upon podding the money would instead go to bigger ships and the same people who can afford the 5s would be instead in much more powerful hulls. The same argument could be made to just put everybody in the same income bracket to equalize ship use. You can come up with a million reasons on why this or that needs to occur but its not broke doesn't need fixing and it will be rejected by the playerbase.
If u would bother to read my other posts, I suggest the removal of attribute implants and instead allow hardwire implants to be cross fitted, with restrictions of course.
Also, the fact that this thread has gone 13 pages means that there are plenty of players that support and don't support the idea.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. You're not that special not matter what your mom tells you. |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
114
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Posted - 2012.05.11 05:54:00 -
[252] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.
Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod. All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else. Ultimately you want to have your cae and eat it to. You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining. ACTUALLY, I'm am one of the dreaded high sec carebears flying around with the same +5 attribute implants I've had since I bought them. I've been in Eve for 4 years and spent only 4 weeks of that either in null or in a wh. SO, I am not protecting my interests at all, but rather noticing something that IMO, not only hinders the amount of available pvp, but is also unfair to those who chose a more rugged lifestyle. Joe, no one cares. The idea sucks, its unnecessary and removes risk. Making ISK in the game is a goal and with it comes power. Be it a better ship or faster training. Mittani for instance, or Chribba, can pvp in full 5s and such and do it all day. You cannot I assume. It's because you don't have the isk to spare. Most don't. As such you have motivation to make more. Because it's power in game. Your idea bring us closer to the line of worthless isk. If you stopped losing implants upon podding the money would instead go to bigger ships and the same people who can afford the 5s would be instead in much more powerful hulls. The same argument could be made to just put everybody in the same income bracket to equalize ship use. You can come up with a million reasons on why this or that needs to occur but its not broke doesn't need fixing and it will be rejected by the playerbase. If u would bother to read my other posts, I suggest the removal of attribute implants and instead allow hardwire implants to be cross fitted, with restrictions of course. Also, the fact that this thread has gone 13 pages means that there are plenty of players that support and don't support the idea. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. You're not that special not matter what your mom tells you.
No it doesn't joe. It just means the same few people reply with really long posts. You don't have thirteen pages of support and I doubt you have thirteen people behind it. Even if you did it doesn't mean anything. Some things one can envision being changed others not. If you believe you have a shot in hell of having podding risk reduced to a minimal level for the sake of fairness to those who die everyday compared to those who rarely die by all means keep posting. Like AFK cloak threads, ECM nerf threads, hulk survivability threads and make highsec safe threads your thread isn't likely to get a dev response. Ill check back next week and see if it's changed. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
251
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 07:54:00 -
[253] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote: No it doesn't joe. It just means the same few people reply with really long posts. You don't have thirteen pages of support and I doubt you have thirteen people behind it. Even if you did it doesn't mean anything.
I didn't say 13 pages of support, I said 13 pages of supporters and non-supporters. However, if I cared to go back through and count all the supporters of this idea in this single thread on this topic (not even considering several others on this thread) then I would find well over 13 supports in this one alone.
Oh, and yes, the more player support an idea has, the more likely it is to happen.
Also, CCP has already removed training skills, so...what's the next step?
Quote:Some things one can envision being changed others not. If you believe you have a shot in hell of having podding risk reduced to a minimal level for the sake of fairness to those who die everyday compared to those who rarely die by all means keep posting. Like AFK cloak threads, ECM nerf threads, hulk survivability threads and make highsec safe threads your thread isn't likely to get a dev response. Ill check back next week and see if it's changed.
Again, my idea was NOT to reduce the risks of being podded. If you would ever care to comment on my suggestion that I've posted several times about removing them and allowing hardwire implants to be cross fitted with certain limitations, then you'd see that whether it's a +3 or a 3%, they still contain the same risks.
I don't see why you or anyone else can't get behind this idea. It's not like we're suggesting this for the sake of making life better for a certain group of people. This is good for EVERYONE in Eve.
Right now you might think it's a suggestion meant purely for null and wh cowboys. However, then next time you get podded and lose attribute implants, or the next time you have to spend 24 hrs stuck in a jump clone wondering how much time you're losing on the special skill you're training, then you'll be a lot more interested in a suggestion like this.
However, to me it appears that you, like me, spend most of your time in high sec putting little to no risk on your implants and seem to think that you have the right to do that while others don't.
EVERYTHING in Eve is designed to INCREASE with risks. Mining in null gets you more rewards at greater risks ratting/missioning/plexing in null gets more rewards at greater risks Hardwire implants are noticably more effective in pvp than pve.
Everything grows with risk, EXCEPT attributes. I can fly in high sec safe and sound and even if I do get my ship exploded then my mod can escape relatively easily. However, in low you have insta scram gate camps and in null/wh you have bubbles. So, if rewards are supposed to increase with risks, then why are low/null/wh space players not getting higher benefits from attribute implants then those of high sec? Oh wait, it's because they're not balanced around a risk vs reward system.... They're simply there to allow all players to increase there sp per year.
Again though, I don't see why anyone would be against this because it means that we can ALL train at faster rates without having to risk something that is basically a necessity. Wouldn't it be nice to start a new character and not have to worry about spending 600 mil right off the bat for implants just so you can get into a ship and actually play the game?
I'm willing to bet that if you have an alt char/account then the first thing you did was buy those implants, which brings me back to my point of, If they're not a necessity, then why does everyone strive so hard to get and maintain them? |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
227
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:00:00 -
[254] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:[ hence cash for SP which last time I checked the OVERWHELMING population of Eve was strongly against.
I never saw ppl bitching about plex for imps. This is really that insignificant noone gives a f*ck about. What people are against is pure instant SP for YOUR TOON against PLEX/CASH. What you are doing is just trying to justify your silly idea with something which simply is not true. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
251
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:10:00 -
[255] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:[ hence cash for SP which last time I checked the OVERWHELMING population of Eve was strongly against. I never saw ppl bitching about plex for imps. This is really that insignificant noone gives a f*ck about. What people are against is pure instant SP for YOUR TOON against PLEX/CASH. What you are doing is just trying to justify your silly idea with something which simply is not true.
How is it not true? If I use a plex to purchase attribute implants, then I have essentially just bought over 1 month worth of SP for the year, and if I do it every time I get podded then I've essentially removed this so called "risk" of having attribute implants.
No one gives a crap about hardwire implants because they dont' make the player and they don't break the fight. They simply give a slight edge that can easily be overcome through SP or player skill.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
227
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Posted - 2012.05.11 08:14:00 -
[256] - Quote
so people are apparently fine with this. Stop pretending its a big deal and thus a reason to remove them. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
252
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:24:00 -
[257] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:so people are apparently fine with this. Stop pretending its a big deal and thus a reason to remove them.
If everyone was fine with this, this and every other thread just like it that has been made wouldn't exist.
I'm sure if you actually measured this out, the vast majority of Eve players would be for the removal of attribute implants as long as something was there to maintain the risks.
I've already given an idea on how the risks could be maintained. Don't really feel like saying it again. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
227
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:30:00 -
[258] - Quote
this is the first and only thread I remember having seen in this forum about removing learning implants. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
93
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Posted - 2012.05.11 08:50:00 -
[259] - Quote
Implants for high sec are a trade off. Theres lots of cheap ways to put implants into your clones. Some of which have been suggested here. And if you can afford to PvP in BC, T2 or T3 hulls but CANNOT afford even TWO +3s for your current attribute enhancements which gives you 3/5s of the training time and KEEP those in each time you get podded in null you are definitely either dying FAR to much or you suck at making isk in Eve and should never be flying the fleet setups your flying.
And if your Alliance has a ship replacement fund why not just have them *gulp* set up an implant replacement fund for every pod loss mail? I mean theyre swimming in isk according to the numbers. Its up to the players to use whats given to them NOT for CCP to nerf **** to oblivion everytime someone bitches.
Implants are NOT mandatory they are suggested highly at a price......RISK of loss. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
HELLBOUNDMAN
Wiki Industrialists Wiki Conglomerates
50
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Posted - 2012.05.11 08:57:00 -
[260] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:this is the first and only thread I remember having seen in this forum about removing learning implants.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=98727
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1100446#post1100446
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=187401#post187401
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=26894
http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/10/death-to-attributes.html
I don't know how to search the old forums, but i'm sure there were tons on there, and these are the ones on these forums that were easy to find. |
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
256
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Posted - 2012.05.11 09:01:00 -
[261] - Quote
Yeah, I wasn't gonna put that much effort into it... I see your thread made it on there too... |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
227
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 09:17:00 -
[262] - Quote
ok there are some, idea still sucks balls. If you want skilling faster, accept the risk of loosing them. As exactly everything else out there in game (SP are ingame asset as everything else). |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.05.11 11:51:00 -
[263] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:ok there are some, idea still sucks balls. If you want skilling faster, accept the risk of loosing them. As exactly everything else out there in game (SP are ingame asset as everything else).
Think the op's point is more that EVE is based on ISK risk vs reward. But in the case of Learning implants its basically possible to lose potential training time. Which is a unique risk as it cannot be recovered. Whereas you can always make more ISK. It's a risk that directly contravenes the primary goal of a new player out of the gate: Advance as fast as possible and experience all the cool stuff you can.
Learning implants make a new player very risk adverse and being too risk adverse in a sandbox game means you're missing out on quite a bit. A risk adverse new player is a player that isn't trying out all the awesome things that might hook them into paying that sweet sweet subscription money to CCP.
Hell, speaking from experience, I've never really PVP'd. Why? Because the implants in my head cost too damn much to risk. Period. If they weren't there, I'd be all over low sec, null sec, FW, etc. But I'm not risking faster character advancement for it. It's easy to wave away the risk as an older player, as you can already use all the cool toys and are churning away on skills where losing a few days isn't a huge deal. But for players trying to get up to that par, its a huge deal and a major turn off if you're just starting out.
Balancing "Advancing faster" vs "Getting to do cool stuff" is kind of a suck ass design principle. You're pitting the two biggest goals against each other. "Leveling up" vs "Experiencing new gameplay content" basically.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
227
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Posted - 2012.05.11 13:46:00 -
[264] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote: Think the op's point is more that EVE is based on ISK risk vs reward. But in the case of Learning implants its basically possible to lose potential training time. Which is a unique risk as it cannot be recovered.
you can always put new imps after you lost your pod, so its basically only ISK.
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Whereas you can always make more ISK. It's a risk that directly contravenes the primary goal of a new player out of the gate: Advance as fast as possible and experience all the cool stuff you can. he can go with +3 and just accept the fact he cant afford +5. Period. I'm not flying with slaveset around and dont complain I'm not getting the max of it, will those implants be next on your list? SP are ingame asset, exactly as everything else. You can skill acceptably fast even with +3 imps. Thats enough actually.
Xhaiden Ora wrote: Hell, speaking from experience, I've never really PVP'd. Why? Because the implants in my head cost too damn much to risk.
yeah, you limiting your game experience because of silly reason not skilling fast enough. Thats your fault and your loss, not CCPs. Nevertheless you are still paying monthly subscriptions. You know, skillpoints arent content, the content is playing the actual game. |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.05.11 16:32:00 -
[265] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote: you can always put new imps after you lost your pod, so its basically only ISK.
No, its not. Missed the point. If I fly a 5m ship and it gets blown up, I have the luxury of time to earn another 5m or PLEX to just buy it. If I lose 100 mil in implants, I do not have the luxury of time to earn another 100 mil. I must immediately have a new set of implants on hand, where my clone is, at all times. Otherwise I have permanently lost training time.
I can risk the 5m ship, its not a biggie, it can be recovered. All I lose is ISK and pride. Training time loss cannot. Jump clones are a awkward stop gap with the exact same problem.
Additionally, if I do not know about Learning implants when I first play ( and I didn't, as the tutorials are arse ) or cannot afford them ( As no newbie can ) then I have effectively lost potential training time as well. When I first started out this ended up with me using my first character just to churn up ISK for implants and learning skills for a second character. Then I played the first gimp character while the second character trained the "proper" skills ( which were not fun new ship/toy skills ). Because according to EVEmon, the second char would surpass the first in total SP because of it. While having better skills because I actually knew what did what and what to train the second time around.
This is a terrible first experience for an MMO. A genre where most players typically only give a new MMO one shot and base their first and lasting expression on that first shot. Its very hard for an MMO to convince someone to give the game another shot down the road. I quit for a good year after only playing for a few months the first time. Because I got bored with nothing much to do because of the risk aversion of having implants.
Its fine for EVE to be Hard Mode(tm). That's its thing. What's not fine is having a new player experience akin to telling someone they're going to train to be a kickboxer after they've already been in the ring for 5 rounds.
Robert Caldera wrote: The can go with +3 and just accept the fact he cant afford +5. Period. I'm not flying with slaveset around and dont complain I'm not getting the max of it, will those implants be next on your list? SP are ingame asset, exactly as everything else. You can skill acceptably fast even with +3 imps. Thats enough actually.
We're not talking about combat oriented implants.
Robert Caldera wrote: yeah, you limiting your game experience because of silly reason not skilling fast enough. Thats your fault and your loss, not CCPs. Nevertheless you are still paying monthly subscriptions. You know, skillpoints arent content, the content is playing the actual game.
I only just renewed in the hopes that the game had changed some of its more offputting and awkward ways. The removal of Learning skills is what gave me hope. Having game mechanics that adversely affect or drive away new customers makes no sense from a design or business perspective. I must admit I don't understand this weird attitude with some of the EVE community where they're not happy unless other players are unhappy and oppose ideas to improve the game based on nothing more than what is basically just "WELL IN MY DAY WE WALKED UP HILL TO SCHOOL. BOTH WAYS. IN THE SNOW."
You can't seriously tell me the best thing for EVE is to be as difficult to attract new customers as possible? It seems like whenever someone suggests something on here to make the game more accessible there's always one group that sits there yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN!". -.-
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
257
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Posted - 2012.05.11 18:16:00 -
[266] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:ok there are some, idea still sucks balls. If you want skilling faster, accept the risk of loosing them. As exactly everything else out there in game (SP are ingame asset as everything else).
THATS THE PROBLEM.
I do skill taste because I wear them. However, I do.t have to put near as much risk on them because I'm in high sec.
Look, the more isk you spend on a ship and its fitting, the more effective you become. The more you're willing to spend over another person then you become more and more effective than them. If your William g to risk the isk I. A faction fitted tengu, then your pvp and pve capability is going to be more effective than Simone who flies a bomber. If you put more risk on that tengu than so.one with the exact same fit, well you have a potential for more reward.
With attribute implants its not like this. You can never do better than +5. So while your putting more risk on your implants than me, you will never receive more reward from those implants than I would. |
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