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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.04.18 20:47:00 -
[1]
1. It fires a friggin laser beam, that says turret of some kind to me.
2. It makes sense if you look at the launcher slot layouts on caldari ships.
3. Having them in mid slots will cripple the defence of any shield tanking ship that uses them due to everything else they have to try and cram into their mids and since they are to be used at under 30km you can't make excuses for it.
I don't use them personally as I think they're useless, but if they were a high slot I'd consider it as it could be a better option then putting a salvager in that last crammed utility slot.
That is all.
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.04.18 21:06:00 -
[2]
1. No, it doesn't. My backstory knowledge of this is incomplete, but it's not as simple as hislots = things that launch stuff and mids/lows = everything else. Otherwise, explain cloaking devices and salvagers (salvagers are SCANNERS)
2) Uhh...TP is the MINMATAR racial EW.
3. I repeat: TPs are minmatar racial EW. They're useful
a) when you have some free midslots open (Which many minmatar ships do), and
b) When you're a specialized minmatar EW boat.
Nothing wrong with them.
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Mikael Mechka
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Posted - 2009.04.18 21:11:00 -
[3]
1. No.
2. No. It may make sense if you look at caldari ships, but last time I checked, there were 3 other races, and not many of those are shield tankers.
3. No. Having them in the highslot would cripple the damage output of any ship reliant on turrets (since you want to make it into a turret slot). ALL races use turrets including Caldari, but not many ships outside Caldari ships are designed to use more than 1-2 launchers. This would essentially be a nerf to any turret using ship that might fit a painter in a spare mid.
Lets look at it like this: you make painter use highs and turret slots, minmatar become the only race to have an ewar in the highslot that uses a turret/launcher point. This is a huge imbalance. Nos and Neuts, which are the only form of highslot ewar and are not restricted to specific turret/missile hardpoints. Forget big ships, every ceptor with turrets will mount painters in their highs to suppliment their tackle and help kill targets faster.
Another thing, Target Painters are a pretty weak form of ewar. Making them take an important highslot would mean no one fields them except Caldari and a few specialised setups with spare turret slots. Freeing up those mids on Caldari ships would make their tanks far too strong for pvp.
In short: No.
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Catalystica
Caldari Steel Balls Brigade
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Posted - 2009.04.18 21:20:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
They're useful
You're funny
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Anubis Assassin
Caldari Three 6 MaFiA Dark Crystal Empire
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Posted - 2009.04.18 21:30:00 -
[5]
Quote: 2) Uhh...TP is the MINMATAR racial EW.
How you figure?
I figure your "oh noez!" posts fit in line with most of the other "racial" posts here. I think the TP being a high-slot module makes more sense. I've thought it a few times as well, just never posted about it. How many turret ships actually use a TP anyway? Besides projectiles.
Also, TP's don't suck. If you would check the skills that goes along with it, it's pretty damn useful. Especially to us missile users who pretty much F***ING REQUIRE IT TO HIT WORTH A FLYING F***!.. Thanks to CCP f'ing over missiles, we have to use them to cope with haulers speed tanking missiles... --------------------------- I have to make my own sig break? WTF? These forums suck CCP, fix 'em or get something better... I'm tired of reading Khraunus' sig every single time I read one of his |
Aidan Patrick
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Posted - 2009.04.18 21:32:00 -
[6]
I also say no to this...
They are balanced perfectly in the mids.
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.04.18 21:37:00 -
[7]
It still works on the minmatar racial ships.
Bellicose: Has 3 launcher hp's 3 projectile hardpoints with bonus to projectiles.
It can fit 2 target painters in the slots left over.
Hugginn: Pretty much the same but able to fit 3 target painters in high and then it can fit more webs, making it work better again after the nerf.
What's wrong with that?
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
Issaries Valran
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.04.18 21:42:00 -
[8]
Tell you what, I'll trade you the Minmatar racial ewar, Target Painters for the Caldari ewar ECM. Target painters benefit missles most anyways. And Caldari have free high slots to use them in the highs. |
5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.04.18 22:31:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mikael Mechka
Another thing, Target Painters are a pretty weak form of ewar. Making them take an important highslot would mean no one fields them except Caldari and a few specialised setups with spare turret slots. Freeing up those mids on Caldari ships would make their tanks far too strong for pvp.
In short: No.
Ok maybe not use a turret, it's like a turret in a way though thats all I meant.
I see your point about interceptors but that could be balanced by changing the fit requirements somehow.
As for freeing up those mids for caldari, who uses them actually? Especially in a fleet of all things.
Anyone with sense would get tacklers to do it like interceptors anyway.
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.04.18 23:47:00 -
[10]
No, don't, and stop coming up with godawful ideas.
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Mikael Mechka
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Posted - 2009.04.18 23:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Ok maybe not use a turret, it's like a turret in a way though thats all I meant.
I see your point about interceptors but that could be balanced by changing the fit requirements somehow.
As for freeing up those mids for caldari, who uses them actually? Especially in a fleet of all things.
Anyone with sense would get tacklers to do it like interceptors anyway.
Then why would there need to be any change? Since as you said, they aren't used in fleets largely and those that have them would be more close/mid range setups that would be operating in the TP's optimal range.
Changing the fitting requirements to prevent it from being spammed in the high's of ships that do almost no damage anyway won't make the module more appealing, especially as it's effect is not as desirable for smaller ships (lets not forget bonused ships like the vigil, making it harder to fit will mean it is reduced to a ceptor wannabe or reworking the bonuses to make it fit TP's comfortably).
Ships that a meant to fit ewar have to sacrifice their mids to do so (with the exception for nos/neut though those are scaled with frig/cruiser/battleship sized versions). Plus with the recent bomber changes, I don't think your idea of changing TP's (pretty much mandatory for torp bombers) to using high's will be very popular with the bomber pilots. Nemesis: 5 highs, 3 siege launchers, 1 bomb, 1 cloak. Where are you going to put the TP to make the most of those torps?
All in all, it will be a lot of reworking to change something that doesn't really need changing.
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Koyama Ise
Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2009.04.19 01:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Catalystica
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
They're useful
You're funny
You're saying that now, but I was hit with 2 stealth bombers with target painters, it wasn't instapop and I managed to get out because the tackler was a bubble and moved away, but **** that hurt. --- O.P. is made of fail c/d.
Originally by: rValdez5987 I dont like your sig. It fills me with rage.
I want it removed. Reported.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.04.19 02:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden 2) Uhh...TP is the MINMATAR racial EW.
This, underused unpopular relatively useless ewar but it's minmatar's main ewar.....
just wish someone had reminded ccp of that when they where designing the marauders
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.04.19 03:12:00 -
[14]
Quote: I figure your "oh noez!" posts fit in line with most of the other "racial" posts here. I think the TP being a high-slot module makes more sense. I've thought it a few times as well, just never posted about it. How many turret ships actually use a TP anyway? Besides projectiles.
Look at the bonuses of Minmatar EW ships (Vigil, Bellicose, Hyena, Rapier, Huginn). It's just like how sensor damps are gallente EW.
And TPs synergize perfectly with minmatar ships and the normal minmatar fighting style. A large problem for fast ships is that often times, their speed reduces hit quality of their own shots...especially if the target is doing the same thing.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2009.04.19 03:18:00 -
[15]
Target painters help out long range turrets even more then missiles. They need more optimal imho. Something that can be used in fleet fights would be nice. But they can increase your chance to hit up to optimals by as much as 20%. And you're definitely going to get more solid hits. Period.
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Vorononv Circut
The Maverick Navy PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.19 03:33:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Vorononv Circut on 19/04/2009 03:34:26 Why stop there... why aren't webs hi-slot items? Oh- and afterburners - after all they are EJECTING something, that screams missile bay to me. And sensor boosters - I mean come on, they're like binoculars, right? You have to have the lens exposed to the outside for binoculars... like it's a turret! Man... we really shouldn't have midslots in the game - you're right - gj man.
On a more serious note: I wish target painters had more range.
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Vorononv Circut
The Maverick Navy PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.19 03:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Kahega Amielden 2) Uhh...TP is the MINMATAR racial EW.
This, underused unpopular relatively useless ewar but it's minmatar's main ewar.....
just wish someone had reminded ccp of that when they where designing the marauders
Seriously... it really makes the golem overpowered. Also, why did gallente get the web bonus? That was the secondary ewar minmatar got (rapier, huginn).
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Wrayeth
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.04.19 03:43:00 -
[18]
TBH, signed. I have not been able to run so much as a single point on my frickin' raven since I started having to use a painter to make torps do full damage to BS. As such, I haven't used my raven in PvP in ages - instead, I've been going with armor-tanking BS. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.04.19 06:05:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Blane Xero on 19/04/2009 06:05:52 I wouldnt disagree with this change should it come to light, but i would say one thing; It would have to be balanced against too many ships for it to ever happen.
I don't know many ships that DONT have utility slots. Even bombers will always have one spare unless they fit a covops cyno. So they can still use the painter on both bombing and torp settups. And they get a free med.
Raven has two spare highs, Two spare slots for TP's. One free'd up mid for pvp. (Cause if you fit more than one right now you're not fitting any tank at all).
Minmatar EW ships get more mid(s) for webs and they can use the unbonused highs for TPs. (Bellicose has two unbonused highs, Rapier has 3 free highs, 2 after covops and 1 after covops + probe launcher or covops cyno, Huginn has three unbonused highslots, hyena has one unbonused high)
Imo, it wouldn't hurt anything (if done right), and suddenly a very underused EW becomes very much something to regard in settups. Hell for once it might not just become as simple as "If spare highslots = Yes then Nos/Nuet = Fitted" ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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4 LOM
United Gamers
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Posted - 2009.04.19 06:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Blane Xero Edited by: Blane Xero on 19/04/2009 06:05:52 I don't know many ships that DONT have utility slots. Even bombers will always have one spare unless they fit a covops cyno. So they can still use the painter on both bombing and torp settups. And they get a free med.
Bombs and torps now fit on together... but thats offtopic.
I think its great, and it would be a boost to min, they would have the only EW that does not use midslots, means you move your EW and can have more midslot goodness.
I think there are far to many moduals being cramed into midslots these days would be nice to have a few more usefull pvp high slot items... (sometimes i wonde why caldari always are the ones to have to sacrifice tank to get on the more ncessary pvp items, scram, web/ab, and what not. Sure armor tanking ships have to sacrifice tank for more damage but they dont ahve to sacrifice the neccisary pvp mods.
Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.04.19 06:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: 4 LOM
Originally by: Blane Xero Edited by: Blane Xero on 19/04/2009 06:05:52 I don't know many ships that DONT have utility slots. Even bombers will always have one spare unless they fit a covops cyno. So they can still use the painter on both bombing and torp settups. And they get a free med.
Bombs and torps now fit on together... but thats offtopic. Eh, Fair do's, must have come in the latest patch i guess? But still, you're either fitting for torps or fitting for bombs. anyway *shrug* ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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4 LOM
United Gamers
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Posted - 2009.04.19 07:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Blane Xero Eh, Fair do's, must have come in the latest patch i guess? But still, you're either fitting for torps or fitting for bombs. anyway *shrug*
Actually you can quite easily fit both with the fitting on the manticore at least.
Had a fitting worked out with 3x seige II 1x covert ops II 1x bomb launcher
2x senser boosters (named) 1x 1mn ab (named) 1x target painter (named
2x Bcu II
But again this is totaly off topic for the thread :)
Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.04.19 09:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Wrayeth TBH, signed. I have not been able to run so much as a single point on my frickin' raven since I started having to use a painter to make torps do full damage to BS.
You needed a painter to deal full damage against all BS before the QR changes.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.04.19 12:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Wrayeth TBH, signed. I have not been able to run so much as a single point on my frickin' raven since I started having to use a painter to make torps do full damage to BS.
You needed a painter to deal full damage against all BS before the QR changes.
Not immobile ones, you didnt. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.04.19 12:29:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Blane Xero on 19/04/2009 12:29:33 Lurvly Dubble poast for trubbled toast. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.19 13:24:00 -
[26]
TP may be minmater EW, but they are more useful for Caldari :).
And they are EWAR mods, EWAR goes in the mids.
It kinda sucks that Caldari needs TP for the bigger BSs sized weapons as the tank suffers unless you got gang mates with TPs.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.04.19 14:45:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 19/04/2009 14:50:22
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Wrayeth TBH, signed. I have not been able to run so much as a single point on my frickin' raven since I started having to use a painter to make torps do full damage to BS.
You needed a painter to deal full damage against all BS before the QR changes.
Not immobile ones, you didnt.
Yes, you did.
Torp explosion radius was not changed in QR, being 450 m. Many BS have sigs below 450 m and required painting to take full damage from torps before QR.
Since QR, there's a velocity issue to consider as well, but that's almost inconsequential because no BC or BS (and few cruisers!) travel faster than than the explosion velocity of a torp when webbed.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.04.19 19:30:00 -
[28]
As a Minmatar pilot, I would love for the to be a high slot module. Nobody has more spare high slots then Minmatar.
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Great Smirnov
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Posted - 2009.04.20 00:40:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Target painters help out long range turrets even more then missiles.
no, they don't. in ALL cases single webber do the job WAY better then 3 painters, because bigger turrets have half-dead tracking. test it with web- and tp- drones, while web-drones at least slightly help to improve your chance to hit, the tp-drones do not help at all. heck, there even flash calculator somewhere in help database on this site, feed it with right data and you will see that a web always win over tp for all cannons. i personally have spent nearly a week with all that calculations.
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
And they are EWAR mods, EWAR goes in the mids.
neuts/nosfs are amarr EWAR mods and they are highslots modules.
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Morikai Acler
Caldari Demon Theory Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.04.20 04:03:00 -
[30]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy 1. It fires a friggin laser beam, that says turret of some kind to me.
...Have you ever seen a movie like Transformers? Where they pain the intended missile targets with small beam lasers mounted on their weapons? think of target painters like that. And consider caldari missile boats to be beam rider ships.
Originally by: 5pinDizzy 2. It makes sense if you look at the launcher slot layouts on caldari ships.
3. Having them in mid slots will cripple the defence of any shield tanking ship that uses them due to everything else they have to try and cram into their mids and since they are to be used at under 30km you can't make excuses for it.
Not really, I'll explain. Generally if a caldari pilot is gonna fit target painters on their ships they're going to be fitting heavy gank, light tank, so as to do maximum dps with their weapons. On the stealth bomber, that would also force people to chose between a bomb launcher/cloak or target painter. And not to mention, last time I checked my golem, TP's work out to about 110km optimal+falloff.
Originally by: 5pinDizzy I don't use them personally as I think they're useless, but if they were a high slot I'd consider it as it could be a better option then putting a salvager in that last crammed utility slot.
That is all.
I use them often, they're pretty handy in both PVE and PVP, especially as a caldari pilot.
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