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MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
625
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 07:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm really confused by what I'm seeing with frigate rebalanced. It's the same old status quo. It's literally not changing anything.
So I figured I do a bit of feed back on the issue. And outline the changes I find would best achieve the goal set forward by this dev blog. http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9129
For the purpose of this thread I will only do the minmatar ships, since I have more experience flying them. I've been part of Huang for 6 years, a PvP RP corporation. I've seen high sec wars, low sec pvp, and NULL sec combat in the great wildlands under Foundation. I'm joining Red vs.Blue or eve uni so I'm currently out of corp.
This 1st post will go over my thoughts on Ship lines to give a base for my following suggestions on frigates. So lets get this started then, shall we?
CCP Ship Lines
- Combat ships: designed for direct fights, such vessels are usually found spear heading an attack force, or sniping from long range. Have great damage and defense, but poor mobility. A good representation would be 18th century "ships of the line"
- Attack vessels: Made for hit and run assault, or flanking opportunities. Have great damage and mobility, but average defense. Similar in role with cavalry
- Bombardment ships: provide heavy fire support to pin the enemy down with constant barrage of ordnance. Have great damage and range, average defense and mobility. Can be compared to artillery.
- Support vessels: mainly focused on assisting a friendly force, or disrupting an enemy fleet. Have average damage, poor defense, average mobility. Electronic warfare is the prime illustration of this line.
ok so lets Break this down shall we?
CCP Ship lines
- Combat
+Damage +Defense -Mobility
- Attack
+Damage +Mobility -Defense
- Bombardment
+Damage\Range -Defense -Mobility
- Support
-damage -Defense -Mobility
So my thoughts on this? It fails to really create ship roles. All ships can fit support mods, right now if your going to fit out a minmatar frigate for E-Warfare or support, lets face it, you're going to use a rifter. I regularly go on fleet roams with my ruppy or hurricane set up for cap warfare or Support. Making dedicated support ships terrible leaves them even less desirable. You want a chance to stay on the battlefield, and by hiding your support mods in a better ship you won't get blown up as soon as you warp in.
Unfitted, your unskilled unequipped EHP should be based on the materials the ship is made of. Why does a rifter have more hp than a support ship? They could have the same hp while still allowing for one ship to have better defense capabilities over another. Ships should be balanced with the idea that all of them can be used for multiple roles. A scimitar for instance makes an amazing tackle ship.
With that in mind here is how I would lay out the new ship lines.
- Combat
+Damage *RoF* +Defense *Active*
- Assault
+Defense *passive* +Mobility
- Bombardment
+Damage *Alpha* +Support
- Support
+Defense *buffer* +Support
Notice how I'm not focusing on the weakness of ships to make them feel different, but the strengths. This allows for all ships to be useful with advantages in combat based on the ShipLine, or ship Philosophy. You've got some ships better at damage, some better at defense, and others with better support. But all ships can do everything if fitted accordingly. Just because an Assault ship doesn't have an increase to damage, doesn't mean it will have low dps.
Each type of ship line also focuses on a play style in eve. Are you the kind of player who likes to buffer tank? Or perhaps you are more fond of a passive tank? or maybe you want to fly a Combat ship with a buffer tank, that's fine too, because you can always just ignore it's bonus to active tanking and fit a nice beefy buffer tank, thus getting buffer tank AND increased damage on the same ship.
Here is where rigs come in. If you decide to forsake an advantage a ship gets, you can fit some mods to give your ship a bonus to the role you've chosen to create. Making each Rifter you see in combat, a new unknown threat. Down with Optimal fits! Or maybe a probe shows up in space, and starts opening up on you from long range with Increased alpha damage! Surprise! Lets not penalize players for thinking out side the box.
OK lets move on to post 2 which will focus on the changes to the minmatar frigate line using these ship classes. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
625
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Posted - 2012.05.06 07:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Holding |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
625
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 07:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Holding |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
626
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 09:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ammar Frigates |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
626
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Posted - 2012.05.06 09:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Caldari Frigates |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
626
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 09:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gallente Frigates |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
932
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Posted - 2012.05.06 10:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
A) These are t1 frigates, you cannot make them too powerful.
B) Wth did you just do to my rifter?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
628
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:A) These are t1 frigates, you cannot make them too powerful.
B) Wth did you just do to my rifter?
None of them are stronger than the rifter. They all brought up to it's level. If any of the ships proposed are too strong please leave feedback on which ones break past the strength of rifter and I will rebalance the proposal accordingly. Also all tech 2 versions of these ships have more slots, bonuses, and overall stats like speed, EHP, and tech 2 resistances. These might look too strong, but they are still outclassed 2 to 1 with their tech 2 counterparts.
And all i did was replace it's tracking bonus. and increase it's dps. RoF is always better than a damage boost. I've been flying rifters since before you were born. A bonus to it's defense not very appealing?
The point is it can't have a boost to tracking if we want it to be a combat ship. The combat line says it has average mobility. why would an average mobility ship need a tracking bonus? How about just bring it up to the wolf? or the jag? give it a range bonus or a bonus to damage and rof?
Or do you think it's more of a nostalgia thing? in which case I would keep it the same. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
933
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
I just don't like the idea of forcing them to shield tank tbh :P Killing off the armor rifter seems a little unnecessary, and besides, the tracking bonus was useful for killing off drones.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
628
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:I just don't like the idea of forcing them to shield tank tbh :P Killing off the armor rifter seems a little unnecessary, and besides, the tracking bonus was useful for killing off drones.
BAM , done. Feedback is super important, I'm only one man I can't do this alone. Are ok with the rifter getting more dps with a RoF bonus? OR should i put it back to avoid fan rage? :P
Also with the vigil, keep in mind, it's 100% bonus to damage is only on 2 turrets. The Rifter still holds a dps advantage. The vigil is just better at taking out active taking ships, or long range poping drones with it's target painters. |
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MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
630
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 12:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
More tomorrow, it's too late, need sleep
He for this post do you guys like the shorthand version of the changes better or the long hand? It's easier to see all of the different ships on one page with less to look at. I could always write up a more complex document and link it to the thread, just keep the Basics visible in this thread. |
Varg Krugar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.05.06 13:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
dont be afraid to kill your darlings(/rifters).
that being said, i dislike ships being given a too specific bonus. what makes eve great is that you dont always know how the other guy set up his ship. if the cookie cutter setup remains the only viable one, you overdid it.
if the t1 ships get to be on par with each other, but with diverse roles, the production costs should be adjusted accordingly. currently the skill lvl 3 frigates (rifter/punisher/tristan/merlin) are just hands down better than the cheaper frigs, which partly is justified by the price tag.
you cant make t1 frigs viable without shaking up the faction and t2 frigs as well, otherwise those loose their appeal. e.g. if you add an amarr t1 nos/neut frig that out-bonuses the bloodraider frig and the amarr EAC, something has to give. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
635
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 19:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Varg Krugar wrote:dont be afraid to kill your darlings(/rifters).
that being said, i dislike ships being given a too specific bonus. what makes eve great is that you dont always know how the other guy set up his ship. if the cookie cutter setup remains the only viable one, you overdid it.
if the t1 ships get to be on par with each other, but with diverse roles, the production costs should be adjusted accordingly. currently the skill lvl 3 frigates (rifter/punisher/tristan/merlin) are just hands down better than the cheaper frigs, which partly is justified by the price tag.
you cant make t1 frigs viable without shaking up the faction and t2 frigs as well, otherwise those loose their appeal. e.g. if you add an amarr t1 nos/neut frig that out-bonuses the bloodraider frig and the amarr EAC, something has to give.
Understood. I'll focus more on ship fittings. The goal here is that by leading out ships with weapon bonuses they could be fit better. but what your saying makes sense. I've got a new idea of the general balance. Also as far as killing the Rifter, I think the best way would be to leave it alone, and then if everyone complains about it being underpowered, then change it :P
But what about the base idea, of all ships having comparable HP/slots/so on. I want to make it it so the ships your going to be fighting could have any number of set ups. could you list a more examples where I have failed to do this? It would be really appreciated. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
463
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 19:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Active tanks and good for all roles don't really go together.
Just saying. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
636
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 19:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:These are t1 frigates, you cannot make them too powerful.
ok then. How about this. All ships within the same race that share the +defense focus all get the same bonuses to etiher Active tank or passive tank? I mean most ships allready have the 5% bonus to small turret damage. So why not other bonuses?
Example. Ammar
Defense bonuses 10% less cap use per armor cycle per level -active 5% armor resistances per level -passive
Combat bonuses 5% bonus to small laser damage per level -alpha 10% bonus to cap use per level for small lasers per level -general
Mobility bonuses 10% less cap use for MWDs per level -speed 5% reduction in capacitor recharge time per level -utility
Support bonuses 10%bonus to vamps and nuets effectiveness per level -Racial support 1 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per skill level. -Racial support 2
Then every ship in the fleet gets two of these bonuses. So a support damage ship gets both a defense bonus on the list and a support bonus. A Bombardment ship gets both a Damage bonus and a support bonus on the list. So instead of general ideas to follow, Ship lines could also be similar in the bonuses they give to ships. Which is already true for recon ships and other support ships. Same with many lines of battleship and such sharing bonuses with small vessels. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
636
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 20:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Active tanks and good for all roles don't really go together.
Just saying.
Well all combat ships fit a tank right? This seems to be the same direction CCP is taking it. All of the new combat frigates in the main CCP thread have a tanking bonus. These ships are suppose to fit multiple roles with the 4 ship classes I laid out in the 1st post.
This is why the ship classes overlap. you could fly the damage bonus and tank bonus ship, or you could fly the damage bonus and support bonus ship.
Not having an active tanks and good for all roles don't really go together either. Because now you're cut off from fitting an active tank fit.
There are 4 areas Damage Defense Support Mobility
Each of the ships offer two of these, pick your favorite style to go into combat with. because outside of that, at level 1 all of these ships would be on the same playing field. Or at least, that's my end goal. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
636
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 20:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Varg Krugar wrote:
you cant make t1 frigs viable without shaking up the faction and t2 frigs as well, otherwise those loose their appeal. e.g. if you add an amarr t1 nos/neut frig that out-bonuses the bloodraider frig and the amarr EAC, something has to give.
I had a question directed right at this comment. My goal with ships that share a bonus with a high tech 2 version is to make it a weaker version of said bonus. The tech 2 ship would become a beefy version of the tech 2 frigate. Tech 2 ships should have more armor/shields, bonuses, and built in resistances. If any of the bonuses I'm laying out break this idea , and they start to overtake the tech 2 brother, please make a quick list of the ships you think are getting too close to being to strong so I can focus my changes on those ships and really dig into the numbers.
Thanks! o/ |
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