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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:05:00 -
[61]
If CCP solution to brign naglfar on par with other dreads comes to be makign him horizontal I can foresee a shortage of tickets to Iceland on the next week.... :P
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Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:22:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Sapphrine on 28/04/2009 11:26:42 suggestion to balance the issue of split weapons:
Stop damage mods working on Capital modules.
Proportionally increase dread base damage / capital guns damage as appropriate.
Some form of balance for the split weapon focus needed to fit a nag.
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:25:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Sapphrine suggestion to balance the issue of split weapons:
Stop damage mods working on Capital modules.
Proportionally increase dread base damage / capital guns damage as appropriate.
Profit.
that woudl diminish even more variability in game.. that is BAAADDD...
CCP should introduce a SPLIT WEAPOSN DAMAGE MOD. 8% damage to projectiles 8% rof to projectiles 8% damage to missiles, 8% rof to missiles :)
That woudl solve thne whole universe
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King Rothgar
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:34:00 -
[64]
The nag is just characteristic of the problems minmatar ships face in general. The lack of focus on weapon type and tanking type murders them. The hurricane, tempest, typhoon, cyclone, rupture and stabber are all great examples of this. A well skilled hurricane has 25% less dps than an equal skilled harbinger, 30% less armor (if armor tanked) and lower armor resistances (big explosive/kin hole). If shield tanked it falls horribly short of the drake and ferox. It just fails other than being a really cool looking ship (hence I still fly it alot).
Minmatar can still have a mix of both shield and armor tanked ships and the option to use missiles should remain, however they need to have each individual ship better focused. The hurricane needs to be an all out armor tanker with 7 or 8 turrets as an example.
Alternatively, they can keep their "versatility" but then projectiles need a large damage buff to compensate for the split weapon disadvantage and inferior defenses. Projectiles need a buff anyways as they are the worst guns in game, but it would need to be much larger if split weapons are kept.
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King Rothgar
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:38:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Caroline Nikon
CCP should introduce a SPLIT WEAPOSN DAMAGE MOD. 8% damage to projectiles 8% rof to projectiles 8% damage to missiles, 8% rof to missiles :)
That woudl solve thne whole universe
Not a bad idea, but ship bonuses still apply to only 1 type or give 2 types just 1 bonus (effectively 1 ship bonus) and that's a big problem. And base projectile damage is still pretty fail even before you consider falloff. So it just isn't enough sadly.
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:46:00 -
[66]
Originally by: King Rothgar The nag is just characteristic of the problems minmatar ships face in general. The lack of focus on weapon type and tanking type murders them. The hurricane, tempest, typhoon, cyclone, rupture and stabber are all great examples of this. A well skilled hurricane has 25% less dps than an equal skilled harbinger, 30% less armor (if armor tanked) and lower armor resistances (big explosive/kin hole). If shield tanked it falls horribly short of the drake and ferox. It just fails other than being a really cool looking ship (hence I still fly it alot).
Minmatar can still have a mix of both shield and armor tanked ships and the option to use missiles should remain, however they need to have each individual ship better focused. The hurricane needs to be an all out armor tanker with 7 or 8 turrets as an example.
Alternatively, they can keep their "versatility" but then projectiles need a large damage buff to compensate for the split weapon disadvantage and inferior defenses. Projectiles need a buff anyways as they are the worst guns in game, but it would need to be much larger if split weapons are kept.
the problem is CCP with pass of time murdered the parallel advantages that minmatar used to have. Speed is an example that now is nearly useless. Alpha strike was completely made irrelevant in game.
IF ccp wants minmatar to not be as well focused as other races, then give them more parallel advatages. Tiny bit more cargo, tiny bit more speed, better mass ( somehow the tempest is still heavier than most battleships for example), tiny bit more capacitor. All this applied together would heal minmatar ships. But of corse this matters nothing on the naglfar sicen dreads are imobile.
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:48:00 -
[67]
Originally by: ollobrains give it a 100% jump drive range
just give us thukker issue naglfars that can jump into cyno jammed systems liek in Empyrean age novel :)
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Terra Mikael
SRIUS BISNIS
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Posted - 2009.04.28 12:09:00 -
[68]
Originally by: CCP Abathur As many of you have noticed, now that Apocrypha is out we're starting to look at several issues such as this one. I've seen several threads about this particular problem suggesting things such as "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets.
CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
Allow me to translate: FOAD ________________________________
Originally by: Lone Gunman Yes overpowered would be giving a ship with the Covert ops cloak the ability to fire say..Torpedos, now that would be overpowered. But CCP would |
Identitihasaids
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Posted - 2009.04.28 12:11:00 -
[69]
Tbh if you want to balance the naglfar just look at it.
Its so top heavy there is no way it would be able to stay verticle with the current engine placement.
Add a counterweight to the bottom of the ship, so the centre of gravity is alot more central, that would balance it.
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Mohenna
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Posted - 2009.04.28 12:43:00 -
[70]
lulz
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Gragnor
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.28 13:19:00 -
[71]
Changes requested.
- adjust siege artillery modifier upwards by 25%. - add in medium slot. - add in additional 10% cpu.
Simple ain't it.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.04.28 13:26:00 -
[72]
Originally by: CCP Abathur As many of you have noticed, now that Apocrypha is out we're starting to look at several issues such as this one. I've seen several threads about this particular problem suggesting things such as "give the ship additional turrets". Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets.
CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
wait wait wait
"Not possible"
You realize your company built this game right? You MADE the ship and gave it it's "locators".
It's not a real ship, it's a game. I'm pretty sure if anyone can make this "possible" it would be the game developers.
Could you clarify on this "Not possible"? Why is it you can create a model but not make changes to it? Did you guys fire the only person that knew how to create and adjust these models? ---------- Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf***er. |
Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.28 13:51:00 -
[73]
They probably lost the .max original 3d file for it :P
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 13:52:00 -
[74]
Originally by: CCP Abathur Such a thing is simply not possible as the ship model only has locators for two turrets.
OMG, changing models is umpossible!
I don't support extra turrets, for the pure selfish fact that Minmatar caps being guns/torps and armor/shield is the only thing keeping Caldari capital issues with shield tanking and torps on the radar... but this, want us to list the model changes that EVE has seen so far?
Sorry for knocking you when you finally do come out of the woodwork, but that excuse was just lame.
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Blazde
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.28 14:08:00 -
[75]
Originally by: CCP Abathur CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
If he hasn't already seen it can you point him to my bugreport on the Quad 3500mm Arty, the BR queue seems to be very full atm so it's still unprocessed: https://bugs.eve-online.com/mybugreports.asp?Action=View&ID=78704
The gist of it is that the Quad 3500mm arty is based on the 1200mm arty, while all other XL turrets are based on equivelent tier 3 large weapons, which means it's lacking 14% dps below what it "should" have. _
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Resalan
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Posted - 2009.04.28 15:37:00 -
[76]
its not possible = we are to lazy to modify ship model.
then add some RP stuff to justify split weapons.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.04.28 15:47:00 -
[77]
I don't wanna break it to all the EFT warriors in here, but Naglrofl ain't the only worthless dreadnaught. The larger the fight, the less viable it becomes to fly anything but Revelations.
Minmatar and Caldari use Citadel, which are extremely slow and impractical even if their DPS is ridiculous. Gallente can use railguns but they have terrible damage at range when compared to Dual Giga Beams. And in larger fights, using drones runs you into the same problem as using citadels.
The same thing happens in fleet battles, Typhoon, Raven and Dominix become pretty useless when compared with Apocalypse. Its not a fundamental flaw in the game, but it is kind of stupid to design siege ships for epic beatdowns with weapons that don't scale.
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Xelios
Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 16:10:00 -
[78]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist I don't wanna break it to all the EFT warriors in here, but Naglrofl ain't the only worthless dreadnaught. The larger the fight, the less viable it becomes to fly anything but Revelations.
That's not really true. Moros has a huge advantage vs a subcap fleet due to drones. The drones are just icing in a capital fight, and the damage difference between XL rails and beams at long range isn't that big if you use the right ammo. Moros can use Tungsten to get the same optimal range as Radio in a Rev, it's the same story at all the other ranges.
Phoenix has the best burst tank of all the dreads, it's not uncommon to see them take over a million damage compared to the average 700k or so for the armor tanked dreads. This burst tank is actually a nice advantage, most armor tanked dreads don't even get the chance to cap out before they're put down. The torps are incredibly slow, but deliver a lot of alpha damage when they hit. Put them on the secondary instead of the primary and they're actually pretty effective.
All 3 do certain things better than the others, the only one that has absolutely nothing going for it is the Nag.
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Asterisk Grat
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.04.28 16:58:00 -
[79]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
CCP Chronotis spent a good part of today looking into the 'Naglrofl'. The results should bring the ship back into line with its counterparts. I'll point him here tomorrow.
It can't Roll On the Floor Laughing because it's vertical, get your facts straight!
Btw, it's nice to hear that dev's thing naglfar is a joke :) I'll be waiting for some nice boosts, and look at assembly hall section, some very good posts there as well.
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Hlidskjalf
Novus Aevum Transport and Industries Novus Aevum
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Posted - 2009.04.28 17:08:00 -
[80]
Essentially, on the subject of tanking, the Revelation, Phoenix and Moros have a specific tank in mind, whereas the Naglfar can do both. That may have been someone's idea of versatility, but how much versatility does one get from a three kilometer spike who's sole design is to shoot at things that don't move. Perhaps in a time gone by they may have had a use for this versatility, but when a 4 weapon Dread does worse than a 3 weapon Dread, and can't tank as much, yet that 4 weapon dread needs more training to operate, then it's surely time for change.
That in mind, my point to make for CCP is that in other Minmatar ships, speed and quick reactions are the name of the game, both in offense (Vaga, Jaguar, Stabber) and defense (Rapier, Huggin), but the speed and tactical element just can't be applied to previously mentioned three kilometer high spike.
Perhaps you can't remodel the Naglfar to add the next slot, maybe you won't. Either way, at least put the Minmatar racial strengths on their Dread. High burst tanking shields, massive alpha. Versatility is nice, but not on a class thats only good for one thing.
High slots unchanged (due to 3rd turret being impossible) Add a mid slot Lose a low slot 10% Capital Projectile Damage per skill level 7.5% shield boost amount per level
Give people a reason to fly the best of the Minmatar! - - - - - - - - - What could possibly make me walk into your gate camp to get to low sec, unless my Retriever has a doomsday device on it...
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RedSplat
RennTech
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Posted - 2009.04.28 17:17:00 -
[81]
Nagalbond please. Secretly MirrorGod. Apparently
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Blazde
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.28 17:26:00 -
[82]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Minmatar and Caldari use Citadel, which are extremely slow and impractical even if their DPS is ridiculous. Gallente can use railguns but they have terrible damage at range when compared to Dual Giga Beams. And in larger fights, using drones runs you into the same problem as using citadels.
The same thing happens in fleet battles, Typhoon, Raven and Dominix become pretty useless when compared with Apocalypse. Its not a fundamental flaw in the game, but it is kind of stupid to design siege ships for epic beatdowns with weapons that don't scale.
Rails are just fine at range. The only thing that really makes people prefer Revs over Moroses is the somewhat metarey factor of not having to remember to reload, and not having to do it in lag. There are healthy differences between the two in terms of drones, cap use, cargo bay, but it's just not true that nothing but Revelations are viable, no matter what range you use.
Citadel torps are a big headache though. I suspect when dreads were added it just wasn't forseen that we'd have 100 vs 100 dread battles, at considerable ranges. The design of them was much more about solving the problem of pos being unkillable, so big ass torpedoes seemed cool. I can't see a good way to 'fix' Citadel torps just as if the Raven was the only Caldari bs I couldn't see a way to make it viable in fleet battles.
The only solution I see is to give every race a second tier dreadnaught with the Caldari and Matari ones being capable of all-turret fits. They'd be more expensive, but have slightly better stats, so it'd be up to Caldari pilots whether a Phoenix was good enough for their needs or if they need the rail variant. Ditto for Minmatar. Quite what you'd do with Gallente and Amarr tier 2 dreads I dunno. Maybe treat the Moros as a drone dread, give it a range/control bonus to (sentry) drones and remove the rail bonus, giving the new one turret bonuses instead. Then make the new Amarr one some kind of horrible too-powerful-for-it's-own-good Abaddon like monster with horrendous capacitor issues Good for suicide ganking and not much else. Or whatever. _
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VoiceInTheDesert
Zebra Corp Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.04.28 17:48:00 -
[83]
In my opinion, this issue is more about citadel torps than the Nag itself. Half of it's weapons work alright (not great, but alright) and half are next to useless.
Fix the torps first. See how much fixing the nag needs after that.
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40 Cent
Evoke. Ev0ke
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Posted - 2009.04.28 17:54:00 -
[84]
or introduce split damage mods :-)
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Odhinn Vinlandii
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 19:12:00 -
[85]
Missile Launchers are not guns, they are absolutely contrary to the Minmatar credo of '...more guns.'
Minmatar should be armor tanked and turrets only. ..why would flying chunks of metal shooting rocket propelled large chunks of metal have shields anyways?
Eliminate all split weapon systems, make Minmatar all turrets. Even the stealth bomber, allow the Hound to strap on 1400mm artillery instead.
This will solve some problems. Now buff projectile turrets and make t2 ammo worth using.
Oh.. keep the current speed nerf, but reset the previous seven.
---
CCP, it's better to do things right the first time than to suck a turd back up your arse to try again later.
Redo the models.
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Luixia
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Posted - 2009.04.28 19:39:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Luixia on 28/04/2009 19:40:51
I have seen many posts on this topic and I am finally annoyed enough by it, you know why CCP doesnt care to fix it, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. its called a different perspective and if you cant understand the function of the ship its your problem. See capitals arent a SOLO pwn machine as people think they are, maybe you should consider this, the minmitar carrier offers both armor + shield capital repair bonus, and if you setup your Nag to have full damage with a buffer tank and support it with a carrier (repair it as it comes out of seige, then reseige) its one of the most powerful pair of ships in the game. As a tank is one thing but being able to kill your opposition before they can kill you is another.
Why cant people stop being so closed minded and start being creative. instead of point out what i can not do, why not consider what i can do.
I for one (which my word problem means nothing to the ton of whiners) pentiton to keep the ship the way it is.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT DONT FLY IT. SIMPLE! |
Odhinn Vinlandii
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 20:34:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Luixia Edited by: Luixia on 28/04/2009 19:40:51
I have seen many posts on this topic and I am finally annoyed enough by it, you know why CCP doesnt care to fix it, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. its called a different perspective and if you cant understand the function of the ship its your problem. See capitals arent a SOLO pwn machine as people think they are, maybe you should consider this, the minmitar carrier offers both armor + shield capital repair bonus, and if you setup your Nag to have full damage with a buffer tank and support it with a carrier (repair it as it comes out of seige, then reseige) its one of the most powerful pair of ships in the game. As a tank is one thing but being able to kill your opposition before they can kill you is another.
Why cant people stop being so closed minded and start being creative. instead of point out what i can not do, why not consider what i can do.
I for one (which my word problem means nothing to the ton of whiners) pentiton to keep the ship the way it is.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT DONT FLY IT. SIMPLE!
Open minded is a slave mentality. Free men strive for perfection.
Bugs, flaws and imbalance are not a chance to be 'creative.' They are problems that need to be resolved.
You are one of those submissives who instead of rejecting what is bad in life, you instead learned to love the smell of ****..
'Open minded' ..like a toilet. Shame on you.. buck up and be a man.
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.28 20:40:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Luixia Edited by: Luixia on 28/04/2009 19:40:51
I have seen many posts on this topic and I am finally annoyed enough by it, you know why CCP doesnt care to fix it, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. its called a different perspective and if you cant understand the function of the ship its your problem. See capitals arent a SOLO pwn machine as people think they are, maybe you should consider this, the minmitar carrier offers both armor + shield capital repair bonus, and if you setup your Nag to have full damage with a buffer tank and support it with a carrier (repair it as it comes out of seige, then reseige) its one of the most powerful pair of ships in the game. As a tank is one thing but being able to kill your opposition before they can kill you is another.
Why cant people stop being so closed minded and start being creative. instead of point out what i can not do, why not consider what i can do.
I for one (which my word problem means nothing to the ton of whiners) pentiton to keep the ship the way it is.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT DONT FLY IT. SIMPLE!
so You won 't complain if we manage to nerf all the ships you like to fly? errr.. I tough so.. so shut up and go back to your hole. We are trying to improve the game here.
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Nitch Bigga
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Posted - 2009.04.28 20:50:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Luixia Edited by: Luixia on 28/04/2009 19:40:51
I have seen many posts on this topic and I am finally annoyed enough by it, you know why CCP doesnt care to fix it, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. its called a different perspective and if you cant understand the function of the ship its your problem. See capitals arent a SOLO pwn machine as people think they are, maybe you should consider this, the minmitar carrier offers both armor + shield capital repair bonus, and if you setup your Nag to have full damage with a buffer tank and support it with a carrier (repair it as it comes out of seige, then reseige) its one of the most powerful pair of ships in the game. As a tank is one thing but being able to kill your opposition before they can kill you is another.
Why cant people stop being so closed minded and start being creative. instead of point out what i can not do, why not consider what i can do.
I for one (which my word problem means nothing to the ton of whiners) pentiton to keep the ship the way it is.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT DONT FLY IT. SIMPLE!
Do you even fly dreads?! No amount of buffer will save you for a whole siege cycle to have the all-mighty nids save you after you come out of siege. No one is asking to make the Nag a "SOLO pwn machine", just to balance it. Give it a dedicated tank, either more CPU for a shield tank, or another low slot and make it an armor tanker. ThatÆs just addressing the tank and ehp issue, IÆm not going to get into the whole "why capital projectiles suck discussion", as it well documented, and you can read about it from the guy a few posts up.
Quote: Why cant people stop being so closed minded and start being creative. instead of point out what i can not do, why not consider what i can do.
And please show me one thing it can do that any of the other dreads canÆt do better.
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Xelios
Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 20:50:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Luixia
I have seen many posts on this topic and I am finally annoyed enough by it, you know why CCP doesnt care to fix it, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT.
There are over 100 votes in the top 3 balancing issues that disagree with you. It was voted the number 2 issue in fact, second only to projectile weapons which affect the Nag too.
Originally by: Luixia
See capitals arent a SOLO pwn machine as people think they are, maybe you should consider this, the minmitar carrier offers both armor + shield capital repair bonus, and if you setup your Nag to have full damage with a buffer tank and support it with a carrier (repair it as it comes out of seige, then reseige) its one of the most powerful pair of ships in the game.
Or you could do the same thing with one of the other dreads and be 10x as effective as you are with the Nag. I guarantee you a Revelation or Moros with just 3 damage mods will give you more dps than a Naglfar with 6 damage mods, nevermind the fact that you still have to have room for a tank. You know a buffer tank isn't even possible on a dread, there's no xlarge shield extenders or xlarge armor plates. Try to fit just hardeners on it and watch as a pos gunner has a field day with your dread during its 10 minute siege cycle.
I get the feeling you've never even flown a dread before.
Originally by: Luixia
As a tank is one thing but being able to kill your opposition before they can kill you is another.
You will never, ever get in a 1 vs 1 with a dread. What will happen is you'll be called primary by 30 dreads and, having a ridiculous all gank fitting, you'll last just long enough to fire one volley before you die. Meanwhile your carriers will sit there, helpless as they watch you die in the middle of your siege cycle. It's a terrible idea.
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