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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2009.04.24 16:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: HawkBlade
So my addition towards rebalancing: Invention time lengthening (at least modules) and nerf T2 BPO's.
This would temporarily ease matters, but the end result would just be more people entering the T2 production market until the pre-nerf production rate was hit; the increased competition would then drive prices down almost to current levels. I think it's too early to say whether action is necessary - the limited supply of moon minerals already acts as a balancing factor, but it takes a while for the market to react. As the player population increases, I expect this to become more noticeable.
Having seen the extent of your T2 BPO collection, however, I applaud you on the strength of your conviction that they need to be nerfed.
Also,
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Ji Sama i agree +5 vorpal longswords
Dear sweet jumping baphomet, has someone else player Gemstone 3 before too?
Actually, I'd never heard of Gemstone 3; I recognised the term from Progress Quest
--- 20:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Kitchie
Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.24 16:36:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Ji Sama i agree +5 vorpal longswords
Dear sweet jumping baphomet, has someone else player Gemstone 3 before too?
Actually, I'd never heard of Gemstone 3; I recognised the term from Progress Quest
Is everyone here totally from the internet age or does anyone else remember AD&D?
Dynasty Banking - DBANK |
Bad Bobby
Ugly Toys Zzz
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Posted - 2009.04.24 16:39:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Ji Sama i agree +5 vorpal longswords
Dear sweet jumping baphomet, has someone else player Gemstone 3 before too?
Actually, I'd never heard of Gemstone 3; I recognised the term from Progress Quest
For those of us ancient beardies, Vorpal Blades were a D&D thing and from a computer game point of view I seem to recall Essex MUD (yay!) had them too, although that could be my memory... oh the old days DEC hosted games with serious PvP, fingers of death and swamping treasure.
...Damn, I'm old.
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Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:12:00 -
[34]
i can see the drama wont stop untill i the master of md explain what i meant with my imbalanced and overpowered troll...
the vorpal blade is from d%d as bobby aka bad bobby said..
and since im DUNGEON MASTER now...
we will proceed with focusing on the OP! This is a signature not related to EVE |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:32:00 -
[35]
Apparently they go back even further than that... --- 20:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.04.24 19:22:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Apparently they go back even further than that...
Its funny but the gemstone reference actually works on topic here.
In gemstone, it was original that the only way you could acquire a + item was through the enchantment of a wizard. This was a laborious process that took a level 20 wizard(s) some hours to complete and literally days to cook and often had astronomical failure rates until the mechanics of it all were worked out. Because level 20 took literally forever to grind and it was on AOL which at the time was a pay to play per hour basis..... well suffice to say skilled wizards that could create even just 3x or 4x stuff were in short supply. You were also limited to one character per AOL account as well if I remember correctly.
Any fast forward a few years to when AOL goes monthly subscription and drops the hourly. Gemstone gets an influx of wizards reaching 20th to 30th (level cap) levels and by this time and the time process is negated because now you could literally stay on as long as your modem sustained connection, if you aren't using a +4 item by the time you hit level 20.. well you're pretty much hampered because all level design is made around the fact that you would have these items. What this meant was that all the new content that was added in this era was designed around the idea that the player would be sporting both 4x sword and shield. This may seem like a small amount, but in gemstone the critical table had yet to recieve an overhaul, meaning if you missed a roll and were hit, even something as small as a 10 point difference on the roll could mean a death strike to your character (which possible meant real XP loss and time loss).
Anyway...Fast forward some years later after they have gone to the web. By this time the game has expanded to include level 50 and beyond at some points. Part of the expansion of the game are actually items that are raffled off (seeing a pattern here?) and some of these items offer very specific combat bonuses. Things like permanent spell enchants, 6x items, etc... eventually it gets to the point where if you're not sporting 6x gear at level 50, you might as well hang up your wizard hat and coat (sorcerer in my case, but their plight and eventualy nerf bat is another story which equally applies to EVE as well)
Add to this issue that there literally is no money sink in the game. Sure there are items that can be purchased through NPCs, healing, etc.. but this palls in comparison to the amount of gold that can be brought in by a single character at level +15 in the game. Hell I remember my earlier days as a sorcerer in the catacombs under the crypt storming wights with other sorcerers and we'd literally be pulling in a metric ton of treasure.
So what ended up happening is that the mundane items, those 4x and less actually devalued to the point of worthlessness while your raffled items or items which had no source outside of paying to go to an event in game and happening to win it, or buying it at inflated prices through the GM stores spiraled to the point of impossibility in attainment. This meant that new players, or characters upon reaching level 30-50 (depending on your character type... bards will understand) there only shot at the end game meant having to pay to play (again.. seeing a pattern here?) |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.04.24 19:23:00 -
[37]
There are also examples where small shifts in gameplay have dramatic shifts in prices on items as well. During my tenure in the game there, I was witness to the sorcerer spell list actually becoming a full reality. When I started you only had at most... 8 spells to work with in the circle out of a possible 20 that should have been there. One of the main combat spells, 702 or mana disrupt was the mainstay of combat. It only cost 2 mana, and at higher levels a single character could have upwards of 130 mana. 60+ casts in a single combat assuming no regen. Compare this to wizards who had to scale their damage dealers as their mana costs increased. The difference however was that wizards had access to warmth, increased mana regen. This increased their combat viability to pretty comparable to wizards whose main damage dealer was 906 (fire spell) and had the same crit potential as 702 (which could literally blow heads off in a single hit). Given the random nature of the rolls it worked out pretty well.
...until some bright moron in the game mechanics department decided that 702 needed to be toned down and 720 needed to be the main damage dealer at high levels. It was a nice theory, the problem was because sorcerers didn't have easy access to warmth, you would actually fall behind most other casters in the damage department. There were however in game items which had permanent enchants of warmth. valuable indeed already these items went from one price, to quadruple in cost on the player market within a week after the design change for sorcerers was implemented.
I'm sure you're seeing the parrells here already so I'll stop with the reminiscing.
Suffice to say, Im honestly seeing some of the same mistakes with T3, that I did back then when Simultronics went to GM run festivals. |
Dr Silkworth
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Posted - 2009.04.24 20:05:00 -
[38]
If there are problems, what are the barriers to bribery working as a balancing factor? If you don't like the word you could call it kickbacks. Could even be a slotting prorated fee. A t3 wh alliance pays off a zero space t2 producer to hold down production on old t2. The bribe makes up for the losses while justifying a switch of the slots/reactors etc to a more profitable t3 production for both parties. This could be a mutually beneficial cooperation with regards to reactions and such? t2 supply goes down and both parties benefit in the long run by high t3 demand and also the demand for its needed components of t3.
In lieu of that we could just do the old fashion war thing and just blow t3 facilities out of wormholes to keep it from flooding the system with something we don't understand. Who knows what kind of problems t3 is going to bring with it. It is Alien technology, perhaps we are not ready for it and should just destroy it and the profiteers lining up behind it. It could be radioactive or something, an invisible game killer. Let t1 empire align with t2 zero space to destroy the vorpal threat!!.
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
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Posted - 2009.04.25 10:57:00 -
[39]
The balancing of whether to allow things to become obsolete and thus reflect real life, or to let things have a more status quo like feel with no development technology wise, like in most rpg setting, is really a hard one.
There are benefits and drawbacks on both, but I must say that with current mechanics I would tend to balance a bit towards the more static model. This is mainly because the mere cluttering of items existing ingame becoming worthless is imho bad for the game-economy.
Some gradual loss of value would be acceptable, but in present format EVE items seem to suffer from inflation. There is to much new stuff coming in and its value/usability tend to decrease. We even have huge amounts of items not even used for anything at all.
A good strategy for handling these things would be to consider having stations and agents spawn demands and supply in a more dynamic fashion. The current static model is not able to help clean up things. I know this is moving a bit off topic, but the ideas are interdependent.
If the agents could ask for a mixture of items to complete a mission type, that could be really useful. Also a more dynamic payout of bonus items would be a great way to improve gameplay and "excitement". The boring scheme like repetition of current agent system really is a bit below ccp standard.
Getting this uncertainty element into the game actually all over could make the game more interesting. This also goes well in hand with the mentioned player limited BPO suggestion. If these could have different special demands like npc goods, and production material variation it could in some ways improve the business. A BPO as a rule should not be publically known. So if the demands could be different and secret this would ad a great deal of positive uncertainty.
- Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.25 12:40:00 -
[40]
haha kazzac thats just epic... really nice turnaround... gj!
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
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Posted - 2009.04.25 15:36:00 -
[41]
lolz..
It sounds like Kazzac was grinding when gfx bits where single digits :) - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.04.26 01:17:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania lolz..
It sounds like Kazzac was grinding when gfx bits where single digits :)
I've popped the eyes out of so many lava golems I could prolly still write up a custom hunting script for it. |
Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.04.26 04:05:00 -
[43]
Kazz and I just had a great walk down GemStone 3 memory lane. Anyone else that wants to can drop me a line on Sir Elliot or AlaMaLacha.
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Ricdic
Caldari Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.26 04:15:00 -
[44]
Caleb is like the non-crazy version of stapler dude
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.26 05:06:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania lolz..
It sounds like Kazzac was grinding when gfx bits where single digits :)
I've popped the eyes out of so many lava golems I could prolly still write up a custom hunting script for it.
I knew you were a sorcerer! Your sort deserved everything it got! Bunch of homicidal maniacs, all of you! I didn't get in on the beginning of gemstone when it was on AOL, (I was playing one of the other AOL hourly games, Darkness Falls) but I switched to it later on when it moved to the monthly-subscription server. At that point it already had a lvl 50 cap and people were min-maxing their characters, rolling their lowest stats into their highest-use attributes. I had a roguish fellow who would ambush your right leg from the shadows and leave you to limp back to the empaths if you looked at him the wrong way. :)
I do remember the balance issues you described, and I too have been having some similar thoughts about T3. Galt help us all if T3 ever becomes as cheap as CCP apparently wants it to be. You'd literally have to fly it or bring 3x the numbers.
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.26 05:11:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Petyr Baelich on 26/04/2009 05:10:59
Originally by: Ricdic Caleb is like the non-crazy version of stapler dude
Fixed it for you.
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