Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Iski Collector
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 05:50:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Ricdic The MD 'regulars' aren't responsible for making people's decisions to invest.
I completely support your sentiment that the blame for a poor investment should lie solely with the investor, but I think you're glossing over the influence that the 'regulars' have in this forum. If I launched an IPO on this forum right now, I'd be met with two questions: what's your reputation, and where's the audit to prove you can do what you're claiming to do? I would be entirely reliant on those with existing MD reputation (the 'regulars') to answer for me. I could have a stellar investment history, but it wouldn't mean much without the approval of the MD 'regulars'. Conversely, as illustrated with Armoured C, someone with a questionable history, but the approval of a few MD 'regulars', gets funded. Like it or not, the opinions of MD 'regulars' carries extra weight. That extra weight carries additional responsibility, which stinks for everyone involved.
I'll say this for a third time, since I know that I'm hitting on a sensitive topic: I'm not criticizing any individual, just the system. The 'regulars' are doing a good job in a system that is inherently unbalanced.
|
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 06:37:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Iski Collector
Quote: To elaborate: Either side of the spectrum are nothing but trolls. They troll the regulars as "elitist" because there is essentially no defense against foundless accusations. Then they troll the regulars when something goes wrong because somehow we're gods that were asleep at the wheel.
Just to make things clear, I am in NO WAY accusing any of the MD 'regulars' of failing and I thoroughly encourage their continued critical review of all public offerings. The failure, as I see it, is in Eve's investment system as currently structured. There is a tremendous amount of emphasis placed on "trust" and "reputation", directly leading to abnormal weight being given to those with such reputation (the MD regulars). As a result, the regulars end up being "elitist snobs" or "gods asleep at the wheel" - ie, always open to anonymous critiscm simply because of their position. This isn't fair to the regulars, and it definitely doesn't provide for strong investment analysis.
The solution? We need to stop assuming that the current IPO/bond system works well. CCP is by far the most responsive and player-centric MMO on the market - we should be taking full advantage of their willingness to make the game better. Improved investor tools would go a long way towards making scammers work a little harder than Armoured C did and would go even further in encouraging more players to invest in IPO/bond offerings.
CCP have stated on several occasions that they will NOT be working on anything in this area. At least not any time soon.
The fact is that the current system is about as good as it's going to get.
As has been shown in the past, it does not matter how good your reputation is, there will still be scams. (see FastLearner/FuryBank or Ionia/FRPB,LMTA,etc) Scams will always occur unless CCP takes on the role of 'IPO police' and that's simply not going to happen.
Quote:
To illustrate: stealing a candy bar might not be a serious criminal act, but it becomes a little more significant if you steal the candy bar while being watched by a pair of police officers. It becomes even more significant when those same police officers then downplay the event by saying "oh, it's just a candy bar", instead of responding with an appropriate level of concern. I honestly expected a more mature response from at least some of the people in this thread.
Unlike your example, this is somthing that no one can do anything about after it's occured. Given that single fact, the options of the police in your example are to
a) do nothing b) rant at the kid c) say 'There was a whole shop's worth of goods there and you took one candy bar' Oh, I see he was proving a point about it being so easy. Lets see what we can do about improving security... f. all.
I don't know the numbers but people almost never scam with their first public offering. It's almost always an expansion or a subsequent, much larger scheme that they scam with.
My point is, it is trivial to gain someone's trust given enough time. Both in eve and RL. Once you've gained it, there is then nothing other than your conscience to stop you abusing that trust. (and laws, justice system, etc for some RL cases)
As investors, there is nothing we can do about this other than being careful about where we place our trust.
Now, if you agree with the above statement then perhaps you can see that these small, 1 bil or less IPOs, are nothing more than testing the water. They are about proving that you can run a business and make money with a small amount of isk before moving on to larger things. It also increases the amount of time a scammer has to invest before getting to a big payday.
The fact that Armoured C got so little with a month or two of MD involvement indicates to me that the system works ok. Sure, he could have taken a little more and perhaps some people were too quick to trust too much but they will learn, just like we all did. --------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 06:50:00 -
[63]
I think we can add one small detail in this thread while its still the talk of the day..
Since ccp isn't showing much focus on our little niche, I think we are left to handle these developments a bit ourselves. I myself have been here long enough to know that whining and begging or downright screaming about it wont help, so I suggest we all pull together and focus on where we want secondary markets to develop.
One thing that is already noted in this thing is the dependency on trust and reputation. This is in part true, but I think that is to some extend true in the parallel called RL.
A few things that will help this imo is if people are more willing to interact socially as well as professionally. (yeah yeah stating the obvious)
I am going to do a wild claim here. Linking ingame characters to your real life persona could help in some of these trust issues. Just like participation in the CSM release this to public knowledge, so the MD could benefit from more of this open relation policy.
Personally I stand by disclosing this information at least in a select and controlled manner.
We could also use a common system of ebay like nature so the datamining wasn't so extensive. In that regard a group effort to gather information and risk eval the MDs old and new alike would be a useful thing.
- Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Iski Collector
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 08:13:00 -
[64]
Quote: My point is, it is trivial to gain someone's trust given enough time. Both in eve and RL. Once you've gained it, there is then nothing other than your conscience to stop you abusing that trust. (and laws, justice system, etc for some RL cases)
As investors, there is nothing we can do about this other than being careful about where we place our trust.
This is key to my fascination with this thread. Having worked for years as a retail-level stockbroker, I'm quite familiar with establishing financial trust. Try selling $100k bond notes with a cold call. You'll learn two things - that trust is based on a lot of insubstantial crap, and that once you get someone's trust, they'll believe anything you say. Take Bernie Madoff - he ran one of the world's greatest Ponzi scheme's based on little more than trust. However, his clients were exclusively individual investors who were willing to buy on nothing more than trust and promises of a huge return. Institutional investors (banks, hedge funds, etc) all looked at Madoff's fund, did the appropriate due diligence, and refused to buy in. This is why I don't buy into the "there is nothing we can do about this other than being careful about where we place our trust" comment. The RL financial community learned a long time ago that money is worth more than trust, and I'm astonished that the Eve MD community hasn't caught up yet.
On a more positive note, why couldn't some in-game mechanics be used to improve the investor experience? All the basic components of a stock market are already in-game. It wouldn't take much to develop a functional stock market, which could have vast implications for the IPO/bond market. How about contract options that allow for better asset lockdowns? Or coding that allows you to be a member of multiple corps, allowing for investors to more accurately monitor their investments? I'm sure that many ideas have already been discussed, but what's the harm in continuing to push CCP to improve the system?
Quote: The fact that Armoured C got so little with a month or two of MD involvement indicates to me that the system works ok. Sure, he could have taken a little more and perhaps some people were too quick to trust too much but they will learn, just like we all did.
Very very good point.
|
Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 08:34:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Brock Nelson on 25/04/2009 08:34:55 What's really fascinating about this scam is that someone came here, spent a month or two to establish trust and then create a scam that's only pocket change for some of us...
Even scammers should know that there's a max asking in a bond/ipo scam and even a min asking.
"Is 50 billion too much to ask for, even after spending a month in MD?" "Is 600 million too little to make it worthwhile?"
Blueprint Store |
Bad Bobby
Ugly Toys Zzz
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 11:41:00 -
[66]
A scam of epic proportions that will shake the EVE economy to it's very core.
|
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 11:47:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Iski Collector
Originally by: Ricdic The MD 'regulars' aren't responsible for making people's decisions to invest.
I completely support your sentiment that the blame for a poor investment should lie solely with the investor, but I think you're glossing over the influence that the 'regulars' have in this forum. If I launched an IPO on this forum right now, I'd be met with two questions: what's your reputation, and where's the audit to prove you can do what you're claiming to do? I would be entirely reliant on those with existing MD reputation (the 'regulars') to answer for me. I could have a stellar investment history, but it wouldn't mean much without the approval of the MD 'regulars'. Conversely, as illustrated with Armoured C, someone with a questionable history, but the approval of a few MD 'regulars', gets funded. Like it or not, the opinions of MD 'regulars' carries extra weight. That extra weight carries additional responsibility, which stinks for everyone involved.
I'll say this for a third time, since I know that I'm hitting on a sensitive topic: I'm not criticizing any individual, just the system. The 'regulars' are doing a good job in a system that is inherently unbalanced.
you bring in a fair point sir! the system is flawed... but its all we have...
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
|
Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 12:13:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Iski Collector As illustrated with Armoured C, someone with a questionable history, but the approval of a few MD 'regulars', gets funded.
I think I'm missing a part of the story here. Where was this approval of Armoured C's offering that you're describing?
Looking at the top of this thread, it looks like Armoured C's offering was fully funded within 20 minutes, before any 'MD regular' posted with his or her main. Indeed, it looks like it was revealed as a scam (after roughly 2 h) before any post by a 'MD regular', too. Was the vetting and approval of this offering in some other forum? In some thread I missed?
|
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 12:37:00 -
[69]
i think he is talking about the acceptance in the scc-lounge and in general here on the forum.. people where more focused to get him to stop with the spamming that smelling if he was a scammer...
also... some are saying that some have hurt feelings or what ever.. i have personally talked to atleast 4 of the investors in this scam, and all rejected my offer to partially of fully refund their losses. as i am one of those he liked to chat with etc. all have also said that this loss wasnt a problem, and i believe them... smallest scam ever... really was below RC imo!
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
|
HawkBlade
Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 13:24:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Iski Collector As illustrated with Armoured C, someone with a questionable history, but the approval of a few MD 'regulars', gets funded.
Originally by: Thoraemond I think I'm missing a part of the story here. Where was this approval of Armoured C's offering that you're describing?
This is the closest thing to a recommendation that I know of. Mind you if someone failed to read (a very common thing around here) and acted as if he was recommended by any one, or more, regulars... then the phrase " a fool and his money are soon parted" comes to mind. PS: For as trolled as I am and as hostile as I am, I'm very careful who I recommend because of the lemming factor. But equally, I can't let my game play be dictated by the expectations of sheeple.
|
|
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 14:02:00 -
[71]
This is a funny thread!!!!
I notice that people now invest without asking any questions or doing any research. If people want to invest like that let them. They lose their ISK, don't pay em back. Make them learn the investing lessons the hard way.
The OP has been around for about 1 month with some really poor posts and comments, had a pretty poor plan, and you all jump in anyway.
Congrats OP you scammed nearly 2 months worth of game time. What a waste.
If you scooped up 600M ISK in such a short space of time, you should have been able to get a couple of bil easily. You shot your bolt for pittance.
I can barely be bothered anymore on the current float of IPO's or even comment about them. I generally only invest in people I know.
|
Johnny Rockefeller
Builders League United
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 14:09:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Iski Collector Like it or not, the opinions of MD 'regulars' carries extra weight.
This is very true. Often when I come across a long-ish thread that I don't feel like reading all the way through, I'll just scroll through all the unknowns' posts and read just what's said by the regulars. You guys have a lot of influence whether you know it or not.
Not that that's any excuse for people who don't make their own decisions.
|
Pixie Rollins
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 14:36:00 -
[73]
For all the people who say that the presence of scams indicates that the system is flawed, or imperfect, or any other rubbish ū Your expectations are unrealistically high!
If anything, scamming keeps trading and investment realistic; if you havenĘt noticed, itĘs ubiquitous in rl. Caveat emptor, due diligence and all the other good stuff. Anyone who expects CCP to fight scammers shouldnĘt be an investor.
Also, i tend to agree with iskmaker, while the system is currently working fine, it could be developed further. Things like options and forward contracts come to mind.
|
Ms Delerium
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 15:38:00 -
[74]
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I find this funny cause I invested just some thousands when you did ur 1st operation, then some random guy offered 20 millions to me for the corp shares and I accepted.
So I made 20 millions out of this
|
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 16:08:00 -
[75]
Iski and Pixie got me thinking its a funny fact that the PLASTIC WRAP in contracts would be perfect for a lockdown improvement. It has no real use in contracts, since you can inspect them.
Another thing would be for ccp to add the feature of contracts traded also impacted market price graphs and history if it was single item contracts ofc. Or in some way grant us access to a db containing the history of trades. Transparency is usefull, and then adding a functionality to handle stocks, bonds etc would be there by simply being able to place the bearables in the contract.
- Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Capt Nightmare
Gallente TarNec
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 17:26:00 -
[76]
No big deal here, stop pretending you are a conqueror of countries!
I lold (Because falcons)
-
Join the channel "SCC-Lounge" if you like talking about business and trade :)
-- |
Ms Delerium
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 17:37:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Mr Bigshot I don't know if there has ever been a scam on this low of a scale in the history of EVE. I'm pretty sure individual Jita local-spam scams rake in more than this. This paper gets an F for trivial hogwash. No one had any more than 150m exposure to you, and you write like the estate-lawyer of a deceased Nigerian prince. Congratz. I hear goonies are recruiting scammers of your calibre for only 1B entry fee. They are desperate for your talents.
But he can pay 2 months of gameplay now
Armoured I suggest you to pay game with isk for the following 2 months and save up those 30 bucks, this will close some big mouths.
|
SencneS
Amarr Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 17:37:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Iski Collector However, I would point out that, despite what some people are trying to claim now, Armoured C did not simply get chump-change handouts. His IPO was published on the forums and met with considerable scrutiny and ridicule, but was eventually fully funded (overfunded, iirc). As I said earlier, the big story isn't the amount of the scam, but that he accomplished it while following the MD forum IPO template.
To illustrate: stealing a candy bar might not be a serious criminal act, but it becomes a little more significant if you steal the candy bar while being watched by a pair of police officers. It becomes even more significant when those same police officers then downplay the event by saying "oh, it's just a candy bar", instead of responding with an appropriate level of concern. I honestly expected a more mature response from at least some of the people in this thread.
While maturity does go a long way there really is a comedy factor here.
1) Armoured C will never get public funding again because of this thread. His reptuation is shot. 2) It was the smallest scam I know of, that has happened here on MD at least.
When I saw the Title I though, oh what now someone ran off with 10b or something? When I read it was 600Million I laughed so loud at work, my Boss came over and asked what was so funny.
Regardless of peoples posting here and the "This is chump change" type posting it doesn't stop the fact he wrecked his reputation, his standing, and became an outcast over 600 million ISK.
Despite what you may think, I would bet a large amount of regulars or "Elitists" wouldn't bat an eye at 600mil ISK. Investing 600mil to most regulars in here is not an issue. The simple fact is, this IS chump change to a vast majority of regulars.
As for following the template, this is not a story either, as people want to get ISK from the venture capitalists, they need to run though the hoops, go the dance, and accept with undeniable will what the "Cops of MD" want. Once that is completed, they are entitled to whatever collect.
While someone going though the motions to get ISK is required, that doesn't stop the fact the he went though all that trouble. Did everything needed, built up some respect, and trust then SQUANDER it on 600million ISK.
The story is really how someone did all the work, wrecked his reputation he spent time building, went thought the gauntlet, and came out a PATHETIC 600mil ahead.
Amarr for Life |
ebonyivory
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 18:36:00 -
[79]
This is really funny
loads of marketeers spamming we didnt want that isk anyways is so delicous
reap what you sow
|
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 19:00:00 -
[80]
Originally by: ebonyivory This is really funny
loads of marketeers spamming we didnt want that isk anyways is so delicous
reap what you sow
whats really funny is all the nameless alts spewing hate over 600 million..
xabier was grand this is just meh.... only real damage he did was to his reputation...
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
|
|
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 19:35:00 -
[81]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/04/2009 19:39:25
Originally by: SencneS
1) Armoured C will never get public funding again because of this thread. His reptuation is shot.
You hear that Armoured C? You have to create another alt if you want to scam here again. And let that be a lesson to you!
Black Sun Empire |
HawkBlade
Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 19:54:00 -
[82]
Originally by: SencneS 1) Armoured C will never get public funding again because of this thread. His reptuation is shot.
Originally by: YouGotRipped You hear that Armoured C? You have to create another alt if you want to scam here again. And let that be a lesson to you!
Indeed.Two months of gameplay for One month's smoozing. Not the greatest of returns but heck, double my money each time and I'd call that a damn fine win every time. I don't like thieves mind you but this one is different then Xabier because of it's minuscule nature. I'm inclined to believe that this idea about a Uni report is true... just not about scamming itself per se. However I could easily see doing a psychology report on "Betrayal Reactions" and using Eve as the means to do it. Do I think this is what happened? I dunno but then I don't really care. For curiosity's sake I'd be interested to know the truth but unlike cats and fools I can live with unsatisfied curiosities. Plenty of other things to think, and worry, about out there then this. I'm kind of aghast that this thread is so long but I'm enjoying the outrage and the outrageous in equal measure. The trolls, not so much.
|
Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 20:48:00 -
[83]
To be truthful, I can't believe that anyone would invest in Armoured C. And yet, they did.
|
RJ Nobel
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 21:00:00 -
[84]
Edited by: RJ Nobel on 25/04/2009 21:00:23
Originally by: HawkBlade I'm inclined to believe that this idea about a Uni report is true... just not about scamming itself per se. However I could easily see doing a psychology report on "Betrayal Reactions" and using Eve as the means to do it.
Bingo. The scam? Not very good. The trolling of this thread to provoke further reactions? Pretty nifty.
I might have to score this RC 1, MD 0.
PS: Paying good ISK for tickets to round three!
|
Solisk
Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 21:34:00 -
[85]
Perhaps this is the starting of a trend where scammers attempt to make history by seeing who can scam the most insignificant amounts? :P
|
Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 22:04:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Solisk Perhaps this is the starting of a trend where scammers attempt to make history by seeing who can scam the most insignificant amounts?
For scamming in general, the record failure would have to be a loss for the would-be-miscreant. There must be a group of would-be contract-scammer/spammers who posted big-ISK contracts (paying non-trivial Broker Fees) but gave up their efforts before landing any victims.
For secondary market scamming, no examples jump to mind of people who are known to be out of pocket as a result of their scam attempts. Am I forgetting some example(s)?
|
Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 22:55:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Armoured C on 25/04/2009 22:56:50
Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/04/2009 19:39:25
Originally by: SencneS
1) Armoured C will never get public funding again because of this thread. His reptuation is shot.
You hear that Armoured C? You have to create another alt if you want to scam here again. And let that be a lesson to you!
i have a clear stand value on using alts i am proud of my character and use my main everywhere possible to show that i am not afriad to say what i mean. hiding behind a faceless alt is not part of me or what i believe since what i say i belieev in so much that i do use my main.
also that may be a little to you guys but 600 mill is alot for me i have never had a bill until know and it went along way for combat ships for the coming months with the new alliance campign.
IS BACK WITH A VENGENCE YARRRRRRR
|
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 23:01:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Armoured C Edited by: Armoured C on 25/04/2009 22:56:50
Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/04/2009 19:39:25
Originally by: SencneS
1) Armoured C will never get public funding again because of this thread. His reptuation is shot.
You hear that Armoured C? You have to create another alt if you want to scam here again. And let that be a lesson to you!
i have a clear stand value on using alts i am proud of my character and use my main everywhere possible to show that i am not afriad to say what i mean. hiding behind a faceless alt is not part of me or what i believe since what i say i belieev in so much that i do use my main.
also that may be a little to you guys but 600 mill is alot for me i have never had a bill until know and it went along way for combat ships for the coming months with the new alliance campign.
first... tard :P
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
|
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 23:03:00 -
[89]
you can still do the right thing and pay them back armoured... i would loan you the 600 million.... i believe you arent a scammer :D
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
|
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 23:19:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Ji Sama you can still do the right thing and pay them back armoured... i would loan you the 600 million.... i believe you arent a scammer :D
That would make a better story really..
- Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |