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Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 20:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
When people get to EVE Online, they see a scary reality. A world where you can increase efficiency in "skills" through neural uplinks but heaven forbid having your character learn the good ol' fashioned way is taboo and complete falseness.
So, I propose an action-enhanced training method where doing things temporarily increases skill training.
Doing certain actions will slightly increase a factor, which in this article I will call "Active Modifier". The name is not important, the idea I hope is. This factor adds up to a certain limit (debatable, perhaps 10 to 20%). That percentage would be added to your current skill training. Over time, this factor goes down.
Examples:
- Shooting your guns at a target will increase most the active modifier of Gunnery skills
- Shooting with specific guns increase specific skill active modifiers (i.e, Blaster Specialization, Small Hybrid Turret)
- Shooting at longer ranges increases the active modifier of Trajectory Analysis and Sharpshooter
- Shooting at moving targets increases Motion Prediction active modifier
- Mining asteroids increases the active modifier of Mining (and Mining Barges or Exhumers, if your using them)
- Increases the effectiveness of your fleet with your leadership skills increases the active modifier of the active skills
- Using a ship (either for it's designated purpose or improvised purpose) would probably do the same thing
- Having to armor tank will... well, I think you get the point now.
Of course, using them in different situations will increase active modifier faster, such as PVP, which will increase active modifier very fast.
Why? There are a few reasons
- To prevent the atrocity that is apathetic training of skills.
- It makes sense. Sure, neural uplinks do most of the work, but actively engaging in said activity should be beneficial.
- It would help noob players make sense of the world and actively engage in it, because an apathetic noob is the worst.
Please give open and honest, but only if constructive, feedback and criticism. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
636
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 20:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
It works in dust, but I'm worried in eve it would be exploitable.
get a new alt for free 30 days, shoot him a bunch. Or have him shoot you a bunch to up your skills. Or even more basic, you'll have corps that spend all day shooting each other. it would make the game super boring and grindy. As to keep up to date you'd have to sit there for hours and hours getting shot at.
Back before warp to zero we had to put at least 2 hours a week into making warp to zero bookmarks, we even got paid for it.
I love the idea, but I worry that in eve it's just not going to work. Unless someone can come up with a really new kind of way of gaining skill points that hasn't been seen before in other games, we're stuck with what we got. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1543
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 20:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Been suggested MANY times, it's still a horrible idea because it turns Eve into the grind many of us came to Eve to get away from, not to mention that it's extremely exploitable. |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 20:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Been suggested MANY times, it's still a horrible idea because it turns Eve into the grind many of us came to Eve to get away from, not to mention that it's extremely exploitable. I asked for constructive feedback and criticism. You and others seem to fail to explain how it would be bad in the detail required.
MotherMoon wrote:It works in dust, but I'm worried in eve it would be exploitable.
get a new alt for free 30 days, shoot him a bunch. Or have him shoot you a bunch to up your skills. Or even more basic, you'll have corps that spend all day shooting each other. it would make the game super boring and grindy. As to keep up to date you'd have to sit there for hours and hours getting shot at.
Back before warp to zero we had to put at least 2 hours a week into making warp to zero bookmarks, we even got paid for it.
I love the idea, but I worry that in eve it's just not going to work. Unless someone can come up with a really new kind of way of gaining skill points that hasn't been seen before in other games, we're stuck with what we got. Well, it's not like that at all. There would be systems in place to make sure it wasn't exploited, and it wouldn't require rigorous activity, just some. |
Hans Momaki
State War Academy Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Scumbags all over the EVE universe dislike an active way to gain SP, cause they would lose the benefit of their SP - pumped clones they are having at the moment if they decide to not grind at all.
Since EvE is made for scumbags, and scumbags are the only ones getting heard..
I bet you get the point ;)
I would love to see active training, but CCP just sucks at designing games for a larger scale of ppl. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1543
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Here, here's one of the more recent threads suggesting this exact same idea (which you didn't bother to search for): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100284&find=unread
As I said before, it's still a horrible idea.
Oh, and since you don't seem to know this yet, anything can be exploited. And in Eve, anything will be exploited. There is NO WAY to prevent such a thing from being exploited. I promise you that there are players out there which are smarter than you or CCP which can find a way to exploit it, there always are. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
636
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hans Momaki wrote:Scumbags all over the EVE universe dislike an active way to gain SP, cause they would lose the benefit of their SP - pumped clones they are having at the moment if they decide to not grind at all.
Since EvE is made for scumbags, and scumbags are the only ones getting heard..
I bet you get the point ;)
I would love to see active training, but CCP just sucks at designing games for a larger scale of ppl.
Dust has active skilling noob |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
636
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
What if there was 5 permanent attribute points for each type that can gained through in game achievements?
removing learning implants of course or reducing attributes but i don't like the ladder.
Then players would gain faster passive training time by playing the game. but with a cap so it isn't exploited.? |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Here, here's one of the more recent threads suggesting this exact same idea (which you didn't bother to search for): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100284&find=unreadAs I said before, it's still a horrible idea. Oh, and since you don't seem to know this yet, anything can be exploited. And in Eve, anything will be exploited. There is NO WAY to prevent such a thing from being exploited. I promise you that there are players out there which are smarter than you or CCP which can find a way to exploit it, there always are.
No. That idea is not the same. Has your mother ever slapped you for misreading something horribly? I wish she had. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1543
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
lol, it is effectively the same and the answer is that same. You're asking for more SP because you're doing something in game, which would be bad for the game. Please read that thread through if you'd like to learn why it's so horrible an idea. |
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Aleksander Erkkinen
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
If the maximum % boost stayed under 2%, and there were plenty of sanity checks to prevent farming velators, I couldn't object too loudly. 10%, however, is absofreakinglutely absurd. Thing is, I don't see this actually adding anything. It doesn't grow eve or fix one of it's longstanding issues. It does sound like yet another bid for more SP. I wouldn't want devs wasting their time on it. |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
mxzf wrote:lol, it is effectively the same and the answer is that same. You're asking for more SP because you're doing something in game, which would be bad for the game. Please read that thread through if you'd like to learn why it's so horrible an idea.
I was suggesting a system where your passive skillpoint gain would be increased for actively engaging in a related activity. His idea was to increase passive skillpoint gain while engaging in a related activity.
See the difference? |
Dr Prometheus
Gears of Construction Gears Confederation
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Use it for each ship you fly, the more it survives the more advantages the ship (and crew) gets, when its destroyed you loose it.
For example and maxed out "leveled" ship is has 25% bonus of everything. (Just a random something.) (Excluding supercaps ;))
It also makes the it easier to fit in the crew and crew numbers. Dude, where is my Charon? |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1543
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Felsusguy wrote:See the difference?
You added the word 'actively', which really doesn't mean anything in this context since both of them involve "engaging in a related activity" and engaging in something is, by its very nature, an action. |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Felsusguy wrote:See the difference? You added the word 'actively', which really doesn't mean anything in this context since both of them involve "engaging in a related activity" and engaging in something is, by its very nature, an action. You must be more of an idiot than I originally thought. My idea doesn't increase skillpoint gain WHILE doing something, it increases skillpoint gain FOR doing something, even after you stop. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
242
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 22:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
What you're not thinking about is that Eve already rewards players who play more than others.
While some people think that the primary goal in Eve is to train skills, I personally believe that our goal is isk.
The faster we earn isk, the sooner we get into the ships we want, or the more money we have to waist on getting blown up.
Someone who doesn't spend as much time grinding out isk as I do will be well behind me even if we have all the same skills.
We might both be able to fly a tengu, but not only am I going to be able to get into that tengu sooner that someone who plays less, but i'm also going to be able to dec it out with much more effective modules than that person is.
However, even though he may make less isk and take more time to be into that tengu than I am, Eve allows him to still be able to outperform me once he gets into that tengu by allowing the players to personally fit their ships.
I could have 3 billion into my tengu and he may have 1 billion into it, but if I have a crap fit, or he counters my fit, then he still stands a chance against me. |
Lin Gerie
Hole Perception Fade 2 Black
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 22:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
I disagree with EVERYONE saying this would turn eve into a grind fest. Only at the highest levels of play would this even have a chance of doing so (cap ship training and such). The skills simply don't take enough time for active training to be a problem, especially since this is just a boost to current skill training and not anything else.
The biggest obstacle at this point would be implementing it in a way that makes sense for every skill. It's relatively easy with gunnery or ship control but gets more difficult with refining or modules, science and other things. They would all need different things to help you level them up. Plus you would have to find a way that would help these skills without reducing their training time too much but still enough that it appears to help and probably would have to base it off the training multiplier as well.
For instance lets look at gunnery, which is actually still pretty complicated. If you wanted to make that an active skill that you can learn by firing. Okay, so if you're flying a cruiser and learning medium turrets which have a multiplier of 3x. So if you fire 1 medium turret at an enemy how many skill points do you get? What about if your shooting 8 medium turrets? Does it only count if you kill something? or does it count it based on damage done? What about shooting in vollies, does it count each volley?
What about skills that increase range or falloff? How would we work those?
Don't get me wrong I like the idea of something that you can actively do to make your character learn, but at this point it is just too difficult to implement on all skills. |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 22:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:What you're not thinking about is that Eve already rewards players who play more than others.
While some people think that the primary goal in Eve is to train skills, I personally believe that our goal is isk.
The faster we earn isk, the sooner we get into the ships we want, or the more money we have to waist on getting blown up.
Someone who doesn't spend as much time grinding out isk as I do will be well behind me even if we have all the same skills.
We might both be able to fly a tengu, but not only am I going to be able to get into that tengu sooner that someone who plays less, but i'm also going to be able to dec it out with much more effective modules than that person is.
However, even though he may make less isk and take more time to be into that tengu than I am, Eve allows him to still be able to outperform me once he gets into that tengu by allowing the players to personally fit their ships.
I could have 3 billion into my tengu and he may have 1 billion into it, but if I have a crap fit, or he counters my fit, then he still stands a chance against me. I know EVE rewards players that actually play, but still, it's somewhat silly the way skill training works if you take a step back and truly contemplate it. |
Thomas Gallant
Eyes In The Dark Lunar Industries Partnership
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 22:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
What about a skill "booster" effect? that way people could translate money into a slight temperary improvement in skill gain, say a +1 willpower or whatever skill booster? That would let people who want to invest extra money in skilling be able to do it beyond just the +5 implants. |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 22:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Thomas Gallant wrote:What about a skill "booster" effect? that way people could translate money into a slight temperary improvement in skill gain, say a +1 willpower or whatever skill booster? That would let people who want to invest extra money in skilling be able to do it beyond just the +5 implants. That kind of defeats the original purpose of the idea. To help noobs make sense of EVE. But that idea sounds... interesting. I'm sure it's already been suggested before, though. |
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Lin Gerie
Hole Perception Fade 2 Black
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 22:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Thomas Gallant wrote:What about a skill "booster" effect? that way people could translate money into a slight temperary improvement in skill gain, say a +1 willpower or whatever skill booster? That would let people who want to invest extra money in skilling be able to do it beyond just the +5 implants.
I was contemplating this when I wrote my post. But how would they be regulated? Clearly putting them in nulsec would be a good move as most people in null are afraid of getting pew pewed with expensive implants so they avoid using them for the most part. But if we tried to apply it actively to skills would they be a dropped item? Or would you get it for simply attempting or using things related to that skill? Like a bonus you receive if you do said activity so many times. But then what dictates the time the bonus is applied? |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
948
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 23:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Hilmar just rang to let me know he is going to remotely biomass the next person to post one of these proposals.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Katie Frost
Asgard. Exodus.
40
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 00:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Felsusguy wrote:Why? There are a few reasons
- To prevent the atrocity that is apathetic training of skills.
- It makes sense. Sure, neural uplinks do most of the work, but actively engaging in said activity should be beneficial.
- It would help noob players make sense of the world and actively engage in it, because an apathetic noob is the worst.
Your reasons as to why your proposals should be implemented are flawed and were deconstructed by arguments in this thread already, but here goes:
1) There is nothing wrong with the current skill-training system which takes the game away from 'grinding for SP' model that forces people to play the game (also a cause of internet gaming addiction). Now you mentioned that your booster would reward players "FOR" doing things but you also noted the benefit of doing these things will wear down over time... forcing the rest of the players to do those things again and again to get the said benefit. Therefore, you have again suggested a grind-based skill system, albeit less intense than the standard models, which is a terrible proposal for EVE.
2) It may make sense for skills to be acquired through practice but your proposal doesn't quite suggest that. If this was to make complete sense, then the more time I spend shooting at a stationary target (practice), the better I would get at the relevant skills. There are two ways to implement this - 1) Sit in front of my computer and play (time/practice) constantly shooting at stuff to get skills; or 2) Have a skillbook that my character spends real-time learning/practicing while I have the liberty of doing anything else really; now I know what you are thinking: "Have 2) but with 1) giving you some benefits as well?" - in that case see Point 1) above and also consider the below point:
3) The overall proposal does not benefit any one group over the other in any way, as your proposed system would be applicable to a 100M SP character as it would be to a noob. It does not help noobs any more than a more detailed tutorial would in teaching them aspects of the game.
So, the bottom line? What does your proposal achieve? - Grinding for SP benefit. - Opens a clear area of exploitation especially by more veteran players.
I hope that my argument was constructive and made sense - I look forward to a reply.
|
Im Super Gay
Hedion University Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 00:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Felsusguy wrote:Thomas Gallant wrote:What about a skill "booster" effect? that way people could translate money into a slight temperary improvement in skill gain, say a +1 willpower or whatever skill booster? That would let people who want to invest extra money in skilling be able to do it beyond just the +5 implants. That kind of defeats the original purpose of the idea. To help noobs make sense of EVE. But that idea sounds... interesting. I'm sure it's already been suggested before, though. $ > PLEX > ISK > SP. Take your pay to win and shove it. Eve is about everyone being on the same level sp training wise regardless of how active you are. This idea will never be implemented because it goes against Eve's core phlosiphy. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
Im Super Gay wrote:Felsusguy wrote:Thomas Gallant wrote:What about a skill "booster" effect? that way people could translate money into a slight temperary improvement in skill gain, say a +1 willpower or whatever skill booster? That would let people who want to invest extra money in skilling be able to do it beyond just the +5 implants. That kind of defeats the original purpose of the idea. To help noobs make sense of EVE. But that idea sounds... interesting. I'm sure it's already been suggested before, though. $ > PLEX > ISK > SP. Take your pay to win and shove it. Eve is about everyone being on the same level sp training wise regardless of how active you are. This idea will never be implemented because it goes against Eve's core phlosiphy.
While I agree with not buffing player training in low/null/wh space, you're a bit incorrect about players having the same training.
Players who are wealthy in real life have an advantage because they can go pvp, lose their implants, then simply buy a plex for new ones. Basically, this gives wealthy players an unfair advantage.
Though I agree this is a bad idea. |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Im Super Gay wrote:Felsusguy wrote:Thomas Gallant wrote:What about a skill "booster" effect? that way people could translate money into a slight temperary improvement in skill gain, say a +1 willpower or whatever skill booster? That would let people who want to invest extra money in skilling be able to do it beyond just the +5 implants. That kind of defeats the original purpose of the idea. To help noobs make sense of EVE. But that idea sounds... interesting. I'm sure it's already been suggested before, though. $ > PLEX > ISK > SP. Take your pay to win and shove it. Eve is about everyone being on the same level sp training wise regardless of how active you are. This idea will never be implemented because it goes against Eve's core phlosiphy. Oh really? What is EVE's core philosophy, by chance? Oh wait, I know.
Sandbox.
I don't see how such a thing would violate the sandbox. Oh, and you are also right about it not having to do anything with your activity. It has to do with either being active once or buying PLEX so that you can get fancy implants. Then, any activity would be considered bad because you risk losing said implants.
Case in point: Activity is bad, let's stop playing EVE and just pay for it monthly to get our skills up. Right?
Katie Frost wrote:Felsusguy wrote:Why? There are a few reasons
- To prevent the atrocity that is apathetic training of skills.
- It makes sense. Sure, neural uplinks do most of the work, but actively engaging in said activity should be beneficial.
- It would help noob players make sense of the world and actively engage in it, because an apathetic noob is the worst.
Your reasons as to why your proposals should be implemented are flawed and were deconstructed by arguments in this thread already, but here goes: 1) There is nothing wrong with the current skill-training system which takes the game away from 'grinding for SP' model that forces people to play the game (also a cause of internet gaming addiction). Now you mentioned that your booster would reward players "FOR" doing things but you also noted the benefit of doing these things will wear down over time... forcing the rest of the players to do those things again and again to get the said benefit. Therefore, you have again suggested a grind-based skill system, albeit less intense than the standard models, which is a terrible proposal for EVE. 2) It may make sense for skills to be acquired through practice but your proposal doesn't quite suggest that. If this was to make complete sense, then the more time I spend shooting at a stationary target (practice), the better I would get at the relevant skills. There are two ways to implement this - 1) Sit in front of my computer and play (time/practice) constantly shooting at stuff to get skills; or 2) Have a skillbook that my character spends real-time learning/practicing while I have the liberty of doing anything else really; now I know what you are thinking: "Have 2) but with 1) giving you some benefits as well?" - in that case see Point 1) above and also consider the below point: 3) The overall proposal does not benefit any one group over the other in any way, as your proposed system would be applicable to a 100M SP character as it would be to a noob. It does not help noobs any more than a more detailed tutorial would in teaching them aspects of the game. So, the bottom line? What does your proposal achieve? - Grinding for SP benefit. - Opens a clear area of exploitation especially by more veteran players. I hope that my argument was constructive and made sense - I look forward to a reply. Well, like I said earlier, systems could be put in place to reduce or remove grinding and exploitation. Things like diminishing returns and the like. |
Felsusguy
Try-Cycle Mining Industry
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ah, hell. It was a good idea in theory. Then again everything is, right?
Requesting a lock. |
Katie Frost
Asgard. Exodus.
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
Felsusguy wrote:Ah, hell. It was a good idea in theory. Then again everything is, right?
Requesting a lock.
It was an admirable attempt to suggest ways to promote character activity and adjust the skill training system, so don't feel bad about the proposal. However, ISK/Grind reward topics generally do get shot down very quickly in whatever form on these forums as they simply contradict the very core of EVE philosophy and why most of the EVE players chose to play it over games that do offer ISK/Grind rewards. |
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ISD LoneLynx
Community Communications Liaisons
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 07:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Locked as per the author's decision ISD LoneLynx Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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